BBKOL: DT Aaron Donald discussion

sound like a "can't miss" prospect. It would not hurt my feelings to have this kid in Giant blue.

get ready for incoming "all these Donald harpies are making me sick" posts.

I'll have to listen to this later but I'll say what I've been saying....if he's available (which I doubt at this point), the Giants should run to the podium as this guy makes the most sense to me hands down. I get the Oline arguments and the skill position arguments but they can find suitable Olineman/skill player later.....they absolutely can not find a player like Donald later, especially one that happens to fill a need along the Dline.

is not a sexy position but I'm warming up to the pick. The Giants would have 3 young prospects in Moore, Hankins and Donald to move forward with.

....keep Eli off his back?

What a simplistic thought. Foolish thinking. Pathetic contribution.

Beatty, Schwartz, Walton, Snee, and Pugh are supposed to do that.

he makes Donald sound like a cant miss ready to play prospect but yet he says if the vikings take him at 8 it would be a reach

In comment 11611122 jtduke said:

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he makes Donald sound like a cant miss ready to play prospect but yet he says if the vikings take him at 8 it would be a reach

Reach perhaps in the sense that in this uber loaded draft there is some absolute blue chippers at the top that will be there at 8 that would make Donald even with all his production not be BPA. There are guys without the slight size question mark that are projected to be dominant players up at 10 and higher picks.

In comment 11611107 Curtis in VA said:

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Beatty, Schwartz, Walton, Snee, and Pugh are supposed to do that.

Yup and if we don't think are line is fully fortified yet ,we can get a damn good one at 43, if we go Donald round 1.

Colin described Donald as the boom or bust player of the draft. He said he could be something special or find that he cant handle much larger interior linemen than he is used to playing. After some spotty draft performances, do you think that Reese will go for a boom or bust player?

I've had the same feeling.
Swing for greatness = Donald
Play it safe = Martin

No TE and 1 RB on the roster and OL would help as well if Lewan falls to us he will be the pick.

In comment 11611200 Samiam said:

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Colin described Donald as the boom or bust player of the draft. He said he could be something special or find that he cant handle much larger interior linemen than he is used to playing. After some spotty draft performances, do you think that Reese will go for a boom or bust player?

Donald has played some good lineman and has dominated many of them. The inidicators are there that his talent WILL translate bigtime to the next level.

if at 12, evans, donald and martin are all still on the board.

and i think they could be if a few desperate teams line up for "franchise" QBs.

(and indulge me for a second for ignoring ebron or lewan - both of whom i think by then will be acknowledged as overrated)

each of the three above is mega talented and would be great choices independently. but a choice for any of them would mean the giants would be pursuing one of three separate strategies: focus the next year on having an explosive receiving core, a disruptive defense or concentrate on protecting eli.

certainly there are lots of other draft picks that could plug a hole here or there. and the draft is deeper than usual. but the 1 sends a pretty powerful signal.

and as of today, i honestly have no idea which way they'd go.

To the interview, even the guy that watched him and loved him all season with the Panthers says he should slot in the draft at about 25, yet we have some here who want to act like he would be a steal at 12, he is not, nor is he a sure shot prospect, I want to like the guy, but at 12 I am very nervous about him. He is small, and NOBODY can be certain his talent will translate to the NFL, NOBODY. Martin from Notre Dame handled him one on one. If we are thinking about Donald, then trade down, if he is gone, somebody else will be there that is worth it, otherwise you must look at Martin, Ebron, Lewan, and Evans as much better value at 12, and one of them will be there.

In comment 11611341 PaulN said:

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To the interview, even the guy that watched him and loved him all season with the Panthers says he should slot in the draft at about 25, yet we have some here who want to act like he would be a steal at 12, he is not, nor is he a sure shot prospect, I want to like the guy, but at 12 I am very nervous about him. He is small, and NOBODY can be certain his talent will translate to the NFL, NOBODY. Martin from Notre Dame handled him one on one. If we are thinking about Donald, then trade down, if he is gone, somebody else will be there that is worth it, otherwise you must look at Martin, Ebron, Lewan, and Evans as much better value at 12, and one of them will be there.

You can cherry pick any great talent. When the sample size is large enough, there will be a games here and there where they don't dominate every snap. No player now matter how great dominates every snap. it's the frequency that they dominate. And at DT the frequency at which Donald dominated (and also versus guys who project to be good NFl players) was at a very,very high level.

So the prospect has the talent to either:

1. Dominate the NFL
2. Get his ass kicked

Is that it? There is no other way for him to perform in the NFL?

That's a joke.

In comment 11611378 KWALL said:

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So the prospect has the talent to either: 1. Dominate the NFL 2. Get his ass kicked Is that it? There is no other way for him to perform in the NFL? That's a joke.

if Donald showed on tape that he got frequently engulfed or shut down vs better Olinemen I'd be concerned.

He dominated them with a high enough frequency that it is pretty clear (at least to me) he's is going to do very well in the NFL.At 6' 5/8 and 285..that is very stout for that height. He is a bull with cat like quickness. His quickness,shoirt area burst will more than make up for his lack of height.

Not one NFL guard, you want to think he is the pick go ahead, but I doubt, and highly doubt he will be, only in a trade down, once he is not a Giant, I have no interest in him. He is the BBI darling this year, there have been plenty, and MANY of them have been BUSTS. The reason, THERE IS NO GUARENTEE, but when you are picking at 12, you better not miss, and for that reason, I would not be so certain about this guy, he simply is too small for there to be any certainty with him. He may get dominated on this level, we just don't know. I am OK trading down and seeing how that plays out and then possibly picking Donald, but even his supporters are not willing to say he is an upper first round talent, so what does that tell you? It tells me to beware.

Do not work in the NFL, he has won most battles in the NFL with that first move, that will not work up here. He does have a low center of gravity, and that may help him a lot, but NOTHING in any tape proves ANYTHING at all. It proved he can dominate at his level he was playing, nothing more then that. When trying to figure out if it translates, size would be a huge factor, quickness also, he wins on one, and loses on another. I think the low center of gravity helps to offset his size though. I like him, but I am not so sure I like him at 12.

Is a great way to cover your ass, we heard it with JPP also, it is nothing more then a copout.

In comment 11611492 PaulN said:

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Do not work in the NFL, he has won most battles in the NFL with that first move, that will not work up here. He does have a low center of gravity, and that may help him a lot, but NOTHING in any tape proves ANYTHING at all. It proved he can dominate at his level he was playing, nothing more then that. When trying to figure out if it translates, size would be a huge factor, quickness also, he wins on one, and loses on another. I think the low center of gravity helps to offset his size though. I like him, but I am not so sure I like him at 12.

I think the production is at such an amazing level that you can't ignore it simply becuase he is 6' 5/8 tall. if he wasn't strong or built well, I'd be more concerned.

"The most dominating player I have ever seen"...."he dominated despite the fact that the Pittsburg defense had no one...and the fact that everyone on earth know the had to stop...teams still couldn't stop Donald"...I have never been more confident in a player in my life"...This sounds like an LT evaluation....

of course he hasn't dominated an NFL guard. He hasn't played any yet.

We've seen him have very, very productive games going up against much heavier all-american type players. Going up against top-tier college offensive talent.

From what I've seen, and I've watched all the snaps on him by now, not just the highlights, he hasn't been handled one on one by anybody. I've seen a couple of snaps against an all-american tackle that is likely to be a top draft pick next year where he didn't make much progress. I've also seen him beat that same tackle using power AND speed.

I haven't seen anything that says he can be pushed around regardless of who he's going up against.

He even has held up against the point of attack by >650+ lbs of all-american and all-conference type double-teams and barely given an inch, even if they negated his ability to get pressure.

Nobody has shown me an instance yet of him being dominated or pushed around.

at his size, is a tall order. Donald may just get worn down physically as the game progresses. Very few can pull it off, that makes him a gamble, no matter the hype.

that's the thing. Is he a specialist? Will he be used only in pass rushing, 3rd down situations? Maybe at this level teams will use him as a pass rush and not really rotate him in on 1st and 2nd down. I think that's an interesting thing. How will teams utilize him?

an impact player that teams will have to gameplan for. That's not something that can be said for any of the other guys who might be available for us at 12.

The offensive linemen available at 12 would hopefully allow us to pass block for Eli and open up more holes in the running game, but neither Lewan nor Martin are Orlando Pace/Jonathon Ogden superstars. Were Greg Robinson to fall to 12, he might be that guy eventually, and I'd be content to take him over Donald. But at this point Donald is my guy at 12, and I'm hoping that we can get a good OL in Rd. 2.

And you are foolish and pathetic for not realizing that the foundation of this team has always been the offensive line and that its demise is the number one reason why we are a weak organization at the current moment.

a combination of a top OL that can let us run the ball, along with a top front 7 on defense that stops the run and can rush the QB.

We've lost Tuck and Joseph, haven't added a pass-rushing DE, and are very thin at both DE and DT. Getting a pass rusher from the DT position could make a big difference for our defense, especially as our DEs are becoming neutralized more often by the pistol and short QB drops.

then we shouldnt draft anyone.. because NO ONE in the draft has done ANYTHING against the NFL..

All those OL guys you want drafted havent blocked ONE NFL defensive player..

None of those DB have covered ONE NFL receiver..

No WR has gone against any NFL Corner..

No QB has seen an NFL Defense..

No TE has blocked an NFL Defensive Lineman or gone against an NFL CB/LB or S..

I mean that is truly an absolutely ridiculous argument...

In comment 11611721 yatqb said:

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a combination of a top OL that can let us run the ball, along with a top front 7 on defense that stops the run and can rush the QB. We've lost Tuck and Joseph, haven't added a pass-rushing DE, and are very thin at both DE and DT. Getting a pass rusher from the DT position could make a big difference for our defense, especially as our DEs are becoming neutralized more often by the pistol and short QB drops.

And that's something Dorgan talked about the height of Donald. Quick drops and getting rid of the ball you need taller DTs to get their hands up to knock the ball down. Remember Tom brady and what he said in Mic'd up for the SB?

It's like throwing in a forest.. Their arms are like ::shakes head:: as he sits next to Welker.

I would think our DTs would be taller to knock passes down especially if teams are going quick game to neutralize our pass rush. DT at this point is a luxury. If any of the OL, WR, or TE is available in the first round, at 12, I'd draft them.

We are on the clock so to speak to get this offense very good.

Here when personnel on our offense contract expires

WR

Cruz - 2016
RR- 2015
JJ - 2014
MM - 2014

RB

Wilson -2015

TE

AR-2015

Everyone else 2014



Not to mention Eli's contract expires in 2 years and our coaches contracts are basically 1 year deals. I don't think people realize how urgent we have to be in fixing this offense.

If the offense and then team ends up with a shitty year. Our whole staff can get fired. If that happens, when Elis contract expires he will be 35 years old. No way we'd re-sign him.

So this draft is very important. It's freaking key to fixing this offense as quick as possible.

.

In comment 11611087 Wonderphil11 said:

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get ready for incoming "all these Donald harpies are making me sick" posts. I'll have to listen to this later but I'll say what I've been saying....if he's available (which I doubt at this point), the Giants should run to the podium as this guy makes the most sense to me hands down. I get the Oline arguments and the skill position arguments but they can find suitable Olineman/skill player later.....they absolutely can not find a player like Donald later, especially one that happens to fill a need along the Dline.

Just for the record Donald is the FIRST DT I have ever pined for in the first round for the Giants. Normally I hate DTs in the first due to bust rate and learning curve. Thats how special I think this kid.is.

Lewan/Martin-Schwartz-Walton-Snee-Pugh

With Beatty backing up. That would be a massive improvement

In comment 11611746 AnishPatel said:

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In comment 11611721 yatqb said: Quote: a combination of a top OL that can let us run the ball, along with a top front 7 on defense that stops the run and can rush the QB. We've lost Tuck and Joseph, haven't added a pass-rushing DE, and are very thin at both DE and DT. Getting a pass rusher from the DT position could make a big difference for our defense, especially as our DEs are becoming neutralized more often by the pistol and short QB drops. And that's something Dorgan talked about the height of Donald. Quick drops and getting rid of the ball you need taller DTs to get their hands up to knock the ball down. Remember Tom brady and what he said in Mic'd up for the SB? It's like throwing in a forest.. Their arms are like ::shakes head:: as he sits next to Welker. I would think our DTs would be taller to knock passes down especially if teams are going quick game to neutralize our pass rush. DT at this point is a luxury. If any of the OL, WR, or TE is available in the first round, at 12, I'd draft them. We are on the clock so to speak to get this offense very good. Here when personnel on our offense contract expires WR Cruz - 2016 RR- 2015 JJ - 2014 MM - 2014 RB Wilson -2015 TE AR-2015 Everyone else 2014 Not to mention Eli's contract expires in 2 years and our coaches contracts are basically 1 year deals. I don't think people realize how urgent we have to be in fixing this offense. If the offense and then team ends up with a shitty year. Our whole staff can get fired. If that happens, when Elis contract expires he will be 35 years old. No way we'd re-sign him. So this draft is very important. It's freaking key to fixing this offense as quick as possible.

All good points but when a player is really special you make exceptions. The question is do the Giants view him as special enough to not worry about the height they like so much in their DTs.

All good points but when a player is really special you make exceptions. The question is do the Giants view him as special enough to not worry about the height they like so much in their DTs.


If he is that special he will be long gone. So I wouldn't worry about that.

Also, I wouldn't make any exceptions under the conditions above in the previous post of mine. Too much at stake. Our whole future depends on this. If we fuck this up, like I said we may be in for massive changes. We messed up drafting since Ross came aboard. It's time this FO gets a kick in the ass to rebuild this offense with a sense of urgency never seen before. If not and we fail, then that may impact our future big time.

The fact we didn't extend Eli says a lot. It would seem we are going to play out his contract and let him be 35. He basically has and the offense as a whole, to be fair, as 1 year. In that year, we have to be good. If we suck, TC and the staff gets fired, and Eli goes in the contract year at age 34. I highly doubt we re-sign him.

In the mean time, those are the contract situations for the guys on offense. We are on the edge of massive changes to our offensive personnel AND coaching staff. If things go south big time, then the coaches are in deep shit.

With that said, you go balls out to upgrade the offensive personnel. There is no 2 or 3 year rebuild. It's this upcoming year OR else..A first round DT is a damn luxury at this point. But hey, if he is that special or as you put it, once in a decade then he will be gone. So I guess I don't have to worry.. : )

There have been MANY many guys that get lost in the shuffle so to speak . If you look at draft history their are a ton of guys picked 10-20 that end up better than anyone in the top 10.

I think Donald may 'drop' a bit b/c people will downgrade him due to the height issue (and they will regret it for years to come).

at a premium position that is a still a need like DT, you do it.

Rounds 2-4 can be exclusively offense thereafter.

I love your argument though and it makes sense. The Giants could easily be thinking more along your line of though than mine. I just think Aaron is a very special talent that will be clear BPA when we pick . And if that is the case , it should alter our 'Plan A' strategy just a bit.

Do better than that, Reese..

I believe we are on that edge of change. A bad season or longer years in rebuilding can push us over that edge where change occurs in a big time fashion.

I wouldn't restructure or extend Eli and I am glad we haven't touched it either. Let the life of the contract play through and let's see where Eli and the whole offense is. We could have a bad year and change everything.

Donald very may be gone. I doubt he stays on the board to be honest. I think it's our duty to add personnel to surround Eli. That would be piss poor if we let our offense atrophy. RR is a 2015 contract, and everyone else is on a contract year. Just look...Our contracts are set up for major change. Right now he seems like everyone, including the coaching staff, is on a wait and see if the ship sinks or gets moving again.

That's why this is the most exciting off season in a long time.

with Donald is I don't think he's a good fit for our defense. We're not an penetrating attacking defense. We're more about gap control. Donald's strength is to simply not worry about a gap and attack the pocket. The sound of that excites the average sports fan, but you have to draft players that fit your scheme.

In comment 11611946 Eric from BBI said:

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with Donald is I don't think he's a good fit for our defense. We're not an penetrating attacking defense. We're more about gap control. Donald's strength is to simply not worry about a gap and attack the pocket. The sound of that excites the average sports fan, but you have to draft players that fit your scheme.

True however shouldnt a good coach also adapt the scheme to fit the players he has available.. I dont think the Giants will draft Donald.. they have to many offensive issues to address.. OL, WR, TE and even RB..

Make your scheme fit your players..

#simplify

Change your entire scheme because of one player? Maybe if he was Lawrence Taylor.

Defenses that don't worry about gap control can look great on highlight films, but get gouged the rest of the game.

Donald intrigues me because he is so damn quick (like Randle who used to play for the Vikings who was also a smaller guy). But man, if he doesn't beat his man with quickness, he's going to get steamrolled.

then he can get after it.

Are we that unsure of the middle?

on Fewell can adapt to a player like Donald. Plus I wouldn't worry about our staff. Everyone is on a 1 year deal basically. It's not like Fewell is a long term DC here. If shit hits the fan, the staff will be fired..all of them. I have to think if we did draft Donald, that they'd do stuff to make him useful.

In comment 11611968 Eric from BBI said:

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Change your entire scheme because of one player? Maybe if he was Lawrence Taylor. Defenses that don't worry about gap control can look great on highlight films, but get gouged the rest of the game. Donald intrigues me because he is so damn quick (like Randle who used to play for the Vikings who was also a smaller guy). But man, if he doesn't beat his man with quickness, he's going to get steamrolled.

I won't say that Donald won't get pushed back by bigger ol's, but he's pretty strong (2nd at his position in the combine with 35 reps at 225) and a lower center of gravity might help. Also, he doesn't look like he's being pushed around much on tape.

Defenses won't change their schemes for him, but they will have to account for him.

Donald is part of the middle.

Everyone has to be on the same page on defense. You just can't freelance or you are going to leave a huge hole.

Now that said, if Donald is another John Randle, then it is very tempting to team him with Johnathan Hankins.

I wouldn't call this a boom-or-bust type of pick but it certainly is a bit risky. There are not a lot of 285 pound all-star defensive tackles.

I read or heard an interview that Donald has been seriously lifting since he was 13.. that means he should be pretty darn strong.. people tend to focus on his quickness... but he is really strong and he uses his hands really really well..

I think people also need to realize that there was NO ONE but him on the Pitt DL.. teams schemed to stop him. and couldnt...

but that being said... I think the Giants are going OL or WR in round one..

also, if the Giants draft him, it means they are breaking with long established historical tendencies. Since 1979, the Giants have been a size team. They tend to really discount guys who do meet their size preferences (right or wrong).

The last time they did that that I can remember...they really got burned...Greg Mark from Miami.