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Donald vs. Lewan vs. Martin.

yatqb : 4/12/2014 11:37 am
I'm thinking of how these players stack up in terms of their potential for star vs. bust.

To me, Martin is the safest of those picks, as he'll likely be at least a competent starter over his career, and seems to me to be able to play a multitude of positions (incuding LT) at least effectively. But both Lewan and Donald may have higher ceilings.

I'd argue that Lewan's best position is RT, and for him to be considered a high ceiling pick at 12 he'd have to ultimately become a dominant LT. I think that's possible, but he's gotta develop much better technique and a better slide step to become that, because at present he relies on those long arms too much in redirecting DEs, and is out of balance and leaning when pass blocking quite a bit.

Donald seems to me to have a very high ceiling, and a medium floor. I THINK he'll be a dominant pass rusher from the DT position from day one, but if teams can blow him out in the running game (I don't see it on tape, but some here are convinced of it) then he's a liability on certain plays. But imo he can also swing to DE on some downs, where he'd likely play both the run and pass very effectively. His speed and strength off the edge would be tough to overcome, as would his ability to win one on one battles in the running game. He just sheds guys on those plays, effortlessly throwing them aside to get one on one with the ballcarrier. I'm not suggesting that Donald should play much (or necessarily any) DE, but am addressing fears that he couldn't last as a DT. I think he'll dominate there, but were that not the case I think he could become a damn fine DE in the mold of guys like Mathis and Freeney.

Tough choices for the Giants if all are there at 12, since we badly need to improve both lines.

donald  
RAIN : 4/12/2014 11:47 am : link
from most projections will be a late first. He's not a pure speed rusher.. so mathis and Freeney are off in the comparison. He's John Randle if he's anything. Do you really see the Giants picking a 6'0 DT? I don't think its happening, despite the talent.

That said if it comes down to Martin vs Lewan.. Lewan is the pick. He's a OLT that has some holes in his game, but he's a bright guy that unless he really is a jerk.. he's better than Martin.
most experts feel Lewan has a higher grade then last year's top picks  
George from PA : 4/12/2014 12:04 pm : link
And undersized DT have a high bust rate.....with that said...if Donald is the next Randle....choice would be easy......especially if OL is as deep as expected
Martin  
bigblueheadache : 4/12/2014 12:12 pm : link
Donald is too small and the odds are against him. Lewan is a loose cannon and not the typical Giants player. I'd take Martin: hard-working, tough, smart, and physically-gifted. Not the monster Lewan is, but I'd rather take the sure-thing.
Lewan  
Dankbeerman : 4/12/2014 12:23 pm : link
Is the one I would worry would not make it to 12. Donald and Martin I feel will be there.

I would rate it as in if Lewan is there at 12 he fell to us. if Donald is the pick he went around his slot and if we take Martin it is a bit of a reach for a position of need.

From a pure draft the best player it would be lewan.
RAIN, my view of Danald at DE is that the combination of speed  
yatqb : 4/12/2014 12:37 pm : link
AND strength he brings would allow him to work OTs over and bring a pass rush comparable to Freeney and Mathis.
RE: donald  
BigBlueShock : 4/12/2014 12:44 pm : link
In comment 11617014 RAIN said:
Quote:
from most projections will be a late first. He's not a pure speed rusher.. so mathis and Freeney are off in the comparison. He's John Randle if he's anything. Do you really see the Giants picking a 6'0 DT? I don't think its happening, despite the talent.

That said if it comes down to Martin vs Lewan.. Lewan is the pick. He's a OLT that has some holes in his game, but he's a bright guy that unless he really is a jerk.. he's better than Martin.

Perhaps there's some that I've missed, but I just checked about 30 different mocks and the lowest I've seen Donald go is 16. So I'm not sure where the heck you get the idea that Donald "most projections will be a late 1st". That's just being misinformed. And the fact that he's only 6'0" has absolutely zero bearing on whether the Giants take him or not. The weight may or may not be an issue, but his height is a non issue
No DT...  
GiantSince1970 : 4/12/2014 12:45 pm : link
... is a speed rusher...
Big blue shock...  
RAIN : 4/12/2014 1:19 pm : link
I guess I've been watching the nfl network too much.

Dan Jeremiah and Mayock are the guys I listen too on this. To cross check another guy I respect is Nolan Nawrocki, formerly of Pro Football weekly. He's got Donald with a fourth round grade.

Bottom line, he's a different player and he's going to have someone fall in love to take him that high. When have the Giants drafted a 285 lb DT? I'm rooting for him.. but if you can get him in the second, why fight it?
nfl.com - ( New Window )
RE: No DT...  
yatqb : 4/12/2014 1:24 pm : link
In comment 11617061 GiantSince1970 said:
Quote:
... is a speed rusher...


A guy who runs a 4.65 at 285 pounds has speed to burn. A guy who had a 1.59 10-yard split, which was faster than any of the top LBs, has speed to burn. A guy with his tremendous first step has speed to beat OTs routinely, and when you pair that speed (which forces OTs to get off balance as they get into their sets) with the strength that I mentioned, he can defeat those OTs in multiple ways and close quickly on the QB.
Anyone in the player evaluation world  
BigBlueShock : 4/12/2014 1:41 pm : link
that has watched Donald play the game of football, and still has him as a 4th rounder, needs to quit their job immediately. That's just not even realistic. I would advise you to stop following that guy. Seriously.
Rain....the 4th round projection from Nawrocki  
jayg5 : 4/12/2014 1:43 pm : link
Is old. In his book published by Triumph Books he has Donald as a first rounder.
By the way  
BigBlueShock : 4/12/2014 1:45 pm : link
Warren Sapp was 284 lbs. when he was drafted
RE: RE: No DT...  
ImaGiant86 : 4/12/2014 1:47 pm : link
In comment 11617084 yatqb said:
Quote:
In comment 11617061 GiantSince1970 said:


Quote:


... is a speed rusher...



A guy who runs a 4.65 at 285 pounds has speed to burn. A guy who had a 1.59 10-yard split, which was faster than any of the top LBs, has speed to burn. A guy with his tremendous first step has speed to beat OTs routinely, and when you pair that speed (which forces OTs to get off balance as they get into their sets) with the strength that I mentioned, he can defeat those OTs in multiple ways and close quickly on the QB.


I love Donald but he doesn't have the flexibility to be an effective edge rusher on a consistent basis.

I have no clue how you came to the Mathis / Freeney comparison; lost me on that one.
Lots of Donald misinformation on this thread  
mrvax : 4/12/2014 2:03 pm : link
Tuck weighed less than Donald and he played DT quite a bit.
Donald was the most productive college defender last year. He played significantly better than Clowney.

"No DT is a speed rusher."
LOL. Re-watch Donald's college highlights easily found on YouTube.

Whatever team that gets Donald will be overjoyed.
Donald at 285  
RAIN : 4/12/2014 2:33 pm : link
might fit some teams. I'm not sure what to do with him. I've watched the tape and I see someone that is very good, stout, and can rush the passer. The fear for some teams I'm sure (me included) is that he's maxed out at 285, and when put against NFL guards he's going to get washed out inside making him a situational pass rusher (a two down player).

Tuck was an end shifted inside on obvious passing downs.. so isn't the greatest argument to make.

I don't have him as fourth rounder. I have him in the late first/early second where he can get his feet wet as situational guy. Asking him to stop the run early may be an assumption that doesn't pay out.

Interesting how the thread has become a commentary on Donald.  
yatqb : 4/12/2014 2:43 pm : link
He's sure a lightening rod.

I'm curious about opinions on Lewan and Martin in terms of upside and floor.
I believe that Lewan has the best potential of hose three  
BlueManFu : 4/12/2014 2:58 pm : link
He'd be the BPA if all three were available at #12, and that's pretty much the consensus of people who are paid to evaluate this stuff.

I'd feel really good about our OL upgrade overall if they could plug in a talent and a body like Lewan at LT. He would complete the puzzle for the OL.
So you'd plug him in at LT?  
yatqb : 4/12/2014 3:06 pm : link
What would you do with Beatty. RT? Bench?

I could see us going with Lewan at RT and Pugh at LG if Snee can't make it, but if Snee is in the lineup and Lewan starts that likely means that Beatty sits.

My concerns with Lewan is that he's not a prototypical RT. He's not a huge guy who can really dominate as a drive blocker. And you can get a RT later on; guys like Moses, Kouandjio or James, for example. So he'd ideally play LT (which he may not be ready for) and then Beatty has to sit. It would be very quick for the Giants to give up on Beatty considering their typical patience with their veterans.
great post yat  
GmenDynasty : 4/12/2014 3:14 pm : link


Martin is the real deal and will be a solid day 1 starter with great versatility (which is something the Giants love in their OL). There is something to be said about that. IMO though he doesn't have the upside of some players he is probably one of the safest picks in the entire draft and 2nd safest OL under Matthews.

With all that said, there are picks at more premium positions like a pass rushing DT in Donald whose ceiling is so much higher.

Perhaps the biggest key to this is realizing we are in a uniquely deep draft overall and it also very deep in potential plug and play lineman. The likelihood we get one at 43 is very high.

Its kind of like asking do you want a cross between Geno Atkins and John Randle for your first pick and STILL likely get a good starter for the OL at 43 or another Justin Pugh round 1?

So yeah I also think Donalds floor is really high too. He has everything we look for in a player on the DL including the versatility to play DE at a high level. We rotated Canty,Cullen Jenkins,Tuck and even JPP to DT. We love guys that are interchangeable on the line. Donald projects to do that and do that well. The only thing he doesn't have is prototypical height. But when someone's production is so damn amazing sometimes you have to ignore a shortcoming.

On to Lewan: He has questionable character. His film while very good it isn't quite to the level of his combine. I like him alot and I think the upside is higher than Martin but I also think the risk here is higher too. Also I think he can be a good LT but I am not as confident of his LT ability as I would be with Matthews or Robinson.

So in Summary not only do I think Donald is clear cut BPA but I also think he is a pretty safe bet DESPITE his size. Every other item on the checklist is so positive I think he has so many other things that will compensate for the height.
I don't think that you hold back from an overall Top 10 talent  
BlueManFu : 4/12/2014 3:14 pm : link
Because of Beatty, especially with the ugly injury- I just don't think you can count on him at all. If the does make it back to starter material, then he's insurance for when Snee inevitably breaks down. 1st half of he season Snee will give it a go and Beatty won't be ready...then Snee taps out after week 10 and Beatty steps up. Obviously just speculating, but I'd say the Giants can't count on Beatty and Snee to be both full year starters- that would not be a wise bet.
Actually  
PaulN : 4/12/2014 3:16 pm : link
I think Donald and Martin will be there when the Giants pick, I don't think Lewan will be, but I think both Donald and martin are a better pick then Lewan. I am not so sure that Donald will be good on this level against the run, he is small, BUT, he is quick and has a great leverage advantage. Jim Burt was very good and he was just as small as Donald, and he was not nearly as quick, he played the nose though. I don't think the Giants will pick either player though, I think the Giants will grab either Evans or Ebron.

As far as the comparisons, I think Martin is the safest pick out of the three, I think Donald may have the highest ceiling though, and could be a star, I also think he could be a bust though, people just do not seem to understand how hard it is to evaluate a player to jump from college to the pro's at defensive tackle, it is a huge jump. I like Donald, but I do have some fear about him as a pro, I also think he could be a star. I am confident that martin will be a good pro, maybe even pro bowl caliber. Lewan is a player I would not touch, his attitude is a real problem, we want team guys, not head cases, if he works hard, which is another question about him, he could become a very good left tackle, but do you take a chance, I wouldn't.
RE: Actually  
GmenDynasty : 4/12/2014 3:20 pm : link
In comment 11617172 PaulN said:
Quote:
I think Donald and Martin will be there when the Giants pick, I don't think Lewan will be, but I think both Donald and martin are a better pick then Lewan. I am not so sure that Donald will be good on this level against the run, he is small, BUT, he is quick and has a great leverage advantage. Jim Burt was very good and he was just as small as Donald, and he was not nearly as quick, he played the nose though. I don't think the Giants will pick either player though, I think the Giants will grab either Evans or Ebron.

As far as the comparisons, I think Martin is the safest pick out of the three, I think Donald may have the highest ceiling though, and could be a star, I also think he could be a bust though, people just do not seem to understand how hard it is to evaluate a player to jump from college to the pro's at defensive tackle, it is a huge jump. I like Donald, but I do have some fear about him as a pro, I also think he could be a star. I am confident that martin will be a good pro, maybe even pro bowl caliber. Lewan is a player I would not touch, his attitude is a real problem, we want team guys, not head cases, if he works hard, which is another question about him, he could become a very good left tackle, but do you take a chance, I wouldn't.


Paulie if finally coming around on Donald.Its about time ;)
So, BMF, after half a season you plug Lewan in at OT and  
yatqb : 4/12/2014 3:20 pm : link
do what? Move Pugh to RG? Or to LG with Schwartz moving over to RG? Interesting; maybe a bit more of a shift than they'd like in midstream, but possible, I guess.
Week 1 OL  
BlueManFu : 4/12/2014 3:24 pm : link
Lewan - Schwartz - Walton - Snee - Pugh

(6th man / not ready - Beatty)
So Beatty moves in at RT after game 10  
yatqb : 4/12/2014 3:28 pm : link
with Puch moving inside somewhere? Possible.

But I'm thinking that Beatty should be ready before training camp. This was a broken bone, not an ACL or something requiring a very long rehab, unless I've missed something.

Of course with he Giants' medical staff who the heck knows what's going on with their injured guys.
I'd  
AcidTest : 4/12/2014 4:40 pm : link
take Donald. The production is too great. I hope the Giants feel the same, but he doesn't really fit what their looking for in a DT. The good news is that they took Pugh last year despite his "short" arms because of his production. You have to hope they think the same way about Donald.

I would take Martin over Lewan.
very strange because I have ranted in favor of DL centric  
alligatorpie : 4/12/2014 4:58 pm : link
defensive thinking for many years, but I still see Donald as a mystery.

Part of this is that I am not sure Fewell would know what to do with him, in that light then, not totally sold that Donald can hold up to power running -towards him- within a vanilla DL scheme, and partly because I think this team needs dominant not just good OL play and ASAP.

It will certainly be a fun draft day, though.
The only certainty of draft day  
BigBlueShock : 4/12/2014 5:08 pm : link
is that no matter who is drafted, half of BBI will make logging in to this site unbearable. Every single player has a contingency that absolutely hates them on this site, and these people will not be able to take a wait and see approach. It will be crying, bitching, moaning, and complaining from someone. That much we know for sure.

I'd like to think that we could all take a wait and see approach, but that won't happen.
Donald is not a late round projection.  
wgenesis123 : 4/12/2014 5:30 pm : link
He is all over the map. The combination of his top ten talent with his height disadvantage has the pundits confused as to where he fits in.He could surprise and go top ten, he could fall to the Giants, but at worse I doubt that he gets past Chicago and Dallas.
Grab Lewan  
PatersonPlank : 4/12/2014 5:37 pm : link
Lewan and Pugh become the bookends for the next 5 years (either one at RT or LT, I don't care which). Coughlin has already said they'd consider Pugh for LT, but I believe he stays at T. Beatty is a backup, and in a pinch we could try to make him into a G or C. I know a lot of people on here don't think thats possible, but why not. Have Beatty back up a lot of different positions.

This is a much stronger line with Pugh-Shwartz-Walton-Snee-Lewan (or switch Lewan and Pugh).
Really want Donald  
Marty866b : 4/12/2014 6:10 pm : link
But Martin has NY Giant written all over him. I will be surprised if he is not our #1 pick.Our o-line is still in disarray and Martin can play anywhere that he is needed. Sometimes you have to go with just what makes the most sense.
Donald  
TMS : 4/12/2014 7:18 pm : link
is a gamble because of his size and Martin is versatile OL. Neither should be drafted at the #12 spot if Lewan or Evans is still on the board. A game changing LT or WR is more valuable and Reese knows that.
RE: Donald  
Dan in the Springs : 4/12/2014 7:20 pm : link
In comment 11617425 TMS said:
Quote:
is a gamble because of his size and Martin is versatile OL. Neither should be drafted at the #12 spot if Lewan or Evans is still on the board. A game changing LT or WR is more valuable and Reese knows that.


Right, because you can't win a SB with David Diehl as your left tackle, even if you have a good pass rush.
Seems to be resevations regarding  
jLefty : 4/12/2014 7:32 pm : link
all three.



















































all three. Martin has a limited ceiling. Lewan would make a better RT. And Donald may not be tough against the run - according to this interesting post.










Yatqb,  
AnishPatel : 4/12/2014 7:45 pm : link
In comment 11617134 yatqb said:
Quote:
He's sure a lightening rod.

I'm curious about opinions on Lewan and Martin in terms of upside and floor.


This surprises you? Donald has a cult following. Say his name and his followers come out, robes wearing, chanting his name. On the other hand, there are people who think he won't be good. So I do agree he is a lightning rod.
No doubt, Anish. But I have the same doubts about Lewan,  
yatqb : 4/12/2014 8:51 pm : link
who to my mind is more highly rated than he deserves. Where did Solder go in the draft? 17th? To me Lewan's feet aren't as good as his, yet people are talking about him like he's a solid top 10 pick in a great draft. And this when he's a very average run blocker.
I think the thing with Lewan is  
BigBlueShock : 4/12/2014 8:56 pm : link
that he's got great athletic ability. And proved that at the combine. You can teach footwork, but you can't teach size and athleticism. That's why people are so high on him.
The draft is a crapshoot.  
CT Charlie : 4/12/2014 9:02 pm : link
.
It sure will be interesting on draft day if by some crazy chance  
BlueLou : 4/13/2014 7:39 am : link
all 3 of Lewan, Martin, and Donald are still on the board at 12. Heck let's throw Evans in there as well, with 3 QBs and Beckham selected among the top 11 picks!
Lewan >>>>>>>>Donald >>>>>>> and Martin  
mrpitt : 4/13/2014 2:37 pm : link
This one aint even hard - but teams will be trading up if he slides toward us at 12. He will be a starting top LEFT tackle in the NFL for the next 10 years. Any scout or fan who watches the tape - Michigan fan - can tell you this.

Donald CAN be a star player (his tape is sick), but if we are at 12 and it's either him or Martin, Martin is the safer pick, thus will be a Giant. Mara wants no more reaches and chance players. Martin will be a Snee replacement by week 4, and our guard for a long time if we keep him.

The Giants better not draft a TE at 12 lol at no blocking, 12% drop rate "WR" Ebron, a linebacker at 12 lol at Barr in a 4-3, and be VERY careful drafting a WR at 12 - as Evens might not be as good as some of these second and third tier wide outs - it's THAT deep, and Evans had a LOT of time with Johnny Football extending plays. Give me a great hand, great route running WR that gets separation - a tough get the ball, hit back type, like maybe a Boldin.

My dream draft - "Another brick in the Wall"

1- Taylor Lewan OT (Aaron Donald or Zack Martin)
2- Xavier Su'a-Filo OG (I'd move up if need be - all pro)
3- Jarvis Landry WR (a steal if he lasts here)
4- C.J. Fiedorowicz TE (a soft handed monster who can block)
5- Bryan Stork, C (needs a few years to get stronger)
5- Aaron Lynch, DE (freak athlete with huge upside - poor mind - watch his tape)
6- Aaron Colvin DB (acl worth a chance on this once top prospect this late)
Su'a Filo won't last to 43 with Brandon Thomas out of the mix with inj  
Mason : 4/14/2014 2:00 am : link
Stork won't last to rd. 5 either. There are teams who are desperate need of center who were not able to address it in FA.
RE: Su'a Filo won't last to 43 with Brandon Thomas out of the mix with inj  
mrpitt : 4/14/2014 2:39 pm : link
In comment 11619089 Mason said:
Quote:
Stork won't last to rd. 5 either. There are teams who are desperate need of center who were not able to address it in FA.


meh - you mention Stork as if he's a step in and start player on a team with a need. He's not close - he will be manhandled at the pro level, he has two years of squatting in weightrooms before he can use his potential.
RE: RE: Su'a Filo won't last to 43 with Brandon Thomas out of the mix with inj  
mrpitt : 4/14/2014 2:48 pm : link
In comment 11619890 mrpitt said:
Quote:
In comment 11619089 Mason said:


Quote:


Stork won't last to rd. 5 either. There are teams who are desperate need of center who were not able to address it in FA.



meh - you mention Stork as if he's a step in and start player on a team with a need. He's not close - he will be manhandled at the pro level, he has two years of squatting in weightrooms before he can use his potential. I don't belive Su'a Filo gets out of the first round, agreed - but if there is a guard worth a trade up, it's the zone blocking gem of an athlete. Hmmm on a trade back a few spots do get Mr. martin, gaining a later pick and turning a few later pick package into Mr. Su'a Filo? We have to be creative and nail the sure bricks for the needed wall - Martin can play left tackle if need be (figure a huge need once Beatty begins his Manning destruction again), and he's about the safest pick in the draft at our range - no red flags, and great solid tape - IMHO, he will be the Giants first round pick
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