I'm thinking of how these players stack up in terms of their potential for star vs. bust.
To me, Martin is the safest of those picks, as he'll likely be at least a competent starter over his career, and seems to me to be able to play a multitude of positions (incuding LT) at least effectively. But both Lewan and Donald may have higher ceilings.
I'd argue that Lewan's best position is RT, and for him to be considered a high ceiling pick at 12 he'd have to ultimately become a dominant LT. I think that's possible, but he's gotta develop much better technique and a better slide step to become that, because at present he relies on those long arms too much in redirecting DEs, and is out of balance and leaning when pass blocking quite a bit.
Donald seems to me to have a very high ceiling, and a medium floor. I THINK he'll be a dominant pass rusher from the DT position from day one, but if teams can blow him out in the running game (I don't see it on tape, but some here are convinced of it) then he's a liability on certain plays. But imo he can also swing to DE on some downs, where he'd likely play both the run and pass very effectively. His speed and strength off the edge would be tough to overcome, as would his ability to win one on one battles in the running game. He just sheds guys on those plays, effortlessly throwing them aside to get one on one with the ballcarrier. I'm not suggesting that Donald should play much (or necessarily any) DE, but am addressing fears that he couldn't last as a DT. I think he'll dominate there, but were that not the case I think he could become a damn fine DE in the mold of guys like Mathis and Freeney.
Tough choices for the Giants if all are there at 12, since we badly need to improve both lines.
That said if it comes down to Martin vs Lewan.. Lewan is the pick. He's a OLT that has some holes in his game, but he's a bright guy that unless he really is a jerk.. he's better than Martin.
I would rate it as in if Lewan is there at 12 he fell to us. if Donald is the pick he went around his slot and if we take Martin it is a bit of a reach for a position of need.
From a pure draft the best player it would be lewan.
That said if it comes down to Martin vs Lewan.. Lewan is the pick. He's a OLT that has some holes in his game, but he's a bright guy that unless he really is a jerk.. he's better than Martin.
Perhaps there's some that I've missed, but I just checked about 30 different mocks and the lowest I've seen Donald go is 16. So I'm not sure where the heck you get the idea that Donald "most projections will be a late 1st". That's just being misinformed. And the fact that he's only 6'0" has absolutely zero bearing on whether the Giants take him or not. The weight may or may not be an issue, but his height is a non issue
Dan Jeremiah and Mayock are the guys I listen too on this. To cross check another guy I respect is Nolan Nawrocki, formerly of Pro Football weekly. He's got Donald with a fourth round grade.
Bottom line, he's a different player and he's going to have someone fall in love to take him that high. When have the Giants drafted a 285 lb DT? I'm rooting for him.. but if you can get him in the second, why fight it?
nfl.com - ( New Window )
A guy who runs a 4.65 at 285 pounds has speed to burn. A guy who had a 1.59 10-yard split, which was faster than any of the top LBs, has speed to burn. A guy with his tremendous first step has speed to beat OTs routinely, and when you pair that speed (which forces OTs to get off balance as they get into their sets) with the strength that I mentioned, he can defeat those OTs in multiple ways and close quickly on the QB.
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... is a speed rusher...
A guy who runs a 4.65 at 285 pounds has speed to burn. A guy who had a 1.59 10-yard split, which was faster than any of the top LBs, has speed to burn. A guy with his tremendous first step has speed to beat OTs routinely, and when you pair that speed (which forces OTs to get off balance as they get into their sets) with the strength that I mentioned, he can defeat those OTs in multiple ways and close quickly on the QB.
I love Donald but he doesn't have the flexibility to be an effective edge rusher on a consistent basis.
I have no clue how you came to the Mathis / Freeney comparison; lost me on that one.
Donald was the most productive college defender last year. He played significantly better than Clowney.
"No DT is a speed rusher."
LOL. Re-watch Donald's college highlights easily found on YouTube.
Whatever team that gets Donald will be overjoyed.
Tuck was an end shifted inside on obvious passing downs.. so isn't the greatest argument to make.
I don't have him as fourth rounder. I have him in the late first/early second where he can get his feet wet as situational guy. Asking him to stop the run early may be an assumption that doesn't pay out.
I'm curious about opinions on Lewan and Martin in terms of upside and floor.
I'd feel really good about our OL upgrade overall if they could plug in a talent and a body like Lewan at LT. He would complete the puzzle for the OL.
I could see us going with Lewan at RT and Pugh at LG if Snee can't make it, but if Snee is in the lineup and Lewan starts that likely means that Beatty sits.
My concerns with Lewan is that he's not a prototypical RT. He's not a huge guy who can really dominate as a drive blocker. And you can get a RT later on; guys like Moses, Kouandjio or James, for example. So he'd ideally play LT (which he may not be ready for) and then Beatty has to sit. It would be very quick for the Giants to give up on Beatty considering their typical patience with their veterans.
Martin is the real deal and will be a solid day 1 starter with great versatility (which is something the Giants love in their OL). There is something to be said about that. IMO though he doesn't have the upside of some players he is probably one of the safest picks in the entire draft and 2nd safest OL under Matthews.
With all that said, there are picks at more premium positions like a pass rushing DT in Donald whose ceiling is so much higher.
Perhaps the biggest key to this is realizing we are in a uniquely deep draft overall and it also very deep in potential plug and play lineman. The likelihood we get one at 43 is very high.
Its kind of like asking do you want a cross between Geno Atkins and John Randle for your first pick and STILL likely get a good starter for the OL at 43 or another Justin Pugh round 1?
So yeah I also think Donalds floor is really high too. He has everything we look for in a player on the DL including the versatility to play DE at a high level. We rotated Canty,Cullen Jenkins,Tuck and even JPP to DT. We love guys that are interchangeable on the line. Donald projects to do that and do that well. The only thing he doesn't have is prototypical height. But when someone's production is so damn amazing sometimes you have to ignore a shortcoming.
On to Lewan: He has questionable character. His film while very good it isn't quite to the level of his combine. I like him alot and I think the upside is higher than Martin but I also think the risk here is higher too. Also I think he can be a good LT but I am not as confident of his LT ability as I would be with Matthews or Robinson.
So in Summary not only do I think Donald is clear cut BPA but I also think he is a pretty safe bet DESPITE his size. Every other item on the checklist is so positive I think he has so many other things that will compensate for the height.
As far as the comparisons, I think Martin is the safest pick out of the three, I think Donald may have the highest ceiling though, and could be a star, I also think he could be a bust though, people just do not seem to understand how hard it is to evaluate a player to jump from college to the pro's at defensive tackle, it is a huge jump. I like Donald, but I do have some fear about him as a pro, I also think he could be a star. I am confident that martin will be a good pro, maybe even pro bowl caliber. Lewan is a player I would not touch, his attitude is a real problem, we want team guys, not head cases, if he works hard, which is another question about him, he could become a very good left tackle, but do you take a chance, I wouldn't.
As far as the comparisons, I think Martin is the safest pick out of the three, I think Donald may have the highest ceiling though, and could be a star, I also think he could be a bust though, people just do not seem to understand how hard it is to evaluate a player to jump from college to the pro's at defensive tackle, it is a huge jump. I like Donald, but I do have some fear about him as a pro, I also think he could be a star. I am confident that martin will be a good pro, maybe even pro bowl caliber. Lewan is a player I would not touch, his attitude is a real problem, we want team guys, not head cases, if he works hard, which is another question about him, he could become a very good left tackle, but do you take a chance, I wouldn't.
Paulie if finally coming around on Donald.Its about time ;)
(6th man / not ready - Beatty)
But I'm thinking that Beatty should be ready before training camp. This was a broken bone, not an ACL or something requiring a very long rehab, unless I've missed something.
Of course with he Giants' medical staff who the heck knows what's going on with their injured guys.
I would take Martin over Lewan.
Part of this is that I am not sure Fewell would know what to do with him, in that light then, not totally sold that Donald can hold up to power running -towards him- within a vanilla DL scheme, and partly because I think this team needs dominant not just good OL play and ASAP.
It will certainly be a fun draft day, though.
I'd like to think that we could all take a wait and see approach, but that won't happen.
This is a much stronger line with Pugh-Shwartz-Walton-Snee-Lewan (or switch Lewan and Pugh).
Right, because you can't win a SB with David Diehl as your left tackle, even if you have a good pass rush.
all three. Martin has a limited ceiling. Lewan would make a better RT. And Donald may not be tough against the run - according to this interesting post.
I'm curious about opinions on Lewan and Martin in terms of upside and floor.
This surprises you? Donald has a cult following. Say his name and his followers come out, robes wearing, chanting his name. On the other hand, there are people who think he won't be good. So I do agree he is a lightning rod.
Donald CAN be a star player (his tape is sick), but if we are at 12 and it's either him or Martin, Martin is the safer pick, thus will be a Giant. Mara wants no more reaches and chance players. Martin will be a Snee replacement by week 4, and our guard for a long time if we keep him.
The Giants better not draft a TE at 12 lol at no blocking, 12% drop rate "WR" Ebron, a linebacker at 12 lol at Barr in a 4-3, and be VERY careful drafting a WR at 12 - as Evens might not be as good as some of these second and third tier wide outs - it's THAT deep, and Evans had a LOT of time with Johnny Football extending plays. Give me a great hand, great route running WR that gets separation - a tough get the ball, hit back type, like maybe a Boldin.
My dream draft - "Another brick in the Wall"
1- Taylor Lewan OT (Aaron Donald or Zack Martin)
2- Xavier Su'a-Filo OG (I'd move up if need be - all pro)
3- Jarvis Landry WR (a steal if he lasts here)
4- C.J. Fiedorowicz TE (a soft handed monster who can block)
5- Bryan Stork, C (needs a few years to get stronger)
5- Aaron Lynch, DE (freak athlete with huge upside - poor mind - watch his tape)
6- Aaron Colvin DB (acl worth a chance on this once top prospect this late)
meh - you mention Stork as if he's a step in and start player on a team with a need. He's not close - he will be manhandled at the pro level, he has two years of squatting in weightrooms before he can use his potential.
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Stork won't last to rd. 5 either. There are teams who are desperate need of center who were not able to address it in FA.
meh - you mention Stork as if he's a step in and start player on a team with a need. He's not close - he will be manhandled at the pro level, he has two years of squatting in weightrooms before he can use his potential. I don't belive Su'a Filo gets out of the first round, agreed - but if there is a guard worth a trade up, it's the zone blocking gem of an athlete. Hmmm on a trade back a few spots do get Mr. martin, gaining a later pick and turning a few later pick package into Mr. Su'a Filo? We have to be creative and nail the sure bricks for the needed wall - Martin can play left tackle if need be (figure a huge need once Beatty begins his Manning destruction again), and he's about the safest pick in the draft at our range - no red flags, and great solid tape - IMHO, he will be the Giants first round pick