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Giants concerned Eli is in "decline"?

DanMetroMan : 4/12/2014 8:10 pm
ESPN's Dan Graziano reports the Giants have concerns Eli Manning is entering the decline stage of his career.
Manning turned 33 in January. Per Graziano, it's part of the reason the G-Men decided not to extend Eli's contract this offseason, which would have provided significant cap relief. The Giants are hoping Manning is "energized" by the arrival of OC Ben McAdoo, but there's no guarantee he can rebound from the regression he showed in 2013. The Giants lost Hakeem Nicks and failed to upgrade at wide receiver or tight end in free agency, so Manning will be working with mostly the same supporting cast as last year. Manning recently underwent ankle surgery, but is expected to be ready for training camp.
Source: ESPN.com Apr 12 - 2:38 PM


I can't argue with a coaching staff that sees him every day but I have a very hard time using 1 season to cause concern. Awful line, lazy/disinterested Nicks, no TE, no running game. He "sucks" this year and it would be safe to say he is in fact likely in decline.
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You can see biases  
Phil from WNY : 4/14/2014 9:10 am : link
all over this thread.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 4/14/2014 9:24 am : link
2011 was likely a peak year, one that he may replicate again, but that shouldn't be the expected output from Eli. 2008-2010 Eli is realistic (and still quite good). Eli was bad the last half of 2012 too, it wasn't just last year. However, I have difficulty believing that Eli would so rapidly decline from top five QB in 2011 to bottom five QB in 2013.

And physically, I did think he lost a bit of zip on the ball towards the last season - but I don't have high confidence in that meaning anything (or that I'm even correct).
I just don't think  
giantranger : 4/14/2014 9:27 am : link
last season was a good barometer to tell. Perhaps he is, but with the O-line piss poor performance and the lack of an effective running game. Also with WR's underachieving, it's hard to tell.
even when Eli had good protection last year, he didn't look good  
Greg from LI : 4/14/2014 9:31 am : link
I can understand believing that he can bounce back, but the childish "how dare you say he's in decline" attitudes are just plain silly. Not every QB plays at a high level into his late 30s. Taking a wait and see position is simply prudent.
RE: even when Eli had good protection last year, he didn't look good  
Ash : 4/14/2014 9:34 am : link
In comment 11619230 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I can understand believing that he can bounce back, but the childish "how dare you say he's in decline" attitudes are just plain silly. Not every QB plays at a high level into his late 30s. Taking a wait and see position is simply prudent.


This is right.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 4/14/2014 9:35 am : link
Greg, I think a lot of that has to do with being shell-shocked from the first four or five games.

Of course, I wonder what my opinion would be if I weren't a Giants fan. As Phil points out, we're biased. Eli's a weird player to analyze.
I saw him be not as elusive in the pocket  
chris r : 4/14/2014 9:36 am : link
as he was previously, even when the pocket wasn't completely collapsed.
RE: even when Eli had good protection last year, he didn't look good  
Jon from PA : 4/14/2014 9:39 am : link
In comment 11619230 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I can understand believing that he can bounce back, but the childish "how dare you say he's in decline" attitudes are just plain silly. Not every QB plays at a high level into his late 30s. Taking a wait and see position is simply prudent.


Agreed. To argue either side with any degree of certainty is rediculous.
Brett  
Greg from LI : 4/14/2014 9:42 am : link
IMO Eli's career is unusual, the quality of the Giants teams he's played for has been unusual and Tom Coughlin's track record has been unusual, and it's hard to really get an accurate gauge of any of the three. That's the biggest reason why I treasure my memories of the Parcells era more than the Coughlin era, I think. The wild fluctuations in performance in the past 8-9 years have been perplexing, even accounting for the two stunning championships.
you guys are trying to draw conclusions  
Jon from PA : 4/14/2014 9:45 am : link
from datapoints that were thrown off due to external factors. To what degree is the question. This will be an important year for the Giants, Eli.
RE: Brett  
BrettNYG10 : 4/14/2014 9:47 am : link
In comment 11619256 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
IMO Eli's career is unusual, the quality of the Giants teams he's played for has been unusual and Tom Coughlin's track record has been unusual, and it's hard to really get an accurate gauge of any of the three. That's the biggest reason why I treasure my memories of the Parcells era more than the Coughlin era, I think. The wild fluctuations in performance in the past 8-9 years have been perplexing, even accounting for the two stunning championships.


Agreed, it's really been odd. Incredibly enjoyable, but odd. I was too young for Parcells, obviously, but that makes sense.
Brett,  
AnishPatel : 4/14/2014 9:57 am : link
Quote:
Eli's a weird player to analyze.


In what way is he weird to analyze? Regarding what aspect?
Anish  
Greg from LI : 4/14/2014 10:04 am : link
In the sense that he's played so incredibly well in the biggest moments, but he's never really sustained that level of play for any length of time aside from 2011.
RE: Brett,  
BrettNYG10 : 4/14/2014 10:06 am : link
In comment 11619285 AnishPatel said:
Quote:


Quote:


Eli's a weird player to analyze.



In what way is he weird to analyze? Regarding what aspect?


Because he's a wildly inconsistent player. Not just game-to-game, but quarter-to-quarter. His ability to elevate his play in the fourth quarter is incredible.

He's, IMV, only been a top five regular season QB once but has put together two incredible post-season runs. After 2011, when it looks like he's in the truly elite class of QB's, he starts off incredibly hot in 2012 and then plays like shit in the last half of the year.

I think he makes the HOF off of his longevity and his two incredible runs. He's had an odd career.
It's just his opinion that  
nicky43 : 4/14/2014 10:09 am : link
the Giants COULD have concerns and not a fact that they do. It was also reported this morning that the Giants are seeing something they don't like with Nassib's throwing arm. They see something weird but the guy who said this was not sure weather it was a problem with the arm itself or his throwing style.

Probably a rumor thrown out to remove any potential opportunity for the Giants to trade him. But it does explain why they are bringing in all these QBs.
wow hard to believe people  
area junc : 4/14/2014 10:12 am : link
cant admit he played poorly last year. reese said it, coughlin said it, eli said it. accept it.
here is an article written 12-19-13 detailing eli's problems
Will Eli Manning Rebound from Nightmare 2013 Season? - ( New Window )
Brett,  
AnishPatel : 4/14/2014 10:20 am : link

I think it's interesting. I never liked the system he was in from day 1. I think that caused bad habits such as not taking a sack. I'd rather him take a sack then force a throw. That's one aspect I loathe about him. His prone to idiotic decisions like the left handed throw to Boss in the endzone against the panthers. Just flat out assinine shit that should get you benched or yelled at.

He played like shit as well as the whole offense at the end of the 2012 season, which carried over into pre season, which carried over into the whole regular season. At the end of the 2012 season, I knew our offense had issues. But don't you find it interesting his "decline" from there on matched other current factors? Mainly our decline in draft classes which contributed to the team? How about just OL in general? Age, degradation of talent, and injuries all impacted out OL. We couldn't improve and have a seamless transition from those once solid 5 to the project picks, who in my estimation were supposed to develop and slide right in.

That didn't happen, and so we get this shit show of an offense. I find that people want to blame Eli, and rightly so, might I add but fail to see other conditions impacting the offense too.

Just look at the comments regarding Eli from this past year. Eli played like shit.. Well no kidding, Your OL can't pass block, run block, your X is useless, you're Z makes plays then accounts for 8 ints in which he is the target. You're fucking GM signs a WCO TE no considering system we run, and the so called "knife" Reese talked about in describing Murphy ended up stabbing Eli over and over.

So that accounts for the state of our offense. That caused Eli to do even more dumb shit than usual. Take a sack, and stop making shitty decisions. It was obvious he didn't trust his WRs, so if that's the case than I am glad we change systems.

ok .. so perhaps he is in decline  
giantranger : 4/14/2014 10:24 am : link
does that mean in the event that the team around him performs well enough to take them places, that Eli will be the one holding them back? The Giants have no other choice other than to find out.
Anish  
Greg from LI : 4/14/2014 10:28 am : link
I don't disagree with anything you're saying, but this goes back long before this past season.
Anish,  
BrettNYG10 : 4/14/2014 10:36 am : link
I completely agree - Eli's always been much more of a gunslinger/risk-taker than he's been given credit for. With nothing else on offense, it got worse - he knew he had to do it all, which caused even more errors than is typical. Last year was the perfect storm.
I think people confuse two things when discussing Eli  
chris r : 4/14/2014 10:38 am : link
1. How appreciative we are as fans for the two magical SB runs.
2. The caliber of QB Eli has been over his career and will be going forward.
Greg,  
AnishPatel : 4/14/2014 10:49 am : link
This type of shit goes back when Hufangel was hired. You see we don't go out of our way to help Eli. Like that fool having Eli throw 557 times, 2nd most in his career, when we had a stud RB in Barber in his prime. How the hell has their QB throw that any damn times when Tiki is in beast mode during those years?

So if you point to way before recent years, I agree. This shit both ways has been going on since Eli started for us. Like the Titans game where Hufangel had Eli keep throwing up 21 points. The game where Kiwi hugged Young, and didn't sack him.

This shit has been going on since Eli started a full since back in 2005.
Fair enough  
Greg from LI : 4/14/2014 10:55 am : link
I'm not knowledgable about Xs and Os to truly factor that into Eli's (and the Giants') track record. It does seem historically that the Giants have long been determined to run their offense a certain way come hell or high water, and have never really tried to tailor the offense to the personnel they've had.
Brett,  
AnishPatel : 4/14/2014 10:59 am : link
In comment 11619365 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I completely agree - Eli's always been much more of a gunslinger/risk-taker than he's been given credit for. With nothing else on offense, it got worse - he knew he had to do it all, which caused even more errors than is typical. Last year was the perfect storm.


I think Eli makes those throws out of need. In our system we run a lot of 5 and 7 step drops. The Wrs have to make sight adjustments and have to be on the same page with Eli.

We don't check down often. So if pressure is coming, or the internal clock goes off to get rid of it. You have to make a play. I have seen countless times our adjustments didn't work where the defender was in our hip pocket. So then what?
Throw the ball away? Take a sack? Try to fit it in?

I hated that so much. I hope Ben M. has more check downs. If Eli turned into Capt. Checkdown I'd love it. Do what Rivers did and get a high completion % doing that shit.

The question I have out side of personnel and focusing in on scheme are:

How much of screens will be implemented?
How will the RB be used in this offense?
Will they the sight adjustment rules for the slot WR stay the same? If not, then that might impact the productivity of JJ and Cruz.

There are a lot of questions I am happy to wait and see if they are answered this season. In the end, I've said this before, Eli and this offense has 1 year. Eli basically has a 2 years on his deal. Coaching staff has 2 years, but basically 1 since we don't let them coach on a lame duck year.

AR, RR, and Wilson contract expires 2015. All the other WRs and TEs have are in their contract years. So if we fuck up this year, our whole team could be impacted with the firing of our coaches to deciding to allow Eli to play through his contract, before letting him "earn the right to test free agency", which is a Reeseism I am starting to like. That's a polite way of saying, no thanks, test the market we don't want you back.

What are you babbling about Hufnagel  
HomerJones45 : 4/14/2014 11:49 am : link
the Giants were 11th in passing yardage, 6th in rushing yardage, 9th in passing attempts, 11th in rushing attempts 8th in passing td's and 10th in rushing td's that year. As a team, we were 3rd in scoring and 4th in total yardage.

I know you have hated the offense but that "fool" Hufnagel had a very balanced and very, very potent offense when Eli threw 557 times.
AP,  
BrettNYG10 : 4/14/2014 1:54 pm : link
Those are all excellent points. I agree, I'd love to see more check downs and higher percentage passes. I can't wait to see what McAdoo brings to the table. I liked KG, but think it was time for a change.
RE: Brett  
blakjedi : 4/14/2014 2:06 pm : link
In comment 11619256 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
IMO Eli's career is unusual, the quality of the Giants teams he's played for has been unusual and Tom Coughlin's track record has been unusual, and it's hard to really get an accurate gauge of any of the three. That's the biggest reason why I treasure my memories of the Parcells era more than the Coughlin era, I think. The wild fluctuations in performance in the past 8-9 years have been perplexing, even accounting for the two stunning championships.


Well said. I agree. Even when dominating, the Giants never made you feel comfortable that they would win. They could go from dominant and great to awful or vice versa, within the course of a season, month or even game (philly 2010 game).

Everyone  
NJGiantFan84 : 4/14/2014 4:37 pm : link
keeps talking about this "cap relief" like we so desperately needed it because we couldn't sign anybody. Only 2 teams signed more guys than we did. Re-structuring would have just pushed more money down the line. You only do that as a last resort. It's a lazy argument and even lazier to draw conclusions from that fact.
This is being leaked to try to get someone  
Phil in LA : 4/14/2014 4:38 pm : link
to trade up for pick 12.
The Giants  
Semipro Lineman : 4/14/2014 4:39 pm : link
rumor control game is not in decline then
RE: What are you babbling about Hufnagel  
AnishPatel : 4/14/2014 4:54 pm : link
No shit, yet through all that his ass was shown the door. Now was the hell did that happen? Hufangel sucked as a coach. I know the stats thanks.

If I am not mistaken stat wise Lewis did well too. Where the fuck is he now? Both were shitty coordinators.

He barely lasted here. What from 2004-2007 off season, until Gilbride took over. We could have eased Eli in and ran the ball a hell of a lot more. Ben had Whisenhunt, Rivers had Cam Cameron and we had this guy who I couldn't stand. In fact, I preferred Gilbride over Hufangel. I was happy he got promoted. I think in one of the giants books, maybe the Accorsi book, Hufangel was mentioned in a negative light. I remember someone posted that here. Perhaps it was Eric, it was a while ago.

Eli had success once Hufangel was fired and Gilbride took over. In fact a lot of the formations used changed as well as documented by my game breakdowns.

...  
BrettNYG10 : 4/14/2014 4:55 pm : link
I don't think HomerJones45 has have criticized or blamed a coach - not even Sheridan.
Clarification, Brett  
Greg from LI : 4/14/2014 5:02 pm : link
He's never criticized a coach on Coughlin's staff. Somehow Gene lost the ability to find fault with coaches when Fassel was canned.
RE: Clarification, Brett  
BrettNYG10 : 4/14/2014 5:04 pm : link
In comment 11620157 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
He's never criticized a coach on Coughlin's staff. Somehow Gene lost the ability to find fault with coaches when Fassel was canned.


Ah, got it - that was before my time here. Thanks.
Brett  
AnishPatel : 4/14/2014 5:08 pm : link
I don't know the guy. Has he posted anything worth reading on BBI?

This was an article from 2005. I remember this time period because I questioned why we threw more at times when we could have relied on Tiki. I never liked both coordinators Coughlin hired in Hufangel and Tim Lewis.
An Erratic Manning Puts the Giants on Blue Alert - ( New Window )
RE: This is being leaked to try to get someone  
rptl530 : 4/14/2014 5:09 pm : link
In comment 11620132 Phil in LA said:
Quote:
to trade up for pick 12.


Agree.
I'll say it again ... lots of stupid on this thread ...  
baadbill : 4/14/2014 7:09 pm : link
Nobody but nobody has been able to explain to me what would have been a good season for Eli last year. 5 less interceptions? How about 50% less interceptions and twice the number of sacks? From what I read here, I think some people think the answer is "yes". That's just pure dumb and dumber in a season that started out 0-6 and continued with no running game and the WR just got worse, not better. But sure, heck, Eli, don't try to win games, just take the sacks and your fan base will be happy.

Likewise, nobody here has been able to tell me what year Brady (or Andrew Luck) would have had if he was the QB for the 2013 Giants. Would it have been better than Eli? Based upon what? But is anyone here ready to say Andrew Luck is done or on the decline? I promise you this - if Andrew Luck was the QB of the 2013 Giants, he would have sucked big dick. He would have looked like his career was over. Because you can't look good with ... no blocking - no receivers - and no running backs. I mean seriously. What do you expect Andrew Luck to do? Fly?

The idea that Manning threw bad balls when he had protection is, once again, irrelevant. Andrew Luck probably would have been home in bed crying before he went 0-6 without any offense line. Point being - you get happy feet when you have no protection. Fans see clean blocking on TV and assume that Manning should some how realize that this particular play the rush isn't coming. But that isn't how it works. He doesn't know. Play to play. He just doesn't know. He has to trust his blockers and rely on his internal clock on when to get rid of the ball. And when you have no offensive line, that clock goes haywire.

And when you have no offense line AND no running backs AND no wide receivers - I don't give a crap what you guys say - but Brady, Andrew Luck, Peyton Maning - any pocket quarterback is going to have a horrible season. Again, just a whole bunch of stupid on here.
Did Eli play great in a bad situation, or was he horrible?  
McL : 4/14/2014 7:16 pm : link
I recently read an article that was linked somewhere here on BBI. It talked about a statistic for QB decision making. Basically it was a percentage of plays where the QB made a bad decision regardless of the outcome of the play. I t might hav ebeen a FOotball Outsiders stat, not sure.

However the stat was that in 2012 Eli had a 2.8 rate of bad decisions. In 2013 he had a rate of 2.4. So it actually went down. Bottom line is that all the interceptions had more to do with the overall team suckitude than Eli himself.

This actually makes sense to me. I think as the wheels came off Eli became more and more conservative. Whereas in the past he was willing to be more of a gunslinger because he felt that the offense was good enough to overcome the occasional bad outcome. But as he lost confidence in the offense, and as he lost confidence in his receivers he took fewer chances, threw the ball away more, and took more sacks.

Right now, I think Eli is still Eli, and as long as he has a decent supporting cast, the offense will hum around him. Problem is, I don't think he has a decent supporting cast yet. Better than it was, but there was nowhere to go but up.
One more thing ...  
baadbill : 4/14/2014 7:19 pm : link
next year this time, after Manning has a more "normal" Manning year and the level of critics have returned to a more "normal" level, what we will hear from many on BBI is that it was McAdoo's system that "saved" Manning.

Well - as far in advance as possible - I'm calling Bull Shit on that too. Manning never changed. He is what he has always been (and what most QB are). They need a supporting cast. Manning will be the same Manning next year as he was in 2013, but nobody will complain because the supporting cast will be better and everyone will say "See, I knew he could come back". Well BULL SHIT to that too. He never left.
You already believe Eli had a "fantastic" season  
Jimmy Googs : 4/14/2014 7:21 pm : link
last year as per your earlier comments.

So why do you now need us to tell you what a "good" season for Eli would have been?

Using your logic Eli seems to get better the more interceptions he throws...

RE: You already believe Eli had a  
baadbill : 4/14/2014 7:27 pm : link
In comment 11620282 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
last year as per your earlier comments.

So why do you now need us to tell you what a "good" season for Eli would have been?

Using your logic Eli seems to get better the more interceptions he throws...


Jimmy, what I said is that nobody can tell me what kind of season Manning had. Not you or anyone else. How do you evaluate a QB who has no blocking, no running back and no receivers? Measure his performance against what kind of base?

I liked what I saw of Manning last year from the stand point that I think he did what he could to help the team win against all odds and at his own personal sacrifice statistically. That is what I've said. But I've not said he played fantastic - because I've tried - OVER AND OVER to make the point that NOBODY in the media or on BBI has any basis to measure his performance last year.

This isn't difficult stuff. It just takes a tiny bit of common sense.
So in a year that the Giants have a good running back  
Jimmy Googs : 4/14/2014 8:41 pm : link
solid WRs & TEs and a good offensive line, and Eli puts up 4000+ yards, 30 TDs and 10 ints), how do we know Eli had a great year?

How do we know it wasn't everyone else overperforming and Eli was just along for the ride, and potentially left the team short-changed at numerous times?

In fact, how do we truly know anything at all in the world as long as there are people who can come up with unanswerable questions in an effort to make a big deal out something that is as plain as the nose on your face?

RE: So in a year that the Giants have a good running back  
baadbill : 4/14/2014 8:46 pm : link
In comment 11620362 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
solid WRs & TEs and a good offensive line, and Eli puts up 4000+ yards, 30 TDs and 10 ints), how do we know Eli had a great year?

How do we know it wasn't everyone else overperforming and Eli was just along for the ride, and potentially left the team short-changed at numerous times?

In fact, how do we truly know anything at all in the world as long as there are people who can come up with unanswerable questions in an effort to make a big deal out something that is as plain as the nose on your face?


Believe what you want. I'll save this thread and we'll talk when you eat crow shit one year from today.
Save anything you want. It has nothing to do with our debate.  
Jimmy Googs : 4/14/2014 8:51 pm : link
Our debate is simply about the fact that you think Eli played really well in 2013 and I don't.

I hope, AND EXPECT, Eli to do better in 2014 for numerous reasons, including the premise that I am not sure he can play any worse.


checkdowns  
Dylan fan : 4/14/2014 9:09 pm : link
The Giants had SIX starting RBs last year. Cox was a rookie, Hillis & BJ were picked up in the middle of the season (& BJ lasted, what, 3 games & can't catch a cold 8 times out of 10 anyhow), Scott sucks & Wilson was still unable to learn his passing assignments to be trusted passing to him. Expecting plug & play all year with many inexperienced players unfamiliar with the system to be successful is what's stupid.

Sacks are also not the only measure of how often Eli was under pressure. I'd be surprised if he wasn't knocked down & had more pressures than Brady, Smith & Big Ben.
RE: reese  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/14/2014 9:48 pm : link
In comment 11617498 SBlue46 said:
Quote:
Said a month or 2 ago..
He wouldnt rule out a qb
In draft...not signing eli
Is smart..he actually had
2 bad years..and I think if they
Sign Flynn. .he is a backup
That can start...if not
12th pick could be a qb..
Manning will want 25mil
And 4 year guarantee..
I think that is not wise..
Oline and new offense..will
Demand more mobile qb..and
Mac said screens will be
Most important in his offense
And eli has been horrible
Screen qb...could be end

This is like reading Beowulf. What a great poem.

Word wrap is your friend.
RE: Save anything you want. It has nothing to do with our debate.  
baadbill : 4/15/2014 6:41 pm : link
In comment 11620377 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Our debate is simply about the fact that you think Eli played really well in 2013 and I don't.

I hope, AND EXPECT, Eli to do better in 2014 for numerous reasons, including the premise that I am not sure he can play any worse.


Maybe we argue because you refuse to listen. I didn't say Eli played great. I said it was impossible to evaluate how he played because there wasn't a football team around him.

As for how Eli looked? He LOOKED horrible. Any ten year old can make that simplistic assessment. That's the only assessment you've made. You've not taken it to the level of WHY. Nor can you. Because it isn't possible to know why he looked bad. Was any of it Eli? How much? How do you OBJECTIVELY measure that?
RE: So in a year that the Giants have a good running back  
baadbill : 4/15/2014 6:48 pm : link
In comment 11620362 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
solid WRs & TEs and a good offensive line, and Eli puts up 4000+ yards, 30 TDs and 10 ints), how do we know Eli had a great year?


Because, in a team sport like football, it is very difficult - if not impossible - to measure individual performances. The only way you can measure them is when you have at least a semblance of normalcy in your team. Some blocking, some running game and some passing game.

The way you talk, you'd expect teams to bring in a QB for a tryout and give him no protection, no receivers, and sack him every single pass attempt - in order to evaluate his skill set. Frankly, that's a stupid and idiotic thought. The only way you can evaluate players is when they are surrounded with a functioning and performing cast. Even then, it is very difficult in the best of times to know how much to credit the QB vs the WR vs the OL etc. But, if you even had a clue about football, you'd already know that.

Moving forward, I'll let Gilbride take it from here. Wish he'd come post so you could make your ludicrous arguments to him (or whatever phrase Gilbride used). But, for me, since all you appear capable of evaluating is the fact Eli didn't look good - without the ability to understand there are reasons for that - it's no longer worth having a conversation.
Since you were so quiet until now Baadbill...  
Jimmy Googs : 4/15/2014 6:57 pm : link
i figured you jumped off that ledge.




One bad year does not = decline  
Berrylish : 4/15/2014 6:59 pm : link
one bad O-line does not = QB decline and 1 possibly bad coach does not = Decline. Let's see what the kid does this year before making a snap decision.
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