Giants concerned Eli is in "decline"?

before his brother whose 5 years older than him and just put up one of, if not the best qb seasons of all time. Although obviously peyton has always been better, I like to think last season was due more to the reasons mentioned above (we, te, line, and running game)

Eli is fine if the ol is fine. It is as simple as that.

vey

?

Said a month or 2 ago..
He wouldnt rule out a qb
In draft...not signing eli
Is smart..he actually had
2 bad years..and I think if they
Sign Flynn. .he is a backup
That can start...if not
12th pick could be a qb..
Manning will want 25mil
And 4 year guarantee..
I think that is not wise..
Oline and new offense..will
Demand more mobile qb..and
Mac said screens will be
Most important in his offense
And eli has been horrible
Screen qb...could be end

guy had no OL, couldn't run the ball or pass it. Our X was useless. Our Z made plays but then 8 ints was when he was targeted. Murphy was int machine. Fool can't run a 5 yard hitch without drafting. Our Rbs useless and TE useless. That added to Eli making stupid decisions to trying to force things. He didn't trust his WRs corps, which coughlin said after the season.

Add in shitty drafts since Ross was hired, and you get this mess.

I doubt see how someone can say with all those conditions above, eli had a pro bowl season.

The Giants are playing it perfectly. Eli will be 35 when his 2 years left expires. I wouldn't touch his contract either. In fact, the coaching staff are on a 2 year deal. Basically 1 year since TC won't coach on a lame duck year.

AR, RR, and Wilsons contracts expire in 2 years. Everyone else, WRs, and rest of the TEs, contract expires in 1 year. So yeah, if we fuck up our team can see massive changes. It could mean change in coaching staff, and not bring Eli back.

I think it's a smart move to leave his contract the way it is and say, we expect better this year. If our team sucks, we can rip it all down.

they will draft a QB at 12. I'll believe that if I see it.

Eli is concerned that the Giants haven't been able to support him with a viable offensive line, number one receiver, tight end and running game for the past two years.

In comment 11617507 Chicken Teriyaki Boy said:

Quote:

Eli is concerned that the Giants haven't been able to support him with a viable offensive line, number one receiver, tight end and running game for the past two years.

LOL ^^^ This ^^^^

Graziano is terrible

Curious to see his wording.

to be fair.. the Giants could both have concerns Eli is in decline AND view none of the QB's at 12 worthy of using a premium pick on. Plus they could be "concerned" but that doesn't mean it's a fact.

there have been many people on this site who have said not to extend eli this offseason and see how he plays this season first.

this is not an anti-giants article by graziano

Eli's at his best in high pressure situations, and when under scrutiny... remember the whole "elite" things? He goes on to have his best season, capped by a SB win.

Personally I'd bet on Eli proving to the Giants he's well worth another fat contract extension past his current one.

The draft performance of the NYG front office since Ross was hired.

There are those who wonder whether Manning is a player in decline at age 33. This is a question that has not gone unasked within the ranks of the Giants' front office. It is part of the reason the Giants decided not to try this offseason to extend Manning's contract, which runs through 2015, even though doing so would have offered them significant salary cap relief. They would like to see him pull out of his downward trend before they commit to his late 30s. Their hope is that he has a big year and that extending him next offseason makes sense.

But there's no way to know, and the Giants didn't exactly load up around Manning this offseason. They brought in a couple of new offensive linemen who may or may not be upgrades. They added a running back who's probably better than what they had in the second half of 2013. They did not upgrade at wide receiver or tight end. Manning is going to have to make his recovery more or less on his own. He's going to have to find a way to improve the aspects of his performance that were his fault in 2013. The Giants hope that, in doing so, he can elevate the personnel around him on the offensive side of the ball.

They're also hoping, as coach Tom Coughlin has said more than once, that Manning will be "energized" by the arrival of new offensive coordinator Ben McAdoo. After 10 years in basically the same system, Manning will be learning new things this summer and putting them into practice in the fall. We do not yet know enough about the offense McAdoo is installing to guess whether Manning's skills are suited to it, but it's safe to assume the Giants asked (and answered) that question before hiring McAdoo. The new offense, if it bears any resemblance to the one in which McAdoo worked in Green Bay, is likely to rely on quick decision-making (a Manning strength) and short-range accuracy. The old reliance on downfield timing and the ability of his receivers to read coverages exactly as he does from play to play could dwindle, and with it the interception total.

Link - ( New Window )

49'ers were convinced Y.A. Title was in decline......

the Pats were convinced Jim Plunkett was finished.....

Guys have won Sb's way over 33.........

It's nonsense.

cites no sources. Eli is 33, but he has been one of the healthier QBs in the league since he came into the NFL. Compare Eli's health to Ben R.

And except for Pugh, the OL we put on the field last year was indescribably bad. He also had no running game, no TE, and a diva WR who checked out mentally before the season even started.

That having been said, it's certainly no guarantee that he lasts as long as his brother. His arm could go by the time he's 35. Even a little loss of velocity could be professionally fatal in a league with such small windows and passing lanes.

But right now, it's all systems go.

enough said. Why does anybody put any credence in anything coming from him? He is BSPN's attack dog against the Giant's. I don't open his blog or read anything he writes.

That giants might take qb at 12. Not going to happen at all but maybe a team moves up if they fall for the thinking Giants are looking QB.

I hope that happens, but a lot of things have to break right for that to happen. I just want us to be an above .500 team were Eli can play very well. If that translates to big time success then fine by me.

obviously he doesn't have the genes to play successfully into his late 30s.

.

of Eli shoving another Lombardi Trophy right up his critics' asses.

In comment 11617494 nyjuggernaut said:

Quote:

?

yes but he retracted it

Eli Manning is the greatest QB in the history of The Giants

But the "in decline" argument is definitely in the realm of possibility

Yes, the talent around Eli this past season was atrocious....and any QB would have a bad season with a similar supporting cast

The season Eli just put together was not that of a Two Time Super Bowl Champion and a 10 year NFL Starting QB....I don't think any of the "Top 5" players at the QB position in the NFL would have done anything CLOSE to what this season was for Eli

The season before was equally as bad....

When does the finger get pointed at the QB for the blame?
Does a receiver run the wrong route EVERYTIME he throws the ball? Does the Running back truely not know how to catch a screen pass? Does the QB ALWAYS call the RIGHT protection? Do lineman not hold blocks at all?

If he struggles again this year, I feel that some on this board will force the blame on McAdoo and not the QB

I'm a Eli Manning guy....but I'm in the camp that his best days are behind him

I seriously hope I'm wrong

The Giants didnt need to extend Eli's contract this year. It was always an option but they were able to be extremely active in free agency WITHOUT giving him an extension.

Do the Giants want to see if Eli can rebound.. of course.. thats why they got a new OC.. and are going to fix the OL and give him weapons that he can succeed with.

Very stupid article..

and Nicks didn't have the comeback year we expected. But Eli wasn't making throws that he should make when he did have time. So I get people's concern and think it's legit, though I expect we'll see the good Eli this season.

If not, they blow the whole thing up. Most of the signings and re-signings reflect an attitude that they need to show significant improvement this year (playoffs) and win in 2015-2016.

No surprises. It is better than waiting for the QB to get old.

has Eli plateaued ? Or was the team so flawed that Eli was buried? There is always the possibility that father time is catching up to Eli's game

because it wasn't a fiscally smart move? It only provides short term relief, and they haven't had the need for the extra room this year. extending 2 years of high salary is a lot of money to borrow from the future.

But anyhow, only morons aren't concerned about when the inevitable decline sets in, especially coming off a bad year. That doesn't mean anyone is in panic mode (other than on BBI).

.

...

could have had a successful year with the Giants Oline/TE/RB situation. None.

Can't wait for him to silence everyone.

that a certain number of pundits will decide the accumulation of young tqalented QBs means the incumbent is on shaky ground. Just speculation, but behind the scenes who knows what the FO thinks. Personally think it is all BS and just due diligence that will not cost us a lot to try them out, while ELI is rehabbing.

Eli's biggest hurdle is long gone...Kevin Gilbride.

that if Eli is going to finish his run on a strong note, the time was now to make some serious changes

Hence the new OC and all our FA moves. But we still need a talent upgrade across the board on offense...OL, WR, TE

is playing for his job for 15 this year. It's as simple as that. If they could find someone to play QB as well at, say, 4 million a year, they'd do it. He's already made the vast majority of the money he'll make in his Giants career. I am a huge Eli fan. But this is the reality. The obsession with constantly comparing to his brother: he's not his brother. The Eagles did it to McNabb at about the same age, right? In fact, Don had lost it. The Eagles were correct. Flynn could be brought in to replace Painter-true. Freeman is different. He would be more like a viable alternative if they could get his head screwed on straight and streamlined his mechanics.

I think Eli will have a big bounce back season in 14. But the Giants have paid him for those 2 Super Bowl wins. When Young & Reeves thought they had a viable alternative in Dave Brown, they sacked Simms. Same deal here with Eli.

How can he know there will not be upgrades at wr and te

or that the Giants have a choice but to expect Eli to play better, but here's Bob McGinn quoting scouts on how bad Eli looked last year.

Quote:

Eli Manning has started 144 straight games, the third-longest streak by an NFL quarterback behind Brett Favre (297) and Eli's brother Peyton (208). He also was MVP of the Super Bowls after the 2007 and 2011 seasons. Now Manning is off to his poorest start since establishing himself in 2005, and some personnel men are attributing it to being shell-shocked in the pocket. "He's just scared to death," one scout said. "I haven't been around a player that has just taken a turn from being so good to so bad so quick. He's absolutely killing them." On Oct. 21, Vikings DE Jared Allen bull-rushed LT Will Beatty. When Beatty backed into Manning, Allen reached all the way around Beatty and grabbed Manning around the waist as best he could. Although no other rusher approached, Manning really didn't try to release from Allen's grasp before falling down for a sack. "It was funny," said another scout. "He goes right through the tackle and Eli just kind of went in the fetal position. It was embarrassing. I've never seen that before." Two months shy of his 33rd birthday, Manning has lost some of his modest ability to move away from the rush. He has taken a lot of hits, especially early in the season, and he appears more gun-shy than ever before. "The Jared Allen sack, I never saw that in my life," one of the personnel men said. "That was the epitome of him this year. He just cowered and started moving toward Beatty. It was mind-boggling. "He is terrible. Terrible. It started out with everybody making excuses, but the more you watch him play, it's him. It's bizarre. It's pathetic."

Link - ( New Window )

that sack was on Beatty...what was Eli supposed to do? He probably wanted to protect the ball and himself, so he went down...probably what he was told to do.

Eli scared? really? GTFO.

.

In comment 11617653 RetroJint said:

Quote:

is playing for his job for 15 this year. It's as simple as that. If they could find someone to play QB as well at, say, 4 million a year, they'd do it. He's already made the vast majority of the money he'll make in his Giants career. I am a huge Eli fan. But this is the reality. The obsession with constantly comparing to his brother: he's not his brother. The Eagles did it to McNabb at about the same age, right? In fact, Don had lost it. The Eagles were correct. Flynn could be brought in to replace Painter-true. Freeman is different. He would be more like a viable alternative if they could get his head screwed on straight and streamlined his mechanics. I think Eli will have a big bounce back season in 14. But the Giants have paid him for those 2 Super Bowl wins. When Young & Reeves thought they had a viable alternative in Dave Brown, they sacked Simms. Same deal here with Eli.

And when they sacked Simms, we had to wait a decade for the next franchise QB...it's never easy to find one of those. That being said, the Giants shouldn't extend Eli until they see he can play at the highest levels again

you have to.

because his last name is Manning.. If his last name was Jones or Smith he wouldnt get anywhere near the crap he gets as an NFL QB..

Like your posts that seem well thought out and insiteful but can you please extend your line sentenses (script), its very hard reading. Thanks.

Was awful last year. No practice time with WR's didn't help. That being said he is 33 and if he does have another awful year the Giants could cut him for a 2 million cap hit. I am not saying they will do this but it is smart not to lock themselves into a QB that could be in decline.

In comment 11617661 Phil S said:

Quote:

How can he know there will not be upgrades at wr and te

you are assuming whoever we draft, if we even draft a TE or WR, will make a severe impact in his rookie year...that is pretty rare and extremely more so rare on a Tom Coughlin team. With KG out of the way, it might happen...who knows?...but it is still a big assumption.

why would they think Eli is declining. Why isn't Coughlin declining, then? They both had the same results this year and Coughlin is way the fuck older.

how anyone can blame Eli getting rushed on his "cowering" is beyond me

it's obviously just some guy who doesn't like Eli. People see what they want to see. Reality has little influence on people like that.

In comment 11617564 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

of Eli shoving another Lombardi Trophy right up his critics' asses.

Yup, yup.

That's why there will be wholesale changes on the OL along with a new RB and almost surely more help in the draft on the way.

Most of last year's debacle was attributable to the OL but they've sucked since the SF PO game and who knows, maybe E is shell shocked beyond full recovery.

We'll see.

and Phillip Rivers was all done the year before.

What a lazy article.

Our OL sucked last year. Absolutely sucked.

Quote:

The new offense, if it bears any resemblance to the one in which McAdoo worked in Green Bay, is likely to rely on quick decision-making (a Manning strength) and short-range accuracy. The old reliance on downfield timing and the ability of his receivers to read coverages exactly as he does from play to play could dwindle, and with it the interception total.

Specifically I am not at all confident that "quick decision-making" (sic) was ever Eli's strong point. Balls, unflappability, and a burning will to win have always been his strongest points IMO, along with the ability to make every throw on the field and of course to play his best in the biggest games and even the bigget moments with thoise games.

But quick decision making? I suspect that McAdoo was brought here specifically to improve Eli's game in that exact regard. It's the biggest and most obvious difference IMO between Eli and Peyton.

He's played a lot of games and taken some hits. I think he might be entering a decline as well.

He's a tough customer but he is not athletically gifted and requires as we saw last year a lot of support around him. I also would not extend him unless he takes a lower salary as he won't be worth what he's been making moving forward. He's been paid for his SB runs.

The end is coming sooner than people think. I think we have a 3 to 4 yr window again with Eli but to think he will get another 6 or 7 yrs here as a highly paid QB is questionable at best. His velocity has clearly dropped the last two years on his throws and as gutsy as he is he can't continue to make the kind of mistakes he made last year even if you want to blame everyone else for contributing to his poor play.

Pretty sure this isn't about 2015/2016. The future is now. Another losing season in 2014 and both Coughlin and Eli could be gone.

mis-read your post.

In comment 11617846 Sammo284 said:

Quote:

He's a tough customer but he is not athletically gifted and requires as we saw last year a lot of support around him. The end is coming sooner than people think. I think we have a 3 to 4 yr window again with Eli but to think he will get another 6 or 7 yrs here as a highly paid QB is questionable at best.

This is exactly right. What I want to add though is Eli's knowledge of the position and his football IQ are extremely high. Mentally he is far superior to some of the other QBs who run circles around him athletically. It is a trade off. Last year, I think it really was his head that screwed up his game. I dont think he trusted he O line either. So, he was making quick decisions, the wrong decisions, bailing out on plays, etc... for self preservation purposes.

and foremost a competitor who will do anything to win. His support last year was terrible. The Ol, TEs, RBs and Nicks were very poor. So he tried to win anyway he could. Forcing passes into coverage. making desperation throws off his back foot etc. Support him and he will win for us again. Poor drafting and FA aquisitions were the root cause of our decline not ELI.

I'll be a little concerned.

For me it depends on what would happen. If Eli has all the time in the world and messes up than, I agree. If we fail to surround him with talent, meaning it's a 2-3 offensively rebuild, then I can see the franchise saying they may want to change the page on him.

This is why I want us to go offensive big time in this draft. I want Ross and Reese to have a sense of extreme urgency to get this done all in 1 year.

In comment 11617517 GiantsFan84 said:

Quote:

there have been many people on this site who have said not to extend eli this offseason and see how he plays this season first. this is not an anti-giants article by graziano

Graziano and the fans who believe that are not putting enough emphasis on the go-awful, league-worst line that Eli has in front of him, and the piss poor support he received at WR and TE. I see no indication of Eli being in decline. This isn't a prove-it year.

Certainly not anywhere near the 5 - 7 I have read people mentioning bandied about the past year.

this info was leaked last year as well.....i know its not a subject well-rec'd here but i know for a fact there were more than a few players (nicks was one of them) that was not cool w/eli's play

we giants fans like to make excuses for him but he has been abysmal since hurricane sandy hit. when he's pulling in 20m to play like crap and everything is about him him him, while everyone else is busting their butt and playing well for vet min it creates problems! this is a grown mans game and there r a lot of new players who werent here when eli was playing well (fair or unfair)

with Eli's deal set to expire, it's going to be very interesting as to how they decide to move forward. If these types of reports become more frequent, then it's clear the stage is being set for a potential exit soon than late.

*Eli is not Peyton

*Coughlin didnt exactly get a vote of confidence either - they are making him change the offensive system and if he didn't agree to, he was gone.

is that the Giants may have their pick of Bortles, Bridgewater and Manziel.

i happen to love bridgewater and if we needed a QB id be all over it

i also cant help but feel reese is into the "new breed" of spread football, which would explain the interest in kevin sumlin (and makes u wonder if they'd want touchdown johnny)

pure speculation at best. Sounds like it was written by somebody on BBI.

And that "scout's take" posted in this thread? Talk about a smear job...

Again.

In comment 11617715 Goin Deep said:

Quote:

Like your posts that seem well thought out and insiteful but can you please extend your line sentenses (script), its very hard reading. Thanks.

I can't be the only one that caught this gem, right?

He covers the Packers, an may be the best pro football beat writer in the nation, certainly one of the top 5. Since Garafolo left the NYG beat, our local reporters are hacks compared to McGinn.

You shouldn't dismiss his reportage as a smear job, unless you chose to wear blinders.

No way McGinn fabricated that, though maybe he sought it out to confirm his own opinion...

that for our HOF QB this is a "show me" yr

I agree, they should make a priority of getting him more help, and assume they will.

Not the guy reporting it.

I miss Ohm

but the discussion is a valid one. It isn't just Eli though, everyone is on notice. If this team has another subpar year it very well could be a full blown house cleaning starting from the top.

about any professional "scout" that would call any professional player, especially one of Eli's caliber, "embarrassing" and "pathetic".

Put your name to comments like that if you feel so strongly about it.

Wouldn't McGinn want to protect himself from looking foolish if he didn't think the smear job had merit? OK just wants to make waves, rock the boat?

That's more Ralph V's MO than McGinn's, I believe.

Even if it comes off as somewhat unprofessional.

Could be more telling than we thought.

Those scout's quotes are under the section of his game preview called "McGinn's View," at the end of the article.

not the guy reporting it.

McGinn assembles quotes from 3 different "personnel people" - 2 scouts and one untitled "personnel man."

McGinn is making what he thinks is a very serious assessment: he sees Eli's decline last year as unprecedented and "bizarre."

You brushing it off as a "smear job" says more about you than about McGinn, Britt.

And OK I've made my point (about McGinn) and it's fine to totally disagree, I get that.

?

Big picture, just look at Eli's contract and what an extension would cost if his agent pushes hard for market rate.

Would you sign him for 5/100 right now? No way. He needs to put a big 2014 in the books to even consider the ballpark.

QBs who need significantly greater support in terms of talent/quantity around them, don't deserve to make Zeus-like salaries, and can't expect to win consistently. I think Eli kind of falls into that gray area. We've seen his greatness, but we have also seen how ugly some of his weaknesses/limitations can be.

Also, I"m sick to death of the comparisons to Peyton in any kind of argument (whether it be stats, age, health, championships). Just because guys like Warren Moon, Favre, Elway played into their late 30s doesn't mean all other QBs can do it. Most flame out in pretty ugly fashion. People are equating that just because Eli won a couple SBs, that now he is therefore some legend and deserves to play as long as he wants, and will be able to. Faulty logic at it's best.

Denver's OL wasn't great at all last season. Brady has gone deep in the playoffs with porous OL. Rodgers won a SB with one of the worst OL I had seen of any playoff team in the last 15-20 yrs. Seattle just won a SB with a marginal OL.

I'm really getting tired at the continuous excuses on the rest of the offensive players. Giants sooner or later will have to make a Simms-esque decision with Eli. Extending him too much could be less of a mistake than letting a divorce happen a year too soon.

I hate to equate to another sport, but since I am a Devils fan, I'll draw parallels to what the Devils have gone through with Brodeur (been rather ugly this year and even last by allowing a former legend to continue to holding capital that his play can't match) and even what the Knicks dealth with on Ewing (really ugly and team initiated) The end eventually comes and no matter how it happens or who initiates it, it is never pretty (not everyone gets a Strahan or Elway like sendoff).

The money issue, and ROI of re-signing him at anything close to what he's already making (and earned by previous accomplishments.)

This FO is not very 'emotional' about money decisions; nor should they be.

In comment 11617903 area junc said:

Quote:

this info was leaked last year as well.....i know its not a subject well-rec'd here but i know for a fact there were more than a few players (nicks was one of them) that was not cool w/eli's play

Your "info" isn't well rec'ed because you're consistently exposed as a lying sack of shit every single time you pretend to be an insider, from your Rolando McClain drumming to your claims about offers the Giants made to Linval Joseph to your insinuations about Ahmad Bradshaw being in drugs.

At least have the smarts to realize why everyone killed your alleged insider tidbits about the team having locker room blowouts over Eli and not pretend it's just about people not wanting to hear bad things about him.

And it's horrible play contributed to Eli's awful season. But let's be honest, am I the only person who saw horribly inaccurate passes from Eli even when he wasn't under pressure? Eli continuously throws behind his receivers and overthrows them too depending upon the route. He's never been a consistently accurate QB but rather one who with a great supporting cast can make magic happen in the brightest of spotlights.

Mark me down as one of those with high hopes that we see something from Nassib this year that offers a glimmer of hope for him to be the starter one day. If the torch can be passed to him when Eli's current contract is up, than Reese will really have something to build around without be strangled by Eli's big salary.

Quote:

Denver's OL wasn't great at all last season. Brady has gone deep in the playoffs with porous OL. Rodgers won a SB with one of the worst OL I had seen of any playoff team in the last 15-20 yrs. Seattle just won a SB with a marginal OL.

Their offenses rely on high percentage, 5-10 yard, three step drop and let it fly, type passes. Ours asks our QB to take 7 step drops and chuck it 20+ yards down the field.

Not an excuse, but two different animals when you're talking about pourous lines.

That you're taking crazy pills

he may have to take off his rose colored glasses and go back and actually watch last games.

he will improve upon last year and get re-extended one last time.

In comment 11617597 fkap said:

Quote:

because it wasn't a fiscally smart move? It only provides short term relief, and they haven't had the need for the extra room this year. extending 2 years of high salary is a lot of money to borrow from the future. But anyhow, only morons aren't concerned about when the inevitable decline sets in, especially coming off a bad year. That doesn't mean anyone is in panic mode (other than on BBI).

I think you nailed it. The reason his cap is high now is they kept extending him pushing everything to these two years. If they don't need to extend then don't.

to be successful or not terrible is proven untrue just by his own history.

It's partly why pushing all the blame on everyone else to excuse how terrible he played last season doesn't work and it slights the good that he accomplished prior to it (as well as making me wonder what the hell team you may have been watching).

to see Eli bounce back in this new system. Besides aiming for more wins, I hope this system can pad the shit out of Elis stats. I would love to see more4-5 TD games.

In comment 11617971 Riggies said:

Quote:

In comment 11617903 area junc said: Quote: this info was leaked last year as well.....i know its not a subject well-rec'd here but i know for a fact there were more than a few players (nicks was one of them) that was not cool w/eli's play Your "info" isn't well rec'ed because you're consistently exposed as a lying sack of shit every single time you pretend to be an insider, from your Rolando McClain drumming to your claims about offers the Giants made to Linval Joseph to your insinuations about Ahmad Bradshaw being in drugs. At least have the smarts to realize why everyone killed your alleged insider tidbits about the team having locker room blowouts over Eli and not pretend it's just about people not wanting to hear bad things about him.

BRA-VO! Post of the week. Thomas thinks that Nicks didn't care for Eli's play? Is he kidding?

why we may have our pick of those three quarterbacks down at #12. I'd much rather roll the dice on Eli.

In comment 11617915 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

pure speculation at best. Sounds like it was written by somebody on BBI.

Agreed. Which also applies to all the defensiveness on this thread, right? As this, too, is all 'speculation' definitely 'written by somebody on BBI.'

Really hope it's wrong, but I have no more idea than anyone else here. So, as ever, we'll see.

cant beat the Broncos, cant beat the Ravens, couldn't beat the Giants twice in two SBs. He's not what he used to be.
Eli will be the usual Eli if he has the pieces to help. Eli was able t win 2 SBs with Gilbride, but you could argue despite KG, or maybe its despite Eli, I dont know. Eli has shown greatness and absolute bone-headedness, and a whole lot of consistency, so I think he will benefit from not having to run the most complicated offensive scheme in the NFL.

In comment 11618001 vibe4giants said:

Quote:

In comment 11617915 Britt in VA said: Quote: pure speculation at best. Sounds like it was written by somebody on BBI. Agreed. Which also applies to all the defensiveness on this thread, right? As this, too, is all 'speculation' definitely 'written by somebody on BBI.' Really hope it's wrong, but I have no more idea than anyone else here. So, as ever, we'll see.

Other than one post about the o-line in response to another poster, I haven't actually given my opinion on Eli one way or the other. I just commented on these "unnamed" sources and the wishy washiness of the two articles in this thread.

Quote:

This idea that Eli is a QB that needs an immense supporting cast Riggies : 10:12 am : link : reply to be successful or not terrible is proven untrue just by his own history. It's partly why pushing all the blame on everyone else to excuse how terrible he played last season doesn't work and it slights the good that he accomplished prior to it (as well as making me wonder what the hell team you may have been watching).

Eli has to get back to the QB that makes his WRs and general supporting cast better than they are, and not be a guy who has to be propped up by a superior running game, superior WRS with large catch radii, and superior defense.

Tell me when, in his entire career, Aaron Rodgers had an RB to work with like Tiki or Jacobs or Bradshaw... Or even a single WR as good as Plax or Nicks was at their peaks.

Noting the fact that some of the analysis on here runs no deeper than 'Peyton is 39!'.

Quote:

There are those who wonder whether Manning is a player in decline at age 33. This is a question that has not gone unasked within the ranks of the Giants' front office. It is part of the reason the Giants decided not to try this offseason to extend Manning's contract, which runs through 2015, even though doing so would have offered them significant salary cap relief. They would like to see him pull out of his downward trend before they commit to his late 30s. Their hope is that he has a big year and that extending him next offseason makes sense.

If Graziano wants to quote Reese or Coughlin or Mara, then quote him. Or, while I don't like it, specifically state "a high source within the Giants told me..." But he doesn't say either thing. He's having a discussion with himself in his own mind guessing what the Giants are probably thinking. He's supposed to be a professional writer - he's supposedly being paid - yet he writes without citing sources or even telling us what information came from the Giants and what information is just in his head? Pure garbage and journalistic malpractice.

And - its premise is also pure garbage. I have posted several times since 2013 (and during 2013) that Manning might be having his best year, not his worst. Certainly there isn't a single person on BBI (and perhaps in the world) that can tell me what Manning's statistics would have looked like if he had an all-pro OL, RB, and WR in front of him. Maybe he would have had even more interceptions and fewer TDs, but I tend to doubt it.

But this idea that 2013 was Manning's worse year is pure shit talking. Total garbage. Someone looking at statistics and saying that you can compare quarterbacks to each other based purely on statistics while ignoring the quality of the other 52 players on the respective teams. Pure unadulterated garbage.

eli does not really fit a WCO....hes been playing in an offense that fits his skills....old school 5 and 7 step drop pocket passing

nassib is interesting in a WCO imo. he has the athleticism and can throw on the run

That's not an unreasonable opinion.

Are we talking about physical decline? A guy that's never missed a start in his career doesn't really seem to indicate that.

Are we talking mental decline? I find that doubtful.

Is it prudent to just take a step back, see the musical chairs on the line which led to a career high in sacks by the midway point of the year, no running game or backs to speak of, no tight end, and a stud reciever that dogged it all year may have led to a poor performance?

I personally think Eli is the same Eli we've always known, good, bad, or indifferent. I saw nothing this year that I haven't seen in previous years, albeit amplified by a crumbling offense.

if his ankle is ok he will be much better in 14'. The Giants need a balanced offense and a good offensive line would give Eli a huge lift. They couldn't run, couldn't protect and they had only 2 good receivers. You can't make chicken soup from chicken shit. Eli is taking most of the blame. Give the guy a decent offense and sit back and watch

Could be a lower level guy questioning whether or not Eli is in decline, not necessarily TC, Reese or Mara.

I would think, at some level, for sure that question had to be asked.

with new coaches will help our offense. I think this draft we need to go all out to upgrade the personnel on offense. Like I mentioned its a 1 year build.We don't have the luxury of having a 2 or 3 rebuild. They need to go all out this draft and actually hit on most of the picks.

Although I'd mildly disagree, in that Eli's decision-making has appeared to regress a little over the last season and a half (this didn't start just last season). Is that all about everyone-but-Eli? That doesn't seem entirely plausible. But, like I said, I hope it proves to be the case. And improving the pieces around him couldn't certainly mitigate some of it.

Speed? Never had any to speak of. write it down.. Eli will be fine.

or shell shocked if he'd stop showing up to games garbed like this:

weve had this discussion here b4

plenty of potential reasons he could decline:

*age

*injury

*having children - decline started around same time

*lost hunger (2 rings, 2 Super Bowl MVPs)

*bank account is so big he doesn't feel like letting a bunch of roided up meatheads try to rip his head off (lost his "edge")

*lost passion after long career

it could be anything, or all of them

lol what a list....

Our OL stunk
Nicks added no value and Cruz is far from a #1
the offensive complexity weighed on WR/TE position performance
TE was useless
RBs no consistency
Eli was horrific himself, and has been since the midway point of 2012. Its not about sacks, and late game blowout INTs that are irrelevant and hurt his stats. Its about accuracy, its about happy feet, its about forcing plays when the risk reward is beyond awful. forcing a 5 yard pass into traffic when the upside is just that.... 5 yards. its very immature and reckless throws... even after acknowledging the OL and everything above was terrible around him.

hopefully the new offense allows more balance and a more cerebral game from Eli, which is where i think he excels. Hopefully we see more cohesion with the WRs, and the new OL allow a solid pocket up the middle.

But if people just turn a blind eye to the last 25 games he has played... and arent concerned that this could be a decline... then you are just a blind faith homer. and how Peyton plays at 39 means NOTHING.... hes the fcking GOAT. (regular season)

I expect him to bounce back but i dont have total confidence. And you dont pay a guy 20+ mio and then also need a stud X, a good OL, a good TE, and everything else. 20+ mio QB means you can win with holes... which Eli HAS DONE in the past.

I just havent seen him play as he has the last 25 games since he was a rookie. which is quite scary and cause for concern

In comment 11618036 BlueLou said:

Quote:

Could be a lower level guy questioning whether or not Eli is in decline, not necessarily TC, Reese or Mara. I would think, at some level, for sure that question had to be asked.

Lou, why would that question have had to have been asked? I could make the case that Manning had his best personal performance in 2013 - that he did more in 2013 than any of the other 31 QB could have done had they been the Giants QB - and there isn't anyone in the world who could dispute that.

Why? Well that's obvious, right? It doesn't take a brain surgeon to know that if you have the worst OL in football, zero ability to run the ball, your #1 WR missing; your #3 WR unable to make the right reads on the fly ... that you can't measure the performance of your QB under such circumstances. It's just ridiculous to even try.

So, I question the premise that Eli had a bad season. Maybe he did - but that assessment certainly can't be based upon the statistics or decisions he made while under seige. Maybe a QB coach can see something but I know one thing - nobody in the media - or on BBI - can tell me Manning had a bad season - because they would have zero basis to reach any such conclusion.

In comment 11618049 area junc said:

Quote:

weve had this discussion here b4 plenty of potential reasons he could decline: *age *injury *having children - decline started around same time *lost hunger (2 rings, 2 Super Bowl MVPs) *bank account is so big he doesn't feel like letting a bunch of roided up meatheads try to rip his head off (lost his "edge") *lost passion after long career it could be anything, or all of them

This list tells me that you know virtually nothing about the guy who has been under center for this team for the past decade.

...that Eli is "scared" to get hit and is "cowering" away from contact or whatever the insinuations are here, you might want to go back and watch the 2012 NFC Championship game. A guy with this perceived psyche doesn't make it through a game like that a winner.

In comment 11618038 vibe4giants said:

Quote:

Although I'd mildly disagree, in that Eli's decision-making has appeared to regress a little over the last season and a half (this didn't start just last season). Is that all about everyone-but-Eli? That doesn't seem entirely plausible. But, like I said, I hope it proves to be the case. And improving the pieces around him couldn't certainly mitigate some of it.

No, but it's enough (IMO) to cloud any opportunity to make a definitive assessment of his play from this past season.

So as always, I'll wait and see, and hope for improvements to all those areas to get a better idea of where he's at when he steps back on the field in September.

well... Then I'm proud to be one.

In comment 11618059 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

...that Eli is "scared" to get hit and is "cowering" away from contact or whatever the insinuations are here, you might want to go back and watch the 2012 NFC Championship game. A guy with this perceived psyche doesn't make it through a game like that a winner.

People change.

I'm sure that's it.

and you can change...
THEN EVERYBODY CAN CHANGE! - ( New Window )

see if Eli develops David Carr Syndrome this season. I want to see if he panics when he feels the rush. Let's see if that internal clock is altered in any way.

chris r said:

Quote:

People change.

Some people in some ways. Generally not about toughness though. At least not in my experience.

But, the point is, you have zero reason to say such a thing. None whatsoever. Talk to me about the QB when there is a solid 52 other players and its the QB who is holding the team back. Until then - and until proven otherwise - for me Eli is what he's always been (however you want to grade him historically). But there is zero evidence that he changed in any way over the past year or so - certainly not like the evidence we KNOW exists in the OL, running game, TE, and WR etc.

it's like the anti-Eli description.

And the only things on there that could possibly have merit are the biggest 'no shit' factors one could come up with.

Eli could be declining hard or just like the team last year, every single problem we could have possibly had, we did, and this translated to Eli's play as well and he joined in the awful.

Is there reason for concern? Of course.

But fuck if I'm not gonna hope for/expect anything other than Eli returning to 2011 form and bringing us home SB #3.

The book on Brady has for quite a while now been "get some good licks on him, he hates being hit and he goes into a shell".. but really, you can say that about most guys. Eli has always been a pretty tough dude. I don't think he woke up one day and lost that toughness.

But in a season like we just had, where you're failing to get proper protection so often and you're taking so many hits.. it piles up eventually. You probably get a little tired of taking that kind of beating.

I have no concerns about Eli if we can actually pass protect. He doesn't need an all pro line to be a good QB... he didn't exactly have that in 2011.. but he does need better than what he had in 2013. I think just about any QB would.

If the Giants don't improve the OL, I think Eli should be the one who dumps the Giants. There are probably 20 teams out there that would give their left nut for Eli.

There were times when Eli played a bit shell shocked. Other times where he pressed too much. But, there isn't a quarterback in the league that wouldn't have been effected by our complete ineptitude on offense. I don't care who you put back there. The Giants offense was a complete and total mess.

not effected, you know what I mean!!!

In thinking that is this statement true, it is a big messaging campaign by the Giants to shape the conversation headed into contract negotiations and encourage Eli to really take the bull by the horns this offseason and take the opporunity this new offense could provide? I don't think Eli really needs any movtivation, but it is hard to argue that the Giants have a need to prep the ground before contract negotiations and Eli performs very well under pressure.

doubt this is a cloak and dagger campaign by the Giants.

In comment 11618109 Sneakers O'toole said:

Quote:

doubt this is a cloak and dagger campaign by the Giants.

And I would be sorely disappointed in the franchise if there was even a hint of truth to such a suggestion.

That the Giants continue to believe in Eli - enough to go on a shopping spree to protect him this year. It's also clear that they want to see how he performs with this new protection before committing big dollars for the future.

In comment 11618108 Emil said:

Quote:

In thinking that is this statement true, it is a big messaging campaign by the Giants to shape the conversation headed into contract negotiations and encourage Eli to really take the bull by the horns this offseason and take the opporunity this new offense could provide? I don't think Eli really needs any movtivation, but it is hard to argue that the Giants have a need to prep the ground before contract negotiations and Eli performs very well under pressure.

Giants do sometimes prod their players through the media. It is usually last resort but they will use it as a channel of motivation.

I think area junc was on to something. I also think the old complicated offense was burning Eli out. It is not a fun offense to run and with the OL in shambles and everything having to be so precise for it to function well it really wore done our Qb.

Hence the big change in offensive philosophy which TC is hoping will 'reenergize' Eli.

I think the new offense will do just that.

Complexity burn out.

age and injury that's all you can go by. 33 is hardly old as far as Qb's with no serious injuries are concerned. You know he lost his fire because he has a child now? You know he's loaded forever so he has no fire for the game anymore? You are assuming this and that.

In comment 11618049 area junc said:

Quote:

weve had this discussion here b4 plenty of potential reasons he could decline: *age *injury *having children - decline started around same time *lost hunger (2 rings, 2 Super Bowl MVPs) *bank account is so big he doesn't feel like letting a bunch of roided up meatheads try to rip his head off (lost his "edge") *lost passion after long career it could be anything, or all of them

LMAO all definitive evidence that Eli is 'declining'

Can't make one single solitary post without mention of the complexity. Truly incredible.

some players get old quick and Eli is not his brother and the two brothers would be the first to tell you that.

Eli ranked among the worst qb's in the NFL last year. You guys can afford to be cheery optimists that all is well, but the FO is doing its job in hedging its bets.

may have been complex but I've never heard any broadcaster or anyone else ever suggest that the complexity posed any problem for Eli Manning. Indeed, all I've heard since he's been in the league is that one of his strengths is that he's so cerebral.

If the complexity of the offense posed a problem of any kind for the team, it wasn't Manning that had the difficulties.

I wrote his list is nothing but conjecture and I'm in trouble again. Amazing is right

In comment 11618137 HomerJones45 said:

Quote:

some players get old quick and Eli is not his brother and the two brothers would be the first to tell you that. Eli ranked among the worst qb's in the NFL last year. You guys can afford to be cheery optimists that all is well, but the FO is doing its job in hedging its bets.

Home. Fair enough. But that argument only works if you can answer the following for me.
1. Who were the top ranked QB last year? #
2. What would each of those 10 QB have been ranked had they taken every snap for the Giants last year?

If you can't answer the above - or even give me a "general ranking" - then your post makes zero sense and is totally baseless.

he could be declining sure. But Eli (along with the entire Giant offensive) has been anything but consistent throughout his career.

Homer. Fair enough. But that argument only works if you can answer the following for me.
1. Who were the ten top ranked quarterbacks last year?
2. What would each of those 10 QB have been ranked ...

It didn't work.

He sucked last year, even the most optimistic Giant fan has to admit that. That said, I struggle in trying to find a lot of QB's in this league who could have really thrived in a similar situation.

Put Peyton behind the line the Giants just threw out there in 2013 in an offense where he's got to run 5-10 step drops from snaps under center. Something tells me he wouldn't have been playing at MetLife this past February.

In comment 11618139 baadbill said:

Quote:

may have been complex but I've never heard any broadcaster or anyone else ever suggest that the complexity posed any problem for Eli Manning. Indeed, all I've heard since he's been in the league is that one of his strengths is that he's so cerebral. If the complexity of the offense posed a problem of any kind for the team, it wasn't Manning that had the difficulties.

When you run an offense like that its not fun and it can wear you down especially when everything is malfunctioning around you.

In comment 11618151 GmenDynasty said:

Quote:

In comment 11618139 baadbill said: Quote: may have been complex but I've never heard any broadcaster or anyone else ever suggest that the complexity posed any problem for Eli Manning. Indeed, all I've heard since he's been in the league is that one of his strengths is that he's so cerebral. If the complexity of the offense posed a problem of any kind for the team, it wasn't Manning that had the difficulties. When you run an offense like that its not fun and it can wear you down especially when everything is malfunctioning around you.

I agree 100 % ... Eli's problem last year was having the best part of his game taken away from him ...
He has vision and a smartness knowing what he has before the ball is even hiked ...

Last year ... he was in a fog ... not knowing if pressure would come from the left ... or from the middle ... or if the back would pick up a blitz ... or if Nicks would finish a route ... or if Randle made the right read ...

When he has the confidence in his teammates doing their jobs and making the right reads ... he has total confidence and understanding as to what will work on every play ...

In comment 11618151 GmenDynasty said:

Quote:

When you run an offense like that its not fun and it can wear you down especially when everything is malfunctioning around you.

Eli is very, very smart as is his brother. I'm sure Eli had to work hard to grasp Gilbride's complex plays. However, it seems like the WRs, TE's and sometimes RB's were not so gifted.

How many times did we see Eli and his receiver on the wrong page? This new offense has to make sure the QB and receiver are in sync 99% of the time.

GmenDynasty said:

Quote:

When you run an offense like that its not fun and it can wear you down especially when everything is malfunctioning around you.

Having no OL, no running game, and no WR that are getting open - doesn't leave a lot of options for any QB under ANY form of offense. And that has to be tiresome for anyone.

But so what? That means what? That Eli (or any QB who suffered such indignities for a full season) is done for their career? I don't see how it has anything to do with anything about the future of Manning's play. As far as I am concerned, give Manning the exact same 52 players he played with on the two SB years, and the odds are Manning in 2013 and 2014 plays BETTER than he did those two SB years because - unlike other positions - QB's usually mature like a good wine - at least until they break down from injuries or old age - neither of which seems to be the case with Manning.

I find it "funny" that I'm defending Manning when I was not a big supporter for the early part of his career. I still think he has obvious deficiencies. I think he has always been horrible with accuracy in the short and medium routes. I don't think I've ever seen him run a good screen play. I've always felt he does best when he has a solid supporting cast (i.e. he is likely to do worse than other QB when he doesn't have a great supporting cast).

But he changed my opinion of himself over time. While his accuracy didn't change, he demonstrated incredible skill with the long ball. He also convinced me with his accuracy on the sideline passes (ala Manningham's SB catch being the biggest example - but Manning hits that pass over and over and over again). He is tough as nails. He takes an incredible beating in the press - and from former players - and just keeps on ticking and, at least on the surface, shrugs it off. He clearly thinks of the team first. He's not a perfect QB - but neither was my all time favorite Simms. And Manning has won me over.

And - after waiting for so many years to find a replacement for Simms - to hear Giants' fans ganging up on Manning and questioning whether he has anything left - based upon the SHIT product the Giants organization put on the field in 2013 - is crazy - and without any justification and certainly not based upon any analysis of how any other QB in history would have fared under similar circumstances. And I have to therefore wonder about people's agendas.

when there was a time on this board, where it was Eli that made the receivers great, because when they left they were nothing......can you still say that?

In comment 11618170 Doomster said:

Quote:

when there was a time on this board, where it was Eli that made the receivers great, because when they left they were nothing......can you still say that?

What receivers might those be?

And, whatever opinion anyone previously had of Manning, why on God's earth would it be different after 2013? Does anyone have even one iota of evidence to suggest that Manning didn't have perhaps the best rating that any QB in the league would have had playing for the Giants last year? Who would have done better and why?

QB's don't win/loose Championships, TEAMS do.....and a team is only as good as it's weakest links.....and when you have many of them, they are exploited by the opposition....teams try to adjust by plugging a hole, and another one opens up.....good teams have minimal holes....bad teams have many....the Giants have many....

Have the Giants improved the OL? Yes, but to what level?

Is the defensive line stronger this year than last?

What happens to our linebacker situation, if
Beason goes down?

Is there any doubt, teams will try to take Cruz away from Eli next year?

RB is thin.....TE is non exixtant....

Eli does not have an elite line in front of him....the fact that Snee may be counted on, scares the hell out of me....

Will Eli get these "weapons" in the draft? How many first year players for the Giants, have ever been huge contributors on offense as starters?

There is no doubt that Eli developed "happy feet" last year.....how do you get that out of your mind?

Eli's main problem is inconsistency.....how do you hit Manningham, under pressure, in a SB, and miss Meyers wide open with no pressure in the Chicago game? This is not a rookie.....this is a 10 year vet, getting paid big bucks, not to make mistakes.....

Is this a blip or a trend? This season will be the answer.....

Has to be able to do
Multiple screen plays
In macs system.
I dont think he can.
He has no touch and
Is horrible on short passes.
He wont last long IMO.
Dont give him big contract
Until he proves himself.

Quote:

There is no doubt that Eli developed "happy feet" last year.....how do you get that out of your mind? Eli's main problem is inconsistency.....how do you hit Manningham, under pressure, in a SB, and miss Meyers wide open with no pressure in the Chicago game? This is not a rookie.....this is a 10 year vet, getting paid big bucks, not to make mistakes.....

Eli (and every QB in the league) get "happy feet" when their internal countdown clock is shortened because they have zero OL line - perhaps the single worst OL in Giants history.

"how do you hit Manningham, under pressure, in a SB, and miss Meyers wide open with no pressure in the Chicago game?"
I suspect you already know the answer to this Q. The answer is because of the differences in the supporting casts on the field during those two seasons. Give me a season when my QB throws the most passes in the league but has the fewest sacks, and I'll guarantee you my QB is going to have fantastic stats. On the other hand, give me the QB who has the highest number of sacks per pass attempt, and I'll promise you his stats are going to suck. Same QB. Two different results. The one hits Manningham and lots of similar plays all year long. The other hears his internal clock going off and misses wide open receivers with no apparent pressure that fans can see - but fans can't see the internal alarm clock - the alarm clock that has been cut in half or more due to playing behind the worst OL in team history.

"this is a 10 year vet, getting paid big bucks, not to make mistakes....."
With all due respect, this is a bs statement. Are you honestly going to try to tell this board that Brady would have played flawless mistake free football for the Giants of 2013? Peyton? Who? Who is this football player who has Superman stamped on his chest and is able to play mistake free football behind one of the worst OL in football history?

where the 10 top ranked QB's played?

poop

In comment 11618224 xman said:

Quote:

where the 10 top ranked QB's played?

The same place he would have led them any other year of his career. You choose. But the answer wouldn't be different in 2013 than any other year of his career. At least not based upon any evidence you - or anyone else on BBI - can demonstrate.

The NFL is going to be in for a rude awakening when Eli get's to shed the maladies of the former offense and work with McAdoo in an offense that plays to Eli's strengths, quick decisions, rhythm and timing.

Eli will be energized for sure, when he can get out of his play what he puts into it, and not being at the mercy of receivers running a wrong route. The former offense was morally defeating, unrhythmic, completely unnatural for the type of player Eli is...

I truly feel people will be very surprised at how good Eli will be, even with a non stellar supporting cast, though I hope we can improve a lot through the draft

must mean "smear job", good lord. How do some of you people deal with performance reviews at work?

In comment 11618267 David in LA said:

Quote:

must mean "smear job", good lord. How do some of you people deal with performance reviews at work?

Anything remotely critical of Eli's performance last year doesn't mean "smear job" - it just means stupidity and worthy of being ignored.

from people that are worry worts about the game. there are plenty of reasons why we faired as poorly as we did last year it wasn't all on eli. I say get a grip all you retards looking for your notoriety from writing storiies on footballteams. Eli will be fine this year or he won't, just have to watch the season as it plays out. Jeez, these people annoy me

While Eli's accuracy has improved over the years, he still lacks a certain touch when throwing short routes. He still has a tendency to throw a little high no matter where he is throwing to on the field which is why I automatically remove WR's under six foot off my draft wish list every year.

His accuracy issues should make the Giants nervous. As he ages, he will start to lose some of his arm strength and will need to rely more on shorter routes. This isn't unusually for an aging QB.

My hope is that a new OC will help him with his accuracy and touch, which will help Eli transition into the second half of his QB career. Kerry Collins struggled at first with Fassel's system, which used a lot of screens, but Collins did improve with a lot of effort. If Eli can't do this, then we will see a new starting QB in 2016 because he probably won't have the arm strength to throw long passes as consistently as he has in the past.

We all should be concerned after what we saw last year. However, there is reason for optimism as well.

Some of BBI has been seduced by Eli's first nine years and two championships, but those of us who are savvy know that it is what you do in your tenth year that matters.

the NFL in McAdoos offense

book it now

In comment 11618332 oipolloi said:

Quote:

Some of BBI has been seduced by Eli's first nine years and two championships, but those of us who are savvy know that it is what you do in your tenth year that matters.

Good point. I bet savvy BBIers even have statistics demonstrating that a quarterback's 10th year is the only year that matters when evaluating a player's career years later.

Quote:

"but those of us who are savvy know that it is what you do in your tenth year that matters."

What in the fuck..

In comment 11618325 Micko said:

Quote:

We all should be concerned after what we saw last year.

Well duh. All of Giants land is concerned after what we saw last year. But this thread is about Eli, not the Giants in general. And I seriously doubt you have any evidence that suggests Eli played worse than Brady would have played for the Giants last year. If you do, I'd love to hear it.

arcarsenal said:

Quote:

What in the fuck..

baadbill whispers to arc: "I think oipolloi was using a bit of sarcasm to point out that there might be some flaws in logic in judging a 10 year career solely upon the basis of the 10th year alone while ignoring years 1 through 9"

But lollipop has a long history of questionable material, so.. I had a "not sure if serious" moment and felt he may have actually been serious though I really hope not.

Changed their offensive system and did not extend Eli for a purpose, and that purpose was to send a message to Eli. If he continues to play the way he did last season then his career with the Giants may be coming to an abrupt halt. If the Giants were certain about Eli they would have extended him already. They obviously want to see how he responds to the new offense.

In comment 11618398 PaulN said:

Quote:

... send a message to Eli. If he continues to play the way he did last season then his career with the Giants may be coming to an abrupt halt.

Why would they be upset with the way Eli played last year? What evidence is there that Manning played worse than any other QB would have played for the Giants in 2013? I think, under the circumstances, he played fantastic and certainly better than Brady or Peyton or Vick would have played. Do you or anyone else have proof or evidence to the contrary?

Why would they be upset with the way Eli played last year? What evidence is there that Manning played worse than any other QB would have played for the Giants in 2013? I think, under the circumstances, he played fantastic and certainly better than Brady or Peyton or Vick would have played. Do you or anyone else have proof or evidence to the contrary?


Now why in the world would anyone be upset with Eli's play last year? Because he had a bad year....he had opportunities to turn games around last year and he didn't....this wasn't the 2011 Eli....this was the second half 2012 Eli.....

He played fantastic under the circumstances? Yes the supporting cast failed him, but he failed them also....

And you can say with a straight face that he played better than Brady or Peyton would have?

He's had two subpar years in a row.....Is that an indicator that he is in decline? Possibly....but he can erase all doubts with with another 2011 performance......

In comment 11618464 Doomster said:

Quote:

And you can say with a straight face that he played better than Brady or Peyton would have?

Nope. I'm saying you don't have one iota of evidence whether that's true or not. You don't have any idea whether, compared to Brady or Peyton (or whomever) Eli played much worse or much better than they would have. So, at the end of the day - you don't have any evidence at all to suggest whether Manning had a fantastic year under bad circumstances or a horrible year under bad circumstances.

You just don't know and don't have any way of knowing. Yet, you and some others here PRETEND to know that Eli had a horrible year. That's pure baseless bullshit. Maybe he did and maybe he didn't. One thing, however, is for sure. You have no way of knowing.

fantastic. Not even close to fantastic.

In comment 11618560 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

fantastic. Not even close to fantastic.

Jimmy, my point is ... how the heck do you know that? In order for you to know that, you'd have to have some way of knowing how Tom Brady would have played - remember he'd be playing with the worst OL line in Giants history; absolutely no running game; and basically no passing game.

So, under those circumstances, the definition of "fantastic" would be playing better than 90% of the quarterbacks in the league had they played for the Giants last year. And exactly what information do you have that indicates where Eli stacks up in that equation? How could you possibly know?

Eli had plenty of bad throws and/or poor decisions when the pressure wasn't exactly in his face.

He had a bad year...the entire offense had a bad year.

Lets not go over it and make some non-sensical comparison as to how other top QBs would have fared. There is no point.

In comment 11618590 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

Eli had plenty of bad throws and/or poor decisions when the pressure wasn't exactly in his face. He had a bad year...the entire offense had a bad year. Lets not go over it and make some non-sensical comparison as to how other top QBs would have fared. There is no point.

Of course there's a point. It's my belief Eli did not have a bad year. In fact, I'd argue he had the type of year that makes me proud. With no blocking of any kind and no running game or passing game, it would have been easy for most quarterbacks to simply take 100 sacks and/or throw the ball out of bounds. Or just hand off the ball even though there wasn't any running game.

But I saw Eli Manning stand in there and throw and throw some more and yet some more. With no help coming from anywhere. So, did he make bad decisions under those circumstances? Sure. What QB wouldn't? Did he seem to sometimes make bad throws when there was no apparent pressure? You bet. But, again, what do you expect? Quarterbacks use an internal clock that is based upon recent pressure. Last year that clock had to be 1/2 to 1/3rd of the normal time. Result? He forced throws when there really wasn't pressure because he perceived pressure that wasn't there.

The point of this Jimmy is quite simple. When you have the worst offense in team history. No OL. No running game. Only one WR. What the fuck do you expect? More to the point - how do YOU measure the performance? You know it is going to be ugly. But, how do you determine if he actually played better than others would have under the same circumstances?

You can't tell me you have that capability even though you seem to pretend that you do. But we all know that you don't - because none of us that information. It's impossible to know whether Manning was a hero or a goat last year - because you're trying to judge someone in the middle of a disaster. And, frankly, that's just plain dumb.

that Eli could be entering the decline phase of his career. It's especially debateable when you're the one who has to write the multi-million dollar extension check and who will be the one to put the team into cap Hell if you bet wrong.

He had a bad year, from the first throw of the season to the last throw.

Don't misunderstand me...Eli tried hard and gave it his all. And we have seen him have good years and bad years, and good games and bad games.

But last season was not good.

In comment 11618642 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

He had a bad year, from the first throw of the season to the last throw. Don't misunderstand me...Eli tried hard and gave it his all. And we have seen him have good years and bad years, and good games and bad games. But last season was not good.

Well, imo that's just a silly thing to say. Answer me this - in hindsight, knowing the state of the OL, running game, and WR, what would have been a good year for Eli last year? And upon what basis would you reach that conclusion?

by your own statement anything remotely critical of Eli is stupid . I guess you have the facts . If someone was remotely praising Eli my guess is that you would not think that is stupid.

In comment 11618667 xman said:

Quote:

by your own statement anything remotely critical of Eli is stupid . I guess you have the facts . If someone was remotely praising Eli my guess is that you would not think that is stupid.

They would be equally stupid. There simply is no factual basis to evaluate the play of Eli Manning last year. None. Zip. Nada. At least not as fans. We have no basis to know if Eli Manning would have had a career year if he had the same players as the last SB or if he still would have had a horrible statistical year.

But that's the whole point, isn't it? The offense was so horrible that it is literally impossible to know if Manning actually played well under the circumstances or if he played poorly. Yet, somehow the media and some on BBI think they have some type of insight that tells them Manning had a lousy year DESPITE the deficiencies of the offense (in other words - some here seem to believe they know Manning would have been bad even with an all pro OL, running game, and WR trio). And my point is there is absolutely zero basis behind such statements. None. At. All.

has a great year, the Giants will have to pay up to extend him. If he has a year similar to 2013, they potentially save a fortune by waiting. It's clear that the Giants are confident that Eli can get back to Super Bowl MVP level of play as they are spending a great deal of money in this off-season to protect him.

But by the same token, it would be insane to not acknowledge Eli's poor play in the last 1.5 seasons. Without a gun to their heads regarding an extension, the Giants are doing the only rational thing they can do - wait and see.

People like Graziano make their living stirring the animal spirits in the average fan and by the posts on this thread, he's succeeded. Personally, I don't consider his writing to be worthy of serious discussion.

you are far too extreme with your point of view on this topic.

Eli is a solid QB that has had great performances in some of the biggest games of his career. However, he was just bad in 2013 and it didn't help the offense...and that is not an opinion.

I, as much as anyone, would love to see a bounce-back season in 2014.

but that doesn't automatically equal an eminent decline either.

watch the last Super Bowl.

that was Eli's season in a nutshell.

they can put together. All these free agent moves and they have hardly done shit to fix the line. If Beatty bombs again his backup is a former 2nd rounder of the Saints who played in eight games 2011-12 and was benched for the final four games of 2013 for poor play. Placed on IR in 2011 and 2012. Just the way Reese likes 'em: chronically injured.

Their new center seriously injured his ankle four games into the 2012 season and has not seen the field since. He has had two surgeries on the ankle. Another Reese special.

And the return of Snee, a guy who is 4-5 in Vegas to be back on the sidelines, injured again, by week 4.

imminent decline

ELi had a horible year following a very bad year so now if he has another bad year people here will blame it on Ross's drafting what a joke.I thank Eli for the good years but I call it as I see it and their is no excuse for the horrible year Eli had ,Big Ben had no line and no recievers and he didn't throw the amount of picks Eli did.He has to take his share of the blame just because he gets rushed doesn't mean he has to throw a pick take the sack.I hear alot of excuses for Eli here like he had a great year throwing the ball alot of it wasn't his fault but he should take his share of blame and to put it only on everyone else is being ignorant of the facts and what you see.I see alot of blind loyalty here,I discount the scouts because they had it out for Eli for years but last year was no miraige and Eli had a bad year last year throwing the ball period,this year their plenty of blame to go around and more blame to go to wr and oline but Eli didn't perform well at all this year.I am rooting for him to bounce back too.

We do make a lot of excuses around he for Eli.

I'm not seeing the logic in what you're saying. Last year, Eli was one of the problems.

No open receivers ... check.
No running game ... check.
No blocking ... check.
Getting the living daylights smacked out of him play after play, week after week ... check.

In comment 11618860 Reese's Pieces said:

Quote:

they can put together. All these free agent moves and they have hardly done shit to fix the line. If Beatty bombs again his backup is a former 2nd rounder of the Saints who played in eight games 2011-12 and was benched for the final four games of 2013 for poor play. Placed on IR in 2011 and 2012. Just the way Reese likes 'em: chronically injured. Their new center seriously injured his ankle four games into the 2012 season and has not seen the field since. He has had two surgeries on the ankle. Another Reese special. And the return of Snee, a guy who is 4-5 in Vegas to be back on the sidelines, injured again, by week 4.

They did what they could. Manning is sucking down 1/6 of the cap himself. Where was there cap money to throw at top drawer free agent linemen? They are going to get him a big receiver in the draft. They got him a safety valve in Jennings. And sorry.

And besides, the o-line may not be the whole story. Brady was sacked one more time than Manning and threw 16 less picks. Alex Smith was sacked just as many times and threw 20 less picks. Big Ben was sacked 5 more times and threw 10 more td's and 14 fewer picks.

The Giants FO should be considering the possibility that Manning is getting old fast in their planning. Even Eli Manning cannot escape from the clutches of Father Time.

is now making its rounds among other national media outlets.

all over this thread.

2011 was likely a peak year, one that he may replicate again, but that shouldn't be the expected output from Eli. 2008-2010 Eli is realistic (and still quite good). Eli was bad the last half of 2012 too, it wasn't just last year. However, I have difficulty believing that Eli would so rapidly decline from top five QB in 2011 to bottom five QB in 2013.

And physically, I did think he lost a bit of zip on the ball towards the last season - but I don't have high confidence in that meaning anything (or that I'm even correct).

last season was a good barometer to tell. Perhaps he is, but with the O-line piss poor performance and the lack of an effective running game. Also with WR's underachieving, it's hard to tell.

I can understand believing that he can bounce back, but the childish "how dare you say he's in decline" attitudes are just plain silly. Not every QB plays at a high level into his late 30s. Taking a wait and see position is simply prudent.

In comment 11619230 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

I can understand believing that he can bounce back, but the childish "how dare you say he's in decline" attitudes are just plain silly. Not every QB plays at a high level into his late 30s. Taking a wait and see position is simply prudent.

This is right.

Greg, I think a lot of that has to do with being shell-shocked from the first four or five games.

Of course, I wonder what my opinion would be if I weren't a Giants fan. As Phil points out, we're biased. Eli's a weird player to analyze.

as he was previously, even when the pocket wasn't completely collapsed.

In comment 11619230 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

I can understand believing that he can bounce back, but the childish "how dare you say he's in decline" attitudes are just plain silly. Not every QB plays at a high level into his late 30s. Taking a wait and see position is simply prudent.

Agreed. To argue either side with any degree of certainty is rediculous.

IMO Eli's career is unusual, the quality of the Giants teams he's played for has been unusual and Tom Coughlin's track record has been unusual, and it's hard to really get an accurate gauge of any of the three. That's the biggest reason why I treasure my memories of the Parcells era more than the Coughlin era, I think. The wild fluctuations in performance in the past 8-9 years have been perplexing, even accounting for the two stunning championships.

from datapoints that were thrown off due to external factors. To what degree is the question. This will be an important year for the Giants, Eli.

In comment 11619256 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

IMO Eli's career is unusual, the quality of the Giants teams he's played for has been unusual and Tom Coughlin's track record has been unusual, and it's hard to really get an accurate gauge of any of the three. That's the biggest reason why I treasure my memories of the Parcells era more than the Coughlin era, I think. The wild fluctuations in performance in the past 8-9 years have been perplexing, even accounting for the two stunning championships.

Agreed, it's really been odd. Incredibly enjoyable, but odd. I was too young for Parcells, obviously, but that makes sense.

Quote:

Eli's a weird player to analyze.

In what way is he weird to analyze? Regarding what aspect?

In the sense that he's played so incredibly well in the biggest moments, but he's never really sustained that level of play for any length of time aside from 2011.

In comment 11619285 AnishPatel said:

Quote:

Quote: Eli's a weird player to analyze. In what way is he weird to analyze? Regarding what aspect?

Because he's a wildly inconsistent player. Not just game-to-game, but quarter-to-quarter. His ability to elevate his play in the fourth quarter is incredible.

He's, IMV, only been a top five regular season QB once but has put together two incredible post-season runs. After 2011, when it looks like he's in the truly elite class of QB's, he starts off incredibly hot in 2012 and then plays like shit in the last half of the year.

I think he makes the HOF off of his longevity and his two incredible runs. He's had an odd career.

the Giants COULD have concerns and not a fact that they do. It was also reported this morning that the Giants are seeing something they don't like with Nassib's throwing arm. They see something weird but the guy who said this was not sure weather it was a problem with the arm itself or his throwing style.

Probably a rumor thrown out to remove any potential opportunity for the Giants to trade him. But it does explain why they are bringing in all these QBs.

cant admit he played poorly last year. reese said it, coughlin said it, eli said it. accept it.
here is an article written 12-19-13 detailing eli's problems
Will Eli Manning Rebound from Nightmare 2013 Season? - ( New Window )

I think it's interesting. I never liked the system he was in from day 1. I think that caused bad habits such as not taking a sack. I'd rather him take a sack then force a throw. That's one aspect I loathe about him. His prone to idiotic decisions like the left handed throw to Boss in the endzone against the panthers. Just flat out assinine shit that should get you benched or yelled at.

He played like shit as well as the whole offense at the end of the 2012 season, which carried over into pre season, which carried over into the whole regular season. At the end of the 2012 season, I knew our offense had issues. But don't you find it interesting his "decline" from there on matched other current factors? Mainly our decline in draft classes which contributed to the team? How about just OL in general? Age, degradation of talent, and injuries all impacted out OL. We couldn't improve and have a seamless transition from those once solid 5 to the project picks, who in my estimation were supposed to develop and slide right in.

That didn't happen, and so we get this shit show of an offense. I find that people want to blame Eli, and rightly so, might I add but fail to see other conditions impacting the offense too.

Just look at the comments regarding Eli from this past year. Eli played like shit.. Well no kidding, Your OL can't pass block, run block, your X is useless, you're Z makes plays then accounts for 8 ints in which he is the target. You're fucking GM signs a WCO TE no considering system we run, and the so called "knife" Reese talked about in describing Murphy ended up stabbing Eli over and over.

So that accounts for the state of our offense. That caused Eli to do even more dumb shit than usual. Take a sack, and stop making shitty decisions. It was obvious he didn't trust his WRs, so if that's the case than I am glad we change systems.

does that mean in the event that the team around him performs well enough to take them places, that Eli will be the one holding them back? The Giants have no other choice other than to find out.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying, but this goes back long before this past season.

I completely agree - Eli's always been much more of a gunslinger/risk-taker than he's been given credit for. With nothing else on offense, it got worse - he knew he had to do it all, which caused even more errors than is typical. Last year was the perfect storm.

1. How appreciative we are as fans for the two magical SB runs.
2. The caliber of QB Eli has been over his career and will be going forward.

This type of shit goes back when Hufangel was hired. You see we don't go out of our way to help Eli. Like that fool having Eli throw 557 times, 2nd most in his career, when we had a stud RB in Barber in his prime. How the hell has their QB throw that any damn times when Tiki is in beast mode during those years?

So if you point to way before recent years, I agree. This shit both ways has been going on since Eli started for us. Like the Titans game where Hufangel had Eli keep throwing up 21 points. The game where Kiwi hugged Young, and didn't sack him.

This shit has been going on since Eli started a full since back in 2005.

I'm not knowledgable about Xs and Os to truly factor that into Eli's (and the Giants') track record. It does seem historically that the Giants have long been determined to run their offense a certain way come hell or high water, and have never really tried to tailor the offense to the personnel they've had.

In comment 11619365 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

I completely agree - Eli's always been much more of a gunslinger/risk-taker than he's been given credit for. With nothing else on offense, it got worse - he knew he had to do it all, which caused even more errors than is typical. Last year was the perfect storm.

I think Eli makes those throws out of need. In our system we run a lot of 5 and 7 step drops. The Wrs have to make sight adjustments and have to be on the same page with Eli.

We don't check down often. So if pressure is coming, or the internal clock goes off to get rid of it. You have to make a play. I have seen countless times our adjustments didn't work where the defender was in our hip pocket. So then what?
Throw the ball away? Take a sack? Try to fit it in?

I hated that so much. I hope Ben M. has more check downs. If Eli turned into Capt. Checkdown I'd love it. Do what Rivers did and get a high completion % doing that shit.

The question I have out side of personnel and focusing in on scheme are:

How much of screens will be implemented?
How will the RB be used in this offense?
Will they the sight adjustment rules for the slot WR stay the same? If not, then that might impact the productivity of JJ and Cruz.

There are a lot of questions I am happy to wait and see if they are answered this season. In the end, I've said this before, Eli and this offense has 1 year. Eli basically has a 2 years on his deal. Coaching staff has 2 years, but basically 1 since we don't let them coach on a lame duck year.

AR, RR, and Wilson contract expires 2015. All the other WRs and TEs have are in their contract years. So if we fuck up this year, our whole team could be impacted with the firing of our coaches to deciding to allow Eli to play through his contract, before letting him "earn the right to test free agency", which is a Reeseism I am starting to like. That's a polite way of saying, no thanks, test the market we don't want you back.

the Giants were 11th in passing yardage, 6th in rushing yardage, 9th in passing attempts, 11th in rushing attempts 8th in passing td's and 10th in rushing td's that year. As a team, we were 3rd in scoring and 4th in total yardage.

I know you have hated the offense but that "fool" Hufnagel had a very balanced and very, very potent offense when Eli threw 557 times.

Those are all excellent points. I agree, I'd love to see more check downs and higher percentage passes. I can't wait to see what McAdoo brings to the table. I liked KG, but think it was time for a change.

In comment 11619256 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

IMO Eli's career is unusual, the quality of the Giants teams he's played for has been unusual and Tom Coughlin's track record has been unusual, and it's hard to really get an accurate gauge of any of the three. That's the biggest reason why I treasure my memories of the Parcells era more than the Coughlin era, I think. The wild fluctuations in performance in the past 8-9 years have been perplexing, even accounting for the two stunning championships.

Well said. I agree. Even when dominating, the Giants never made you feel comfortable that they would win. They could go from dominant and great to awful or vice versa, within the course of a season, month or even game (philly 2010 game).

keeps talking about this "cap relief" like we so desperately needed it because we couldn't sign anybody. Only 2 teams signed more guys than we did. Re-structuring would have just pushed more money down the line. You only do that as a last resort. It's a lazy argument and even lazier to draw conclusions from that fact.

to trade up for pick 12.

rumor control game is not in decline then

No shit, yet through all that his ass was shown the door. Now was the hell did that happen? Hufangel sucked as a coach. I know the stats thanks.

If I am not mistaken stat wise Lewis did well too. Where the fuck is he now? Both were shitty coordinators.

He barely lasted here. What from 2004-2007 off season, until Gilbride took over. We could have eased Eli in and ran the ball a hell of a lot more. Ben had Whisenhunt, Rivers had Cam Cameron and we had this guy who I couldn't stand. In fact, I preferred Gilbride over Hufangel. I was happy he got promoted. I think in one of the giants books, maybe the Accorsi book, Hufangel was mentioned in a negative light. I remember someone posted that here. Perhaps it was Eric, it was a while ago.

Eli had success once Hufangel was fired and Gilbride took over. In fact a lot of the formations used changed as well as documented by my game breakdowns.

I don't think HomerJones45 has have criticized or blamed a coach - not even Sheridan.

He's never criticized a coach on Coughlin's staff. Somehow Gene lost the ability to find fault with coaches when Fassel was canned.

In comment 11620157 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

He's never criticized a coach on Coughlin's staff. Somehow Gene lost the ability to find fault with coaches when Fassel was canned.

Ah, got it - that was before my time here. Thanks.

I don't know the guy. Has he posted anything worth reading on BBI?

This was an article from 2005. I remember this time period because I questioned why we threw more at times when we could have relied on Tiki. I never liked both coordinators Coughlin hired in Hufangel and Tim Lewis.
An Erratic Manning Puts the Giants on Blue Alert - ( New Window )

In comment 11620132 Phil in LA said:

Quote:

to trade up for pick 12.

Agree.

Nobody but nobody has been able to explain to me what would have been a good season for Eli last year. 5 less interceptions? How about 50% less interceptions and twice the number of sacks? From what I read here, I think some people think the answer is "yes". That's just pure dumb and dumber in a season that started out 0-6 and continued with no running game and the WR just got worse, not better. But sure, heck, Eli, don't try to win games, just take the sacks and your fan base will be happy.

Likewise, nobody here has been able to tell me what year Brady (or Andrew Luck) would have had if he was the QB for the 2013 Giants. Would it have been better than Eli? Based upon what? But is anyone here ready to say Andrew Luck is done or on the decline? I promise you this - if Andrew Luck was the QB of the 2013 Giants, he would have sucked big dick. He would have looked like his career was over. Because you can't look good with ... no blocking - no receivers - and no running backs. I mean seriously. What do you expect Andrew Luck to do? Fly?

The idea that Manning threw bad balls when he had protection is, once again, irrelevant. Andrew Luck probably would have been home in bed crying before he went 0-6 without any offense line. Point being - you get happy feet when you have no protection. Fans see clean blocking on TV and assume that Manning should some how realize that this particular play the rush isn't coming. But that isn't how it works. He doesn't know. Play to play. He just doesn't know. He has to trust his blockers and rely on his internal clock on when to get rid of the ball. And when you have no offensive line, that clock goes haywire.

And when you have no offense line AND no running backs AND no wide receivers - I don't give a crap what you guys say - but Brady, Andrew Luck, Peyton Maning - any pocket quarterback is going to have a horrible season. Again, just a whole bunch of stupid on here.

I recently read an article that was linked somewhere here on BBI. It talked about a statistic for QB decision making. Basically it was a percentage of plays where the QB made a bad decision regardless of the outcome of the play. I t might hav ebeen a FOotball Outsiders stat, not sure.

However the stat was that in 2012 Eli had a 2.8 rate of bad decisions. In 2013 he had a rate of 2.4. So it actually went down. Bottom line is that all the interceptions had more to do with the overall team suckitude than Eli himself.

This actually makes sense to me. I think as the wheels came off Eli became more and more conservative. Whereas in the past he was willing to be more of a gunslinger because he felt that the offense was good enough to overcome the occasional bad outcome. But as he lost confidence in the offense, and as he lost confidence in his receivers he took fewer chances, threw the ball away more, and took more sacks.

Right now, I think Eli is still Eli, and as long as he has a decent supporting cast, the offense will hum around him. Problem is, I don't think he has a decent supporting cast yet. Better than it was, but there was nowhere to go but up.

next year this time, after Manning has a more "normal" Manning year and the level of critics have returned to a more "normal" level, what we will hear from many on BBI is that it was McAdoo's system that "saved" Manning.

Well - as far in advance as possible - I'm calling Bull Shit on that too. Manning never changed. He is what he has always been (and what most QB are). They need a supporting cast. Manning will be the same Manning next year as he was in 2013, but nobody will complain because the supporting cast will be better and everyone will say "See, I knew he could come back". Well BULL SHIT to that too. He never left.

last year as per your earlier comments.

So why do you now need us to tell you what a "good" season for Eli would have been?

Using your logic Eli seems to get better the more interceptions he throws...

In comment 11620282 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

last year as per your earlier comments. So why do you now need us to tell you what a "good" season for Eli would have been? Using your logic Eli seems to get better the more interceptions he throws...

Jimmy, what I said is that nobody can tell me what kind of season Manning had. Not you or anyone else. How do you evaluate a QB who has no blocking, no running back and no receivers? Measure his performance against what kind of base?

I liked what I saw of Manning last year from the stand point that I think he did what he could to help the team win against all odds and at his own personal sacrifice statistically. That is what I've said. But I've not said he played fantastic - because I've tried - OVER AND OVER to make the point that NOBODY in the media or on BBI has any basis to measure his performance last year.

This isn't difficult stuff. It just takes a tiny bit of common sense.

solid WRs & TEs and a good offensive line, and Eli puts up 4000+ yards, 30 TDs and 10 ints), how do we know Eli had a great year?

How do we know it wasn't everyone else overperforming and Eli was just along for the ride, and potentially left the team short-changed at numerous times?

In fact, how do we truly know anything at all in the world as long as there are people who can come up with unanswerable questions in an effort to make a big deal out something that is as plain as the nose on your face?

In comment 11620362 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

solid WRs & TEs and a good offensive line, and Eli puts up 4000+ yards, 30 TDs and 10 ints), how do we know Eli had a great year? How do we know it wasn't everyone else overperforming and Eli was just along for the ride, and potentially left the team short-changed at numerous times? In fact, how do we truly know anything at all in the world as long as there are people who can come up with unanswerable questions in an effort to make a big deal out something that is as plain as the nose on your face?

Believe what you want. I'll save this thread and we'll talk when you eat crow shit one year from today.

Our debate is simply about the fact that you think Eli played really well in 2013 and I don't.

I hope, AND EXPECT, Eli to do better in 2014 for numerous reasons, including the premise that I am not sure he can play any worse.

The Giants had SIX starting RBs last year. Cox was a rookie, Hillis & BJ were picked up in the middle of the season (& BJ lasted, what, 3 games & can't catch a cold 8 times out of 10 anyhow), Scott sucks & Wilson was still unable to learn his passing assignments to be trusted passing to him. Expecting plug & play all year with many inexperienced players unfamiliar with the system to be successful is what's stupid.

Sacks are also not the only measure of how often Eli was under pressure. I'd be surprised if he wasn't knocked down & had more pressures than Brady, Smith & Big Ben.

In comment 11617498 SBlue46 said:

Quote:

Said a month or 2 ago.. He wouldnt rule out a qb In draft...not signing eli Is smart..he actually had 2 bad years..and I think if they Sign Flynn. .he is a backup That can start...if not 12th pick could be a qb.. Manning will want 25mil And 4 year guarantee.. I think that is not wise.. Oline and new offense..will Demand more mobile qb..and Mac said screens will be Most important in his offense And eli has been horrible Screen qb...could be end

This is like reading Beowulf. What a great poem.

Word wrap is your friend.

In comment 11620377 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

Our debate is simply about the fact that you think Eli played really well in 2013 and I don't. I hope, AND EXPECT, Eli to do better in 2014 for numerous reasons, including the premise that I am not sure he can play any worse.

Maybe we argue because you refuse to listen. I didn't say Eli played great. I said it was impossible to evaluate how he played because there wasn't a football team around him.

As for how Eli looked? He LOOKED horrible. Any ten year old can make that simplistic assessment. That's the only assessment you've made. You've not taken it to the level of WHY. Nor can you. Because it isn't possible to know why he looked bad. Was any of it Eli? How much? How do you OBJECTIVELY measure that?

In comment 11620362 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

solid WRs & TEs and a good offensive line, and Eli puts up 4000+ yards, 30 TDs and 10 ints), how do we know Eli had a great year?

Because, in a team sport like football, it is very difficult - if not impossible - to measure individual performances. The only way you can measure them is when you have at least a semblance of normalcy in your team. Some blocking, some running game and some passing game.

The way you talk, you'd expect teams to bring in a QB for a tryout and give him no protection, no receivers, and sack him every single pass attempt - in order to evaluate his skill set. Frankly, that's a stupid and idiotic thought. The only way you can evaluate players is when they are surrounded with a functioning and performing cast. Even then, it is very difficult in the best of times to know how much to credit the QB vs the WR vs the OL etc. But, if you even had a clue about football, you'd already know that.

Moving forward, I'll let Gilbride take it from here. Wish he'd come post so you could make your ludicrous arguments to him (or whatever phrase Gilbride used). But, for me, since all you appear capable of evaluating is the fact Eli didn't look good - without the ability to understand there are reasons for that - it's no longer worth having a conversation.

i figured you jumped off that ledge.

one bad O-line does not = QB decline and 1 possibly bad coach does not = Decline. Let's see what the kid does this year before making a snap decision.