be it teaching, business or sports. basically - anywhere.
the problem with the drafting process is that there are about 30 people intimate to the system who have very passionate opinions - often with immense amounts of personal credibility on the line. i don't know who all carries more weight in the war room but clearly the "process" of evaluation hasn't been particularly good for the past five years. there has been something fundamentally wrong with the judgement folks have used to make decisions. less than ideal choices for a year or two are hard to measure long term - but an unsettling pattern has developed. perhaps the "no more projects" mantra will tip the balance. let's hope. but i'm not holding my breath.
as i said in an earlier post, i believe the critical decision this year will revolve around the first pick because that choice will inform the strategy the team will use for the next three. after that, you grab who you can in the later rounds (aka "projects") and get on the phone with all the free agent who never got a call. so i think how the first pick strategy plays out will be the most fascinating. and perhaps that is why reese has been even more obtuse than usual so as not to tip his hand.
for my money, BPA has always been a bit of a myth because its never only how talented player x performs in a vacuum. it has to be about the context - and plan - he fits into.
the giants aren't normally a team to quickly cut bait (notable exception: ray handley....oooo....gives me the shakes to even write that) but i'd bet the ranch that if the 2014 team doesn't perform well - and if there aren't at least 5 materially consistent contributing members of the new draft class - our GM is going to be looking for work elsewhere next year. though i love him, coughlin will likely be gone too but that's implicitly been in the cards for a while.
so the pressure is on as it hasn't been recently. this is probably part of the reason the team has been so aggressive with the FAs - though there are certainly some "wish and prayer" individuals on that list as well.
IMO, the results of the upcoming draft will either markedly improve reese's standing (and leverage) for the next half decade or will print him out a pink slip.
has been Carr/Painter, how can any rational poster say that backup QB was not a need? Now, whether Nassib will fill that need is debatable, but it's equally irrational to write off any player after 1 year.
How many players got away that we're pining over? LJo. I'm sure there's one or two more, but not enough to cry about.
Injury is only a limited excuse. Many here felt Sintim was going to fail here regardless of injury. Austin got sidetracked by his injury, but not derailed. He's derailed because he doesn't have what it takes to make it in the NFL.
Overall, the article merely states what is blatantly obvious: our young talent isn't there to replace aging vets. Rationalize it all you want, but that's a basic reality. For every SSmith or KP who have been permanently derailed by injury, there's probably 2 of a Barden, Austin or a JJ (who is actually listed as a success) who have done nothing of note.
all have some degree of validity. I think the un-named source who mentioned that the Giants needed to make safer choices from the power conferences was Parcells. That's my guess. With regard to the "project" issue, there is a similarity in what they've been doing that is reminiscent to the era of Freeman White, Rich Glover etc. Those were different days. 17 choices, a still segregated South. A decidedly non uniform data base. But as with all endeavors catching lightening in a bottle once (JPP) can lead to institutional arrogance. A smug arrogance I'd add. And I don't include the HC in that comment. Or the Tish's. It is meant for Mara & Reese. If everybody wants to fob this off on Ross, as the excuse-makers strongly suggest, then sack him.
He's highly regarded around the league..Some of you make pronouncements without(apparently) being fully aware of how this team operates..
TC was being fired after 2006, then he wasn't. Then he was on thin ice, then he wasn't...
"Killdrive" was gone, then he "won" a SB, then he was gone and he "won" another SB..Finally, after 10 years he was gone, presumably because it was time to retire..
Unless you're egregiously incompetent and out of your element(Sheridan and Hufnagle for example), the Giants don't get rid of you post haste..This new regime(John Mara) is patient and does not capitulate to the media or a fan message board..Everyone wants Quinn gone, yet the Giants believe there are reasons why his units shit the bed..They have film. They know who missed assignments. They know who was supposed to be where..
You don't need to be an X's and O's guru to be keenly aware of how the process works or a given team functions..
is plenty evident in the FA dealings, too. Rave all you want about how we've had such a great offseason, but there's a lot of question marks: Mario, Walton, pretty much any of the OL not named Schwartz, etc. They're not 'projects' per se, but they are a gamble sort of in the same line of thinking: "we're going to outsmart everyone else by going for potential rather than playing it safe"
many screw ups. Too much drafting of guys who didn't fit our system, projects, guys with character concerns, and position switchers. Sintim, Becku, Robinson, Barden, Petrus, Austin, Brewer, McCants, and the whole '09 draft except for Beatty and Nicks.
How about Sash, Mosley, Dillard, Jones, and the infamous Matt Dodge? The Giants took Wilson even though Cordy Glenn was apparently ranked higher on their board. Jernigan hasn't produced much, and there are many others. Even JPP was a big gamble.
Remember also that Reese wanted to draft Heyward-Bey, not Nicks, and Dwayne Jarrett instead of Steve Smith.
All of this has destroyed our depth, which meant we had to keep aging veterans like Diehl and Snee longer than we should, as well as overpay for Beatty and Baas. That messed with the cap.
If there is any silver lining it's that the 2013 draft class appears decent, assuming that Moore develops. Taylor and Herman will hopefully at least develop into solid ST players and backups. If all that happens, the draft will be a success.
As I have said, Reese needs to stop swinging for the fences, and stop drafting "high ceiling, "low floor," guys. This year that means saying no to Hageman, Barr, Lewan, Tuitt, Nix, etc. Go for the "high floor" "low ceiling" guys, at least through round four. Healthy players with proven production, and no character concerns. That means Donald, Martin, Jones, etc. This is also the year for a trade down, even if we don't get full value as per the draft chart.
This is the most important draft of his tenure IMO.
RE: Nassib is a total wasted pick, he looked horrible in camp last Â
year. I see no way he is Eli's backup this year. no way
I don't know how you can possibly sit through the crapfest of last season and that horrible offensive line and then blame ANY QB that played behind it for being awful last season. And then completely discount the fact that a raw rookie QB had to learn one of the most complicated offenses behind that awful line.
Of course Nassib looked horrible in camp. So did Eli. How can you possibly know what he's capable of based on what you saw and read last season? The dude was running for his life every time he snapped the freaking ball.
I'm already on record as saying Reese is on thin ice and predicting he's only got limited time left (limited being a slippery slope. I'm certainly not predicting tomorrow). Regardless of rings, or the past, or how well he is/was regarded around the league, we now have a team that is nearing bottom of the barrel ( a decline he presided over) and now it's his job to rebuild it. The betting now is on whether he's up to the job, or not. I'm betting he's not. You really think Mara is going to keep a guy who presided over a decline, and then couldn't turn it around? On the other hand, if I'm wrong, and JR is up to the job, he stays.
sometimes it seems as though they do a little too much of the bargain shopping. I know there have been issues with the cap but that is their fault as well.
but that's not a well written piece - it hammers the same theme over and over like a dead horse - there's not a lot of content in there - and it could have been said in a paragraph, two at most - as opposed repetitive accusation over and over. Let me say I don't appreciate relentless pounding - and that may be the foundation of what people are reacting to above. I much more appreciate perspective - and there is no perspective in his piece only hammering the point.
I'm gonna make a some perspective points - It's true - the Giants have only 4 draft picks left from the years that span the two Super Bowl wins, but I would argue a couple of things:
1- that with deep teams, deep enough to be Superbowl winning teams, the Giants may have given up on draft picks, whereas other teams may not have, and both rewarded and stuck with veteran producers in lieu of keeping draft picks
2- that they also have made some scores with UDFAs that also stacked the roster in deference to draftees
3- that camp has become a true competition between Vets, Draftees, FAs and UDFA's
4- that Reese has adapted his style over the years and not wholly relied on any one area of acquisition - and unlike past years and GMs, he has been quicker to make difficult personnel decisions and cuts
5- that while today's cap rewards good drafting - it also rewards good UDFA pickups and shrewd FA pickups - and limiting large splash contracts - which this FO has become quite adept at it.
6- If you look at two teams that heavily rely on the draft to built their roster, have franchise QBs, and are well known for their drafting prowess and discipline - i.e. The Packers and The Steelers - you will see two teams that have more of their draft picks on the roster - yet may be in even worse shape than the Giants personnel wise right now - and certainly have been close to the Giants record wise in the past five years.
7- It's possible that the draft talent available has a lower success rate than you think across the board in the NFL
8- This front office has shown a propensity for high risk pickups - and with the high risk they have had a higher number of stars show up and play - at the cost of depth. This has led to delivering the thrills in two of the last seven years - but also the lows when risks didn't pan out like Marvin Austin, Ramses Barden, Phillip Dillard, Clint Sintim,Travis Beckhum, and deferring the drafting of Olineman to later in the draft for higher risk skill players.
9- If you look at the top three picks of the Giants from 2007-the present - I think you see a better rate of success than Mr O'Connor is suggesting:
2007
Aaron Ross, Steve Smith, Jay Alford (all were key producers)
2008
Kenny Phillips, Terrell Thomas, Mario Manningham (all were key producers)
2009
Hakeem Nicks, Clint Sintim, William Beatty (2 key producers - 1 bust)
2010
JPP, Linval Joseph, No third Rounder, Phillip Dillard (2 key producers - 1 Bust)
2011
Prince Amukamara, Marvin Austin, Jerrel Jernigan (1 key producer, 1 bust, 1 maybe)
2012
David Wilson, Ruben Randle, Jayron Hosely (all have shown flashes - but decision pending)
2013
Justin Pugh, Jonathan Hankins, Damontre Moore (1 producer, two promising players showing flashes)
I count 3 busts out of 21 premium draft position draftees in 7 years of drafting - that is well above average in my opinion
is not the problem. Even if he doesn't work out, it was a good gamble by Reese. Many teams had Nassib as a low first or high second round pick. We got him for a fourth and a sixth. He wasn't some massive reach or project. In fact, he was the exact opposite.
That is often touted but never questioned is VERSATILITY.
Everyone has heard the old adage "jack of all trades, master of none". I think this insidious little monster has had a way of biting the Giants, but the "brass" chooses to ignore the pain.
John Mara is so right about "projects". This goes right to the point of drafting guys like Ramses Barden (who is my personal biggest heartbreaker). BBI used to hate him because he was from a small school and he wasn't fast, but that's not the reason he failed ….
His personal work-out tape (Marine Corps style) was amazing; he was consistently a human highlight film in camp. He had all the tools, except for the most important one for a football player - he hated getting dirty.
And finally, the most important factor in the Giants' failures is not listening to the Old Man enough - Tom Coughlin. Tom is the Ultimate Systems Man (much like his mentor - Bill Parcells). He knows what to do and the type of players he needs.
(He built a winner in a very short time at JAX, (but failed only when hard times came and he turned into a hard-ass). Recall, he tried the same thing here, but Michael Strahan saved him).
Reese is the better Pro Personnel guy and businessman; Tom the better evaluator and team builder.
Max Unger and Wilson over Cordy Glenn are the key head scratchers for me.
I view the recent OL problems( say past 2 years) as a calculated gamble that failed. Reese gambled that (i) Snee and Baas would recover and be healthy and(ii) that one of Petrus,Koets,Cordle,Brewer,Mosley,McCants etc would develop and be a decent player. It didn't work out, x 3.
I don't blame Reese for drafting Austin or Beckum. Many thought those were good picks at the time.2014 is the deepest class in 10+ years and Reese needs to hit a homer on at least the first 3 picks, if not 4.
but I think it's getting overrated here. There are only so many players with a draftable grade and of those players, there's only so many you can pick. And let's not forget the further along you go, there's less of a chance that player sticks to your team, let alone sticks in the NFL. Shocking I know, but it's not like this only applies to the Giants.
Quote:
No one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes, but having only eight players remain from 39 selections from 2007-11 (20.5 percent) is one of the reasons the team had 23 holes to fill this offseason.
I took the same years in Connor's article (07-11) and applied it to the SB Champs, the Seattle Seahawks. In those 5 drafts they had 40 picks. How many are still with the team? 11 (27.5 percent) or 3 more than what the Giants have. Of those 11, 6 were taken within the first two rounds. Their most important piece, Russell Wilson, didn't come until 2012. I wonder how many of those players will still be on the team when Wilson is no longer on his rookie contract and one of the highest paid players in the league, just like Eli is now.
Which brings me to my next point. The Giants didn't struggle to fill holes because of the draft since again, their record isn't unique to every other team in the NFL. It's cap space, a problem every team with a top notch QB goes through, but especially the Giants since Eli had the highest cap number in the league. Not to mention the cap numbers of several other aging, oft-injured, underperforming veterans we carried for the past few years. However that's an argument for another day.
Quote:
Injuries have ruined some once-promising careers. Ahmad Bradshaw, Kevin Boss, Steve Smith, Terrell Thomas, and Kenny Phillips immediately come to mind. But mostly there has been simply poor drafting.
I don't get this part. If anything it goes against the article. We got 6 seasons out of a 7th round RB who became a starter, fought through several injuries, scored the game winning TD in SB46 for us and through his own mental and physical toughness, is still in the league. How many RBs play 6 seasons period, no matter the round? The other 4 are currently without a team (although T2 is still looking for a contract), not because of lack of talent, but because of devastating injuries. With the exception of Boss, they were 1st and 2nd rd picks with great Pro Bowl/All-Pro potential. How many other teams went through this, not to mention Chad Jones, over that period? How different would the outlook be if this never happened?
Lastly as someone else mentioned, you cant's talk about JR's draft record without speaking about what he's gotten out of UDFA's, especially Victor Cruz, Hyno and yes even Herzlich who is one of our better ST players. All 3 contributed to a Super Bowl winning season.
Every team has their kneejerk reaction part of their fan base, some bigger than others. As a Met fan, I can relate. But as frustrating as last season was, we still have one of the best GM's in American sports and in the one with the most disparity as far as player personnel, movement and injury risk goes. Although I can always question a pick here or there, I'm glad we have Jerry Reese and not just because of the two rings since '07, something no other team can say. Call me optimistic but I think barring any major injury, our future is bright.
is not the problem. Even if he doesn't work out, it was a good gamble by Reese. Many teams had Nassib as a low first or high second round pick. We got him for a fourth and a sixth. He wasn't some massive reach or project. In fact, he was the exact opposite.
Then how did he make it to the 4th round when QB is the most important position on the field by a wide margin?
What i'm not understanding is this, those saying he is one of the best GM's in the league but want to compare his drafts to other teams. If they are comparable, wouldn't that mean that he is on par with everyone else.
Saying he is the best GM in the sport or league means his drafts, FA signings, etc, is ABOVE everyone else..
There is no professional sport with more disparity than professional football and in his seven years he's won two rings. How many GMs/Team Presidents in any sport can say that?
we've won two rings in large part because Eli & the defense (esp Tuck) Â
got hot at the right time. Reese didn't draft either of those guys. We weren't the best team in football all year in either year. I'm not saying he didn't do a good job his first couple of drafts, but Eli and Tuck were not his players.
Pitt can say that..I think the red Sox can say that..
Plus, let's be hones hear, The 2 Sb teams were not some Superior talented teams that rolled the the season beating everyone..
I bet if you were to poll writers about the best GM's in sports, Reese probably wouldn't be in the top ten. Not because he's doesn't do a good job, The Giants themselves have been considered teams that got "hot" at the right team..
We all wanted to think that Reese had it, becausee he looked so good in the beginning, but regression towards the mean has caught up with him. He just doesn't have any special talent for drafting. It's not the end of the world.
I do think he should study his mistakes. In the mid-rounds he seems to takes alot more risks than others. The senior year injury/IR (Beckum,Austin), the untested physical attributes (Barden,Robinson) and a few tweeners (Simtim,Beckum again).
He doesn't seem to like taking players with tape that may show a weakness. There are reasons why they are still available in the middle rounds. I think Reese should be more cognizant of that, and emphasize players with tape over players with potential. It may not create homeruns, but could improve his average.
what difference does it make WHY we won those SBs? Winning, especially nowadays is about parity and getting hot at the right time. It also takes a TON OF BREAKS to get to, much less win a SB..If it was sheer talent the Niners would have 3 back o bck to back trophies..
All you hope for is to be in the mix and let clutch play and coaching bring home the hardware..
If it was just talent-based, Dallas, SF, Colts, Falcons(before last year) and even the Pats would have a lot more trophies to show for it..
what difference does it make WHY we won those SBs? Winning, especially nowadays is about parity and getting hot at the right time. It also takes a TON OF BREAKS to get to, much less win a SB..If it was sheer talent the Niners would have 3 back o bck to back trophies..
All you hope for is to be in the mix and let clutch play and coaching bring home the hardware..
If it was just talent-based, Dallas, SF, Colts, Falcons(before last year) and even the Pats would have a lot more trophies to show for it..
You know...this is spot on.
Keep in mind though, Reese can really only control the talent-portion which is the biggest factor in winning more games than you lose.
True, Eli and Tuck weren't his players but the Giants don't make SB42 WITHOUT the players he did bring in. Of the 8 players drafted that year, the only player that didn't contribute to the SB run was Adam Koets. That's without mentioning Michael Matthews, another Reese UDFA, who was a very good blocking TE for us.
Offseason acquisitions include Lawrence Tynes and Kawika Mitchell. Right before the start of that season we claimed Kevin Boothe off of waivers. During the season we signed Dave Tollefson, Domenik Hixon, Madison Hedgecock and Danny Ware.
So in his first season as GM there were several players he inherited, however I'm sure he was instrumental in getting alot of them too considering his 13 previous years with the team. But the contributions he did add that first year has plenty to do with why we got hot at the right time. That's what makes him a good GM.
But I don't think it properly frames the issues with the Giants.
Looking at all of the players acquired by the Giants through the draft, I would say that out of all the ones that departed the team the vast majority of them either had serious health concerns after suffering significant injuries, or were let go because they performed very well but were not worth their asking price when it came time for a new contract.
The only relevant question we should be asking in terms of how we should be evaluating the GM's performance with draft selections is: how many players who were drafted in the last 7 years are no longer with the team specifically due to poor performance? In my opinion, I don't think it's very many at all.
Everyone wants Quinn gone, yet the Giants believe there are reasons why his units shit the bed..They have film. They know who missed assignments. They know who was supposed to be where..
That does little to comfort me, because there's really no evidence that the Giants as a team are competent at any special teams endeavor. That includes analyzing tape of it.
Newsome did not draft Ray Lewis, Ed Reed or Anquan Boldin who absolutely were keys to them winning another SB. It happens. Does SF GM get criticized because J Smith, C Rodgers, A Brooks or G, Dorsey were not drafted by the Niners.
There is not a GM who has drafted better in the 1st 2 rounds since he has been drafting. He has missed on 2 picks in those rounds. Sintim was a terrible pick because of system. Austin was boom or bust.
Newsome has drafted the following 1st & 2nd round players: K. Boller, Dwan Edwards, D. Cody, S. Kindle, A. Terry, T. Cody, M. Oher, M. Clayton
his 3rd rd picks:Musa Smith, Devard Darling, Yamon Figures, David Pittman, Tavaras Gooden, Oneil Cousins, T. Zibkowski, Ed Dickson, Jah Reid,
He is genius though and an expert at drafting and Reese sucks. Ted Thomson is no different nor is Pittsburgh. Belichik has been awful at drafting
You find players after the 3rd round you get lucky - period. Complaining about 4th-7th rd picks is ridiculous when 2/3 of these guys don't make the NFL at all
that Reeese is viewed around the league as one of the top GMs? I'm not saying he isn't but that has been stated several times and I don't understand where it comes from, other than some poster's personal opinions, or one anonymous quote posted here from 2009.
As with other things we've heard through the media and other outlets, it's all made up..
Reese is average amd benefitted by star alignment/good fortune..Unfortunately, most other GMs do not have his luck or fortuitiveness..Definitely not in Newsome's class, for example..
How do you measure the comptency of a General Manager? Â
... Is it drafting? free agent signings? organizational infrastructure? coaching oversight? number of playoff appearances?
Wasn't it Parcells who said that "you're only as good as your record says you are?
So Reese has been the GM for 7 seasons. He's presided over two World Championship teams and has had a winning record in 6 of his 7 seasons.
However, his teams have only made the playoffs in three of his seven years. That blurs the picture for me.
Hard to dispute that Jerry Reese is a successful General manager. In my mind you cannot make reach any categorical conclusions about him until:
a) he selects his own coach;
b) selects his own QB to lead the franchise;
Amazingly, he has done neither yet. Its a big year for him because he will feeling some real heat if they don't make the playoffs.
Until he does one of the above two things, you almost have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Look around the league. Give me some better GM candidates and then the discussion begins.
Again, I am not saying JR is not a good GM, but saying "he is widely viewed around the league as one of the best" isn't an argument, it's an opinion. I asked what the opinion was based on, not whether it was true or not.
But if its easier to say then that anyone who questions it must believe he sucks, well then I don't know what to say.
this is a very selective board..Depending on one's POV on anything Giants, where you heard or read something only matters if it SUPPORTS your opinion. If not, it's "don't believe everything you read or hear..Besides, what else is he going to say?"
So, here goes my selective POV..Aside from seeing what has transpired in the main since Reese has taken over, I have read through the years articles by respected(to me) writers who claim to have heard from other GMs and personnel people that Reese is highly regarded. This has been echoed by Such reapected people as Pioli, Polian, Kirwan, Belichick as well as other guests on Sirius. Personally, my fan criteria has been, who has done a better OVERALL job? It's subjective in many ways, but to me two championships in recent years is all that matters..It is one of the hardest things to accomplish in all of sports no matter how you got there and how you fared, imo..
I'm not trying to call you out. I've heard the same comments about Reese on Sirius, but honestly I have heard those same people complement a lot of coaches and GMs I think we could all agree are far from the best in the league.
Reese has had his moments and definitely done a lot of things well, but there is also plenty of evidence that he is far from infallible - the 2009 draft being one example.
I've been saying that for awhile now, that Reese is imperfect; that he has his warts..I'm just not willing to overlook his body of work since he started helping out Accorsi with Draft stuff when he was hired in 2002..
He is evaluated by how well he constructs a team for his coach. If that means taking risks in the later rounds of the draft and using FAs to fill the gaps, so be it. Its a strategy, nothing more.
the problem with the drafting process is that there are about 30 people intimate to the system who have very passionate opinions - often with immense amounts of personal credibility on the line. i don't know who all carries more weight in the war room but clearly the "process" of evaluation hasn't been particularly good for the past five years. there has been something fundamentally wrong with the judgement folks have used to make decisions. less than ideal choices for a year or two are hard to measure long term - but an unsettling pattern has developed. perhaps the "no more projects" mantra will tip the balance. let's hope. but i'm not holding my breath.
as i said in an earlier post, i believe the critical decision this year will revolve around the first pick because that choice will inform the strategy the team will use for the next three. after that, you grab who you can in the later rounds (aka "projects") and get on the phone with all the free agent who never got a call. so i think how the first pick strategy plays out will be the most fascinating. and perhaps that is why reese has been even more obtuse than usual so as not to tip his hand.
for my money, BPA has always been a bit of a myth because its never only how talented player x performs in a vacuum. it has to be about the context - and plan - he fits into.
the giants aren't normally a team to quickly cut bait (notable exception: ray handley....oooo....gives me the shakes to even write that) but i'd bet the ranch that if the 2014 team doesn't perform well - and if there aren't at least 5 materially consistent contributing members of the new draft class - our GM is going to be looking for work elsewhere next year. though i love him, coughlin will likely be gone too but that's implicitly been in the cards for a while.
so the pressure is on as it hasn't been recently. this is probably part of the reason the team has been so aggressive with the FAs - though there are certainly some "wish and prayer" individuals on that list as well.
IMO, the results of the upcoming draft will either markedly improve reese's standing (and leverage) for the next half decade or will print him out a pink slip.
How many players got away that we're pining over? LJo. I'm sure there's one or two more, but not enough to cry about.
Injury is only a limited excuse. Many here felt Sintim was going to fail here regardless of injury. Austin got sidetracked by his injury, but not derailed. He's derailed because he doesn't have what it takes to make it in the NFL.
Overall, the article merely states what is blatantly obvious: our young talent isn't there to replace aging vets. Rationalize it all you want, but that's a basic reality. For every SSmith or KP who have been permanently derailed by injury, there's probably 2 of a Barden, Austin or a JJ (who is actually listed as a success) who have done nothing of note.
TC was being fired after 2006, then he wasn't. Then he was on thin ice, then he wasn't...
"Killdrive" was gone, then he "won" a SB, then he was gone and he "won" another SB..Finally, after 10 years he was gone, presumably because it was time to retire..
Unless you're egregiously incompetent and out of your element(Sheridan and Hufnagle for example), the Giants don't get rid of you post haste..This new regime(John Mara) is patient and does not capitulate to the media or a fan message board..Everyone wants Quinn gone, yet the Giants believe there are reasons why his units shit the bed..They have film. They know who missed assignments. They know who was supposed to be where..
You don't need to be an X's and O's guru to be keenly aware of how the process works or a given team functions..
That is my view
How about Sash, Mosley, Dillard, Jones, and the infamous Matt Dodge? The Giants took Wilson even though Cordy Glenn was apparently ranked higher on their board. Jernigan hasn't produced much, and there are many others. Even JPP was a big gamble.
Remember also that Reese wanted to draft Heyward-Bey, not Nicks, and Dwayne Jarrett instead of Steve Smith.
All of this has destroyed our depth, which meant we had to keep aging veterans like Diehl and Snee longer than we should, as well as overpay for Beatty and Baas. That messed with the cap.
If there is any silver lining it's that the 2013 draft class appears decent, assuming that Moore develops. Taylor and Herman will hopefully at least develop into solid ST players and backups. If all that happens, the draft will be a success.
As I have said, Reese needs to stop swinging for the fences, and stop drafting "high ceiling, "low floor," guys. This year that means saying no to Hageman, Barr, Lewan, Tuitt, Nix, etc. Go for the "high floor" "low ceiling" guys, at least through round four. Healthy players with proven production, and no character concerns. That means Donald, Martin, Jones, etc. This is also the year for a trade down, even if we don't get full value as per the draft chart.
This is the most important draft of his tenure IMO.
I don't know how you can possibly sit through the crapfest of last season and that horrible offensive line and then blame ANY QB that played behind it for being awful last season. And then completely discount the fact that a raw rookie QB had to learn one of the most complicated offenses behind that awful line.
Of course Nassib looked horrible in camp. So did Eli. How can you possibly know what he's capable of based on what you saw and read last season? The dude was running for his life every time he snapped the freaking ball.
I'm gonna make a some perspective points - It's true - the Giants have only 4 draft picks left from the years that span the two Super Bowl wins, but I would argue a couple of things:
1- that with deep teams, deep enough to be Superbowl winning teams, the Giants may have given up on draft picks, whereas other teams may not have, and both rewarded and stuck with veteran producers in lieu of keeping draft picks
2- that they also have made some scores with UDFAs that also stacked the roster in deference to draftees
3- that camp has become a true competition between Vets, Draftees, FAs and UDFA's
4- that Reese has adapted his style over the years and not wholly relied on any one area of acquisition - and unlike past years and GMs, he has been quicker to make difficult personnel decisions and cuts
5- that while today's cap rewards good drafting - it also rewards good UDFA pickups and shrewd FA pickups - and limiting large splash contracts - which this FO has become quite adept at it.
6- If you look at two teams that heavily rely on the draft to built their roster, have franchise QBs, and are well known for their drafting prowess and discipline - i.e. The Packers and The Steelers - you will see two teams that have more of their draft picks on the roster - yet may be in even worse shape than the Giants personnel wise right now - and certainly have been close to the Giants record wise in the past five years.
7- It's possible that the draft talent available has a lower success rate than you think across the board in the NFL
8- This front office has shown a propensity for high risk pickups - and with the high risk they have had a higher number of stars show up and play - at the cost of depth. This has led to delivering the thrills in two of the last seven years - but also the lows when risks didn't pan out like Marvin Austin, Ramses Barden, Phillip Dillard, Clint Sintim,Travis Beckhum, and deferring the drafting of Olineman to later in the draft for higher risk skill players.
9- If you look at the top three picks of the Giants from 2007-the present - I think you see a better rate of success than Mr O'Connor is suggesting:
2007
Aaron Ross, Steve Smith, Jay Alford (all were key producers)
2008
Kenny Phillips, Terrell Thomas, Mario Manningham (all were key producers)
2009
Hakeem Nicks, Clint Sintim, William Beatty (2 key producers - 1 bust)
2010
JPP, Linval Joseph, No third Rounder, Phillip Dillard (2 key producers - 1 Bust)
2011
Prince Amukamara, Marvin Austin, Jerrel Jernigan (1 key producer, 1 bust, 1 maybe)
2012
David Wilson, Ruben Randle, Jayron Hosely (all have shown flashes - but decision pending)
2013
Justin Pugh, Jonathan Hankins, Damontre Moore (1 producer, two promising players showing flashes)
I count 3 busts out of 21 premium draft position draftees in 7 years of drafting - that is well above average in my opinion
Sometimes, you actually have to compare the hits and misses of all teams and then see how many SBs they've won during their tenure(s)...
Some of you critique Reese in a subjective vacuum..Take a look around the league..There are similar crap the beds in them thar hills
Everyone has heard the old adage "jack of all trades, master of none". I think this insidious little monster has had a way of biting the Giants, but the "brass" chooses to ignore the pain.
John Mara is so right about "projects". This goes right to the point of drafting guys like Ramses Barden (who is my personal biggest heartbreaker). BBI used to hate him because he was from a small school and he wasn't fast, but that's not the reason he failed ….
His personal work-out tape (Marine Corps style) was amazing; he was consistently a human highlight film in camp. He had all the tools, except for the most important one for a football player - he hated getting dirty.
And finally, the most important factor in the Giants' failures is not listening to the Old Man enough - Tom Coughlin. Tom is the Ultimate Systems Man (much like his mentor - Bill Parcells). He knows what to do and the type of players he needs.
(He built a winner in a very short time at JAX, (but failed only when hard times came and he turned into a hard-ass). Recall, he tried the same thing here, but Michael Strahan saved him).
Reese is the better Pro Personnel guy and businessman; Tom the better evaluator and team builder.
I view the recent OL problems( say past 2 years) as a calculated gamble that failed. Reese gambled that (i) Snee and Baas would recover and be healthy and(ii) that one of Petrus,Koets,Cordle,Brewer,Mosley,McCants etc would develop and be a decent player. It didn't work out, x 3.
I don't blame Reese for drafting Austin or Beckum. Many thought those were good picks at the time.2014 is the deepest class in 10+ years and Reese needs to hit a homer on at least the first 3 picks, if not 4.
I took the same years in Connor's article (07-11) and applied it to the SB Champs, the Seattle Seahawks. In those 5 drafts they had 40 picks. How many are still with the team? 11 (27.5 percent) or 3 more than what the Giants have. Of those 11, 6 were taken within the first two rounds. Their most important piece, Russell Wilson, didn't come until 2012. I wonder how many of those players will still be on the team when Wilson is no longer on his rookie contract and one of the highest paid players in the league, just like Eli is now.
Which brings me to my next point. The Giants didn't struggle to fill holes because of the draft since again, their record isn't unique to every other team in the NFL. It's cap space, a problem every team with a top notch QB goes through, but especially the Giants since Eli had the highest cap number in the league. Not to mention the cap numbers of several other aging, oft-injured, underperforming veterans we carried for the past few years. However that's an argument for another day.
I don't get this part. If anything it goes against the article. We got 6 seasons out of a 7th round RB who became a starter, fought through several injuries, scored the game winning TD in SB46 for us and through his own mental and physical toughness, is still in the league. How many RBs play 6 seasons period, no matter the round? The other 4 are currently without a team (although T2 is still looking for a contract), not because of lack of talent, but because of devastating injuries. With the exception of Boss, they were 1st and 2nd rd picks with great Pro Bowl/All-Pro potential. How many other teams went through this, not to mention Chad Jones, over that period? How different would the outlook be if this never happened?
Lastly as someone else mentioned, you cant's talk about JR's draft record without speaking about what he's gotten out of UDFA's, especially Victor Cruz, Hyno and yes even Herzlich who is one of our better ST players. All 3 contributed to a Super Bowl winning season.
Every team has their kneejerk reaction part of their fan base, some bigger than others. As a Met fan, I can relate. But as frustrating as last season was, we still have one of the best GM's in American sports and in the one with the most disparity as far as player personnel, movement and injury risk goes. Although I can always question a pick here or there, I'm glad we have Jerry Reese and not just because of the two rings since '07, something no other team can say. Call me optimistic but I think barring any major injury, our future is bright.
Saying he is the best GM in the sport or league means his drafts, FA signings, etc, is ABOVE everyone else..
Plus, let's be hones hear, The 2 Sb teams were not some Superior talented teams that rolled the the season beating everyone..
I bet if you were to poll writers about the best GM's in sports, Reese probably wouldn't be in the top ten. Not because he's doesn't do a good job, The Giants themselves have been considered teams that got "hot" at the right team..
I do think he should study his mistakes. In the mid-rounds he seems to takes alot more risks than others. The senior year injury/IR (Beckum,Austin), the untested physical attributes (Barden,Robinson) and a few tweeners (Simtim,Beckum again).
He doesn't seem to like taking players with tape that may show a weakness. There are reasons why they are still available in the middle rounds. I think Reese should be more cognizant of that, and emphasize players with tape over players with potential. It may not create homeruns, but could improve his average.
All you hope for is to be in the mix and let clutch play and coaching bring home the hardware..
If it was just talent-based, Dallas, SF, Colts, Falcons(before last year) and even the Pats would have a lot more trophies to show for it..
All you hope for is to be in the mix and let clutch play and coaching bring home the hardware..
If it was just talent-based, Dallas, SF, Colts, Falcons(before last year) and even the Pats would have a lot more trophies to show for it..
You know...this is spot on.
Keep in mind though, Reese can really only control the talent-portion which is the biggest factor in winning more games than you lose.
"If it was just talent-based, Dallas, SF, Colts, Falcons(before last year) and even the Pats would have a lot more trophies to show for it.."
Anyway, we'll agree to disagree..:-)
Offseason acquisitions include Lawrence Tynes and Kawika Mitchell. Right before the start of that season we claimed Kevin Boothe off of waivers. During the season we signed Dave Tollefson, Domenik Hixon, Madison Hedgecock and Danny Ware.
So in his first season as GM there were several players he inherited, however I'm sure he was instrumental in getting alot of them too considering his 13 previous years with the team. But the contributions he did add that first year has plenty to do with why we got hot at the right time. That's what makes him a good GM.
Red Sox: '07 and '13
Heat: '12 and '13
Blackhawks: '10 and '13
and us.
I'll gladly take that company!
Looking at all of the players acquired by the Giants through the draft, I would say that out of all the ones that departed the team the vast majority of them either had serious health concerns after suffering significant injuries, or were let go because they performed very well but were not worth their asking price when it came time for a new contract.
The only relevant question we should be asking in terms of how we should be evaluating the GM's performance with draft selections is: how many players who were drafted in the last 7 years are no longer with the team specifically due to poor performance? In my opinion, I don't think it's very many at all.
Start with the teams in the playoffs,chances are they are doing something right.
That does little to comfort me, because there's really no evidence that the Giants as a team are competent at any special teams endeavor. That includes analyzing tape of it.
There is not a GM who has drafted better in the 1st 2 rounds since he has been drafting. He has missed on 2 picks in those rounds. Sintim was a terrible pick because of system. Austin was boom or bust.
Newsome has drafted the following 1st & 2nd round players: K. Boller, Dwan Edwards, D. Cody, S. Kindle, A. Terry, T. Cody, M. Oher, M. Clayton
his 3rd rd picks:Musa Smith, Devard Darling, Yamon Figures, David Pittman, Tavaras Gooden, Oneil Cousins, T. Zibkowski, Ed Dickson, Jah Reid,
He is genius though and an expert at drafting and Reese sucks. Ted Thomson is no different nor is Pittsburgh. Belichik has been awful at drafting
You find players after the 3rd round you get lucky - period. Complaining about 4th-7th rd picks is ridiculous when 2/3 of these guys don't make the NFL at all
He's been there since 96'
The other explanation is that Reese furnished the team with SB talent but coach Coughlin has led it to underachiever impression often then not.
It's hard to have it both ways.
He's a very good GM, one of the best imv(and many others)..Sorry if he's fucked up at times
Reese is average amd benefitted by star alignment/good fortune..Unfortunately, most other GMs do not have his luck or fortuitiveness..Definitely not in Newsome's class, for example..
Wasn't it Parcells who said that "you're only as good as your record says you are?
So Reese has been the GM for 7 seasons. He's presided over two World Championship teams and has had a winning record in 6 of his 7 seasons.
However, his teams have only made the playoffs in three of his seven years. That blurs the picture for me.
Hard to dispute that Jerry Reese is a successful General manager. In my mind you cannot make reach any categorical conclusions about him until:
a) he selects his own coach;
b) selects his own QB to lead the franchise;
Amazingly, he has done neither yet. Its a big year for him because he will feeling some real heat if they don't make the playoffs.
Until he does one of the above two things, you almost have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Look around the league. Give me some better GM candidates and then the discussion begins.
But if its easier to say then that anyone who questions it must believe he sucks, well then I don't know what to say.
So, here goes my selective POV..Aside from seeing what has transpired in the main since Reese has taken over, I have read through the years articles by respected(to me) writers who claim to have heard from other GMs and personnel people that Reese is highly regarded. This has been echoed by Such reapected people as Pioli, Polian, Kirwan, Belichick as well as other guests on Sirius. Personally, my fan criteria has been, who has done a better OVERALL job? It's subjective in many ways, but to me two championships in recent years is all that matters..It is one of the hardest things to accomplish in all of sports no matter how you got there and how you fared, imo..
Reese has had his moments and definitely done a lot of things well, but there is also plenty of evidence that he is far from infallible - the 2009 draft being one example.
But that doesn't fit your argument