Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Will some of the scouting staff be let go after the draft?

AcidTest : 4/17/2014 6:15 pm
What are your thoughts on this issue? We've seen major changes to the coaching staff, and to the personnel on the team.

I assume no one was let go because we were already too deep into the draft evaluation process for this year when last season ended. I don't mean Reese, but what about Ross, and some of the other scouts? Or will everyone get another year? I should think if people are going to be released it would be after the draft, so the FO would have time to hire new scouts and not have them fall behind their counterparts on other teams when the process for reviewing prospects for 2015 begins.
if they are planning changes  
Hades07 : 4/17/2014 6:20 pm : link
That would probably be the time they make them. I have no clue if they will make changes though.
I admittedly don't know  
pjcas18 : 4/17/2014 6:22 pm : link
much about the inner workings of the scouting dept or draft prep, but I'd imagine in January, when it's pre combine, pre senior bowls, pre- private workouts, etc. scouts can easily be replaced.

I would think it's happened tons of times in the past, and with the draft not until May this year and a grand total of probably under 500 players drafted and signed as college free agents, 5 months is more than enough time to prep and get to know every one of them.
Acid  
Hammer : 4/17/2014 6:26 pm : link
I think you raise an excellent point. It seems like it is conventional wisdom that that the Giants have under performed in terms of drafting young talent. Given that paradigm, it is reasonable to assume that there is going to be some changes in terms of scouting going forward.

Your timing scenario is also spot on. I think your right, changes might very well be coming.
I just don't see it happening.  
yatqb : 4/17/2014 6:26 pm : link
Most of their guys have been there a long time and have, at least in the opinion of the FO, earned their stripes.
Do not think  
TMS : 4/17/2014 6:29 pm : link
we will see much of a change in the scouting staff unless we get a new GM. These are his people and he owns them and their performance after 6 years.
I hope some changes are made  
BillyBoy8384 : 4/17/2014 6:55 pm : link
We've had our fair share of bust's, but what team hasn't? Trading up for Sintim was horrible. I think when Jerry said we almost took Clint Sintim in the first RD was one of his worst moves. Imagine we had taken him in the 1st??? Anyway lets hope Jerry hits a HR this year.
I swear if he takes a QB with one of our first 4 picks...jk. I hope , in no order, we get a WR OL TE RB DL....alot of us are forgetting we could take a RB as high as the 3rd RD.
After the draft  
Randy in CT : 4/17/2014 7:28 pm : link
which might be a really good one? Yes, that's when it will happen!
Changes in how they draft are definitely overdue.  
Red Dog : 4/17/2014 7:32 pm : link
How much of the problem is actually on the scouting staff, versus the management of the scouting staff, other team functionaries, or the people actually running the draft and making the picks, is out of our view.

Some posters have pointed the finger at past and/or present members of the coaching staff for some of the more notable recent draft busts.

It is also worth noting that Phily's drafting didn't seem very productive with Marc Ross running it there, and that the decline in productivity of the GIANTS drafts more or less coincides with Ross being hired by Reese to run the GIANTS drafts after Reese moved up from running the draft to being General Manager. When Reese was running the drafts, the GIANTS were doing quite well in them, well enough to assemble the group around Eli that won the team's last two Super Bowl victories.

Changes in scouting and drafting staff are typically made right after the draft, so I would expect something to happen later next month. However it may or may not result in scouts being let go or reassigned. That may not be where the problem is.
This is a crazy situation  
Bill in UT : 4/17/2014 7:50 pm : link
No one will know how good this draft is for 1-3 seasons after. So how do you keep them or fire them based on this draft? If they're going to be fired it has to be based on past drafts, and that judgement should have been made already. And if you've already decided to fire them based on their past records, what is the point of keeping them around to make this year's picks? Regardless of how much time they've already put into the process. If they are going to be fired, it should have been when the season ended.
I don't know how a pro football team works, so who knows ...  
baadbill : 4/17/2014 7:55 pm : link
but if I were in charge of a major corporation and I thought a department had competency issues, I sure as heck wouldn't allow them input into yet another draft ... I'd clean house ASAP and get guys I trusted and let them work 24/7 to catch up ... but one thing I wouldn't do - is allow them to ruin another draft (again, that assumes I thought they were incompetent and responsible for past failures)
RE: This is a crazy situation  
baadbill : 4/17/2014 7:56 pm : link
In comment 11625829 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
No one will know how good this draft is for 1-3 seasons after. So how do you keep them or fire them based on this draft? If they're going to be fired it has to be based on past drafts, and that judgement should have been made already. And if you've already decided to fire them based on their past records, what is the point of keeping them around to make this year's picks? Regardless of how much time they've already put into the process. If they are going to be fired, it should have been when the season ended.


... or what Bill in UT said
yeah  
pjcas18 : 4/17/2014 7:59 pm : link
that's what I was saying (in more words) an hour ago.

Didn't Mara come out and say it wasn't the scouting  
jcn56 : 4/17/2014 8:02 pm : link
right after the season? I don't think that covers Reese and Ross, who are technically in the FO and not scouts.
RE: yeah  
baadbill : 4/17/2014 8:04 pm : link
In comment 11625847 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
that's what I was saying (in more words) an hour ago.


Yea, or what pjcas18 said ;)
So Reese is going to fire Chris Mara, John Mara and Ross?  
Mason : 4/17/2014 8:07 pm : link
I really don't think people get the how this FO is run post Wellington Mara. Chris Mara runs the scouting department, he scouts as well. John Mara claims to scout as well. Not sure if you will see so much BC connections or heavy ACC. Reese has been probably asked to do duties that he hasn't since 07 but those are Mara scouts.

In fact the only difference I seen so far this year less involvement of scouting by coaches. Seems more likely that the scouts are running the whole show. But yes less Ross this year at pro days. Reese has made more scouting trips.
Here's what Mara said  
jcn56 : 4/17/2014 8:22 pm : link
Quote:

That ended any speculation that Reese, after seven mostly successful seasons as the Giants’ general manager, would pay for this poor season and years of questionable draft choices with his job. Mara made no secret that he has issues with some of the personnel decisions and draft picks, but he didn’t put all the blame on Reese for that.

He also didn’t blame Reese’s staff or scouts. In fact, Mara said “I think we have as good a group of scouts as any team in the league. Now we may have taken some calculated risks on players in the past, knowing that they were risks thinking that maybe we’d hit big and we didn’. But that’s not necessarily a function of the scouts.

“That’s as much on me as anything else. I knew what the risks were in certain cases and we took them and they didn’t work out. But we’ve had a lot of guys that have worked out, too, as lower round picks. So you take the good with the bad.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/giants/john-mara-stands-firmly-behind-jerry-reese-blog-entry-1.1657535 - ( New Window )
Speculating that there will be changes in the scouting dept assumes  
Great White Ghost : 4/17/2014 8:24 pm : link
That the Giants feel that their issues stem from poor intelligence.I don't think the FO feels that is the case.I believe team management feels the issue lies with their choices, not their intelligence. Mara said scouting isn't the issue, Reese has acknowledged making high risk choices,Mara has acknowledged knowingly signing off on them.

The other 2 major decision makers are Ross and Chris Mara.I am, and have been, very curious to hear or see if their is any expansion, or restriction, for that matter, on the decision making authority of either as it pertains to scouting, and drafting in particular.

I am still unclear exactly what it is Chris Mara does, where his authority starts and ends, and what say he ultimately has on draft day.Ultimately we have some idea where John Mara and Reese stand on the issue or responsibility tof drafting. Both have expressed culpability in that area.I have not heard the same from Chris Mara or Ross.Is there advice heeded and that creates the poor drafting in later rounds that we have? or is it ignored, and that is the issue?


In either case, I suspect management does hold the scouting dept liable for the poor drafting choices. I'm willing to be any flaws that proved the undoing of our draft choices were mentioned in the reports the Giants scouts compiled on them.

It's an issue of decision making, not intelligence, so I don't see changes in the scouting dept much per se , myself.
screwed up that last paragraph  
Great White Ghost : 4/17/2014 8:27 pm : link
meant to say instead:

In either case, I suspect management does NOT hold the scouting dept liable for the poor drafting choices. I'm willing to BET any flaws that proved the undoing of our draft choices were mentioned in the reports the Giants scouts compiled on them.
you can't clean house  
MookGiants : 4/17/2014 8:30 pm : link
asap because the scouting is really done from september-january. I think Ross and other scouts are getting canned after the draft. Scouting contracts run until after the draft. I think Reese will have even more input than he usually does and Ross won't be running the draft as much as he has.

I'll be stunned if a few guys aren't canned
beyond that I agree with Bill  
Great White Ghost : 4/17/2014 8:33 pm : link
Why would you keep shit scouts around till AFTER the draft if you didn't like the job they were doing?They would have been gone at the end of the season i would think.
Less coach involvement more Reese and scout involvement  
Mason : 4/17/2014 8:38 pm : link
Exactly what EA warned Reese about.

No more of this
http://www.nj.com/sports/nfldraft/index.ssf/2009/04/new_york_giants_trade_up_to_se.html

It was reported for weeks how much Coughlin and Sheridan wanted Sintim. They wanted him in the 1st round but now it gets tossed on Ross. Smh.
RE: beyond that I agree with Bill  
Hammer : 4/17/2014 8:43 pm : link
In comment 11625915 Great White Ghost said:
Quote:
Why would you keep shit scouts around till AFTER the draft if you didn't like the job they were doing?They would have been gone at the end of the season i would think.


Coaches are fired after the last game of the season. The draft is he scouting departments "last game of the season", therefore scouting department personnel are fired after the draft.
The draft is 5 months after the season  
pjcas18 : 4/17/2014 8:45 pm : link
ends.

It doesn't make sense as an owner to know you're going to fire a scout or scouts because you don't think they're doing a good job but let them continue influencing your decision-making with the organizations most valuable resources.

I don't get that line of thinking.

scouts aren't coaches and the analogy isn't close.
I take back whatever I said  
Bill in UT : 4/17/2014 8:50 pm : link
and agree with pjcas
Uh....OK  
Great White Ghost : 4/17/2014 8:54 pm : link
but, he said what you said in the first place.Now I'm confused.
Or you're confused  
Great White Ghost : 4/17/2014 8:55 pm : link
..
he said what you said in the first place.Now I'm confused.  
Bill in UT : 4/17/2014 8:58 pm : link
Yeah, but he said it in the first place, and I said it in the secondplace. So in the thirdplace, I give him credit for the original idea. So in the fourthplace, I still agree with what I said in the secondplace, but defer to pjcas in the firstplace.
I hope that  
Bill in UT : 4/17/2014 8:59 pm : link
was clear, Ghost :)
RE: The draft is 5 months after the season  
MookGiants : 4/17/2014 11:29 pm : link
In comment 11625953 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
ends.

It doesn't make sense as an owner to know you're going to fire a scout or scouts because you don't think they're doing a good job but let them continue influencing your decision-making with the organizations most valuable resources.

I don't get that line of thinking.

scouts aren't coaches and the analogy isn't close.


You aren't going to be able to really hire scouts in February or March because their job mostly takes place from september to december.

Just because they haven't been fired yet doesn't mean some scouts are actually having influence on the decision making process. It's not something that will come out who is let go until after their contracts run out after the draft.
I am still amazed  
Doomster : 4/18/2014 11:32 am : link
that Junior was retained, as a TE couch(with little experience, if you can call one year at football powerhouse Georgetown, experience), after the "great" job he did as WR'ers coach....
They would have already made the changes if they were going to  
The Tempest : 4/20/2014 10:48 pm : link
Over a dozen scouts before we even get to head coaches looking at players and management when it comes to the draft. Reasons why some of our drafts have not worked out comes down to just two: Trying to take physically talented players and develop them or taking players that fit a positional need with the hope they are better than advertised.
Why would they  
LauderdaleMatty : 4/20/2014 11:28 pm : link
make changes after the draft. Reese is probably one of the safest GMs in the NFL He could suck for 5 years and the Giants wouldn't can him.

He's mismanaged the cap and missed on a lot of early picks and no one was a let go at all. They all work for him and are his guys. He's going to get years to turn it around. Its the Giants way. People can bitch all they want about Ross but he works for Reese.

If they screw this draft up there may be repercussions but the guy and his staff seem immune to any ramifications.
Reese  
MookGiants : 4/20/2014 11:49 pm : link
isn't going to be let go, no chance of that.

Scouts and/or Ross will be the ones that have the chance of being canned.
...  
christian : 4/21/2014 7:04 am : link
How have the Giants mismanaged the cap?
just before last season started  
fkap : 4/21/2014 9:02 am : link
I said it was the time to revamp the scouting department. No one listened. Bastids. It was so obvious that changes were needed, that the whole setup needed some revamping.

Toward the end of camp is when changes need to be made. you have early results on how this years draft went. Lots of data on the prior years draft. If it doesn't look good, you make the change and let a revised department scout all year for next years draft.

It's possible that the scouting department is doing their job and it's the higher ups that are blowing it. That's for insiders to know.
RE: just before last season started  
Randy in CT : 4/21/2014 9:46 am : link
In comment 11629904 fkap said:
Quote:
I said it was the time to revamp the scouting department. No one listened. Bastids. It was so obvious that changes were needed, that the whole setup needed some revamping.

Toward the end of camp is when changes need to be made. you have early results on how this years draft went. Lots of data on the prior years draft. If it doesn't look good, you make the change and let a revised department scout all year for next years draft.

It's possible that the scouting department is doing their job and it's the higher ups that are blowing it. That's for insiders to know.
To be fair, we never listen to you?
You would hope that by now  
mrvax : 4/21/2014 10:20 am : link
Reese has put his finger on what he believes has caused a bunch of draft failures and he has tried to fix it.

Maybe scouts put too much weight on potential as opposed to production for example. Reese could just "tweek" the rating formula the way he sees fit to improve the Giant's draft in the latter rounds.
RE: You would hope that by now  
baadbill : 4/21/2014 5:08 pm : link
In comment 11630055 mrvax said:
Quote:
Reese has put his finger on what he believes has caused a bunch of draft failures and he has tried to fix it.

Maybe scouts put too much weight on potential as opposed to production for example. Reese could just "tweek" the rating formula the way he sees fit to improve the Giant's draft in the latter rounds.


Reese just needs to spend more time at first-pick.com ... I don't know shit about college players yet I've become GREAT at drafting - and all the credit goes to first-pick.com. I don't know what Reese's problem is - I got pretty good at it in a matter of days.
Giants could bring in Joe Clark to run the scouting department  
ghost718 : 4/21/2014 5:14 pm : link
Ultimately the decision on who to draft is Jerry Reese's.That's why he gets paid the big bucks,and gets to strike a pose in magazines holding Super Bowl trophies.If you don't draft well,it's on the GM.That's usually how it goes.
Back to the Corner