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New offense clues with Victor Cruz quote

Ten Ton Hammer : 4/22/2014 3:24 pm
"Ralph Vacchiano & #8207;@RVacchianoNYDN 1h
Cruz said that with the new offense "not based on body language" it'll be "even easier" for him to get on the same page w/Eli Manning."

https://twitter.com/RVacchianoNYDN


What do you make of that?
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Chemistry between quarterback and receiver...  
Mike in Long Beach : 4/22/2014 5:09 pm : link
...can be massively beneficial when it's time to break (or not break) the route. However, counting on chemistry for the formation of the route itself is and has been a bit too much to ask of any offense, IMO. When it worked it was beautiful... but it was incredibly difficult to get working right and often times created a really embarrassing product.
Eli is always going to be an above average (or below, if that's how  
Riggies : 4/22/2014 5:12 pm : link
you look at it) when it comes to turnovers.

He's a risk taker, sometimes to a foolish degree, and while he's not as inaccurate as some claim, he's not Aaron Rodgers out there when it comes to accuracy either. The number of times he forks the ball over the opposition may not be as bad as they were at their worst and some of the miscommunications will hopefully cut back, but if you're expecting him to suddenly be something he's never been ever to this point in his career... you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

He's 33 years old and coming off a year and a half of putrid football (regardless of what his supporting cast is), with a below average bunch of talent around him that he's likely going to have to carry or cover up for.

If he just bounces back to either bus driver extraordinaire (2008) or still in the top third in turnovers, but very productive otherwise (2009), it's going to be one hell of an accomplishment for him and the coaching staff.
..  
Mike in Long Beach : 4/22/2014 5:15 pm : link
Quote:
Eli is always going to be an above average (or below, if that's how
Riggies : 5:12 pm : link : reply
you look at it) when it comes to turnovers.


I don't think this is necessarily true and, as I've stated in some of my posts on this thread, I think the nature of what Eli really is in regards to turnovers will be a lot clearer after a season or two under the new system.
its pretty obvious  
chris r : 4/22/2014 5:17 pm : link
its not going to be an option route heavy offense like Gilbride's.
He's been in the league since 2004.  
Riggies : 4/22/2014 5:24 pm : link
He may have developed into something different under a different coaching staff from the start -- hell, if you wanted to argue that he probably would have been a better QB if he had gone to SD, though he'd also probably be ring-less, I'd likely agree -- but someone isn't suddenly going to be something they've never ever been 10 years into a football career.

He's a risk taker and can have batches of inaccuracy that you don't see from the usually low-INT guys (that aren't just asked to mostly stay out of the way or "bus drive"). They're just part of who he is as a QB. A new system, at age 33 and with him coming off the level of poor play he is, isn't going to change his spots; it can just hopefully help buff them up and get back to when they were just that, spots, and not traits that swallowed him whole.
RE: I am glad  
mrvax : 4/22/2014 5:26 pm : link
In comment 11632637 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
this is the case. I like and respect Gibride, but they posted a stat during one of the games that read, out of all active QBs since 2004, Eli leads all in Ints. I mean that's amazing. I am tired of seeing the ball go one way and WR doing something else.

If that element goes away, I am curious to see how much better Eli can be. Obviously we have to add offensive personnel, on the OL and skill positions, but just speaking on scheme alone. I am hoping this leads to less Ints. That is one element that drove me freaking crazy.


I agree. If I may pile on, I was sick of seeing so many 3rd and short 30+ yard passes, 3rd and long draw plays etc.
Few if any screens, no more pump fakes, delay of game penalties...

As long as we block for him, I think Eli's about to put up his  
GMenLTS : 4/22/2014 5:35 pm : link
best season as a pro.

I always loved the advantages that the old offense gave us but it was very high risk/high reward. Now we're gonna see the Eli Manning that carried a very average Ole Miss squad on his back in the SEC.

Cruz is going to have a big bounce back year too.

Just block for the love of god.
Yes They Won 2 Championships  
Bernie : 4/22/2014 6:08 pm : link
but in the playoffs during both seasons, the offense became less about the big play over the top and more about running the ball, intermediate stuff in the passing game with YAC, and the occasional shot downfield. Too many times during the regular season the Giants have tried to get it all on 1 play which just leads to other problems - lots of 2nd and long and 3rd and long situations. Hoping the new offense avoids most of that.
I don't mind  
AnishPatel : 4/22/2014 6:18 pm : link
if it's a lot more dink and dunk ball. Rivers did that last season and got props for having a high completion percentage. I would be happy if we threw it a lot more to Jennings and Wilson.
Rivers did a job  
bc4life : 4/22/2014 6:21 pm : link
on the Giants defense last year - one of the few teams who really stymied the Giants D.
next BBI meltdown  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/22/2014 6:25 pm : link
if they don't get someone to take pressure off of Cruz. Teams will keep doubling Cruz...taking him out of offense. Eli - unless he gets other viable targets - will have nowhere to throw the football.

BBI - "It's time for Coughlin and Eli to go."
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/22/2014 6:27 pm : link
BBI after the 2011 NFC Championship Game when Carlos Rogers was miked and said he couldn't cover the Giants option routes:

"I love our offense."
All I can say is...  
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) : 4/22/2014 6:30 pm : link
something was seriously wrong last year. Too many WRs who were not new to this system were going one way, and the ball was going the other way.
Let's see how  
AnishPatel : 4/22/2014 6:31 pm : link
the passing game evolves. These viable targets could in the form of TE and RB used more. Ben M said he will install more screens. So perhaps this takes us back to the Hufangel years where we ran screens with RB, TE and WR. I would love to see more successful screens.

The thing I see...  
Dan in the Springs : 4/22/2014 6:42 pm : link
that always kills me is how efficient other quarterbacks can look early on in their career with different offenses. Consider this list:

Drew Brees
Tom Brady
Philip Rivers
Peyton Manning
Tony Romo
Andrew Luck
Alex Smith
Sam Bradford
Nick Foles

What do they have in common? All had INT % below 3% in 2013. Who doesn't belong on this list?

Compare Eli - with his 8.52%. Foles had very little to no experience on the field and his INT % was 0.99%. Luck, in his first 32 games in the league has an INT% of 2.26% for his career. Russell Wilson has a career INT % of 2.38% for the first 19 games of his career. Colin Kaepernick has a career 1.72% INT % for the first 23 regular season starts to his career.

I know that INT % is only one metric and doesn't tell us everything, but who can deny the strong correlation between net turnovers and games won, meaning there is strong evidence to blame these losses on the turnovers.

I read once about the SF offense - it had a couple of option reads and then ALWAYS a single receiver who had no reads but ran a predetermined route. This meant that when all else failed, Alex Smith and now CK would always know where to expect at least one receiver on the team.

I'm hoping our offense will have some wrinkles like this.
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee)  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/22/2014 6:46 pm : link
Two...Randle and Murphy (who sucked).

The problem was Nicks and Myers sucked last year and teams doubled Cruz. We couldn't pass protect or run block. We were 3rd-and-long constantly, with a QB under heavy pressure, and no one to throw the football to.

Sure they won two championships  
Pitt G-man Dan : 4/22/2014 6:50 pm : link
with that O but that doesn't mean that teams didn't then come up with ways to confuse the offense later on by changing up and disguising what they were doing so the WR's and QB were reading two different things.
I'm excited  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/22/2014 6:54 pm : link
as the next fan, but the game still comes down to talent. And last year, the Giants' offensive talent was dreadful. If you blame the coaches for those problems, you're burying your head in the sand.
See Eric...  
Dan in the Springs : 4/22/2014 6:58 pm : link
the problem I had with the old system is that it required not just talent, but experienced talent to operate efficiently.

Did Jernigan suddenly become talented? He's had his talent since he came in the league. He just hasn't had the reps with the offense to develop the consistently required to be effective under the complex old system.

Let's hope the new system has a place for young, talented, more inexperienced receivers.

I don't want to dump on Gilbride's offense because it's the best offense I've ever seen the Giants run. I just want to point out that in today's league it would be nice to improve on it.
If the talent is not there...  
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) : 4/22/2014 7:01 pm : link
and guys "suck", then why force feed a system that requires something from players that you simply cannot get? That is when you need to realize that your system with these players is not going to work and maybe you need to dumb it down a bit.
RE: We'll  
Semipro Lineman : 4/22/2014 7:02 pm : link
In comment 11632671 dorgan said:
Quote:
still use some option routes. Fewer, but they're not going away completely. Everybody runs some.


THIS...

Why the heck does everyone think that the offense is too complicated when it features the same elements of most high powered scoring teams.



P.S. Eli has thrown the most interceptions since 2004 because he has probably played in more games since 2004 than any other QB. No one but the elite guys probably come close in games played and each of them missed a season if I remember correctly.
Eric,  
AnishPatel : 4/22/2014 7:04 pm : link
I agree. I hope we seriously upgrade the offensive personnel. I am curious to see if the scheme can make players productive. For example, the option routes for the slot Wr spot from our past system. You take 2 different players in Steve Smith and Cruz, and both were able to execute the sight adjustments and both were pro bowlers. Great part was that their game is totally different and played the same position.

Smith caught the ball and would fall down after getting the first down. He'd move the chains and be that guy who caught everything. Then you get Cruz who was a big play guy. In this system he took that position to a whole different level. JJ now after injuries came on last season playing the same exact position.

The question is do we keep the option routes for the slot the same? Do we see that our guys are highly productive in that role and leave it untouched? If not, I am curious to see if Cruz can be highly productive again in a new system.
Semipro...  
Dan in the Springs : 4/22/2014 7:05 pm : link
That's why I listed INT %, not just INT's.
RE: RE: We'll  
GMenLTS : 4/22/2014 7:10 pm : link
In comment 11633116 Semipro Lineman said:
Quote:
In comment 11632671 dorgan said:


Quote:


still use some option routes. Fewer, but they're not going away completely. Everybody runs some.



THIS...

Why the heck does everyone think that the offense is too complicated when it features the same elements of most high powered scoring teams.



P.S. Eli has thrown the most interceptions since 2004 because he has probably played in more games since 2004 than any other QB. No one but the elite guys probably come close in games played and each of them missed a season if I remember correctly.


Obviously agree on the options, but as a huge Eli supporter, while the games played certainly plays a role in his leading the league, the INT % season by season would suggest he does indeed throw INTs much more often.

But as I always have maintained, the offense played a MAJOR role in that.

I would not be surprised at all if Eli gets himself that sub-10 INT season this year that he's mentioned he's capable of.
RE: Let's see how  
Riggies : 4/22/2014 7:11 pm : link
In comment 11633071 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
the passing game evolves. These viable targets could in the form of TE and RB used more. Ben M said he will install more screens. So perhaps this takes us back to the Hufangel years where we ran screens with RB, TE and WR. I would love to see more successful screens.



What TEs would be getting these targets? They have arguably the worst TE talent, collectively as a unit, in the NFL right now.

At RB, they have a possible one year wonder that didn't see a ton of action as a pass catcher and a guy with a highly questionable neck that hasn't shown a lot outside of ST value.

If the WRs don't come on, significantly, frankly, they're basically likely to be fucked. Especially with what the quality of the OL is also likely to be.
Dan in the Springs  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/22/2014 7:12 pm : link
Jernigan kept getting hurt too and missing time.
Riggies,  
AnishPatel : 4/22/2014 7:21 pm : link


AR perhaps. New offense, so now he has a clean slate too. If the guy who can stay healthy and that's a big IF, then maybe him. Obviously, I wouldn't bet on it or hold my breath, but I am interested to see how HE and Wilson do in a new system. That's the beauty of wiping the slate clean. Good or bad, what you did is done, this is the new system, with new terminology, and from now you work hard to impress your new OC.

I would like to see more hitches, Y stick, and arrow routes by the TE. A lot quick concept passing games to get rid of the ball. So that's specifically what I was thinking about when I wrote that.
Of course...  
Dan in the Springs : 4/22/2014 7:21 pm : link
but that's kind of my point. The old offense had no way of incorporating talented guys UNTIL they had put in the time and learned the system fully. This could take years, particularly if a guy was injured and missed time during camp.

Compare that to the 9ers system that could sign a guy and play him the same week. There is a role in that system that a new receiver could be prepared to fill even when they don't know what an option route even is - they just have to know the tree and the play calls to understand their basic assignment. Why not have something available for guys like Jernigan who clearly have talent but haven't had time yet to become "system-ready"?
Guys, I recognize that Eli Manning is a  
Semipro Lineman : 4/22/2014 7:27 pm : link
high interception QB and in a few years his int % was probably through the roof. But the use of a compilation stat to make a point about the offense was a bit misguided in my opinion.

End of the day, freaking receivers are being coddled and pampered from criticism because people believe that the offense is too complicated. Marcellus Bennett who couldn't get on the same page as Romo in a supposedly less complex offense somehow manages to get it. David Wilson blocking woes aren't blamed on the complexity of the offense or his assignments but rather his own poor recognition skills or technique.

It's a group mind set on here which ignores such inconsistencies that is quite frankly wrong to be polite
I am excited to  
AnishPatel : 4/22/2014 7:37 pm : link
see what kind of screens we run. I would be cool to see how many different types of screens we incorporate in this offense. I am tired of seeing blown up screens where Eli throws the ball at the feet of a player because it got sniffed out.

semi, read my post again  
GMenLTS : 4/22/2014 7:39 pm : link
I'm with you completely.

And I wasn't looking at Dan's INT % list for just 2013. It's always significantly higher on an annual basis.

I attribute it to the offense, the WRs, and Eli's propensity to take risks, but I always believed it was more the first two. I've seen Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, etc... take just as many risks as Eli but the old O was so much more high risk than the other high powered Os.

I really cannot wait to see Eli make everyone who thinks he's in decline look like damned fools.
Loving what I'm reading from Cruz (and Randle) already.  
Dave in Hoboken : 4/22/2014 7:44 pm : link
.
This is positive  
DavidinBMNY : 4/22/2014 7:50 pm : link
It could bode well for Randle and Manningham specifically and get the ball out quicker from Manning to a WR.

If we no longer see Manning gesturing cut inside (where he threw the ball) and the WR is on the outside that will be huge.
Undefeated  
mattlawson : 4/22/2014 8:02 pm : link
!
GManLTS, I was agreeing with you  
Semipro Lineman : 4/22/2014 8:38 pm : link
Interception % isn't a compilation stat like total number of interceptions thrown since 2004.

cool  
GMenLTS : 4/22/2014 9:24 pm : link
wasn't sure
Painful to see even the site owner  
Overseer : 4/22/2014 9:34 pm : link
employing the hackneyed and ever-simplistic "-BBI" meme. God that meme sucks.

There's no uniform voice here. You may choose to focus attention on certain posters, but that doesn't mean their view should be cemented as some consensus from yesteryear.

Lots of views on Gilbride around here and many include a worthwhile dose of nuance.
too late  
SHO'NUFF : 4/23/2014 12:32 am : link
Eli had already been ruined by Gilbride... now he's gonna be even more confused.
RE: We probably should  
Great White Ghost : 4/23/2014 1:31 am : link
In comment 11632912 Phil in LA said:
Quote:
have won MORE than 2 over TC era.
we had great teams, and luck but I think it had more to do with Eli's stones and Gilbrides Genius in the really critical moments.That's just what I think. I also think Gilbride wa soverly complicated for the most part, put too much Onus on the players to make the right decisions on a day in and day out basis, was slow to adjust and adapt, and all the other criticisms about him I believe to be true. I also believe he was a genius that Mcadoo wont be. I think Mac will get us into playoffs and give better, more consistent results.Better stats as well.I also think it will take many years before his best called games approach anything Gilbride did on his best days.Macadoo is good, dolid, progressive.Gilbride was a stodgy genius, and his very best is something that wont be replaced I think for a long time.

Gilbrides best games were as good or better than anyones.
RE: next BBI meltdown  
Great White Ghost : 4/23/2014 1:33 am : link
In comment 11633063 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
if they don't get someone to take pressure off of Cruz. Teams will keep doubling Cruz...taking him out of offense. Eli - unless he gets other viable targets - will have nowhere to throw the football.

BBI - "It's time for Coughlin and Eli to go."
I totally agree. More and more I'm turning away from TE or OL or even donald to hoping Evans is there.Watkins I think is too much to hope for.
Ten ton, I think what that means  
Great White Ghost : 4/23/2014 1:45 am : link
is that the offense will relay more on athleticism and timing than supriseing and outwitting opposing defense.I think that may play more to players strengths on a consistent basis, but I think it will also be bereft of some of the ingenious games that gilbride called that DID work.

I think it means, specifically that player will do less interpreting and communicating DURING the play after the snap and focusing more on COMMITTING to a route and simply executing in. I think the underlying premis is that even if the defense knows what's coming, there should be at least some point in each receivers route where the will exist separation enough for completions,and eli simply has to read who is gonna be open at what point in their route.
I thinik it requires both Eli and receiver to commit fast to what they are doing.

I find this interesting because in military terms, it amounts to shortening the overall decision cycle, which is where you really find an edge if you can get inside the other guys decision/execution process by going through yours faster. a recipe for basic success.we will see more sustained drives, higher 3rd down conversions, greater percentage of completions, better time of possession.

I see it as a lower floor, lower ceiling offense compared to Gilbrides, because there wont be many plays where you totally deceive and outwit your opponent leading to huge gains.It might work for Eli, and I hope that parts that are kept in this hybrid offense are Gilbrides/TCs best plays, not their base plays.
sorry i meant HIGHER floor  
Great White Ghost : 4/23/2014 1:47 am : link
Lower ceiling.
RE: Eric,  
KeoweeFan : 4/23/2014 9:42 am : link
In comment 11633120 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
I agree. I hope we seriously upgrade the offensive personnel. I am curious to see if the scheme can make players productive. For example, the option routes for the slot Wr spot from our past system. You take 2 different players in Steve Smith and Cruz, and both were able to execute the sight adjustments and both were pro bowlers. Great part was that their game is totally different and played the same position.

Smith caught the ball and would fall down after getting the first down. He'd move the chains and be that guy who caught everything. Then you get Cruz who was a big play guy. In this system he took that position to a whole different level. JJ now after injuries came on last season playing the same exact position.

The question is do we keep the option routes for the slot the same? Do we see that our guys are highly productive in that role and leave it untouched? If not, I am curious to see if Cruz can be highly productive again in a new system.


GREAT POINT! But, a simplified scheme does not preclude the QB and savy veteran WRs having a "chemistry" between those specific players, ala brother Peyton and Marv Harrison. I think Eli and Cruz will still give each other knowing nods once in a while.
The biggest fear I have with our new O/C  
Mike in Long Beach : 4/23/2014 9:44 am : link
is it might wind up easier for opposing defenses to gameplan. Just as the "body language" reads were a detriment to our cause when Eli and his receivers weren't on the same page, it was our best asset when chemistry was good. By choosing to rely less on these intangible, play-to-play qualities, we're choosing to accept the fact that if we get figured out, we may be done for in a given game.
RE: The biggest fear I have with our new O/C  
Curtis in VA : 4/23/2014 9:51 am : link
In comment 11634030 Mike in Long Beach said:
Quote:
is it might wind up easier for opposing defenses to gameplan. Just as the "body language" reads were a detriment to our cause when Eli and his receivers weren't on the same page, it was our best asset when chemistry was good. By choosing to rely less on these intangible, play-to-play qualities, we're choosing to accept the fact that if we get figured out, we may be done for in a given game.


Well Green Bay seems to be doing quite well, offensively.
Curtis, not being snarky here...  
Mike in Long Beach : 4/23/2014 9:52 am : link
but I honestly am not sure what you're getting at.
KF,  
AnishPatel : 4/23/2014 10:16 am : link
You can always have Eli hand signal Cruz or any Wr. That's the stuff you work on and talk to the WRs about. So you call always call a play but change one route by looking at a certain Wr and hand signalling him.
i think eli's biggest problem  
msh : 4/23/2014 11:00 am : link
is one things arent going well the OL isnt run or pass blocking the other recievers dont force teams to cover them instead of blanketing cruz and the list goes on that manning tries to do too much to win it himself

was the same in 2008 after plax went to ER/jail and again last year when the offence collapsed totally and the giants went behind manning tried to sling it to guys who were covered to make something happen which led to turnovers

gilbrides system has NEVER made full use of the talent it had when guys when down to injury the giants supporting WR usually proved they could carry the load of being the starters so why didnt they show more against the 3rd or 4th DB even LB in a word i would guess the scheme


far too much gilbrides gameplan was give the ball to eli and have him make something happen that is a recipe for the ups and downs we have seen,time to spread the field and keep the opponent guessing. make them choose to cover the short or deep pass to play 8 in the box and beat them deep or stop the deep play and runa nd grinf them down and take whatever they give them/thier players can get against the defence

i would love a top WR or TE but i want the OL fixed and only a first round OL can give them that,they have manningham ,randle and cruz so they are not badly off at WR we still dont know what robinson could do he didnt get much time last year and they upgraded the RB corp now they need the OL to open the holes and keep the pressure off eli he sure as hell didnt get last year

the draft is deep so a 2nd round WR and 3rd round TE would still be good players picking at 12 unless the next nicks/plax/cruz is there and they have a later round diehl/snee type OL to fall back on then so be it
RE: The biggest fear I have with our new O/C  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/23/2014 11:48 am : link
In comment 11634030 Mike in Long Beach said:
Quote:
is it might wind up easier for opposing defenses to gameplan. Just as the "body language" reads were a detriment to our cause when Eli and his receivers weren't on the same page, it was our best asset when chemistry was good. By choosing to rely less on these intangible, play-to-play qualities, we're choosing to accept the fact that if we get figured out, we may be done for in a given game.


I don't really see it that way. The best offenses in the league today aren't about trickery or deception. Some run really simple schemes, executed at a high level

Peyton Manning doesn't re-invent the wheel every year. That's not why he has success, not why Brees or Brady has success. That offense he runs is something any QB can understand, but not every QB can have success with. What makes it great is his individual talent. The individual talent of their receivers.

More than any time in the NFL I can recall, it's about talent, not scheme. There are no secrets in the NFL. Just physical talent and smart play.
Martellus Bennett's problem with Romo  
SHO'NUFF : 4/24/2014 3:58 am : link
was Romo's bromance with Jason Witten.
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