NFT: Knicks chat: Players rip Woodson?

Blame it on the guy who just left/got fired.

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Not sure how anyone can debate. They certainly weren't a very talented team, but they were more talented than they showed in regards to W-L. Just an awful job of coaching all season long.

the "talent" is vastly overstated. Potential would be the better word. if Shump, Chandler, Felton & JR play up to their potential, it's a different team. But I wouldn't call it a very talented team as thiose guys play horribly half the time.

exagerration. Players trash Woodson and then all they say is that the players said they had more talent then their record shows. That's a pretty crappy article compared to the title.

to their ability are Melo and Hardaway.

Everyone else had a shit year. They're a better team than they showed, but they horrifically underachieved.

he said there is talent on this team btu the way it was put together and the way they played on the court were not to their strength...

He also mentioned that the team when they won games won games on talent rather than a system...they won because their talent took over and relied to heavily on one on one basketball...

Like he said it a couple of years ago the roster is clumsy and needs tweaking and needs a system in place but the roster is going to be clumsy as long as you have 3 guys taking up all of the cap..

trade for JR Smith and would it be a salary dump or could we possibly get an asset for him?

I purposely changed the title of the thread from the "trash" to "rip" and put the question mark for that reason. I couldn't in good conscience post "Players trash Woodson" based on the article and quite frankly I don't believe they did/would. Trashing the coach to Phil only makes the players look bad. Suggesting specific reasons why they felt Woodson's coaching hurt the team? I could see that.

but the article title. Such a gross exagerration. I don't even think "rip" is the right word, but the "?" obviously means you might not either. I'd say, "players suggest Woodson did a poor job" or even "players blame Woodson" would be better than players trash Woodson.

would be dumb to place blame on Woodson if you were trying to make a good impression on Phil. Granted our team isn't full of brain surgeons but blaming yourself for poor play is the way to go. If you have specific examples of what you didn't think worked then I could see blaming Woodson (I wanted Woodson gone).

totally rooting against the Pacers hard now with the outside chance they can Vogel. I think the guy is an above average coach.

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idea how true it is but there have been rumors one of the pacers fucked another players wife/girlfriend and that's why they had that strange funk.

when most of the team underachieved (outside of THjr, Amare, Melo).
but also pretty expected comments when a guy is fired.

it was rip and not just commenting on style of play ect.
otherwise little to see.

in fairness (and I don't defend the Knicks very often) for all we know Jackson posed the question in a way that produced such answers. "What could the coaching staff have done differently?" etc

In comment 11635900 DanMetroMan said:

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idea how true it is but there have been rumors one of the pacers fucked another players wife/girlfriend and that's why they had that strange funk.

Classic nba rumor drama, but who knows.

I'd heard Lance Stevenson has been an issue and causing problems because he wants a contract and everyone else got paid.

have no money and he acts like a loon but he's the kind of player who joins a Phil Jackson team and becomes a solid citizen/star.

In comment 11635909 hitdog42 said:

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when most of the team underachieved (outside of THjr, Amare, Melo). but also pretty expected comments when a guy is fired.

This assumes that the players placed all the blame on Woodson and took no responsibility themselves. I do not believe this to be true. From most quotes I have read, many players expressed disappointment in their play. However, to Phil, it seems they also expressed disappointment in their system which was absolutely atrocious. I don't think speaking the truth about a horrible system is cowardly.

Also, the title grossly exaggerates the claims, so I wouldn't use the word cowardly without getting more info.

no question about that. Im sure the article is an exaggeration, i doubt the players went in there and crushed woodson, but if they were somewhat honest then it would come off like they crushed him a bit cause he did a crappy job. Whether you think the talent is overrated or not they were more talented then their win loss record

Not sure if it was discussed on a different thread but in the post article about phil wanting melo to be true to his word on the pay cut they mentioned using the 7.5 percent salary reduction after the first year, pretty interesting idea.

made a truly idiotic comment yesterday. Kornheiser said Melo should take the cut if he cares about winning and Wilbon said "Why? Phil got 60 million, why should Melo take a cut?" uh, there is no salary cap for FO people?

had his sit down with Jackson.

chandler has been on Woodsons case all season. He knew what was up.

by saying he's done a good job for the Knicks and that this year wasn't his fault. He understood that Phil would want "his guys" and he said that's fine, but said Woodson shouldn't be fired based on the job he's done. What a Maroon.

He really says some bizarre things, and his homer rager for anything Bulls/Derrick Rose-related is off-putting.

He got a lot of praise for his work last season, and rightfully so.
BUT
Look back at the job he did in the playoffs last season. Was a horrible job game in, game out. Then followed it up with the season. The only defense for not firing him is last years 54 wins. Reminds me of those who cling to Ike Davis and his 32 Hr season.

that's going to be Melo's bone of contention I don't want him here anyway. "But Phil you got 60 million which has zero effect on fielding a team, so I want every penny which has a massive effect"

to start playing itself out. Im really ok with any result except giving him the full max. If he stays great, i hope its a good contract, and then we wait for 2015. If he leaves then blow it up and lets try to get some assets and a good pick in the 2015 draft and then go all in on 2015 FA.

and it starts with the backcourt.

It is truly a crime that the Knicks have had such pathetic PG play in the Carmelo era. Melo is a pure scorer who should be at his best if he has a legit PG to run the offense. Besides one 25 game run by Lin, the PG play for the Knicks has been far below-average since Melo has arrived.

The Triangle changes things a bit because ball-dominant PGs aren't valued as much in that system. So the Knicks are no longer in the market for a guy like Rondo. But Triangle or no triangle, the Knicks need to upgrade the PG position.

The rest of the team isn't exactly loaded with talent either. The x-factor is clearly Shumpert. He looked like he had 15 PPG + All-NBA 1st team D type of potential last year. That's a pretty nice 2 way ceiling. But Shumpert's offense was brutal this year and his defense also took a dip. 15 PPG + Great D is a very different player from 10 PPG + Good D. Which one is closer to Shumpert's true potential? That will have an impact on the Knicks' future.

TH Jr. had a nice rookie season but he needs to become more than a JR Smith type of scorer off the bench. Chandler's decline was also a big reason why the Knicks struggled this year.

The 2014 Knicks had 40-45 win talent. So they did underachieve a little through poor coaching but it's not like they were absolutely loaded with talent.

I thought they overachieved last year, due in a large part to playing in an absolutely terrible division. This year, I didn't see any significant improvement, while they lost a very good shooter (Novak) and their leader on the court (Kidd). That said, given their division and conference and some of the players they had, I thought they should still contend for the division and definitely make the playoffs. Their W-L record and the effort that got them that record are disgusting. I put a lot of that blame squarely on the coaching staff and front office.

I don't know enough about Kerr as a coach. But, I am thrilled with Jackson coming in and cleaning house, regardless of who he ultimately decides should coach. He is working on a complete overhaul of the atmosphere and chemistry within the organization. This is sorely needed.

you tank like you have never tanked before and get Okafor...

leaves. Just trade Chandler for whatever you can get and hopefully find a couple young guys with upside and play them. Dont upgrade the PG position, start Amare at C, etc.. To be honest if Melo leaves maybe rehire woodson for the year!

of the Suns picks for Chandler i do it whether Melo is leaving or not..

for JR Smith? I think he's gotta go.

unless a team like Milwaulkee wants him for a guy like Oj Mayo who had a horrible year for them...

I really dont see it..

Phil Jackson does not want JR Smith or any player like JR Smith.

regardless of Melo's status. He was outplayed virtually every night, regardless of the caliber of the opposing big men. His game fell off the cliff late last year when he was sick and hurt. He never recovered this year. Even his strong suits of defense and rebounding were embarrassing this season.

not on a rookie contract(or league min) should be shopped and traded for assets.

I agree. Outside of Melo, there is no one who consistently did anything other than suck for the last 2 years. Can you imagine where this team be without him?

In comment 11636101 kmed said:

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Phil Jackson does not want JR Smith or any player like JR Smith.

Phil wanted Ron Artest. Phil wanted Dennis Rodman.

2 time world champion and for as crazy as he was he had a very high bbiq...Rodman was nuts but he was a championship player..

I would trade Smith if someone is willing to take him just because it gives more flexibility for 2015, but I think Smith is a decent fit for the triangle and I think Phil can get his craziness under control

values shooters, I think some of you are assuming he won't like JR Smith when JR Smith may in fact be a guy Phil thinks he can mold.

becaus ehe wouldnt be asked to go one on one every single time down the court..he would be a spot up shooter which is what he is best at...

Pacers' GM Kevin Pritchard tweeted that Larry Bird's sources say that Frank Vogel's job is safe.
This tweet comes as a tongue-in-cheek reply to reports that Vogel may be "coaching for his job" in the first round of the playoffs. The Pacers head to Atlanta tied 1-1 with Game 3 looming on Saturday. Vogel may very well be coaching for his job, but it's obvious that Bird and Pritchard want to grab control of this situation before the media runs wild with it. Well played, Mr. Pritchard.

In comment 11636147 MookGiants said:

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In comment 11636101 kmed said: Quote: Phil Jackson does not want JR Smith or any player like JR Smith. Phil wanted Ron Artest. Phil wanted Dennis Rodman.

I knew someone would make those comparisons and they are terrible. Artest and Rodman were team players. JR Smith is not. It's not just about them being idiots.

he has a low bball IQ and he is an absolute moron. I would bet Phil Jackson wants nothing to do with guys like that on his team. He is not a team player at all and that's what Phil Jackson wants first and foremost.

was not a team player until Phil was his coach.

Phil always thinks he can mold guys. Smith is one of the few shooters the knicks have, and in the triangle thats incredibly important.

Secondly, you are making things up. Artest was always a team player. He was batsh*t crazy, but he was always a guy that would fight(literally) for his team. JR Smith isn't even close to the players Artest and Rodman were, not even close to being in the same conversation.

we have 2 years to build a team, we will find other shooters. Nobody is building a team for tomorrow, it's for the future. I expect JR to be shopped.

the Knicks have so few shooters (and talent in general) that I don't think it's unreasonable to believe Jackson could see something salvageable in him.

Unrelated- My friend who covers the Knicks (at least until the end of May) says he's heard they will "speak to" Gasol.

was not always a team player, thats bullshit. I've followed Artest since he was in college, he had the label of selfish player until he got to the Lakers, and even then at times got that label.

because I don't see how he can fit at all into our long term plan. If under any circumstances we try to win next season, we are screwed because it's impossible. If we lose Melo, we need to be really bad to get a good pick.

In comment 11636229 DanMetroMan said:

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the Knicks have so few shooters (and talent in general) that I don't think it's unreasonable to believe Jackson could see something salvageable in him. Unrelated- My friend who covers the Knicks (at least until the end of May) says he's heard they will "speak to" Gasol.

Gasol said this during his exit interview...he said he would be interested to see what they have to say...

Hey if getting Pau means getting Marc the following year i am ok with it

gonna be spinning their wheels. But, I'll take his words at face value for now.
---

And while discussing his vision for the franchise, he further advised not to expect anything typical in his approach.

"We are caught in all sports, not just basketball, of a lot of copycat things; what happens to people who win or how winning basketball is played and we try to replicate it, or duplicate it," he said.

"No one's quite been able to do the same thing that Gregg Popovich has done in San Antonio or we were able to do in various cities I've coached in, because it takes a tremendous amount of coaching. It takes a tremendous amount of fundamental skills.

"And a lot of times, our league is so bent on defense or [the] limited amount of time to teach skills, that we get caught up in just replicating what other people do, because that's the common denominator."

Jackson then added, "I'm not looking for a coach in that regard."

""As much as I think that there's been a big change in the game with a lot of screen-rolls and guys standing out on the corners shooting threes, it's not the way I like to see basketball played," he said. "I like to see all the players involved, in playmaking skills and in operating the offense itself, with ball-movement and player-movement and done with a purpose."

http://sulia.com/alanhahn/

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If Melo leaves you tank like you have never tanked before and get Okafor...

I don't mind this strategy, but I don't see Phil tanking. I don't think he wants to give up a year by being 1 of the worst teams in basketball. I could be wrong and it wouldn't bother me, I just can't see Phil doing it. I believe he will do whatever he can to put the best team possible on the court.

In comment 11636314 NJGiantFan84 said:

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Quote: If Melo leaves you tank like you have never tanked before and get Okafor... I don't mind this strategy, but I don't see Phil tanking. I don't think he wants to give up a year by being 1 of the worst teams in basketball. I could be wrong and it wouldn't bother me, I just can't see Phil doing it. I believe he will do whatever he can to put the best team possible on the court.

I agree but i also disagree...Phil said he is not building a team for next year he is building a team for the next 5 years...the best way to do that is trade Chandler for draft picks tank and then you have unlimited space and resources to build a phil jackson team...

I do think Phil wants to be competitive next year but he is not going to risk the future by taking on salary this year..he wants that flexibility next year..

I think if Melo resigns i think they go with a very veteran team for next year then the following year will be about bringing in other stars...

Al Iannazzone ‏@Al_Iannazzone 4m
Oscar Robertson on SiriusXM NBA Radio said if he were Carmelo Anthony, "I would leave today."

think Phil tanks if Melo walks. Phil knows better than anyone that you need a superstar to win a title in the NBA. Quickest way to a superstar is a top 5 pick or convincing Lebron to come here. Nobody the Knicks can sign/trade for is going to convince Lebron James to come here if Melo walks outside of a high pick young star. I'd be stunned if Phil "tried to compete" with a mediocre roster.

is there doesn't look to be a star in the 2014 class like most people believed with 2013 class. Obviously we have to see how these guys perform in their freshman year of college but it doesnt seem like the 2015 draft will be a strong one

why Jackson is despised by the coaching fraternity in the NBA. A long-time NBA coach is a friend of mine that I've known since my college days. What Jackson did in relaying exit-interview comments by players breaches protocol. It also gives him leverage against the Sharpton-Lee angle in case this goes Black-White with Kerr's hiring, although thank God, the NBA is 20 years past that cheap shit. Jackson is also using the press to intimidate his one star, either to keep him cheaply or entice him to walk so Phil can start completely fresh. What an ego! He gets 12 million a year this 70-year old, who can spend half of his time with his fianc� in LA. Hey better get over the cold feet and get married, bud. Time's winged chariot is nipping at your ass.

This all reminds me of what Red Auerbach had to say about him: the rest of us have to work for a living. Also, somebody did not remind Jackson of the tax implications of playing in NYC, NY vs the cited Lover's Threesome in Miami & Duncan in Texas. Carmelo is supposed to play for 5.7 next year. He probably is responsible for the upkeep & maintenance of over 50 people. OK Phil, let's see what you have.

Using the media in regards to melo was a great move and it's not the first time he's used the media to get to a star. Public perception is very, very important and this will help.

does sound pretty weak for a potential #1 overall. He sounds like Greg Monroe type. Mudiay sounds intriguing. Karl Towns is very intriguing (and local).

said Melo takes to much grief playing in New York and its to hard for him to be in New York thats why he should leave...

so basically people in New York are to mean to Melo and he should leave...give me a break...

and Towns would be the 2 guys I'm most interested in for the upcoming college season. Towns seems like he's tailor made to be a star in NYC. Turner sounds intriguing too. These bigs that have late growth spurts tend to have more skills.

Man talk about being ridiculous. Carmelo Anthony may not get the love of a Lebron or Durant (he's not as good or successful) but he very rarely is critiqued very much outside of message boards. The media is nice to him and the fans are too.

he is not going to wow you with athleticism and shot blocking and that type of stuff but his offensive game and back to the basket game is very polished for a high school senior...the guy can flat out score and rebound...he is very good..

I question the Duke choice though because of the perimiter game Coach K likes to play..

I just get the feeling Okafor is closer to a Monroe type (nice player) or maybe Al Jefferson (nicer player) than a superstar. #1 overall pick you likely want more upside. Love isn't a great athlete but he can shoot which is a huge difference.

In comment 11636428 DanMetroMan said:

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Man talk about being ridiculous. Carmelo Anthony may not get the love of a Lebron or Durant (he's not as good or successful) but he very rarely is critiqued very much outside of message boards. The media is nice to him and the fans are too.

Yeah that's ridonculous. First off, the Knicks were a 35 win team and they were selling out the garden late in the season when the season was pretty much over. Secondly, the fans were all chanting M-V-P for Melo in said disasterous season. The media might give him grief, but that's just what they do. Melo is beloved by fans that go to the games. Stupid comment.

Al Iannazzone ‏@Al_Iannazzone 21m
More Big O on Melo: "f I were Carmelo I would say, �Listen, I�m not gonna stay here and take all this gruff and all this criticism...."

Ian Begley ‏@IanBegley 17m
Hall of Famer Oscar Robertson says on @SiriusXMNBA that Carmelo should leave the #Knicks as an FA because he gets criticized too often in NY

And Isola is making a big deal about jackson saying Melo should take a pay cut

Frank Isola ‏@FisolaNYDN 20m
Did Phil ever advise Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Shaq or Kobe to take a pay cut?
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Frank Isola ‏@FisolaNYDN 21m
It's also not Carmelo's responsibility to fix the mess that Phil Jackson inherited.

Says it could prove costly for Knicks and Melo will leave because of it...

I guess Frank missed it when Phil said Melo told him in his exit interview he will take less for the Knicks as long as the plan that is presented to him he likes which Phil then said when that time comes the plan with what he wants will be presented..

In comment 11636433 DanMetroMan said:

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I just get the feeling Okafor is closer to a Monroe type (nice player) or maybe Al Jefferson (nicer player) than a superstar. #1 overall pick you likely want more upside. Love isn't a great athlete but he can shoot which is a huge difference.

Yeah i am not sure what player he will become i just like his game...your right he probably wont be a dominent big man because he doesnt have the athleticism...i am just interested to see what he does at Duke...with all the shooters they have he should be able to dominate in the paint...

so there is no comparison.

play in NY you will get grief from the media. Honestly, I think they are rather fair with Melo. I'm not his biggest fan but he's a really good player and I think most people view him/treat him as such.

roudy as the garden was in late March of a lost season chanting M-V-P for Melo??? The writers write to sell stories, it has nothing to do with how the fans view players. Every single star faces criticism, that's just the way it is, but NY fans are very, very good to Melo.

In comment 11636412 DanMetroMan said:

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does sound pretty weak for a potential #1 overall. He sounds like Greg Monroe type. Mudiay sounds intriguing. Karl Towns is very intriguing (and local).

There is a kid going to SMU next year Emmanuel Mudiay who NBADraft.net compares to John Wall and projects as #1 overall.

6'5, 190 pound point guard who will play under Larry Brown next season.

If the Knicks have to stink next season and this guy plays up to his billing, than that would be just fine.

Mudiay and Towns are 2 guys I am eying if we tank it. I'll fully admit I only know them from youtube, scouting reports but both are intriguing.

has the ESPN machine behind him now, so expect even more shit-stirring. He knows those mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging subhumans at that God-awful network will eat it up all day.

Had to laugh at that Red Auerbach quote. Must've been tough on ol' Red, coaching six billion Hall of Famers.

actually "backtracked" or clarified his article a bit saying that it wasn't a big deal (the current issue) but it was something to look for going forward. He also thinks Phil will coach the team if he can convince Lebron or Durant to sign here.

In comment 11636497 DanMetroMan said:

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actually "backtracked" or clarified his article a bit saying that it wasn't a big deal (the current issue) but it was something to look for going forward. He also thinks Phil will coach the team if he can convince Lebron or Durant to sign here.

Thanks Dan didnt see the back track...

A lot of people have been saying that...i wouldnt be shocked but if he hires Kerr i doubt he would do that to him...i see more of a Riley/Spoelstra tandme where Kerr can get Phil's advice and Kerr coach on gamedays

In comment 11636473 kmed said:

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roudy as the garden was in late March of a lost season chanting M-V-P for Melo??? The writers write to sell stories, it has nothing to do with how the fans view players. Every single star faces criticism, that's just the way it is, but NY fans are very, very good to Melo.

The problem is that it isn't interesting to write or call a radio show about how great melo is and how much you love him. So the vocal minority who dislike him get the air time and the quotes in the paper because that sells and people want to debate it. So there is a perception that Melo is not beloved by NY fans and that just isn't so. The silent majority is thrilled he is a Knick.

I do, however, think the media & pundits (in general) likes to take shots at him because of his lack of a Championship. So they discuss how he can't win a championship because he doesn't make his teammates better or that he won't pass up the big shot etc. etc. The reality is that nobody can win a championship on their own. They all need at least another star and a supporting cast. LeBron couldn't do it, Jordan didn't do it, Kobe didn't do it etc. etc. It's a hackneyed argument the media loves to parrot.

And that's not likely to happen much. It runs contrary to Duke's famous "Hoist 35 threes per game" offense.

In comment 11636486 DanMetroMan said:

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Mudiay and Towns are 2 guys I am eying if we tank it. I'll fully admit I only know them from youtube, scouting reports but both are intriguing.

That is the quickest way to rebuild this team. If the Knicks can have one cost controlled player who happens to turn into a superstar, they can use the other money to fill out the roster.

That is why it sucks to have lost the draft picks they have given away.

Isiah years they could have right now Aldridge and Noah as their PF and C

to the 2000-2001 season. They had basically squeezed everything they had out of a battered lineup the prior season, inexplicably making it the Finals. That was about the end of the Knicks glory years. They were in a critical point with 2 expensive and expiring contracts.

They traded Ewing before the season for a bunch of crap. If that wasn't bad enough, they traded an even worse expiring contract in Chris Childs during the season. And to make matters worse, before he even played a game for the Knicks they extended Mark Jackson's deal.

With Ewing, they should simply have squeezed one last year out of him. Once the season started, his bitching would have been a non-issue because nobody on that team worked or played harder than him. As for Childs, he always sucked and they should simply have let the bad deal run its course. those two huge contracts expiring, with the right front office moves, could have saved the franchise a decade plus of mediocrity.

In comment 11635900 DanMetroMan said:

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idea how true it is but there have been rumors one of the pacers fucked another players wife/girlfriend and that's why they had that strange funk.

Ahhh the old Danny Kanell doing Sehorn's ex wife story.

Ian Begley ‏@IanBegley 3m
Phil doesn't plan to wait to see which NBA coaches may be fired after the playoffs before making a hire: "No, that's not part of my deal."

In comment 11636216 kmed said:

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Secondly, you are making things up. Artest was always a team player. He was batsh*t crazy, but he was always a guy that would fight(literally) for his team. JR Smith isn't even close to the players Artest and Rodman were, not even close to being in the same conversation.

I don't love J.R. Smith either, but the player we saw the last two months of the season, when he was completely healthy and focused, would help ANY team regardless of the head coach.

In comment 11636526 nygiants16 said:

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Isiah years they could have right now Aldridge and Noah as their PF and C

Hindsight is 20/20 my friend... I don't ever like trading draft picks, but had they taken Rondo over Renaldo Balkman we wouldn't have PG issues either.

Don't do this to yourself. You're just gonna wind up making yourself sick lol

You pinpointed the problem on JR Smith. when has anyone seen that player for a full season?

In comment 11636986 Matt M. said:

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You pinpointed the problem on JR Smith. when has anyone seen that player for a full season?

That's exactly what I was going to say. He shows flashes of quality play, he shows flashes of being a complete malcontent and he shows flashes of terrible play. That's who JR is.

If he's so valuable to a team, then we will see how many teams line up to trade for him. Phil needs to be careful how he presents it though, he can't announce that he's trading everyone because he will be trading from a position of weakness. Anxious to see how he goes about this offseason.

said that he was so valuable to a team. Some of us believe that Phil will want to give him a chance because he can shoot and those players are very valuable to the triangle offense.

when he said JR Smith would help any team.

JR Smith is a loser. JR Smith cares about JR Smith and he really doesn't seem to care about himself that much either. JR Smith is never going to be a key player on a winning team because he's going to let you down if you count on him. I hope Phil Jackson looks to trade him this offseason and when he can't find a taker, hopefully next offseason.