NFT: pine tar

MLB is not going to have umpires check every inch of every glove, belt, hat etc between each inning of a 162 game schedule.

If you put in on the umps and baseball then you really would have a farce because there is zero chance of it being enforced evenly or fairly towrds every team throughout the entire season.

The onus is where it should be and that is on the opposing manager to make the accusation to the umpire.

Well since it is banned like you say then being discreet about it should not excuse someone from using it. An ump can't do anything about it unless a manager says something about it is just stupid. Get rid of it or allow it.

legal?

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Major League Baseball Rule 8.00 governs behavior for pitchers. Subsection 8.02 clearly states: “The pitcher shall not apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball.” That means any substance. Even spit balls are illegal. The penalty for violating this rule is immediate ejection from the game, and a possible suspension.

Saying it's legal if used discretely isn't that like saying steroids and PED's are legal if you don't get caught?

The root of the problem is the MLB. Don't have grey rules. Keep things black and white. If its banned enforce the rule.

But currently its a grey area where if you are discreet about it nobody cares. SO just be discreet about it. Pineda crossed a line of discreetness last night. He basically forced the managers hand to say something because it was blatantly obvious. Very different from Lester and Bucholtz

I really can't understand the outrage. The enforcement of the rule is dumb but Pineda is a fucking idiot.

if another manager points it out to the ump. Much like they did last night when they had to enforce the rules.

that's my problem with it. I really don't care if my team's pitcher uses pine tar because everyone does it.

But placing it on your neck so the whole world can see is about as dumb as it gets. It was just so obvious that it felt almost like Pineda or the Yanks were making an intentional statement. Just weird and I think Pineda should and will get a 5 or 6 game suspension and miss a start.

"Major League Baseball Rule 8.00 governs behavior for pitchers. Subsection 8.02 clearly states: 'The pitcher shall not apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball.'”

Pine tar is not a "foreign substance." It's from North Carolina.

(statement attributed to Jim Kaat)

I just addressed why it is not realistic or practical to put it on MLB and the umpires in my last post. Do so would be a nightmare wrought with fans and teams feeling they are either being targeted or allowed to be victimized. The onus is correctly on the managers to complain.

In comment 11636208 Giants Fan in Steelers Land said:

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The root of the problem is the MLB. Don't have grey rules. Keep things black and white. If its banned enforce the rule.

There is nothing grey about the rule, but saying "just enforce it" is a little unrealistic. Should the umps check the pitcher and his equipment every inning as he walks to the mound? Examine the ball after every pitch to look for any residue? There's no practical way to enforce a rule about doctoring the ball if pitchers are effective at concealing it. Gaylord Perry made a good living off of that impracticality.

In comment 11636212 kmed said:

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if another manager points it out to the ump. Much like they did last night when they had to enforce the rules.

False. LaRussa told the umps about Kenny Rogers in the 2006 Series, and all he had to do was wipe off his hand.

was Billy Martin in the right or not? Was he a hypocrite? Should Brett's Home run be chalked up as "part of the game".

I look at it as sort of like the "in the neighborhood rule" for double plays. It should be overlooked if it's within reason and not if it's excessive. Obviously, what's within reason and excessive is subjective. I have no clue as whether it was wrong for Farrell to go out or not. It's worth noting that Girardi, Cashman, and Pineda had more of an issue with Pineda than with Farrell

IMO is greatly different because that is done largely because of player safety. This is likely mostly "tolerated" by majority of manager for their own long term self interest.

The rules should be enforced equally however there is always going to be some subjectivity. In the case of Rogers didn't the umps conclude that it was likely just some dirt mixed in with rosin (which is allowed) that had kind of clumped up? Pure pine tar would be hard to just simply wife off easily with a towel.

In comment 11636259 Bill L said:

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was Billy Martin in the right or not? Was he a hypocrite? Should Brett's Home run be chalked up as "part of the game". I look at it as sort of like the "in the neighborhood rule" for double plays. It should be overlooked if it's within reason and not if it's excessive. Obviously, what's within reason and excessive is subjective. I have no clue as whether it was wrong for Farrell to go out or not. It's worth noting that Girardi, Cashman, and Pineda had more of an issue with Pineda than with Farrell

I'm talking about 2014. Not going to sit here and defend Billy Martin and what he did 30/40 years ago. Different time, different game. I wasn't alive then, so it's irrelevant to what i'm talking about.

In comment 11636319 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 11636259 Bill L said: Quote: was Billy Martin in the right or not? Was he a hypocrite? Should Brett's Home run be chalked up as "part of the game". I look at it as sort of like the "in the neighborhood rule" for double plays. It should be overlooked if it's within reason and not if it's excessive. Obviously, what's within reason and excessive is subjective. I have no clue as whether it was wrong for Farrell to go out or not. It's worth noting that Girardi, Cashman, and Pineda had more of an issue with Pineda than with Farrell I'm talking about 2014. Not going to sit here and defend Billy Martin and what he did 30/40 years ago. Different time, different game. I wasn't alive then, so it's irrelevant to what i'm talking about.

In other words, the Yankees did it so it doesn't count.

glad someone was able to dig up a super relevant example to help there argument...

I'll answer the question though just for fun. Martin WAS a hypocrite!!!!!!

Does that make things better?

sometime this decade, then you'd have a point.

The actions of a guy who died 25 years ago have a direct bearing on this discussion, UConn.

if he calls out lester for it? He would have to be based on the arguments in this thread right?

are people here really bringing up the George Brett pine tar incident as their retort? Seriously? That shit was 30 years ago, half of BBI wasn't even alive then.

Come on now, Sox fans.

In comment 11636357 Aaron in MA said:

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if he calls out lester for it? He would have to be based on the arguments in this thread right?

Your manager changed the rules of the game last night. Not Girardi.

since the root of this debate has been whether or not Farrell is a hypocrite, in order for that incident to be even a tad bit relevant here, would there have to be proof that players on that 1983 ( lol, 1983) Yankees team were indeed using bats that were loaded up with pine tar beyond the legal length on the barrel, as George Brett did?

Pineda gets caught = likely suspension
Brett gets caught = home run restored

Pineda was using pine tar in a really obvious way in his prior start, the media response from both teams was yeah... most guys use something, but he needs to be more discrete. And then he fucks up and is really blatant about it again? The real story is that Pineda made a dumbass mistake despite prior warning and got called on it. If any of the Red Sox pitchers are that obvious going forward and get called on they'll deserve it too for being that damn stupid. A little common sense goes a long way, the kid fucked up.

You are the man, and I respect the hell out of you. But Yankee fans argument during this entire thing has absolutely been about the hypocrisy of it. Every one of us know that Pineda is a moron. He fucked up. No doubt about it and deserves everything he has coming. I absolutely agree with that. I even said so in the game thread.

It was you very own fellow Sox fans that brought up Billy freaking Martin and asked if he was a hypocrite too. That's who I was responding to

nothing more. To call it anything else would be flat out wrong.

And to reiterate, I fully stand by the impending Pineda suspension. He deserves it.

Magary sums this up pretty well.

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So here is the basic unofficial stance on pitchers using pine tar in baseball: 1. Lots of guys use it. 2. It helps to prevent you from killing people. 3. It's not legal. 4. But we won't point that out unless you're being indiscreet about it. Do you understand how fucking insane this is? If Pineda had lodged that pine tar in his asscrack, no one would have cared. His actual (nominal) cheating, then, wasn't the issue; the problem was that by being so IN YOUR FACE about it, he breached some nebulous form of baseball etiquette and thus deserved to be punished. Pine tar is apparently just a red button you push when you feel the need to call out a player who isn't following proper cheating decorum.

Link - ( New Window )

If it was another team that hadn't been spotted multiple times using it, it might be alittle different. But that's not the case here.

There was no prior warning...at least not officially. Neither the Sox nor the league addressed the pine tar. That only occurred in the media.

it's that Pineda had to know, absolutely had to know, that after the last outing he was going to be scrutinized the next time out. I'm stunned that he was that stupid about it.

And that doesn't shock me in the least.

Even in that situation the Yankees were guilty of hypocritical behavior. I forget if the story was that Cerone or Nettles pointed out the pine tar prior to the game or early in the game. But, the Yankees made a strategic decision to use that information only if they felt they needed to.

1. What Farrell should have done is have one of his players warn McCann about it since Farrell had stated that he had no problem with it. Then if Pineda had not moved it somewhere where it could not have been seen, then go to the umps. At least he could have said he warned him. But that would have been a classy move so..........

2. Brett got caught for something that was illegal and the umps did the right thing. If it was illegal, MLB should not have overturned their own rule. And how can you say Martin was a hypocrite? Which Yankee had pine tar above the limit on the bat?

3. I wish Martin had been our manager last night.I am old enough to remember Casey's Boy. And Ralph and Casey.

It is very likely any number of Yankees had pine tar above the allowed amount. Also, remember that Nettles had a bat break and rubber balls come tumbling out.

In comment 11636562 Matt M. said:

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Even in that situation the Yankees were guilty of hypocritical behavior. I forget if the story was that Cerone or Nettles pointed out the pine tar prior to the game or early in the game. But, the Yankees made a strategic decision to use that information only if they felt they needed to.

Do you even know what hypocritical behavior even is? I can't believe I'm even entertaining a topic that happened 30 years ago, but the Yankees knowing that Brett was using an illegal bat, and waiting for the right moment to address it is NOT hypocritical behavior. That would be, as I mentioned earlier, if the Yankees had a bunch of guys on their own team that were doing the same thing. I've never heard anything to suggest that they did. Have you? THAT is being hypocritical.

Most of the league was doing the same. It just so happened Brett's bat had more pine tar than most and he was a most hated and deadly rival. They made a calculated move not just to say something but say it when they did.

"very likely." Really? That's concrete.

It was okay to have pine tar on the bat. It just could not go up a certain distance on the bat.

If, as some have said, Cashman was criticizing the manager/coaches, and taking that together with the Red Sox comments that the real issue is how blatant the use of pine tar was, maybe Cashman’s criticism is actually about his people not instructing Pineda about how to hide the pine tar properly.

Show me some articles. I remember that day and I don't recall any mention of Yankee players doing the same thing. George Brett had the reputation for loading up the pine tar.

Now, I'm not saying that no Yankees player didn't do it, but I don't remember that being a big issue at the time

I have seen interviews with Yankees and other players from that era about this. The pine tar exceeding the label or the max distance was not uncommon. It happened among the Yankees.

and Brett was known for loading up. That is why he, specifically was the target...that and the fact that he absolutely killed them.

If the Yankees did indeed have players using illegally pine tarred bats , then yes, Martin was absolutely being hypocritical. Happy?

Doesn't change the subject at hand...

Agreed. I also find that Brett situation completely irrelevant both in terms of what happened, how it was discovered, and how long ago it was. It is also a hitter vs. a pitcher. Pineda's use was much more blatant. And, given what happened his last time out, extremely stupid.

That doesn't change the fact that the Sox were being petty. In that regard, it is similar to the Brett situation because the Yankees were being petty too.

without people bitching and pointing fingers at different sides. The whole topic is full of "the rule is stupid, they need to fix it" versus people who don't like the Yankees saying "no, your player is stupid. Stop cheating and stop whining."

were Don Mattingly playing 2B when play resumed and Guidry playing CF. In Guidry's Yankeeography, they talked a lot about that. Much like Mo recently, Guidry was considered the fastest Yankee and an excellent CF. They loved that he got to play there.

In comment 11636635 Matt M. said:

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were Don Mattingly playing 2B when play resumed and Guidry playing CF. In Guidry's Yankeeography, they talked a lot about that. Much like Mo recently, Guidry was considered the fastest Yankee and an excellent CF. They loved that he got to play there.

I think the best thing from that game was Brett's sprint out of the dugout and his rant with the umps. Classic.
Brett rant on youtube - ( New Window )

One thing to cheat. Its flat out insulting to do it blatantly for the 2nd time in 10 days. Farrell let it go last time and had to field questions after the game and before last unites game about it. Pineada gave him no choice.

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