NFT: pine tar

like he could have done a better job of hidding it

Well what's the difference if it's discreet or not? If Farrell doesn't have a problem with it, why would it matter whether it's in his glove, on his forearm, or on his neck?

I'd argue that having it on his neck makes it more clear what he's using than if he hid it away in his glove and left it up to the imagination what he was using.

it wouldn't seem so ridiculous.

It's baseball, discretion is important.

You don't need to touch second base on double plays. If you're discreet.

I'm curious why Pineda needed to be so blatant. Seemed like a political stand.

is that even if the umps notice something, they can't do anything about it until the other team brings it to their attention? Huh? That just makes no freakin sense. So, the crew that is paid to control the action on the field, can completely ignore any form of cheating so long as the team doesn't notice it? Strange rule

How come McCann or Girardi didn't tell him to wipe it off?
That said, the pink hat nation is even more insufferable today. The righteous indignation nation is more like it.
I cannot turn on the radio or TV today or I'll puke.
We need to pound the crap out of them tonight.

Possibly setting up Boston for some kind of retaliation in a big game. It was just to blatant.

In comment 11635769 Buck Dharma said:

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it wouldn't seem so ridiculous.

That's just simply bullshit. Contrarian bullshit. Lester and Buckholtz both use substances every time they pitch. Every. Single. Time. Lester did it in the World Series. The entire planet seen it. It seems he didn't hide it very well either. But nobody calls them out. So don't give us this "if it was the Red Sox..." nonsense

tighter and the cover is tighter and slicker than it was a generation ago. Add in that new balls are brought in seemingly after every at bat and it id near impossible to get a good grip on the ball on a cold night.

I have NEVER seen such a ridiculously childish response to someone CHEATING and getting caught.

Pineda had pine tar on his neck for the world to see, after having it on his hand for the world to see. He got caught, he will get punished.

I am a Red Sox Fan and if Lester gets caught for the same thing, he will deserve the same treatment. I don't understand the vitriol here.

when he put it on it looked like the same color as his skin and thought it was discreet but TVs and all the lights on the field picked up the contrast better.


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/it-s-always-sunny--sources-say-sunscreen-trick-is-pitchers--latest-way-to-gain-an-edge-173953962.html - ( New Window )

In comment 11635790 Aaron in MA said:

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I have NEVER seen such a ridiculously childish response to someone CHEATING and getting caught. Pineda had pine tar on his neck for the world to see, after having it on his hand for the world to see. He got caught, he will get punished. I am a Red Sox Fan and if Lester gets caught for the same thing, he will deserve the same treatment. I don't understand the vitriol here.

Stick that up your ass

Clay Bucholz was caught using heavy duty sunscreen on his arm for grip in a game played at night in a dome. He wasn't suspended. Jon Lester had a foreign substance in his glove in the World Series. He wasn't suspended. The high majority of pitchers use a substance to grip the ball, especially in cold weather, and most batters are fine with it since it means they are less likely to get hit with an errant pitch.

Suspending Pineda would be a laughable admission by the league that they are okay with the ostrich defense-- so long as they can't see it obviously, they don't care. Well, the effect is the same.

And if that's the case, MLB has a lot of nerve given the last time they claimed ignorance on a practice that most players were engaging in.

Don't f---ing cheat.

I love how everyone they ask that says it really doesn't give you an edge are pitchers. Leiter, Cone, Ojeda, Darling. Yeah a few batters said they don't care but ask this. Is it possible certain pitchers pitch better in warm weather and suck in cold weather. I would say yes. So basically using pine tar evens the playing field. They need a better grip. What does the better grip allow? A pitcher will say they want better control so not to hit the batter. I argue they want to be able to throw pitches like curves and sliders and not just fastballs. If a pitcher is limited to just a fastball, he will be done in 3-4 innings. Does that then give them an edge? Yes.

Is it ok to cork a bat because batters don't hit the ball as far in March and April?

If you are going to cheat I think being discrete is the only way to do it. Sticking an illegal substance on your palm or neck in the wide open and being surprised especially after being warned is just plain dumb.

And the it's okay to use pine tar discreetly rule seems completely idiotic.

How does that make any sense?

The rule states that a complaint regarding the use of foreign substances must be made by a manager. Without that initial complaint (see John Farrell's discussion with Gerry Davis) the umpires and MLB are powerless to act even if they see it happening clear as day

In comment 11635799 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 11635790 Aaron in MA said: Quote: I have NEVER seen such a ridiculously childish response to someone CHEATING and getting caught. Pineda had pine tar on his neck for the world to see, after having it on his hand for the world to see. He got caught, he will get punished. I am a Red Sox Fan and if Lester gets caught for the same thing, he will deserve the same treatment. I don't understand the vitriol here. Stick that up your ass

Aw, shit...Now it's on!

they face for the rest of the season. Every. Single. One.

In comment 11635831 Greg from LI said:

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they face for the rest of the season. Every. Single. One.

Yeah! Because the Yankess have NEVER complained about pine tar.

In comment 11635790 Aaron in MA said:

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I have NEVER seen such a ridiculously childish response to someone CHEATING and getting caught. Pineda had pine tar on his neck for the world to see, after having it on his hand for the world to see. He got caught, he will get punished. I am a Red Sox Fan and if Lester gets caught for the same thing, he will deserve the same treatment. I don't understand the vitriol here.

Again, and I don't know why this is so freaking hard to understand. Farrell went to the umps while every team that the Red Sox play don't say a word about it. Look at those pics that Greg posted. Does that look like those clowns are being discreet? The only thing that separates those two and Pinedas stupid ass is the 2 faced manager of one of the teams complained. If you want to consider that "being caught " and therefore ok , more power to ya. They were all caught. As evidenced by photos.

there is no proof that Lester and Bucholz use pine tar every single game. In fact, there is a picture of each using something once. I'd bet they have used it more than once, but settle down. When you need to exagerrate like that, it hurts your cause.

It's illegal, he's a complete moron for putting it in such a visible location on national TV after being caught against the same team a few starts ago. If you are going to cry and moan, cry and moan about Pineda, not what Lester and Clay did last year.

I just don't understand why it's illegal. If hitters can use it to get a better grip on the bat, why can't pitchers use it to get a better grip on the ball?

way more discrete.

Stop making sense!

MLB should take a hard look at this and decide what to do. On the neck is blatant, but on the glove or wrist is discreet?

... the next time he faces Ortiz, he should drill him in his fat @$$ (nowhere that he could hurt him) and then claim that he couldn't get a good grip on the ball. Everyone would have to believe him, right?

:-)

There are images of Lester using pine tar on the forearm in one game. His glove in another. And his hat in a third one. With buck I haven't seen hard "evidence" but the talk around baseball is he uses some kind of hair gel or something or the sort but if he pitches like he did his last start he can do whatever he wants

I recall a playoff game where Kenny Rogers was clearly using pine tar and Larussa saw it and didn't say anything. Al leiter has said that almost every pitcher uses pine tar to get a better grip on the ball. It doesn't help with movement mainly for control. He also stated it's more apparent in the early part of the season and playoff time when the temps drop

let's receivers use stickum and lineman can use Vaseline on their Jerseys

In comment 11635841 Peter in Atlanta said:

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Yeah! Because the Yankess have NEVER complained about pine tar.

Ouch.

to warm up. Do the umps have any discretion to limit him if he's being ridiculous and just taking forever? If a pitcher has to sit too long, like a rain delay, he'll often be taken out rather than come back into the game. Could the yankees have just decided "screw it, if they're going to pull that to get Pineda out of the game, we'll get Lackey out", and told Phelps to just keep throwing warmup pitches for like 30 minutes, telling the ump he still wasn't loose? I realize that's completely ridiculous, but if Farrell wants to play games, why not? Does anyone know of a situation where an injury or ejection replacement pitcher has taken a really long time and the umps have finally told him he's done warming up and he either has to pitch or get replaced himself by another reliever?

But his manager then blew up the dugout camera for catching Pineda cheating.

Way to set an example, Joe.

Can someone explain to me how it's possible to be a Giants fan *and* a Red Sox fan?

In comment 11635954 trueblueinpw said:

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Can someone explain to me how it's possible to be a Giants fan *and* a Red Sox fan?

that's a lot easier than explaining the pine tar. Back in the day (pre-AFL), the Giants were the professional football team of choice for a lot of New England. The Patriots came along, but old loyalties can run deep.

Also, the Giants did training camp in Connecticut for a number of years, in areas that are about 50-50 as concerns the Yanks and Bosox.

since Farrell used the word and it is frequently repeated in this thread and this topic, I think it's worth the PSA that the word is "discreet," and not "discrete."

In comment 11635934 Modus Operandi said:

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But his manager then blew up the dugout camera for catching Pineda cheating. Way to set an example, Joe.

That's not quite how it went down. After being thrown out, Pineda and some coaches were in the tunnel of the dugout. There seemed to be a camera somewhere in the dugout that was attempting to catch what should have been a private moment out of the public eye and Girardi moved the camera and then stood in front of it so it coudln't shoot into the tunnel behind the dugout.

My grandfather and father were/are loyal Giants supporters as there was no franchise in New England. I inherited there Giants loyalty even though I was born in the 70's. Root for the other Boston franchises. Despise the Patriots.

is much more discreet(thanks Paul!) than on your freaking neck a week after getting caught with it on the palm of your hand.

It's as simple as that. Lt's cry about the Red Sox being "scumbags" or why Ortiz didn't get caught using PEDs. Not "wow Pineda was just dumb."

It's known that it happens but other people don't get caught.

yea Red Sox!

just like that. thanx.

Whatever it is, if there's something negative that happens, half of bbi Yankee fans point fingers at the Sox. It's pathetic. Pineda is such a moron, he deserved to be thrown out.

In comment 11635799 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 11635790 Aaron in MA said: Quote: I have NEVER seen such a ridiculously childish response to someone CHEATING and getting caught. Pineda had pine tar on his neck for the world to see, after having it on his hand for the world to see. He got caught, he will get punished. I am a Red Sox Fan and if Lester gets caught for the same thing, he will deserve the same treatment. I don't understand the vitriol here. Stick that up your ass

OK. Can you guys read? Im fine with sox pitchers getting caught and suspended for it if they do it. If Girardi wants to speak up about it, please do. Im not into cheating. MY point isnt that the yankees are the only team that does it. My point is if you get caught, you get punished.

is that every manager basically chalks it up to part of the game, except for yours.

Getting punished for cheating isn't what's being argued.

Basically, your manager is a hypocrite.

whatever.

since that's what the rules dictate. The argument lies with a manager who has multiple players doing the same thing. It doesn't change what happened, but it sure looks bad on his part.

It will come back to bite him, no doubt in my mind. Hopefully its in October.

that the Sox had no choice but to say something. Have you ever seen it so blatantly obvious in a situation like this one? 2 weeks ago it was a huge story against the same team with the same pitcher. I also think he went to the ump and I thought I read his lips when he said "tell him to wipe it off". Either way, it was so blatantly obvious that the Sox had no choice.

In regards to the Sox guys, it's never been noticed DURING the game. At least from what I've seen, it's always a vid or still shot after the game is over(that's called being discreet). Much different than what happened yesterday.

cause he's the only guy who's won anything...

What does him winning (and having a pitcher cheat they very same way in the WS no less) have to do with him being or not being a hypocrite?

In comment 11636008 UConn4523 said:

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is that every manager basically chalks it up to part of the game, except for yours. Getting punished for cheating isn't what's being argued. Basically, your manager is a hypocrite.

Didn't the RedSox manager just chalk it up the previous time Pineda was blatant about it?

But there isn't any rule that it is OK is only used discreetly. It is a foreign substance that isn't allowed. The thing is the opposing manager has to complain and since it is likely many teams have pitchers on their staff who may at times try and "hide" a little somewhere managers obviously prefer to let it slide in most cases. If however a manager chooses to complain and the umps check and find it as a result the player should be tossed.

maybe his pitcher was using it that night too, who knows.

Either way I don't really care about the whole thing. Just funny that Lester did it in the World Series and no one cares.

1) According to the rule, suspension is automatic. So, I fully expect a suspension.

2) It doesn't matter if other guys do it or not. He was blatant and caught. The ejection was the correct move by the umpires once the Sox pointed it out.

3) The only thing that bother me here is the hypocrisy by the Sox and their fans. Their pitchers have been highlighted as having done the same thing. The only reason I can think they didn't say anything previously is their pitcher was doing the same that night.

4) I'm with Greg. It may be a moot point, though. I am sure the Sox will now be diligent with their pitchers when facing the Yankees especially. Just for the Hell of it, though, I would request to check every pitcher and even look at any bat that looks like it might have excessive pine tar. Basically, anything they can nitpick about, I would do it.

...

the reason people are saying it's ok to use it descreetly is because it won't be caught during the game. If noticed by cameras, it will be after the game and at that point, MLB can't do anything about it. If it's not discreet and cameras spot it during the game like last night, in an attempt to make a story, then the managers have no choice but to say something. Thats what people mean.

In comment 11636008 UConn4523 said:

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is that every manager basically chalks it up to part of the game, except for yours. Getting punished for cheating isn't what's being argued. Basically, your manager is a hypocrite.

So, coaches cant point out obvious violations of the rules to umpires and refs without being hypocrites? So coughlin cant yell about a holding call because the Giants get away with holding too?

Oh, because its baseball and theres "unwritten rules". Bull. If youre a manager and you see something like that, you are an idiot for not pointing it out to the ump IMO

that no one calls in during games to notify the managers. Seems like that would be so simple nowadays. Unless they do and just ignore it.

is that the Red Sox went out of their way after the last game to say it was no big deal, and they would rather the guy had a grip than not. I thought I remembered even the manager saying it was no big deal. Definitely a dick move on their part after saying those things, but they also know the Yankees are pussies and will never retaliate. From Big Ploppi and his interminable trots, to allowing the red sox to hit A rod without consequence, to not bunting when Schilling was hobbled, the Yanks don;t hold anyone accountable. So to those expecting some kind of payback for this, don't hold your breath.

Accuse every single one of those motherfuckers every single game. You know they'll catch at least one of them.

holding and pinetar are the same thing...

Not going to argue about it. Like I said, I don't really care what happened. Just seems strange that you won a World Series, cheating in the process, but then point fingers. It's just like steroid use and the excuses of Ortiz and whoever else not getting caught. We all know he/they do/did them.

Either let it be legal for everyone to use or ban it completely. This not discreet and discreet stuff is bullshit and stupid

True, but why the big question to why it is wrong even when obvious? It is always wrong, and if used so latently how can anyone complain if enforced?

Also I bet if teams really wanted to they could have someone watching the television feeds just for that purpose and complain more often, it really wouldn't be hard to do at all. But I go back to my original point that it is likely most managers prefer to just look the other way.

I just don't see any real confusion here it simply is what it is, a rule that will be enforced if a player is found to be using it at the time and complained about doing so by the opposing manager.

Surprised they didn't find a sander underneath his cap

.

it is banned for everybody.

Because of all this bullshit, everyone will forget that Jeter can't field his position anymore.

*

who said last week that it's not just not a big deal, but necessary for batters' safety. Something like: "We use PT to get a grip on the ball. So it's either MLB pitchers using PT, or they pitch without grip and batters get hit in the head by out-of-control pitches."

1) It is hypocritical because his pitchers have been blatantly guilty of doing the same thing. Looking back at the first incident, I am now convinced the Sox said nothing because they knew their own pitcher was doing the same thing. Last night, Lackey was probably clean, hence the complaint.

2) I don't think anyone is actually condoning the cheating when they say do it discreetly. It is more along the lines of, if you want to get away with it or have the "unwritten rule" applied, don't have the shit out in the open and certainly don't do it a a second time against the same team in a week's time. That's just dumb.

3) By the rules, Pineda absolutely should have been ejected. I have no problem with the umpires decision.

4) I think the last couple of years have given enough incidents and evidence to re-visit the rule for this. Why can't the umpires examine a player when it is so blatant until the opposing manager complains? Should they just allow the use of pine tar at the umpires' discretion, as they do with going to the mouth?

In comment 11636044 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

that no one calls in during games to notify the managers. Seems like that would be so simple nowadays. Unless they do and just ignore it.

It seems there would be a competitive advantage for a team to have someone on payroll intensely watching every camera for the slightest hint of this, to alert the team in real-time and have the pitcher removed.

No one does that because the practice is so widespread. It would boomerang on anyone who tried.

Which is why Girardi needs to start constantly going to umpires about Sawx pitchers.

it would be an advantage. You'd be scouting for cheating, but why wouldn't that be allowed?

I'm not advocating it, just curious if teams do it, or why they don't do it.

but like with anything, there's a lag to take advantage.

Not just pitchers. They should be checking bats, make sure uniforms are standard, complain about jewelry, etc. They should just nitpick everything. And, for the love of G-d, nail Ortiz square in the back already.

I didn't mean competitive advantage in a negative way, I meant it positively.

He should be mad at his own player for being so dumb about how he went about it. He uses it so openly and just after having used it the game before against the same team. So much so in that game that they were asked about it but the Boston players chose to just played it down. So for him to come back and then so blatantly do it was practically and insult which begged to be complained about. There is zero chance they complain if he had a small amount tucked away inside his glove. He was a dope and this is the result. I think Girardi will be smart and let it die at that.

The one thing you bring up that is being largely ignored about Girardi and Rothchild os not the retaliation, but the accountability. It is not just Pineda who was stupid. How do the manager and pitching coach let him go out like that last night? did they not see him go back into the clubhouse? Did they not see his neck?

mentioned on MLB radio why didn't the Yankee pitchers or coaches teach him out to use it discretly. They make a good point.

Good point, but realistically it was likely when he was on the mound when they first saw it themselves. What are they to do at that point? I guess they could have went to the mound with a towel and had him wipe it off, but that stuff doesn't come off easy probably need something else like turpentine to help beak it up so that would have just been an embarrassing nightmare of an event to be played on highlights for decades to come. It really falls on the pitcher.

discreetly or having it hidden in a glove is a distinction without a difference. If the belief is that using pine tar for grip is cheating, then it doesn't matter where the pitcher hid the pine tar. It would have the same result.

In fact, I believe it's better when it is out in the open for everyone to see. No one cares about using pine tar for extra grip, and most batters would prefer that the pitchers have the ability to grip the ball and not pitch like Rick Vaughn on Opening Day.

When the substance is hidden, then we become unaware of exactly what the pitcher is using. Maybe he has a file that allows him to scuff the ball, maybe it's something else.

When it's out in the open, we know what the pitcher is using and how he is using it, and we can see that it is purely for some grip.

This is just another example of MLB knowing what the majority of players are doing, that it violates the written rules, but are pleading ignorance and leaving it as a Wild West situation where it becomes only about which players get caught as nothing more than a PR stunt to act as if they are ridding the sport of bad behavior.

What a farce.

couldn't have said it better myself.

that the pinetar was not really noticeable in the dugout where the lighting is not nearly as bright. Pineda is dark and close in complexion to the color of pinetar, and why would a manager have any reason to think to look at his neck. I wouldn't have noticed it in the dugout.

I think it was only when he was out in the open on the field, under the bright lights of Fenway, or on camera that you could see the substance because of the way it reflected the lights.

of my original post. (Sorry for using "discrete" instead of "discreet," though. Hadn't had my coffee yet.)

It seems that Pine Tar is wink-nod cheating to a lot of people. It has this throwback element of gamesmanship as a euphemism for cheating, where wily players are just finding an edge. Statements like "if you're not cheating you're not trying" and "it's not cheating if you don't get caught" sort of romanticize this idea.

As a result, it's seen as a far, far lesser evil than performance enhancing drugs.

have McCann or whoever is catching put it on the ball they rarely check the catchers!! Just ask Yogi!!! he'd cut up the ball for Whitey (Ford that is ;-0).

MLB is not going to have umpires check every inch of every glove, belt, hat etc between each inning of a 162 game schedule.

If you put in on the umps and baseball then you really would have a farce because there is zero chance of it being enforced evenly or fairly towrds every team throughout the entire season.

The onus is where it should be and that is on the opposing manager to make the accusation to the umpire.

Well since it is banned like you say then being discreet about it should not excuse someone from using it. An ump can't do anything about it unless a manager says something about it is just stupid. Get rid of it or allow it.

legal?

Quote:

Major League Baseball Rule 8.00 governs behavior for pitchers. Subsection 8.02 clearly states: “The pitcher shall not apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball.” That means any substance. Even spit balls are illegal. The penalty for violating this rule is immediate ejection from the game, and a possible suspension.

Saying it's legal if used discretely isn't that like saying steroids and PED's are legal if you don't get caught?

The root of the problem is the MLB. Don't have grey rules. Keep things black and white. If its banned enforce the rule.

But currently its a grey area where if you are discreet about it nobody cares. SO just be discreet about it. Pineda crossed a line of discreetness last night. He basically forced the managers hand to say something because it was blatantly obvious. Very different from Lester and Bucholtz

I really can't understand the outrage. The enforcement of the rule is dumb but Pineda is a fucking idiot.

if another manager points it out to the ump. Much like they did last night when they had to enforce the rules.

that's my problem with it. I really don't care if my team's pitcher uses pine tar because everyone does it.

But placing it on your neck so the whole world can see is about as dumb as it gets. It was just so obvious that it felt almost like Pineda or the Yanks were making an intentional statement. Just weird and I think Pineda should and will get a 5 or 6 game suspension and miss a start.

"Major League Baseball Rule 8.00 governs behavior for pitchers. Subsection 8.02 clearly states: 'The pitcher shall not apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball.'”

Pine tar is not a "foreign substance." It's from North Carolina.

(statement attributed to Jim Kaat)

I just addressed why it is not realistic or practical to put it on MLB and the umpires in my last post. Do so would be a nightmare wrought with fans and teams feeling they are either being targeted or allowed to be victimized. The onus is correctly on the managers to complain.

In comment 11636208 Giants Fan in Steelers Land said:

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The root of the problem is the MLB. Don't have grey rules. Keep things black and white. If its banned enforce the rule.

There is nothing grey about the rule, but saying "just enforce it" is a little unrealistic. Should the umps check the pitcher and his equipment every inning as he walks to the mound? Examine the ball after every pitch to look for any residue? There's no practical way to enforce a rule about doctoring the ball if pitchers are effective at concealing it. Gaylord Perry made a good living off of that impracticality.

In comment 11636212 kmed said:

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if another manager points it out to the ump. Much like they did last night when they had to enforce the rules.

False. LaRussa told the umps about Kenny Rogers in the 2006 Series, and all he had to do was wipe off his hand.

was Billy Martin in the right or not? Was he a hypocrite? Should Brett's Home run be chalked up as "part of the game".

I look at it as sort of like the "in the neighborhood rule" for double plays. It should be overlooked if it's within reason and not if it's excessive. Obviously, what's within reason and excessive is subjective. I have no clue as whether it was wrong for Farrell to go out or not. It's worth noting that Girardi, Cashman, and Pineda had more of an issue with Pineda than with Farrell

IMO is greatly different because that is done largely because of player safety. This is likely mostly "tolerated" by majority of manager for their own long term self interest.

The rules should be enforced equally however there is always going to be some subjectivity. In the case of Rogers didn't the umps conclude that it was likely just some dirt mixed in with rosin (which is allowed) that had kind of clumped up? Pure pine tar would be hard to just simply wife off easily with a towel.

In comment 11636259 Bill L said:

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was Billy Martin in the right or not? Was he a hypocrite? Should Brett's Home run be chalked up as "part of the game". I look at it as sort of like the "in the neighborhood rule" for double plays. It should be overlooked if it's within reason and not if it's excessive. Obviously, what's within reason and excessive is subjective. I have no clue as whether it was wrong for Farrell to go out or not. It's worth noting that Girardi, Cashman, and Pineda had more of an issue with Pineda than with Farrell

I'm talking about 2014. Not going to sit here and defend Billy Martin and what he did 30/40 years ago. Different time, different game. I wasn't alive then, so it's irrelevant to what i'm talking about.

In comment 11636319 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

In comment 11636259 Bill L said: Quote: was Billy Martin in the right or not? Was he a hypocrite? Should Brett's Home run be chalked up as "part of the game". I look at it as sort of like the "in the neighborhood rule" for double plays. It should be overlooked if it's within reason and not if it's excessive. Obviously, what's within reason and excessive is subjective. I have no clue as whether it was wrong for Farrell to go out or not. It's worth noting that Girardi, Cashman, and Pineda had more of an issue with Pineda than with Farrell I'm talking about 2014. Not going to sit here and defend Billy Martin and what he did 30/40 years ago. Different time, different game. I wasn't alive then, so it's irrelevant to what i'm talking about.

In other words, the Yankees did it so it doesn't count.

glad someone was able to dig up a super relevant example to help there argument...

I'll answer the question though just for fun. Martin WAS a hypocrite!!!!!!

Does that make things better?

sometime this decade, then you'd have a point.

The actions of a guy who died 25 years ago have a direct bearing on this discussion, UConn.

if he calls out lester for it? He would have to be based on the arguments in this thread right?

are people here really bringing up the George Brett pine tar incident as their retort? Seriously? That shit was 30 years ago, half of BBI wasn't even alive then.

Come on now, Sox fans.

In comment 11636357 Aaron in MA said:

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if he calls out lester for it? He would have to be based on the arguments in this thread right?

Your manager changed the rules of the game last night. Not Girardi.

since the root of this debate has been whether or not Farrell is a hypocrite, in order for that incident to be even a tad bit relevant here, would there have to be proof that players on that 1983 ( lol, 1983) Yankees team were indeed using bats that were loaded up with pine tar beyond the legal length on the barrel, as George Brett did?

Pineda gets caught = likely suspension
Brett gets caught = home run restored

Pineda was using pine tar in a really obvious way in his prior start, the media response from both teams was yeah... most guys use something, but he needs to be more discrete. And then he fucks up and is really blatant about it again? The real story is that Pineda made a dumbass mistake despite prior warning and got called on it. If any of the Red Sox pitchers are that obvious going forward and get called on they'll deserve it too for being that damn stupid. A little common sense goes a long way, the kid fucked up.

You are the man, and I respect the hell out of you. But Yankee fans argument during this entire thing has absolutely been about the hypocrisy of it. Every one of us know that Pineda is a moron. He fucked up. No doubt about it and deserves everything he has coming. I absolutely agree with that. I even said so in the game thread.

It was you very own fellow Sox fans that brought up Billy freaking Martin and asked if he was a hypocrite too. That's who I was responding to

nothing more. To call it anything else would be flat out wrong.

And to reiterate, I fully stand by the impending Pineda suspension. He deserves it.

Magary sums this up pretty well.

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So here is the basic unofficial stance on pitchers using pine tar in baseball: 1. Lots of guys use it. 2. It helps to prevent you from killing people. 3. It's not legal. 4. But we won't point that out unless you're being indiscreet about it. Do you understand how fucking insane this is? If Pineda had lodged that pine tar in his asscrack, no one would have cared. His actual (nominal) cheating, then, wasn't the issue; the problem was that by being so IN YOUR FACE about it, he breached some nebulous form of baseball etiquette and thus deserved to be punished. Pine tar is apparently just a red button you push when you feel the need to call out a player who isn't following proper cheating decorum.

Link - ( New Window )

If it was another team that hadn't been spotted multiple times using it, it might be alittle different. But that's not the case here.

There was no prior warning...at least not officially. Neither the Sox nor the league addressed the pine tar. That only occurred in the media.

it's that Pineda had to know, absolutely had to know, that after the last outing he was going to be scrutinized the next time out. I'm stunned that he was that stupid about it.

And that doesn't shock me in the least.

Even in that situation the Yankees were guilty of hypocritical behavior. I forget if the story was that Cerone or Nettles pointed out the pine tar prior to the game or early in the game. But, the Yankees made a strategic decision to use that information only if they felt they needed to.

1. What Farrell should have done is have one of his players warn McCann about it since Farrell had stated that he had no problem with it. Then if Pineda had not moved it somewhere where it could not have been seen, then go to the umps. At least he could have said he warned him. But that would have been a classy move so..........

2. Brett got caught for something that was illegal and the umps did the right thing. If it was illegal, MLB should not have overturned their own rule. And how can you say Martin was a hypocrite? Which Yankee had pine tar above the limit on the bat?

3. I wish Martin had been our manager last night.I am old enough to remember Casey's Boy. And Ralph and Casey.

It is very likely any number of Yankees had pine tar above the allowed amount. Also, remember that Nettles had a bat break and rubber balls come tumbling out.

In comment 11636562 Matt M. said:

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Even in that situation the Yankees were guilty of hypocritical behavior. I forget if the story was that Cerone or Nettles pointed out the pine tar prior to the game or early in the game. But, the Yankees made a strategic decision to use that information only if they felt they needed to.

Do you even know what hypocritical behavior even is? I can't believe I'm even entertaining a topic that happened 30 years ago, but the Yankees knowing that Brett was using an illegal bat, and waiting for the right moment to address it is NOT hypocritical behavior. That would be, as I mentioned earlier, if the Yankees had a bunch of guys on their own team that were doing the same thing. I've never heard anything to suggest that they did. Have you? THAT is being hypocritical.

Most of the league was doing the same. It just so happened Brett's bat had more pine tar than most and he was a most hated and deadly rival. They made a calculated move not just to say something but say it when they did.

"very likely." Really? That's concrete.

It was okay to have pine tar on the bat. It just could not go up a certain distance on the bat.

If, as some have said, Cashman was criticizing the manager/coaches, and taking that together with the Red Sox comments that the real issue is how blatant the use of pine tar was, maybe Cashman’s criticism is actually about his people not instructing Pineda about how to hide the pine tar properly.

Show me some articles. I remember that day and I don't recall any mention of Yankee players doing the same thing. George Brett had the reputation for loading up the pine tar.

Now, I'm not saying that no Yankees player didn't do it, but I don't remember that being a big issue at the time

I have seen interviews with Yankees and other players from that era about this. The pine tar exceeding the label or the max distance was not uncommon. It happened among the Yankees.

and Brett was known for loading up. That is why he, specifically was the target...that and the fact that he absolutely killed them.

If the Yankees did indeed have players using illegally pine tarred bats , then yes, Martin was absolutely being hypocritical. Happy?

Doesn't change the subject at hand...

Agreed. I also find that Brett situation completely irrelevant both in terms of what happened, how it was discovered, and how long ago it was. It is also a hitter vs. a pitcher. Pineda's use was much more blatant. And, given what happened his last time out, extremely stupid.

That doesn't change the fact that the Sox were being petty. In that regard, it is similar to the Brett situation because the Yankees were being petty too.

without people bitching and pointing fingers at different sides. The whole topic is full of "the rule is stupid, they need to fix it" versus people who don't like the Yankees saying "no, your player is stupid. Stop cheating and stop whining."

were Don Mattingly playing 2B when play resumed and Guidry playing CF. In Guidry's Yankeeography, they talked a lot about that. Much like Mo recently, Guidry was considered the fastest Yankee and an excellent CF. They loved that he got to play there.

In comment 11636635 Matt M. said:

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were Don Mattingly playing 2B when play resumed and Guidry playing CF. In Guidry's Yankeeography, they talked a lot about that. Much like Mo recently, Guidry was considered the fastest Yankee and an excellent CF. They loved that he got to play there.

I think the best thing from that game was Brett's sprint out of the dugout and his rant with the umps. Classic.
Brett rant on youtube - ( New Window )

One thing to cheat. Its flat out insulting to do it blatantly for the 2nd time in 10 days. Farrell let it go last time and had to field questions after the game and before last unites game about it. Pineada gave him no choice.

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