NFT: pine tar

like he could have done a better job of hidding it

Well what's the difference if it's discreet or not? If Farrell doesn't have a problem with it, why would it matter whether it's in his glove, on his forearm, or on his neck?

I'd argue that having it on his neck makes it more clear what he's using than if he hid it away in his glove and left it up to the imagination what he was using.

it wouldn't seem so ridiculous.

It's baseball, discretion is important.

You don't need to touch second base on double plays. If you're discreet.

I'm curious why Pineda needed to be so blatant. Seemed like a political stand.

is that even if the umps notice something, they can't do anything about it until the other team brings it to their attention? Huh? That just makes no freakin sense. So, the crew that is paid to control the action on the field, can completely ignore any form of cheating so long as the team doesn't notice it? Strange rule

How come McCann or Girardi didn't tell him to wipe it off?
That said, the pink hat nation is even more insufferable today. The righteous indignation nation is more like it.
I cannot turn on the radio or TV today or I'll puke.
We need to pound the crap out of them tonight.

Possibly setting up Boston for some kind of retaliation in a big game. It was just to blatant.

In comment 11635769 Buck Dharma said:

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it wouldn't seem so ridiculous.

That's just simply bullshit. Contrarian bullshit. Lester and Buckholtz both use substances every time they pitch. Every. Single. Time. Lester did it in the World Series. The entire planet seen it. It seems he didn't hide it very well either. But nobody calls them out. So don't give us this "if it was the Red Sox..." nonsense

tighter and the cover is tighter and slicker than it was a generation ago. Add in that new balls are brought in seemingly after every at bat and it id near impossible to get a good grip on the ball on a cold night.

I have NEVER seen such a ridiculously childish response to someone CHEATING and getting caught.

Pineda had pine tar on his neck for the world to see, after having it on his hand for the world to see. He got caught, he will get punished.

I am a Red Sox Fan and if Lester gets caught for the same thing, he will deserve the same treatment. I don't understand the vitriol here.

when he put it on it looked like the same color as his skin and thought it was discreet but TVs and all the lights on the field picked up the contrast better.


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/it-s-always-sunny--sources-say-sunscreen-trick-is-pitchers--latest-way-to-gain-an-edge-173953962.html - ( New Window )

In comment 11635790 Aaron in MA said:

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I have NEVER seen such a ridiculously childish response to someone CHEATING and getting caught. Pineda had pine tar on his neck for the world to see, after having it on his hand for the world to see. He got caught, he will get punished. I am a Red Sox Fan and if Lester gets caught for the same thing, he will deserve the same treatment. I don't understand the vitriol here.

Stick that up your ass

Clay Bucholz was caught using heavy duty sunscreen on his arm for grip in a game played at night in a dome. He wasn't suspended. Jon Lester had a foreign substance in his glove in the World Series. He wasn't suspended. The high majority of pitchers use a substance to grip the ball, especially in cold weather, and most batters are fine with it since it means they are less likely to get hit with an errant pitch.

Suspending Pineda would be a laughable admission by the league that they are okay with the ostrich defense-- so long as they can't see it obviously, they don't care. Well, the effect is the same.

And if that's the case, MLB has a lot of nerve given the last time they claimed ignorance on a practice that most players were engaging in.

Don't f---ing cheat.

I love how everyone they ask that says it really doesn't give you an edge are pitchers. Leiter, Cone, Ojeda, Darling. Yeah a few batters said they don't care but ask this. Is it possible certain pitchers pitch better in warm weather and suck in cold weather. I would say yes. So basically using pine tar evens the playing field. They need a better grip. What does the better grip allow? A pitcher will say they want better control so not to hit the batter. I argue they want to be able to throw pitches like curves and sliders and not just fastballs. If a pitcher is limited to just a fastball, he will be done in 3-4 innings. Does that then give them an edge? Yes.

Is it ok to cork a bat because batters don't hit the ball as far in March and April?

If you are going to cheat I think being discrete is the only way to do it. Sticking an illegal substance on your palm or neck in the wide open and being surprised especially after being warned is just plain dumb.

And the it's okay to use pine tar discreetly rule seems completely idiotic.

How does that make any sense?

The rule states that a complaint regarding the use of foreign substances must be made by a manager. Without that initial complaint (see John Farrell's discussion with Gerry Davis) the umpires and MLB are powerless to act even if they see it happening clear as day

In comment 11635799 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 11635790 Aaron in MA said: Quote: I have NEVER seen such a ridiculously childish response to someone CHEATING and getting caught. Pineda had pine tar on his neck for the world to see, after having it on his hand for the world to see. He got caught, he will get punished. I am a Red Sox Fan and if Lester gets caught for the same thing, he will deserve the same treatment. I don't understand the vitriol here. Stick that up your ass

Aw, shit...Now it's on!

they face for the rest of the season. Every. Single. One.

In comment 11635831 Greg from LI said:

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they face for the rest of the season. Every. Single. One.

Yeah! Because the Yankess have NEVER complained about pine tar.

In comment 11635790 Aaron in MA said:

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I have NEVER seen such a ridiculously childish response to someone CHEATING and getting caught. Pineda had pine tar on his neck for the world to see, after having it on his hand for the world to see. He got caught, he will get punished. I am a Red Sox Fan and if Lester gets caught for the same thing, he will deserve the same treatment. I don't understand the vitriol here.

Again, and I don't know why this is so freaking hard to understand. Farrell went to the umps while every team that the Red Sox play don't say a word about it. Look at those pics that Greg posted. Does that look like those clowns are being discreet? The only thing that separates those two and Pinedas stupid ass is the 2 faced manager of one of the teams complained. If you want to consider that "being caught " and therefore ok , more power to ya. They were all caught. As evidenced by photos.

there is no proof that Lester and Bucholz use pine tar every single game. In fact, there is a picture of each using something once. I'd bet they have used it more than once, but settle down. When you need to exagerrate like that, it hurts your cause.

It's illegal, he's a complete moron for putting it in such a visible location on national TV after being caught against the same team a few starts ago. If you are going to cry and moan, cry and moan about Pineda, not what Lester and Clay did last year.

I just don't understand why it's illegal. If hitters can use it to get a better grip on the bat, why can't pitchers use it to get a better grip on the ball?

way more discrete.

Stop making sense!

MLB should take a hard look at this and decide what to do. On the neck is blatant, but on the glove or wrist is discreet?

... the next time he faces Ortiz, he should drill him in his fat @$$ (nowhere that he could hurt him) and then claim that he couldn't get a good grip on the ball. Everyone would have to believe him, right?

:-)

There are images of Lester using pine tar on the forearm in one game. His glove in another. And his hat in a third one. With buck I haven't seen hard "evidence" but the talk around baseball is he uses some kind of hair gel or something or the sort but if he pitches like he did his last start he can do whatever he wants

I recall a playoff game where Kenny Rogers was clearly using pine tar and Larussa saw it and didn't say anything. Al leiter has said that almost every pitcher uses pine tar to get a better grip on the ball. It doesn't help with movement mainly for control. He also stated it's more apparent in the early part of the season and playoff time when the temps drop

let's receivers use stickum and lineman can use Vaseline on their Jerseys

In comment 11635841 Peter in Atlanta said:

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Yeah! Because the Yankess have NEVER complained about pine tar.

Ouch.

to warm up. Do the umps have any discretion to limit him if he's being ridiculous and just taking forever? If a pitcher has to sit too long, like a rain delay, he'll often be taken out rather than come back into the game. Could the yankees have just decided "screw it, if they're going to pull that to get Pineda out of the game, we'll get Lackey out", and told Phelps to just keep throwing warmup pitches for like 30 minutes, telling the ump he still wasn't loose? I realize that's completely ridiculous, but if Farrell wants to play games, why not? Does anyone know of a situation where an injury or ejection replacement pitcher has taken a really long time and the umps have finally told him he's done warming up and he either has to pitch or get replaced himself by another reliever?

But his manager then blew up the dugout camera for catching Pineda cheating.

Way to set an example, Joe.

Can someone explain to me how it's possible to be a Giants fan *and* a Red Sox fan?

In comment 11635954 trueblueinpw said:

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Can someone explain to me how it's possible to be a Giants fan *and* a Red Sox fan?

that's a lot easier than explaining the pine tar. Back in the day (pre-AFL), the Giants were the professional football team of choice for a lot of New England. The Patriots came along, but old loyalties can run deep.

Also, the Giants did training camp in Connecticut for a number of years, in areas that are about 50-50 as concerns the Yanks and Bosox.

since Farrell used the word and it is frequently repeated in this thread and this topic, I think it's worth the PSA that the word is "discreet," and not "discrete."

In comment 11635934 Modus Operandi said:

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But his manager then blew up the dugout camera for catching Pineda cheating. Way to set an example, Joe.

That's not quite how it went down. After being thrown out, Pineda and some coaches were in the tunnel of the dugout. There seemed to be a camera somewhere in the dugout that was attempting to catch what should have been a private moment out of the public eye and Girardi moved the camera and then stood in front of it so it coudln't shoot into the tunnel behind the dugout.

My grandfather and father were/are loyal Giants supporters as there was no franchise in New England. I inherited there Giants loyalty even though I was born in the 70's. Root for the other Boston franchises. Despise the Patriots.

is much more discreet(thanks Paul!) than on your freaking neck a week after getting caught with it on the palm of your hand.

It's as simple as that. Lt's cry about the Red Sox being "scumbags" or why Ortiz didn't get caught using PEDs. Not "wow Pineda was just dumb."

It's known that it happens but other people don't get caught.

yea Red Sox!

just like that. thanx.

Whatever it is, if there's something negative that happens, half of bbi Yankee fans point fingers at the Sox. It's pathetic. Pineda is such a moron, he deserved to be thrown out.

In comment 11635799 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 11635790 Aaron in MA said: Quote: I have NEVER seen such a ridiculously childish response to someone CHEATING and getting caught. Pineda had pine tar on his neck for the world to see, after having it on his hand for the world to see. He got caught, he will get punished. I am a Red Sox Fan and if Lester gets caught for the same thing, he will deserve the same treatment. I don't understand the vitriol here. Stick that up your ass

OK. Can you guys read? Im fine with sox pitchers getting caught and suspended for it if they do it. If Girardi wants to speak up about it, please do. Im not into cheating. MY point isnt that the yankees are the only team that does it. My point is if you get caught, you get punished.

is that every manager basically chalks it up to part of the game, except for yours.

Getting punished for cheating isn't what's being argued.

Basically, your manager is a hypocrite.

whatever.

since that's what the rules dictate. The argument lies with a manager who has multiple players doing the same thing. It doesn't change what happened, but it sure looks bad on his part.

It will come back to bite him, no doubt in my mind. Hopefully its in October.

that the Sox had no choice but to say something. Have you ever seen it so blatantly obvious in a situation like this one? 2 weeks ago it was a huge story against the same team with the same pitcher. I also think he went to the ump and I thought I read his lips when he said "tell him to wipe it off". Either way, it was so blatantly obvious that the Sox had no choice.

In regards to the Sox guys, it's never been noticed DURING the game. At least from what I've seen, it's always a vid or still shot after the game is over(that's called being discreet). Much different than what happened yesterday.

cause he's the only guy who's won anything...

What does him winning (and having a pitcher cheat they very same way in the WS no less) have to do with him being or not being a hypocrite?

In comment 11636008 UConn4523 said:

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is that every manager basically chalks it up to part of the game, except for yours. Getting punished for cheating isn't what's being argued. Basically, your manager is a hypocrite.

Didn't the RedSox manager just chalk it up the previous time Pineda was blatant about it?

But there isn't any rule that it is OK is only used discreetly. It is a foreign substance that isn't allowed. The thing is the opposing manager has to complain and since it is likely many teams have pitchers on their staff who may at times try and "hide" a little somewhere managers obviously prefer to let it slide in most cases. If however a manager chooses to complain and the umps check and find it as a result the player should be tossed.

maybe his pitcher was using it that night too, who knows.

Either way I don't really care about the whole thing. Just funny that Lester did it in the World Series and no one cares.

1) According to the rule, suspension is automatic. So, I fully expect a suspension.

2) It doesn't matter if other guys do it or not. He was blatant and caught. The ejection was the correct move by the umpires once the Sox pointed it out.

3) The only thing that bother me here is the hypocrisy by the Sox and their fans. Their pitchers have been highlighted as having done the same thing. The only reason I can think they didn't say anything previously is their pitcher was doing the same that night.

4) I'm with Greg. It may be a moot point, though. I am sure the Sox will now be diligent with their pitchers when facing the Yankees especially. Just for the Hell of it, though, I would request to check every pitcher and even look at any bat that looks like it might have excessive pine tar. Basically, anything they can nitpick about, I would do it.

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