Reggie White was almost a Giant

The bitch of it was that Zimmerman flat out told Young not to pick him because he would not play in NY.

Can you imagine. And worse Young handed him to Philly.

Thanks a lot, Craig Morton.

imagine that defense. One of the Giants famous missed opportunities

My old man never stopped grousing about the 1965 draft...not sure why, we got the great Tucker Frederickson with the #1 pick, instead of getting stuck with Duck Butkus or Gale Sayers, who went 3 and 4...

Mark Collins Pepper Johnson and Greg Lasker. Not Reggie White but not bad.

was a HOF player. it was by no means a mistake to draft him.

nice to play what if's .... but drafting zimmerman was a pretty good pick

In comment 11637056 Chaka said:

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was a HOF player. it was by no means a mistake to draft him. nice to play what if's .... but drafting zimmerman was a pretty good pick

For the Vikings and Broncos

by the great George Young.

instead of LT.

The guy never played a down for the Giants and Reggie White went to the Eagles. George Young rebuilt the Giants but when he made a mistake it was huge. Drove Parcells and Bill B. out of town too. The man had a gigantic ego and when Zimmerman said don't pick me, George had to show him who was boss. Taking Reggie White would have made the Giants the dominant team of that ERA but George lacked the vision to see it. Save the whales was the nonsense he spouted. George Young sucked and should never be put in the HOF.

If I am ever to own a Jersey of an Egirls it would be his. Told me that I looked like Lenny Wilkens son. Lol. I remember telling him that I was a GiANTS fan.

I agree 100 percent. GY could not adapt to free agency which
cost the giants big time and despiste his two hrs ala Simms and LT was a big time fail in my book.

playing in NY? I recall the topic but not the substance.

who liked to hunt and fish

urbanites know this well.

to think it could have happened

rushing the passer at the same time.

My Lord...

could get Zimmerman to change his mind. After all, his anti-NY stance was somewhat irrational. He would never have had to step foot in the city. Could've lived in Hunterdon or Sussex in NJ and it wouldn't have been much different from Minny or Denver.

those two picks caused the riff between GY and Bill.

Of course, Bill never refers to the instances in which George was right, of which I'm sure there were many.

In comment 11637101 wgenesis123 said:

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The guy never played a down for the Giants and Reggie White went to the Eagles. George Young rebuilt the Giants but when he made a mistake it was huge. Drove Parcells and Bill B. out of town too. The man had a gigantic ego and when Zimmerman said don't pick me, George had to show him who was boss. Taking Reggie White would have made the Giants the dominant team of that ERA but George lacked the vision to see it. Save the whales was the nonsense he spouted. George Young sucked and should never be put in the HOF.

The absurd hate by sniveling "fans" of this team for a man that helped elevate us from league embarrassment to world champion makes my stomach turn. You suck.

In comment 11637185 oipolloi said:

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those two picks caused the riff between GY and Bill. Of course, Bill never refers to the instances in which George was right, of which I'm sure there were many.

Another was Parcells preferring Marion Butts over Dave Meggett.

In comment 11637185 oipolloi said:

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those two picks caused the riff between GY and Bill. Of course, Bill never refers to the instances in which George was right, of which I'm sure there were many.

In 1990 Parcells wanted LB Darion Conner. Young wanted Rodney Hampton. Young got that right.

But later he drafted DE Greg Mark from the U in the 3rd round. Mark was an undersized DE who didn't fit Parcells 2 gap system. To make a point, Parcells played him at NT in the preseason and then cut him.

... to call drafting a HOF a mistake

i get it. he didnt play for us. that part of the gamble didnt pay off. oh well. so then he parlayed those picks into 2 above average players who contributed mightliy to championship teams

george young sucks

Wasn't that the year they picked Collins, Howard, Pepper and Greg Somebody all in the second round?

or is the whiskey finally playing tricks with my memory

howard and collins with those picks

his head coach, so he left with Parcells. Than George Young gave us Ray Handley. I don't hate George Young but I am certain he did not walk on water. He was a good GM who was smart enough to take LT when he fell in his lap. I am tempted to say if the Saints took LT George doesn't win any Super Bowls but you just never know. Maybe without LT he takes Reggie White and who knows where that goes. The Giants lost Lombardi, and they lost Tom Landry, and thanks to George they lost Bill B. too.

if he had picked him

in a 3-4 system?

Do you convert to OLB or make him a 3-4 DE?

Does not know what the hell they are talking about. He was a great GM. If you were a fan of the giants during the late sixties and throughout the seventies then you would know what a great job he did in building the Giants into one of the better franchises in the NFL. And the winning and class culture that we are all so proud of was established by Young. He took us from laughing stocks of the nfl to the class of the league.

He made mistakes like any other GM. The main one was his failure to adapt to free agency and plan B. But this is the guy that drafted Simms LT Banks Marshall Burt Reasons Haynes Morris Bavaro Jumbo Reisenberg Ard etc. and he picked Meggett over the strenuous objection of the sainted Parcells. yeah George Young really sucked. Give me a fucking break!


And the Zimmerman pick was a good pick. The guy could play. It's not like he picked a turd instead of Reggie White. And when Zimmmerman continued his irrational refusal to play in NJ Young converted the pick into two second rounders that played a role in our Super Bowl run. The guy was a hall of fame GM and just what the Giants needed in the late 70s.

Call me when you get your head out of your ass.

I dont get some of this anti George Young sentiment here. Before he got here, the Giants were the Jacksonville Jaguars of the league, possiibly worse. We were a laughingstock organization. He built the Giants from the ground up establishing a modern scouting system and basicslly the organizational structure we see today. Now, I agree that Young did notnhandle free agency well. He did notnbelieve in it and ended up grossly overpaying some Giants to keep the team intact. He also made mistakes with high draft choices. But, anybody who doesnt give credit to Young for building the foundation of what has become a great organization has no idea about the game of football or Giants history.

In comment 11637073 giantsfour said:

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instead of LT.

If the Saints had a real QB/offense in the '80s, maybe they would have made some real noise.

This defense gave Montana plenty of fits, but the offense never did enough to win enough games to challenge for the NFC West. You would be adding strength to an already strong area of the defense. A team like the Falcons would have been a better beneficiary.

In comment 11637343 wgenesis123 said:

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his head coach, so he left with Parcells. Than George Young gave us Ray Handley. I don't hate George Young but I am certain he did not walk on water. He was a good GM who was smart enough to take LT when he fell in his lap. I am tempted to say if the Saints took LT George doesn't win any Super Bowls but you just never know. Maybe without LT he takes Reggie White and who knows where that goes. The Giants lost Lombardi, and they lost Tom Landry, and thanks to George they lost Bill B. too.

Way to stick to your guns. From "He sucks" to "He doesn't walk on water." Did you celebrate his death like buford? Maybe you guys should bake a cake on the next death anniversary.

Did you have any problem with Tuna waiting until May 15 to decide he didn't want to come back?

The only Buford I know of is burried next to Cushing at West Point. Is that what you do Chris? Make a list of dead people and celebrate that they are dead? I am sure you never speak an ill word of anyone dead or alive. Taking the high ground does not suit you well Chris. Your methods are more suited to the lower things in life.

11 balls flying over your head and rattling around in the corner. But do please continue to exhibit what a paragon of class you are with your hysterical ranting about one of the most important figures in the modern history of the franchise.

gave us great memories from the 80s & early 90s.

Anybody suggesting that he "sucked" was asleep during that period and needs some coffee to wake up.

In comment 11637362 NINEster said:

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in a 3-4 system? Do you convert to OLB or make him a 3-4 DE?

That's where Belichick would figure something out. Not to mention, if Leonard Marshall was effective as DE in a 3/4, i'm sure White would have figured it out.

In comment 11637543 Jimmy Googs said:

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gave us great memories from the 80s & early 90s. Anybody suggesting that he "sucked" was asleep during that period and needs some coffee to wake up.

The Giants were a mess b/c the Mara family, which everybody loves now, was a dysfunctional mess. The brothers had not spoken in years so Rozielle put Young in command.

Young did well but he also f'ed up a lot. Botching the coaching staff, NEVER understanding the cap, ignoring the roster during the 87 strike, selecting Dave Brown in the first round of the supplemental draft when we likely would have been there in the 7th round, refusing to trade out of the 5th pick (Cedric Jones) when several teams wanted Lawrence Phillips and earlier the Reggie White fiasco is quite a resume.

Youngs teams won 2 Super Bowls b/c of great coaching and Lawrence Taylor. They could/should have won more and maybe Belichick would have never left in the first place. The Hanley, Reeves and assinine draft picks and lack of cap management led to a dismal 90's b/c of Young.

Did you miss the rosters that Young compiled during that period? To imply it was a couple of guys and Parcells/Belichick is really missing the mark.

Young was a great GM. He wasn't infallible though, and no great GM is. He built the core of a team that won two championships (and without that stupid strike season in between and Tuna's constant desire to jump ship who knows what else might have happened). He took the Giants out of the gutter and brought them to the promised land. The salary cap was definitely his demise, and some of his moves weren't perfect, but overall the guy did a job that was HoF worthy.

was a great GM until the cap. Great, not good.

The cap was new, he bungled it. He wasn't alone in that.

we only won because of coaching and LT can safely be ignored on this topic.

In comment 11637735 dorgan said:

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was a great GM until the cap. Great, not good. The cap was new, he bungled it. He wasn't alone in that.

Per usual, spot on

In comment 11637741 Chris in Philly said:

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we only won because of coaching and LT can safely be ignored on this topic.

Also, per usual, spot on

I do not disagree about the Giant's issues with the salary cap system as other teams were more organized, but his legacy was built way earlier than that.

And the Giants only won because of good coaching and LT??

Then I guess we should really blame Parcells and LT for screwing up the rest of the 1980s when we didn't win the superbowl every year.

In comment 11637686 jcn56 said:

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Did you miss the rosters that Young compiled during that period? To imply it was a couple of guys and Parcells/Belichick is really missing the mark.

Sure, I'm very aware of the rosters he built. I'm also aware of the rosters he didn't build. It wasn't a stoke of genius in drafting Lawrence Taylor. Taylor was the main cog in the team. Any GM could have drafted Lawrence Taylor and George Young didn't so much lead the Giants out of incompetence as much as he added stability b/c the ownership, which was a dysfunctional family mess, wouldn't speak. Heck, maybe the Giants would have been more stable had the family not been a mess long before George Young.

As far as his handling of Parcells, sure, Bill was high maintenance but that is no excuse for the handling of Belichick. Young made is clear Belichick wasn't his guy and ended up with Hanley. Ray Hanley who never coached again and welcomed a read and react defense to the team. Year later, the Giants wanted Parcells back again yet Young went with Fassel. Fassel had some success yet like Hanley, he never coached again. Remember where Parcells went? He went to the Jets and Belichick followed. Where would Belichick be today had the Giants not passed on him in 1991 and rehired Parcells rather than Fassel? That's a pretty shitty GM job when you consider the 90's football which derailed by George Young.

Oh, and anybody believing the Giants were winning Super Bowls in the 80's without that coach and Lawrence Taylor, think again. Young's teams weren't that fantastic and we saw what he did without Taylor and the coaching staff. He built shit.

But before we go off the deep end, you need to play it through. He started playing for the Eagles in 1985 so that is the point of departure. And I think the first period to view is 1985-1990. We won 2 SBs. Would we have won more?

Would he have made a difference in 1985? Would we have won a Super Bowl, beating the Bears in the process? If we do, then 1986 probably doesn't happen given the whole Super Bowl hangover that pretty much kept all teams from repeating for the better part of the decade. Assuming we don't, I think 1986 happens in some way, shape or form. But our draft is dramatically changed. Do we still take Dorsey? Which of Collins, Howard and Johnson do we now not take? Collins was huge in our matchups with Jerry Rice from 1988-1990. Without him, do we win in 1990? Does 1988 become a year we win without having to beat the Jets in week 16? Or do we beat them and run the table in the playoffs? In 1987, the strike, it's hard to see White's presence changing the problems we had that season. It was the hangover, aging of the OL and the strike that afflicted us.

2 super bowls in 5 years. You CAN do better but are you willing to gamble that you wouldn't do worse? What if White got hurt playing our defense and now we don't have some of the other guys (Howard, Collins, Johnson)?

I think I'm like everyone. I salivate at the thought of White with LT. But we weren't winning 5 straight SBs. Would we have won 3? Maybe. 4? Unlikely.

Then there is the post 1990 period--Does having White change when Belichick becomes a HC? Does it change if/when Parcells leaves? And if it does, do we do better in the post Parcells era or are we just as screwed with LT in decline and White looking for his free agency payday?

In any case, if we had White, I bet we go with a more 4/3 bent. Marshall moves inside. Assume we have one of Howard and Dorsey and they play DT next to him. White at LDE and LT playing a similar position as he always did but definitely going forward more often and earlier in his career than he actually did. Unless we draft Swilling and have him play RDE and LT stays at LB.

Carson plays MLB and Banks is SAM. Maybe we have Pepper and maybe not. We already have Reasons so he and Harry probably play similarly to what they did but with some obvious differences. Pepper will ultimately play WILL and then shift to MLB when Harry retires. Or stay at WILL and let Reasons man the middle.

The problem becomes the secondary. Do we have Collins? If not, who do we have? Williams and who else? Patterson flamed out. We will be drafting someone but do we hit or miss? Lasker busted at safety and so did Adrian White but clearly our drafting will have changed. Do we draft other safeties that are successful?

And without Zimmerman in his head, does Young draft OL in 1985? 1986? Does this change our Elliot and Moore draft? Our Kratch and Williams draft?

Again, I'd have loved to taken a shot at this and I always have felt we left at least one SB on the table in 1985, 1988 and 1989 it is hard to do much better than 2 in 5 years (or 6 if you count 1985).

probably left one SB on the table during that time. Maybe Reggie would have made that difference...maybe not.

It would have just been a lot more enjoyable watching Reggie White stand over Randall Cunningham after a sack than over Phil Simms I guess.

would have taken LT. Except the Saints I guess?

point, Mort. Adding White probably would have changed future drafts and all personnel decisions made thereafter.

In comment 11637801 mort christenson said:

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Again, I'd have loved to taken a shot at this and I always have felt we left at least one SB on the table in 1985, 1988 and 1989 it is hard to do much better than 2 in 5 years (or 6 if you count 1985).

We all think of this. Personally, I think 85 was the Bears year regardless. 87 is what it is. The scabs, etc was a mess. Looking back, the 88 and 89 teams I think had a much better shot with White. Not to mention, the 91 team without Hanley may have been something special too.

Missing out of White was mishap. The handling of Belichick was a disgrace. The 90's were a wreck b/c of Young's coaching decisions, his miserable drafting in the first round and his lack of understanding the cap. Considering where Belichick is today and were Fassel and Hanley ended up, well, that's not exactly a good job IMO.

if we win in 1985, does he have an offseason of coke and more and not do any rehab? Do we lose him completely? Or does White perhaps become a mentor to him and maybe help him instead? I'd say unlikely--we had good leaders who tried to help LT (Martin, Carson) and that didn't change anything.