Parcells wanted to take Reggie White over Gary Zimmerman in the 1984 Supplemental Draft of USFL and CFL players. The clip is a interesting watch. Can you imagine Reggie White and Lawrence Taylor on the same team?!?!
Parcells on Reggie White - (
New Window )
The cap was new, he bungled it. He wasn't alone in that.
Dorgan is on point here. Young came in and created an actual organizational structure to the Giants. It seems rote by now, but the idea of "Owners own, coaches coach, players play" came from George Young. Rozelle knew that in order to grow the NFL product, he needed a winner in NY after the Giants floundered for a generation. After he got the structure in place, he had said to build a franchise, at the foundation you need 2 thing: A passer and then guys who can get to the passer. That lesson was followed by Accorsi (who worked under Young) and build the foundation for the second Super Bowl runs in 2007 and 2011.
The problem with Young was his management of the team and resources was set in the 1960s and 1970s. At a time when there was no free agency, and no salary cap. It was a time when you could lock in a Jeff Hostetler as a backup for 6 years and groom him along slowly. Young actually did a decent job in Plan B free agency (Reyna Thompson and Chris Calloway were 2 of the best signings in the entire period). And in the first year of full free agency in 1993, Young did spend alot of money and loaded up the roster for Reeves (the whole NJ Broncos thing). But they went 11-5 and damn near were the #1 seed in the NFC.
What killed Young was the salary cap. He just wasn't nimble enough to handle the renegotiations, the trades, etc. By 1994, he had to more or less let his entire secondary go because their cap wasn't managed well. He screwed up re-signing Meggett after 1994. The Giants botched the whole matching the 49ers contract for Hampton because of public pressure (they should have let him go). And ultimately, one of Young's strengths in drafting gems late would hurt him in the cap. For instance, Derek Brown as a first round pick (paid first round money), was a bust, but Aaron Pierce drafted in the same draft later, was a better player and had to be paid more money as his contract ended earlier, so they had to double dip. More busts like Thomas Lewis, Dave Brown, etc. Paid as first rounders meanwhile they had to go and pay more money for lesser round picks who were starting (Bratzke, Widmer, etc).
As the Giants floundered, their main competition in the NFC was running circles around them in Dallas, Green Bay, and the Niners (with Carmen Policy cheating up a storm with the cap).
One of the best moments though came in 1997, after Young had taken such crap for the failures from 1994-1996, in his final season as GM, was him sitting at the Giants bench, with a big smile on his face after the Giants beat Washington to win the NFC East and at least have him go out with a division title.
Good post - the blame for losing Belichick would make more sense if he stepped into another situation and truly excelled. Reading a handful of books on him, it seems he needed that failure to later succeed. He's made similar comments as well.
You could be correct yet we both know Ray Hanley was a mess. Sure, Parcells left after BB accepted the Brown job but likely only b/c Young made it clear BB wasn't going to be the future coach.
Years later, we know Mara wanted Parcells back. BB likely would have followed.
Young brought stability to the dysfunctional Mara family and the Giants won. I guess I'm just ticked that Young's stubbornness robbed us of more great memories. IMO, the 90's were derailed by Young's stubbornness.
Mort, I had posted this in one of the game reviews that I did for the 1991 Giants vs. Oilers game in rehashing the Handley mess, and how it wasn't all Handley's fault.
If the Giants were not wed to Belichick (they weren't). They had already elevated Handley to offensive coordinator to give him a raise and keep him from going to law school. In the process they moved Ron Erhardt to an assistant head coach spot. When Parcells resigned, the Giants, who were clearly grooming Handley, just pushed him to the head coaching job. But Handley kept the dual title of Head Coach and Offensive Coordinator. And in doing so, he actually demoted Erhardt to essentially a quality control job.
The right play by the Giants should have been to name Erhardt the head coach when Parcells left (Erhardt had a 10 win and a 9 win season as head coach of the Patriots in the 1970s) and let Handley find his way as the offensive coordinator with a transition plan in place to give Handley the job (Erhardt was in his 60s by this point). Else, if they had to make Handley the head coach, they should have forced him to give the offensive coordinator duties to Erhardt and take advantage of his experience.
It was the worst case scenario in that Handley did both jobs (poorly) and marginalized Erhardt.
Quote:
nobody has been a bigger fan of Belichick than I have been from day 1. And I have always defended his Cleveland years as not the disaster others made it out to be. But to be completely fair, he isn't the same Belichick in NE that he was in Cleveland. I don't know if he deserved to be fired (I've always argued no) but there is no question that being canned by Modell allowed him to learn certain lessons that he might not have learned if he hadn't failed to some degree in Cleveland. And handing him the job in NY with a team he'd been DC for and at a young age (he was still very young in 1990) was no slam dunk. If you're going to play the what if game, you need to be honest. Belichick in NE and Belichick as DC in NY/HC in Cleveland are different people than Belichick the HC of NE. And that isn't even getting into the whole Tom Brady part of the equation.
You could be correct yet we both know Ray Hanley was a mess. Sure, Parcells left after BB accepted the Brown job but likely only b/c Young made it clear BB wasn't going to be the future coach.
Years later, we know Mara wanted Parcells back. BB likely would have followed.
Young brought stability to the dysfunctional Mara family and the Giants won. I guess I'm just ticked that Young's stubbornness robbed us of more great memories. IMO, the 90's were derailed by Young's stubbornness.
Weren't the early 90's Giants an older team that were pretty much destined for a few bad years once the core retired or declined, barring superb front office work in drafting superb young talent?
Genuinely asking since I was too young then.
Weren't the early 90's Giants an older team that were pretty much destined for a few bad years once the core retired or declined, barring superb front office work in drafting superb young talent?
Genuinely asking since I was too young then.
No, that team was still young. The OL, Hampton, Meggett & Ingram were still very young. They just didn't replenish the stock, then botched their coaching and QB. Granted, the Cowboys and 49ers became real powerhouses while the only team more physical than the Giants were the Eagles (led by White, how ironic).
The Redskins were often manhandled by the Giants. With the right coaching, that 91 Giants team would have beaten that Skins team. Literally, that Skins team just threw bombs all day long. Also, had Cunningham not been injured, the Eagles would have annihilated that Redskins team.
You're lucky to have been too young to remember. The Giants botched their first round picks, coaching and the cap as bad as anybody.
Quote:
Weren't the early 90's Giants an older team that were pretty much destined for a few bad years once the core retired or declined, barring superb front office work in drafting superb young talent?
Genuinely asking since I was too young then.
No, that team was still young. The OL, Hampton, Meggett & Ingram were still very young. They just didn't replenish the stock, then botched their coaching and QB. Granted, the Cowboys and 49ers became real powerhouses while the only team more physical than the Giants were the Eagles (led by White, how ironic).
The Redskins were often manhandled by the Giants. With the right coaching, that 91 Giants team would have beaten that Skins team. Literally, that Skins team just threw bombs all day long. Also, had Cunningham not been injured, the Eagles would have annihilated that Redskins team.
You're lucky to have been too young to remember. The Giants botched their first round picks, coaching and the cap as bad as anybody.
The offense had some young guys to work with, but not the defense. The Giants defense got old. LT, Banks, Reasons, Marshall, Perry Williams, Walls, Dorsey, all of them were either 30 or older than 30. The had a couple of guys in their prime Pepper, Howard, Guyton, Jackson. But there was no young replenishment of linebackers. They tried with Kanavis McGhee but he was a bust. Corey Miller never really reached his potential.
Also, by 1991, they lost 2 of the top defensive minds in the NFL in Parcells and Belichick and handed the keys to Al Groh. Groh was pretty good, but not on that level.
Quote:
nobody has been a bigger fan of Belichick than I have been from day 1. And I have always defended his Cleveland years as not the disaster others made it out to be. But to be completely fair, he isn't the same Belichick in NE that he was in Cleveland. I don't know if he deserved to be fired (I've always argued no) but there is no question that being canned by Modell allowed him to learn certain lessons that he might not have learned if he hadn't failed to some degree in Cleveland. And handing him the job in NY with a team he'd been DC for and at a young age (he was still very young in 1990) was no slam dunk. If you're going to play the what if game, you need to be honest. Belichick in NE and Belichick as DC in NY/HC in Cleveland are different people than Belichick the HC of NE. And that isn't even getting into the whole Tom Brady part of the equation.
Mort, I had posted this in one of the game reviews that I did for the 1991 Giants vs. Oilers game in rehashing the Handley mess, and how it wasn't all Handley's fault.
If the Giants were not wed to Belichick (they weren't). They had already elevated Handley to offensive coordinator to give him a raise and keep him from going to law school. In the process they moved Ron Erhardt to an assistant head coach spot. When Parcells resigned, the Giants, who were clearly grooming Handley, just pushed him to the head coaching job. But Handley kept the dual title of Head Coach and Offensive Coordinator. And in doing so, he actually demoted Erhardt to essentially a quality control job.
The right play by the Giants should have been to name Erhardt the head coach when Parcells left (Erhardt had a 10 win and a 9 win season as head coach of the Patriots in the 1970s) and let Handley find his way as the offensive coordinator with a transition plan in place to give Handley the job (Erhardt was in his 60s by this point). Else, if they had to make Handley the head coach, they should have forced him to give the offensive coordinator duties to Erhardt and take advantage of his experience.
It was the worst case scenario in that Handley did both jobs (poorly) and marginalized Erhardt.
Spot on Matt. It was clear from day 1 that Handley was in over his head, the biggest clue being when he publicly suggested that Simms and Hostetler share the QB job. Even Tom Landry couldn't pull that one off with Morton and Staubach. Erhardt would have been a perfect transition HC.
the ramifications are too significant to just interchange one draft pick as your post makes clear
well done
the giants have won 4 Super Bowls and an additional NFC. championship and the Eagles have won nothing so reason to be envious of them having Reggie. no organization has more success over these years then us. how much better could we really have done?
In comment 11637801 mort christenson said:
Would he have made a difference in 1985? Would we have won a Super Bowl, beating the Bears in the process? If we do, then 1986 probably doesn't happen given the whole Super Bowl hangover that pretty much kept all teams from repeating for the better part of the decade. Assuming we don't, I think 1986 happens in some way, shape or form. But our draft is dramatically changed. Do we still take Dorsey? Which of Collins, Howard and Johnson do we now not take? Collins was huge in our matchups with Jerry Rice from 1988-1990. Without him, do we win in 1990? Does 1988 become a year we win without having to beat the Jets in week 16? Or do we beat them and run the table in the playoffs? In 1987, the strike, it's hard to see White's presence changing the problems we had that season. It was the hangover, aging of the OL and the strike that afflicted us.
2 super bowls in 5 years. You CAN do better but are you willing to gamble that you wouldn't do worse? What if White got hurt playing our defense and now we don't have some of the other guys (Howard, Collins, Johnson)?
I think I'm like everyone. I salivate at the thought of White with LT. But we weren't winning 5 straight SBs. Would we have won 3? Maybe. 4? Unlikely.
Then there is the post 1990 period--Does having White change when Belichick becomes a HC? Does it change if/when Parcells leaves? And if it does, do we do better in the post Parcells era or are we just as screwed with LT in decline and White looking for his free agency payday?
In any case, if we had White, I bet we go with a more 4/3 bent. Marshall moves inside. Assume we have one of Howard and Dorsey and they play DT next to him. White at LDE and LT playing a similar position as he always did but definitely going forward more often and earlier in his career than he actually did. Unless we draft Swilling and have him play RDE and LT stays at LB.
Carson plays MLB and Banks is SAM. Maybe we have Pepper and maybe not. We already have Reasons so he and Harry probably play similarly to what they did but with some obvious differences. Pepper will ultimately play WILL and then shift to MLB when Harry retires. Or stay at WILL and let Reasons man the middle.
The problem becomes the secondary. Do we have Collins? If not, who do we have? Williams and who else? Patterson flamed out. We will be drafting someone but do we hit or miss? Lasker busted at safety and so did Adrian White but clearly our drafting will have changed. Do we draft other safeties that are successful?
And without Zimmerman in his head, does Young draft OL in 1985? 1986? Does this change our Elliot and Moore draft? Our Kratch and Williams draft?
Again, I'd have loved to taken a shot at this and I always have felt we left at least one SB on the table in 1985, 1988 and 1989 it is hard to do much better than 2 in 5 years (or 6 if you count 1985).
you just dont replace LT, Simms, Bavaro, banks, marshall, collins, etc
i think alot of. young haters are really people who came of age as a fan in the 1990s and expected a team like we had from 1984-1990
If Eli Manning led the Giants to an 11-3 record, got injured, was replaced by Nassib and Nassib led the Giants to a Super Bowl victory, what would the Giants do in the offseason?
A. Trade Manning
B. Trade Nassib
C. Keep them both and have a QB controversy?
Well, George Young chose C. Not that either was very young but Young kept them both and that led to mayhem.
If Eli Manning led the Giants to an 11-3 record, got injured, was replaced by Nassib and Nassib led the Giants to a Super Bowl victory, what would the Giants do in the offseason?
A. Trade Manning
B. Trade Nassib
C. Keep them both and have a QB controversy?
Well, George Young chose C. Not that either was very young but Young kept them both and that led to mayhem.
The problem with this premise is that in 1991 there was no salary cap. So it was perfectly fine for teams to keep 2 starting quality QBs on the roster and deal with the inevitable "QB controversy" and protect themselves from injury. San Francisco had 3 QBs on their roster that were actually starting quality players (2 Hall of Famers) in Montana, Young, and Steve Bono. The Vikings carried Tommy Kramer and Wade Wilson. Washington at any given time would have a few starting quality QBs on their roster (Theismann, Schroeder, Williams, Rypien, Humphries).
If that similar circumstance happened today, a team more or less would have to make a decision and trade off one of them.
Reeves actually had an easy choice when he came in. He went with Simms for a short term gain, knowing that the next year he was going to hand the job over to Brown or Graham. Thus he let Hoss go to Oakland.