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Ha ha Clinton-Dix being the pick

Andy in Boston : 4/30/2014 9:20 am
Anyone else not buying it? I don't care if he's their BPA at the time. This year this team has too many needs to take a safety in round 1. Thoughts?
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Sy  
Emlen'sGremlins : 4/30/2014 10:29 am : link
We're going to pick somebody who can keep Eli off his ass. Capiche?
I want no parts of Clinton-Dix  
sjnyfan : 4/30/2014 10:31 am : link
I don't understand the love affair with him. He's not a good tackler, especially in space which is why I don't think he's on the Giants radar. He's also rail thin and you have to worry about him holding up all season. But outside of tracking someone on a fly route he's not good in coverage either. He looks lost to me at times. How can you be the top safety in the draft and you only had 4 pass deflections for the season? That's pathetic. I've yet to see a game where I though Clinton-Dix will be a pro bowler. That's what I want with the #12 pick.

I mentioned in a post awhile ago that when I look at 1st round safeties I set the bar with Earl Thomas, someone who had skill to play both corner and safety. Someone who could tackle and cover. Someone who was a leader and could be a captain of your secondary. I wanted Thomas in the worst way that year before Seattle traded right before us to take him at #14. Since then he's gone to 3 pro bowls, has been named All-Pro 3 times and hasn't turned 25 yet. That's the kind of safety you draft at #12 and there is no safety in this class worth that.

Clinton Dix isn't among the top 5 safeties in this class to me nor was he the best safety on his team imo. We'll see what happens next week but please let him be someone else's problem.
if a safety is their highest rated player on the board at 12  
Hades07 : 4/30/2014 10:32 am : link
There is nothing on the roster to prevent that pick. The only position that they should not go BPA if it is the highest rated player is QB.

Unless of course they already plan on this being Eli's last contract with the team.
RE: Sy  
Klaatu : 4/30/2014 10:38 am : link
In comment 11646047 Emlen'sGremlins said:
Quote:
We're going to pick somebody who can keep Eli off his ass. Capiche?


And that has to be done in the 1st round because...
He's kinda like Ebron - the best safety in a poor year for safeties  
SB : 4/30/2014 10:42 am : link
I don't think he's worth the #12 pick. He has holes in his game and doesn't have the measurables to make up for it.
if that last post wasn't clear  
SB : 4/30/2014 10:44 am : link
Ha Ha is the best safety of a poor safety class, like Ebron is the best TE of a poor TE class. Just 'cause both are the best at their position, that doesn't mean they should be taken #12.
RE: RE: Sy  
Victor in CT : 4/30/2014 10:45 am : link
In comment 11646078 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 11646047 Emlen'sGremlins said:


Quote:


We're going to pick somebody who can keep Eli off his ass. Capiche?



And that has to be done in the 1st round because...


because their attempt to rebuild the line with mid-round picks over the past 5 years has been disastrous. Now they have to invest premium picks in OLs who can play right away. They have no time to develop them anymore. Pugh was a great start. They need more. Only 2/5 of the OL is a sure thing at this point. If Pugh or Schwartz get hurt they are in trouble.
#12 is too high for Clinton-Dix  
GiantJake : 4/30/2014 10:54 am : link
He's a good player, but he's been over-hyped a bit.
Fair enough.  
Klaatu : 4/30/2014 10:55 am : link
But rounds two and three are considered premium picks, too. If the Giants go defense in round one, or a skill position, they could still go O-Line on day two. Although I wouldn't be surprised if a guy like Zack Martin was the pick at 12, I think JR has done enough in free agency to give himself some leeway in round one.
No Need To Go S At 12  
pa_giant_fan : 4/30/2014 10:59 am : link
Deone Bucannon can be had in the 2nd and i think is a better player. I'm still in favor of OL at 12.
Its gonna be Mar'iiiiin  
Curtis in VA : 4/30/2014 11:05 am : link
Mar'iiiiin!

I never  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/30/2014 11:06 am : link
understood why people get wed to a position.

What makes great teams great is having great players.

Each team only has a few at most.

If we draft a guy who turns into an All Pro, does it really matter what position he plays at?
Eric, sure,  
Jim in Forest Hills : 4/30/2014 11:10 am : link
I just don't think Dix is thought of that way. Obviously no one knows, but he's not getting the can't miss pub we'd normally see for a S at the top half of rd 1.

Everyone would take Ed Reed at 12, but is he Ed Reed?
Draft Dix?  
kotar1 : 4/30/2014 11:17 am : link
If we draft Ha Ha the laugh will be on the G-Men!
He wont be BPA at 12  
djstat : 4/30/2014 11:25 am : link
Besides the whole BPA is the interpretation of the GM.
Eric et al  
Colin@gbn : 4/30/2014 11:26 am : link
Interesting question Eric? As a long-time proponent of the notion that teams (or at least the good ones) don't draft positions they draft players it has always puzzled me a tad why so many fans get so hung up on particular positions. In the end I suspect it is because the avearge fan in the street tends to ask a different question than NFL personnel people do. The average fan tends to ask the question 'how do we get better? and answers it by looking at the team and identifying the weakest position with the notion that the fastest way for the team to get better is to upgrade the weakest position. In contrast, while teams obviously want to improve weak areas, I suspect that going into a draft the more important question quality NFL teams ask themselves is 'which player gets us closest to getting to the Super Bowl!' which can be upgrading a weak area but isn't necessarily the case. The other question teams ask themselves with premium picks is 'what we can get with this pick that we aren't likely to get either in later rounds or in free agency.' And the early rounds are by far the most likely place to find impact players at impact positions. Just over a week to go.
.  
arcarsenal : 4/30/2014 11:28 am : link
I haven't done a ton of HW on the safeties in this draft but isn't Pryor considered a better prospect than Dix?
Klatu  
Emlen'sGremlins : 4/30/2014 11:34 am : link
What Has He Done For The OLine? Schwartz Is A Journey Man And Brown And Jerry Are Scrubs. Do You Recall The Last Game Of The Season When Our Franchise QB went Down With A High Ankle Sprain (Which He Still Hasn't Recovered From)? And It Was A Total Miracle That He Wasn't Hurt Sooner Behind That Garbage Line.
I don't know...  
rptl530 : 4/30/2014 11:36 am : link
but this would seem like a pick NYG can't afford to make right now.

I'm leaning heavily towards OL at both 12 and 43 and value seems to match up.

Martin & Bitonio.
RE: .  
jeff57 : 4/30/2014 11:39 am : link
In comment 11646281 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I haven't done a ton of HW on the safeties in this draft but isn't Pryor considered a better prospect than Dix?


Depends on who you ask and what type of safety you want.
RE: Klatu  
Victor in CT : 4/30/2014 11:42 am : link
In comment 11646296 Emlen'sGremlins said:
Quote:
What Has He Done For The OLine? Schwartz Is A Journey Man And Brown And Jerry Are Scrubs. Do You Recall The Last Game Of The Season When Our Franchise QB went Down With A High Ankle Sprain (Which He Still Hasn't Recovered From)? And It Was A Total Miracle That He Wasn't Hurt Sooner Behind That Garbage Line.


And the C that he signed hasn't played for 2 years
Colin et al  
RAIN : 4/30/2014 11:43 am : link
Wed to a position or not, does Dix make the plays worthy of #12?

It's not about position, its about the player. I don't think Clinton Dix can cover. I'm on my third cut up of him.. he'd decent in the box..not great in coverage at all. I prefer Eric Reid in a much weaker draft class.

Eric Reid  
jeff57 : 4/30/2014 11:46 am : link
One reason I give some credence to the pick is that I think they were poised to select Reid last year before the Niners traded up ahead of them.
When you win  
pjcas18 : 4/30/2014 11:48 am : link
two superbowls with a line that has a 2nd round pick as the highest drafted o-lineman I think you earn the benefit of the doubt from your fan base of NOT having to use first round picks in back to back years to build an o-line.

Cofield (a DT obviously) was a 4th round pick who started from day 1. David Diehl was a 5th round pick (on the OL) who started from day 1 and there are hundreds more examples from around the league.

But for some reason the BBI draft pundits feel like Reese has no choice but to use first round pick, the highest the franchise has had in a decade, on an OL?

If Reese drafts an OL great I hope he's a stalwart on the line for the next 12 years, but if not, I'm not crying the sky is falling.

pjcas18, you are right about how the 2 SB lines were built. I have  
Victor in CT : 4/30/2014 11:59 am : link
written that JR has tried the same approach, but the players he acquired weren't as good. Where Ernie A drafted Diehl in Rd 5, Snee in Rd2, signed McKenzie and OHara as FAs and got Suebert as a UDFA, Reese drafted Beatty in Rd2, Mosely, McCants and Brewer in Rds 4-6 and signed Baas as his biggest FA. Of that group, only Beatty has a chance to work out, and a slim one at that. Ernie's acquisitions look a helluva a lot better. That is why JR has to use high picks now.
Colin  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/30/2014 12:02 pm : link
When we drafted Charles Way, my reaction, why the hell did we draft a fullback? We have a good young fullback.

Well, Way became the best FB in the NFL and arguably the best player on a pretty talent-starved team.


What if the Giants think a safety has a chance to be the next Ronnie Lott or Ed Reed? (I know that's not realistic, but you get my point).
Victor  
pjcas18 : 4/30/2014 12:06 pm : link
you forgot about Pugh.

and you don't know if these guys have worked out or not.

I hate harping on the example, but McCants stunk here for whatever reason, he goes to Oakland and he suddenly learned how to play? He's not an all-pro, but he was a capable starter.

The OL doesn't need 5 all-pro's, they need to simply be competent. until a time presents itself when the best interest of the team is upgrading those players.

Like I said, if Reese drafts Martin or Lewan at 12, great, my only point is he doesn't have to.

If he drafts Ebron or Evans at 12, and then in the 2nd gets Yankey or cyrus kouandjio (or plug in whoever) I'll be fine with that too. If the Giants draft Donald at 12 and cyrus kouandjio in the 2nd great - I'd be happy.

RE: When you win  
ImaGiant86 : 4/30/2014 12:10 pm : link
In comment 11646349 pjcas18 said:
Quote:

But for some reason the BBI draft pundits feel like Reese has no choice but to use first round pick, the highest the franchise has had in a decade, on an OL?



Agree with this 100%.

We all expect not to pick this high for at least the rest of the Eli era; BPA all the way.
Eric et al  
Colin@gbn : 4/30/2014 12:24 pm : link
Eric: I think we agree pretty much 100%. My point would be if the Giants think Clinton-Dix is a potentially special talent with ball-hawking ability then he has a chance to be the pick. However I would be very surprised if even started to look at him simply because they felt they might have an issue at the position in 2015! Certainly what we hear is that a lot of teams like and more than one team ahead of the Giants at least has him on their short list. One of the other questions that NFL teams ask themselves is 'what do we get if this guy plays to his physical potential' and in the case of HHCD the answer is you get a good solid steady NFL starter, but personally I don't see anything particularly special there, but time (or at least 8 days will tell.)
There is NO WAY Giants draft Dix  
ZogZerg : 4/30/2014 12:28 pm : link
The Giants don't rank players 1,2, 3,..... - they put them in tiers. Whatever tier Hix may be in, will also have a WR, OT, TE or DT in it.

I will bet that that it will be one of those positions drafted in the first round.
RE: Victor  
Victor in CT : 4/30/2014 12:37 pm : link
In comment 11646402 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
you forgot about Pugh.

and you don't know if these guys have worked out or not.

I hate harping on the example, but McCants stunk here for whatever reason, he goes to Oakland and he suddenly learned how to play? He's not an all-pro, but he was a capable starter.

Mentioned Pugh in the 10:45 that you replied to as a great start.



The OL doesn't need 5 all-pro's, they need to simply be competent. until a time presents itself when the best interest of the team is upgrading those players.

Like I said, if Reese drafts Martin or Lewan at 12, great, my only point is he doesn't have to.

If he drafts Ebron or Evans at 12, and then in the 2nd gets Yankey or cyrus kouandjio (or plug in whoever) I'll be fine with that too. If the Giants draft Donald at 12 and cyrus kouandjio in the 2nd great - I'd be happy.


I agree with you that in this draft the OL depth is there in Rd 2 and 3 after reading Sy's analysis. But I think if they are faced with 2 guys of equal ranking in Rd 1 they should opt for the OL.
and I mentioned Pugh as a great start in  
Victor in CT : 4/30/2014 12:39 pm : link
the 10:45 post that you replied to.
They may just do that Victor  
pjcas18 : 4/30/2014 12:42 pm : link
if two guys are equally ranked then you might be right, they view OL as the priority and will pick that way.

I have no issue with that.

My only issue is if the Giants have Evans or Ebron or Donald, or whoever (not an OL) as their highest rated players - all at positions of need, they should take them and not settle for the best available OL.

That's it.
RE: kmed  
BigBlueShock : 4/30/2014 12:48 pm : link
In comment 11645958 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
I think Brown is a very good player, very good. But he isn't a guy I am basing first round draft decisions around. Add the fact that Hill and Rolle could very well be gone after 2014....Clinton Dix or Pryor would be good selections at 12.

Sy, you said in your earlier post that Brown is overrated by the fans. That is what kmed asked you about. You then go on to say that he is very good (twice). How freakin good do you think the fans think he is? Again, if he is very good, as are your words, how's he overrated by the fans?
Safety is not a crazy idea anymore  
Giants2012 : 4/30/2014 12:53 pm : link
If the Giants don't go safety in Round 1, IMO, the cornerback out of Missouri named Gaines looks like the type who could convert to safety.

I think Brown  
pjcas18 : 4/30/2014 12:53 pm : link
is a little bit overrated because of the picks. he was never intended to start, but because of KP's injuries he was forced into the lineup and wound up with a ton of picks.

I'm not sure that's sustainable and he's not great in run support (comparatively speaking to Will Hill or Kenny Phillips). Giants safeties don't have traditional SS/FS roles in Fewell's D (as I understand it).

so as a 3rd safety I like Brown, especially in dime coverage, as an opening day starter, I like him a lot less than some.
Clinton Dix  
RAIN : 4/30/2014 1:15 pm : link
is not special. I have convictions. Yes, the Giants have a scouting staff and access to coaches tape.. so I would find a way to like the pick. From what I've seen, now three games into it.. nothing special. This is not Chancellor or Thomas or Eric Reid for that matter.

RE: Klatu  
Klaatu : 4/30/2014 1:24 pm : link
In comment 11646296 Emlen'sGremlins said:
Quote:
What Has He Done For The OLine? Schwartz Is A Journey Man And Brown And Jerry Are Scrubs. Do You Recall The Last Game Of The Season When Our Franchise QB went Down With A High Ankle Sprain (Which He Still Hasn't Recovered From)? And It Was A Total Miracle That He Wasn't Hurt Sooner Behind That Garbage Line.


And That Still Doesn't Answer My Question, Which Was Why The O-Line Has To Be Addressed In The First Round? If You Can Get A Top-Tier Defender There, You Still Have Two More Premium Picks (Plus Four More Not-So-Premium Ones) To Spend On The O-Line.
NFW will he even be in the mix  
Some Fan : 4/30/2014 1:35 pm : link
and the twitter discussion reads like if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.
Or we could get a Top-Tier O-lineman in the first round  
Jimmy Googs : 4/30/2014 1:36 pm : link
and spend the other two so-called premium picks on Defense.

The possibilities are mind-blowing...
Could this be some ploy  
spu : 4/30/2014 1:41 pm : link
Apparently the Ravens are in need of saftey this year and have an extra third round pick. I could see them offering us a third round pick (non-comp one)to move down to 12. We would still get a very good player at 17 and the extra 3rd would go along way to rebuilding the team.
It would be another really dumb pick  
Red Dog : 4/30/2014 1:42 pm : link
unless he turns out to be the next coming of Ronnie Lott or Ed Reed, which is pretty unlikely.

There are plenty of other high quality guys who will be available and would help more than Dix, a somewhat over-rated Safety.

How many DBs can they possibly carry anyway? How many Safeties can they play at one time? Does Fewell have a new 6 Safety alignment ready to unveil? DB is probably the strongest unit overall on the team right now, and Rolle isn't going anywhere until he can't play any more.

Fix the OL. Strengthen the DL. Get Eli another receiving weapon at WR or TE. Or trade down to add picks. There will be lots of choices that would be preferable to another DB.
RE: Or we could get a Top-Tier O-lineman in the first round  
Klaatu : 4/30/2014 1:43 pm : link
In comment 11646627 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
and spend the other two so-called premium picks on Defense.

The possibilities are mind-blowing...


Damn Right. We Could Get A Top-Tier Skill Player, Too, And Then Upgrade The O-Line. We'll Just Have To See How Things Shake Out.
Well, they all have skills...  
Jimmy Googs : 4/30/2014 1:51 pm : link
i would hope.
I don't see it  
beatrixkiddo : 4/30/2014 1:57 pm : link
and I also think Pryor will be the better player of the top safeties. Hell I'd prefer Bucannon later on over Dix in the first.
Dix is the pick?  
GiantSince1970 : 4/30/2014 7:00 pm : link
Your lists of top players we can draft #12 are interesting in that 1) We don't need corners so drop off Gilbert/Dennard, 2) Ebron doesn't block so he's not worth a #12 pick, Barr has potential but is a better fit for the 3-4 and will struggle against the run as a 4-3 DE, and Shazier and some of these other will be lucky to get picked in round 1 at all.
Martin?  
GiantSince1970 : 4/30/2014 7:03 pm : link
How do these guys all move up everyone's boards with no workouts, games, Combine activity to make them move? It's ridiculous. Martin will not go in the top 10. Period. I like him, but he is a 15-20 pick in this draft. It would not be the worst thing in the world to take him at 12 given Evans could bust.
nflsideline.com  
GiantSince1970 : 4/30/2014 7:05 pm : link
There is a site called nflsideline.com that has a couple of guys with sensible mocks. Check it out.
So Martin's draft value per your views...  
Jimmy Googs : 4/30/2014 7:26 pm : link
He should never even be considered at 10

He is not the worst thing in the world at 12

He is fine at 15.


Do I have this piece of genius correct?







normally I don't wed to a position  
JoeCabbie : 4/30/2014 8:41 pm : link
but this year is different. The oline was terrible last year, and I have no faith in 3 of the five positions. Eli is the key. He makes so much money, to not support him is flushing it down the toilet. We live or die with Eli so he has to be protected. I'd draft oline in the first three rounds if I had players I liked. This draft if the grades are the same we have to take the olineman.
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