(I guess) make the case that Rolle is on his way out and Hill is done so a potential need with be there. If his grade is through the roof, I think you have to seriously consider it.
I agree. We may not re-sign Rolle. Hill could be on his way out, and Brown signed a 1 year deal I believe. So we could easily draft Ha Ha and move him in.
Of course that's the draft philosophy - and that will be the thinking if they do draft him - but you could make that analysis/argument at 4 other critical positions on the team.
Art Stapletonþ@art_stapleton·49 secs
If OL they like isn't there + Ha Ha is ranked higher on their board than Ebron, could see it
Pete Damilatisþ@PFF_Pete
JR drafts a year ahead, and Cooper Taylor is the only S under contract past 2014. HHCD makes sense at 12.
Art Stapletonþ@art_stapleton·6 mins
Would not be shocked if Ha Ha is on #NYG board, not when you assess S position beyond 2014
Pete Damilatisþ@PFF_Pete·10 mins
I can't see Ha Ha Clinton-Dix falling past the Giants-Rams-Bears gauntlet at picks 12-14.
Pete Damilatisþ@PFF_Pete·4 mins
Giants have bigger immediate needs than S, but Jerry Reese always drafts for next yr. If Evans & Donald are gone, HHCD fits
Q-I can't imagine Ha Ha being BPA ahead of Matthews, Lewan, Donald, or Martin?"
Art Stapletonþ@art_stapleton·4 mins
All could be gone by 12
on the need list with Will Hill's situation, I'd love them drafting Calvin Pryor at 12. If Pryor is gone I think I'd move to the next position on the need list.
will we get Kenny Phillips (prior to his injuries) or get Shaun Williams (never lived up to the expectation)? I think #12 is a bit too high to go for a safety position when the players available aren't impact players (at least from what I've seen and read).
or is he mark barron? I don't care to draft mark barron at 12
That's a great question and I need to trust that the Giants have that answer. I know that nobody here can possibly have that answer.
My point was that, let's assume that's how the Giants view the best players on the board at the time....If so, can you not understand taking the safety despite it not being a position of need for us?
NYG uses so many three-safety packages, Will Hill is an unknown because of the drug issues, and Brown is coming off a serious injury on top of being overrated by fans of the team. Rolle may be gone at the end of the year.
There is as much instability at the position as anywhere on the roster and safety is not a spot where you want to be weak.
I understand that he's been the beneficiary of some bad throws, but he's proven to be a playmaker. I don't see anyone on bbi touting him as some great safety, but he's certainly a starting caliber safety when healthy. Not to mention, the Giants seem to want him back as they've made it a point to sign him each of the past 2 seasons.
but from what I saw I wasn't thrilled with his run defense.
One thing I love about Will Hill is his downhill attacking style, his wraps guys up and drives them to the turf. Dix seems to go for big hits when he can but it's more like Asante Samuel going for a big hit rather than a true thumper.
I prefer Calvin Pryor. He's a much better run defender and open field tackler. He also has the ability to be a cover safety. Though, if you're looking for a center fielder, at this point Clinton-Dix is the better player in that respect.
because we never have enough good LB's. Has that changed?
It did last year once Beason became acclimated.
Look at Mundy's snap count once Beason was entrenched as a starter. This did coincide with Will Hill returning (a couple games later), but the point is they had three healthy active safeties, only one of them saw far less snaps.
Not sure if that's because of Beason or Mundy. I like to think Beason.
I'd rather see that than Ebron or Evans. They could use a good Â
safety for next year for sure. And possibly this year if Hill is really gone. Brown has to be a ? at this point health-wise, and he really isn't an every down Safety, more of a situational ball hawk type.
I think Brown is a very good player, very good. But he isn't a guy I am basing first round draft decisions around. Add the fact that Hill and Rolle could very well be gone after 2014....Clinton Dix or Pryor would be good selections at 12.
Of course that's the draft philosophy - and that will be the thinking if they do draft him - but you could make that analysis/argument at 4 other critical positions on the team.
I just disagree that you don't necessarily hyper-focus on the positions you reference at 12 because I'd rather have #12 value if BPA is far and above any positions of need.
Later on the value of players becomes closer together and you can focus on need more.
I think Brown is a very good player, very good. But he isn't a guy I am basing first round draft decisions around. Add the fact that Hill and Rolle could very well be gone after 2014....Clinton Dix or Pryor would be good selections at 12.
Fair enough. Can't disagree at all. I'd have liked them to extend Rolle at this point, but it's quite possible that they can't(Rolle won't or is asking for too much).
there is a ton of pressure on Reese and Coughlin this year.
This offense is in dire need of an influx of talent....TE,WR,OL and RB. A safety doesn't make sense to me this early in the draft. An Aaron Donald pick is different....he is an "impact" player. If they go Defense, it has to be a dlineman.
No Ha-Ha's at 12 this year. The offensive line was a complete and total abomination last year. Therefore, Reese will do what he is told this year.
I think this is probably true, but wouldn't be stunned if Dix is the pick. As others have said, this is probably the last year for Rolle, Hill is likely gone right now, Brown is less than a year removed from an ACL tear, and Taylor is unproven. Dix is the highest rated safety by most, so his selection could be viewed as a confluence of value and need. He also has good range and cover ability, which is important in a division with TEs like Witten, etc.
I understand that he's been the beneficiary of some bad throws, but he's proven to be a playmaker. I don't see anyone on bbi touting him as some great safety, but he's certainly a starting caliber safety when healthy. Not to mention, the Giants seem to want him back as they've made it a point to sign him each of the past 2 seasons.
On two of interceptions he was basically standing in the right. I think he even joked about standing around while Rolle forced a turnover.
by signing the players he did gave himself the freedom to draft either side of the ball.
Basically he added a LG and a C, and tackle depth if Beatty can't be fixed.
Forcing an OL pick really limits the options.
So yeah the team needs a WR and TE, but those don't have to come in the first round, plus they added some insurance at WR for Cruz, Randle, Jernigan with Manningham.
Reese has given himself flexibility. And that's what you look for when drafting.
The Giants can draft a S if they feel the player there represents the most value given the priority if team needs.
But I think Pryor fits in more with that the Giants like to do. Dix is strictly a center fielder. Which is not in itself bad. Plus Rolle is getting up there, Brown is coming off a bad injury, and Demps is more of a backup.
I think Mr. Mara was also referring to the cupboard being bare.... Â
I don't understand the love affair with him. He's not a good tackler, especially in space which is why I don't think he's on the Giants radar. He's also rail thin and you have to worry about him holding up all season. But outside of tracking someone on a fly route he's not good in coverage either. He looks lost to me at times. How can you be the top safety in the draft and you only had 4 pass deflections for the season? That's pathetic. I've yet to see a game where I though Clinton-Dix will be a pro bowler. That's what I want with the #12 pick.
I mentioned in a post awhile ago that when I look at 1st round safeties I set the bar with Earl Thomas, someone who had skill to play both corner and safety. Someone who could tackle and cover. Someone who was a leader and could be a captain of your secondary. I wanted Thomas in the worst way that year before Seattle traded right before us to take him at #14. Since then he's gone to 3 pro bowls, has been named All-Pro 3 times and hasn't turned 25 yet. That's the kind of safety you draft at #12 and there is no safety in this class worth that.
Clinton Dix isn't among the top 5 safeties in this class to me nor was he the best safety on his team imo. We'll see what happens next week but please let him be someone else's problem.
if a safety is their highest rated player on the board at 12 Â
Ha Ha is the best safety of a poor safety class, like Ebron is the best TE of a poor TE class. Just 'cause both are the best at their position, that doesn't mean they should be taken #12.
We're going to pick somebody who can keep Eli off his ass. Capiche?
And that has to be done in the 1st round because...
because their attempt to rebuild the line with mid-round picks over the past 5 years has been disastrous. Now they have to invest premium picks in OLs who can play right away. They have no time to develop them anymore. Pugh was a great start. They need more. Only 2/5 of the OL is a sure thing at this point. If Pugh or Schwartz get hurt they are in trouble.
But rounds two and three are considered premium picks, too. If the Giants go defense in round one, or a skill position, they could still go O-Line on day two. Although I wouldn't be surprised if a guy like Zack Martin was the pick at 12, I think JR has done enough in free agency to give himself some leeway in round one.
If OL they like isn't there + Ha Ha is ranked higher on their board than Ebron, could see it
Pete Damilatisþ@PFF_Pete
JR drafts a year ahead, and Cooper Taylor is the only S under contract past 2014. HHCD makes sense at 12.
Art Stapletonþ@art_stapleton·6 mins
Would not be shocked if Ha Ha is on #NYG board, not when you assess S position beyond 2014
Pete Damilatisþ@PFF_Pete·10 mins
I can't see Ha Ha Clinton-Dix falling past the Giants-Rams-Bears gauntlet at picks 12-14.
Pete Damilatisþ@PFF_Pete·4 mins
Giants have bigger immediate needs than S, but Jerry Reese always drafts for next yr. If Evans & Donald are gone, HHCD fits
Q-I can't imagine Ha Ha being BPA ahead of Matthews, Lewan, Donald, or Martin?"
Art Stapletonþ@art_stapleton·4 mins
All could be gone by 12
Troy Palamalu, Justin Pugh, Jordy Nelson, Jeremy Shockey, Linval Joseph.
Are you not taking Ed Reed just because you have other needs a little higher?
That's a great question and I need to trust that the Giants have that answer. I know that nobody here can possibly have that answer.
My point was that, let's assume that's how the Giants view the best players on the board at the time....If so, can you not understand taking the safety despite it not being a position of need for us?
-chris r
The BPAs that will be available at 12 will ALSO fill a big need, specifically OL, DL and WR
That being said, Dix is a daunting defender but I don't see the Giants taking him over the other guys that will likely be there. We'll see.
There is as much instability at the position as anywhere on the roster and safety is not a spot where you want to be weak.
One thing I love about Will Hill is his downhill attacking style, his wraps guys up and drives them to the turf. Dix seems to go for big hits when he can but it's more like Asante Samuel going for a big hit rather than a true thumper.
I prefer Calvin Pryor. He's a much better run defender and open field tackler. He also has the ability to be a cover safety. Though, if you're looking for a center fielder, at this point Clinton-Dix is the better player in that respect.
It did last year once Beason became acclimated.
Look at Mundy's snap count once Beason was entrenched as a starter. This did coincide with Will Hill returning (a couple games later), but the point is they had three healthy active safeties, only one of them saw far less snaps.
Not sure if that's because of Beason or Mundy. I like to think Beason.
Later on the value of players becomes closer together and you can focus on need more.
Fair enough. Can't disagree at all. I'd have liked them to extend Rolle at this point, but it's quite possible that they can't(Rolle won't or is asking for too much).
there is a ton of pressure on Reese and Coughlin this year.
This offense is in dire need of an influx of talent....TE,WR,OL and RB. A safety doesn't make sense to me this early in the draft. An Aaron Donald pick is different....he is an "impact" player. If they go Defense, it has to be a dlineman.
I think this is probably true, but wouldn't be stunned if Dix is the pick. As others have said, this is probably the last year for Rolle, Hill is likely gone right now, Brown is less than a year removed from an ACL tear, and Taylor is unproven. Dix is the highest rated safety by most, so his selection could be viewed as a confluence of value and need. He also has good range and cover ability, which is important in a division with TEs like Witten, etc.
On two of interceptions he was basically standing in the right. I think he even joked about standing around while Rolle forced a turnover.
Basically he added a LG and a C, and tackle depth if Beatty can't be fixed.
Forcing an OL pick really limits the options.
So yeah the team needs a WR and TE, but those don't have to come in the first round, plus they added some insurance at WR for Cruz, Randle, Jernigan with Manningham.
Reese has given himself flexibility. And that's what you look for when drafting.
The Giants can draft a S if they feel the player there represents the most value given the priority if team needs.
I think Mara was mainly referring to deeply departed OC, TE coach and RB coach.
I mentioned in a post awhile ago that when I look at 1st round safeties I set the bar with Earl Thomas, someone who had skill to play both corner and safety. Someone who could tackle and cover. Someone who was a leader and could be a captain of your secondary. I wanted Thomas in the worst way that year before Seattle traded right before us to take him at #14. Since then he's gone to 3 pro bowls, has been named All-Pro 3 times and hasn't turned 25 yet. That's the kind of safety you draft at #12 and there is no safety in this class worth that.
Clinton Dix isn't among the top 5 safeties in this class to me nor was he the best safety on his team imo. We'll see what happens next week but please let him be someone else's problem.
Unless of course they already plan on this being Eli's last contract with the team.
And that has to be done in the 1st round because...
Quote:
We're going to pick somebody who can keep Eli off his ass. Capiche?
And that has to be done in the 1st round because...
because their attempt to rebuild the line with mid-round picks over the past 5 years has been disastrous. Now they have to invest premium picks in OLs who can play right away. They have no time to develop them anymore. Pugh was a great start. They need more. Only 2/5 of the OL is a sure thing at this point. If Pugh or Schwartz get hurt they are in trouble.