I just don't think Dix is thought of that way. Obviously no one knows, but he's not getting the can't miss pub we'd normally see for a S at the top half of rd 1.
Everyone would take Ed Reed at 12, but is he Ed Reed?
Interesting question Eric? As a long-time proponent of the notion that teams (or at least the good ones) don't draft positions they draft players it has always puzzled me a tad why so many fans get so hung up on particular positions. In the end I suspect it is because the avearge fan in the street tends to ask a different question than NFL personnel people do. The average fan tends to ask the question 'how do we get better? and answers it by looking at the team and identifying the weakest position with the notion that the fastest way for the team to get better is to upgrade the weakest position. In contrast, while teams obviously want to improve weak areas, I suspect that going into a draft the more important question quality NFL teams ask themselves is 'which player gets us closest to getting to the Super Bowl!' which can be upgrading a weak area but isn't necessarily the case. The other question teams ask themselves with premium picks is 'what we can get with this pick that we aren't likely to get either in later rounds or in free agency.' And the early rounds are by far the most likely place to find impact players at impact positions. Just over a week to go.
What Has He Done For The OLine? Schwartz Is A Journey Man And Brown And Jerry Are Scrubs. Do You Recall The Last Game Of The Season When Our Franchise QB went Down With A High Ankle Sprain (Which He Still Hasn't Recovered From)? And It Was A Total Miracle That He Wasn't Hurt Sooner Behind That Garbage Line.
What Has He Done For The OLine? Schwartz Is A Journey Man And Brown And Jerry Are Scrubs. Do You Recall The Last Game Of The Season When Our Franchise QB went Down With A High Ankle Sprain (Which He Still Hasn't Recovered From)? And It Was A Total Miracle That He Wasn't Hurt Sooner Behind That Garbage Line.
And the C that he signed hasn't played for 2 years
Wed to a position or not, does Dix make the plays worthy of #12?
It's not about position, its about the player. I don't think Clinton Dix can cover. I'm on my third cut up of him.. he'd decent in the box..not great in coverage at all. I prefer Eric Reid in a much weaker draft class.
two superbowls with a line that has a 2nd round pick as the highest drafted o-lineman I think you earn the benefit of the doubt from your fan base of NOT having to use first round picks in back to back years to build an o-line.
Cofield (a DT obviously) was a 4th round pick who started from day 1. David Diehl was a 5th round pick (on the OL) who started from day 1 and there are hundreds more examples from around the league.
But for some reason the BBI draft pundits feel like Reese has no choice but to use first round pick, the highest the franchise has had in a decade, on an OL?
If Reese drafts an OL great I hope he's a stalwart on the line for the next 12 years, but if not, I'm not crying the sky is falling.
pjcas18, you are right about how the 2 SB lines were built. I have
written that JR has tried the same approach, but the players he acquired weren't as good. Where Ernie A drafted Diehl in Rd 5, Snee in Rd2, signed McKenzie and OHara as FAs and got Suebert as a UDFA, Reese drafted Beatty in Rd2, Mosely, McCants and Brewer in Rds 4-6 and signed Baas as his biggest FA. Of that group, only Beatty has a chance to work out, and a slim one at that. Ernie's acquisitions look a helluva a lot better. That is why JR has to use high picks now.
and you don't know if these guys have worked out or not.
I hate harping on the example, but McCants stunk here for whatever reason, he goes to Oakland and he suddenly learned how to play? He's not an all-pro, but he was a capable starter.
The OL doesn't need 5 all-pro's, they need to simply be competent. until a time presents itself when the best interest of the team is upgrading those players.
Like I said, if Reese drafts Martin or Lewan at 12, great, my only point is he doesn't have to.
If he drafts Ebron or Evans at 12, and then in the 2nd gets Yankey or cyrus kouandjio (or plug in whoever) I'll be fine with that too. If the Giants draft Donald at 12 and cyrus kouandjio in the 2nd great - I'd be happy.
But for some reason the BBI draft pundits feel like Reese has no choice but to use first round pick, the highest the franchise has had in a decade, on an OL?
Agree with this 100%.
We all expect not to pick this high for at least the rest of the Eli era; BPA all the way.
Eric: I think we agree pretty much 100%. My point would be if the Giants think Clinton-Dix is a potentially special talent with ball-hawking ability then he has a chance to be the pick. However I would be very surprised if even started to look at him simply because they felt they might have an issue at the position in 2015! Certainly what we hear is that a lot of teams like and more than one team ahead of the Giants at least has him on their short list. One of the other questions that NFL teams ask themselves is 'what do we get if this guy plays to his physical potential' and in the case of HHCD the answer is you get a good solid steady NFL starter, but personally I don't see anything particularly special there, but time (or at least 8 days will tell.)
and you don't know if these guys have worked out or not.
I hate harping on the example, but McCants stunk here for whatever reason, he goes to Oakland and he suddenly learned how to play? He's not an all-pro, but he was a capable starter.
Mentioned Pugh in the 10:45 that you replied to as a great start.
The OL doesn't need 5 all-pro's, they need to simply be competent. until a time presents itself when the best interest of the team is upgrading those players.
Like I said, if Reese drafts Martin or Lewan at 12, great, my only point is he doesn't have to.
If he drafts Ebron or Evans at 12, and then in the 2nd gets Yankey or cyrus kouandjio (or plug in whoever) I'll be fine with that too. If the Giants draft Donald at 12 and cyrus kouandjio in the 2nd great - I'd be happy.
I agree with you that in this draft the OL depth is there in Rd 2 and 3 after reading Sy's analysis. But I think if they are faced with 2 guys of equal ranking in Rd 1 they should opt for the OL.
if two guys are equally ranked then you might be right, they view OL as the priority and will pick that way.
I have no issue with that.
My only issue is if the Giants have Evans or Ebron or Donald, or whoever (not an OL) as their highest rated players - all at positions of need, they should take them and not settle for the best available OL.
I think Brown is a very good player, very good. But he isn't a guy I am basing first round draft decisions around. Add the fact that Hill and Rolle could very well be gone after 2014....Clinton Dix or Pryor would be good selections at 12.
Sy, you said in your earlier post that Brown is overrated by the fans. That is what kmed asked you about. You then go on to say that he is very good (twice). How freakin good do you think the fans think he is? Again, if he is very good, as are your words, how's he overrated by the fans?
is a little bit overrated because of the picks. he was never intended to start, but because of KP's injuries he was forced into the lineup and wound up with a ton of picks.
I'm not sure that's sustainable and he's not great in run support (comparatively speaking to Will Hill or Kenny Phillips). Giants safeties don't have traditional SS/FS roles in Fewell's D (as I understand it).
so as a 3rd safety I like Brown, especially in dime coverage, as an opening day starter, I like him a lot less than some.
is not special. I have convictions. Yes, the Giants have a scouting staff and access to coaches tape.. so I would find a way to like the pick. From what I've seen, now three games into it.. nothing special. This is not Chancellor or Thomas or Eric Reid for that matter.
What Has He Done For The OLine? Schwartz Is A Journey Man And Brown And Jerry Are Scrubs. Do You Recall The Last Game Of The Season When Our Franchise QB went Down With A High Ankle Sprain (Which He Still Hasn't Recovered From)? And It Was A Total Miracle That He Wasn't Hurt Sooner Behind That Garbage Line.
And That Still Doesn't Answer My Question, Which Was Why The O-Line Has To Be Addressed In The First Round? If You Can Get A Top-Tier Defender There, You Still Have Two More Premium Picks (Plus Four More Not-So-Premium Ones) To Spend On The O-Line.
Apparently the Ravens are in need of saftey this year and have an extra third round pick. I could see them offering us a third round pick (non-comp one)to move down to 12. We would still get a very good player at 17 and the extra 3rd would go along way to rebuilding the team.
unless he turns out to be the next coming of Ronnie Lott or Ed Reed, which is pretty unlikely.
There are plenty of other high quality guys who will be available and would help more than Dix, a somewhat over-rated Safety.
How many DBs can they possibly carry anyway? How many Safeties can they play at one time? Does Fewell have a new 6 Safety alignment ready to unveil? DB is probably the strongest unit overall on the team right now, and Rolle isn't going anywhere until he can't play any more.
Fix the OL. Strengthen the DL. Get Eli another receiving weapon at WR or TE. Or trade down to add picks. There will be lots of choices that would be preferable to another DB.
RE: Or we could get a Top-Tier O-lineman in the first round
Your lists of top players we can draft #12 are interesting in that 1) We don't need corners so drop off Gilbert/Dennard, 2) Ebron doesn't block so he's not worth a #12 pick, Barr has potential but is a better fit for the 3-4 and will struggle against the run as a 4-3 DE, and Shazier and some of these other will be lucky to get picked in round 1 at all.
How do these guys all move up everyone's boards with no workouts, games, Combine activity to make them move? It's ridiculous. Martin will not go in the top 10. Period. I like him, but he is a 15-20 pick in this draft. It would not be the worst thing in the world to take him at 12 given Evans could bust.
but this year is different. The oline was terrible last year, and I have no faith in 3 of the five positions. Eli is the key. He makes so much money, to not support him is flushing it down the toilet. We live or die with Eli so he has to be protected. I'd draft oline in the first three rounds if I had players I liked. This draft if the grades are the same we have to take the olineman.
What makes great teams great is having great players.
Each team only has a few at most.
If we draft a guy who turns into an All Pro, does it really matter what position he plays at?
Everyone would take Ed Reed at 12, but is he Ed Reed?
I'm leaning heavily towards OL at both 12 and 43 and value seems to match up.
Martin & Bitonio.
Depends on who you ask and what type of safety you want.
And the C that he signed hasn't played for 2 years
It's not about position, its about the player. I don't think Clinton Dix can cover. I'm on my third cut up of him.. he'd decent in the box..not great in coverage at all. I prefer Eric Reid in a much weaker draft class.
Cofield (a DT obviously) was a 4th round pick who started from day 1. David Diehl was a 5th round pick (on the OL) who started from day 1 and there are hundreds more examples from around the league.
But for some reason the BBI draft pundits feel like Reese has no choice but to use first round pick, the highest the franchise has had in a decade, on an OL?
If Reese drafts an OL great I hope he's a stalwart on the line for the next 12 years, but if not, I'm not crying the sky is falling.
Well, Way became the best FB in the NFL and arguably the best player on a pretty talent-starved team.
What if the Giants think a safety has a chance to be the next Ronnie Lott or Ed Reed? (I know that's not realistic, but you get my point).
and you don't know if these guys have worked out or not.
I hate harping on the example, but McCants stunk here for whatever reason, he goes to Oakland and he suddenly learned how to play? He's not an all-pro, but he was a capable starter.
The OL doesn't need 5 all-pro's, they need to simply be competent. until a time presents itself when the best interest of the team is upgrading those players.
Like I said, if Reese drafts Martin or Lewan at 12, great, my only point is he doesn't have to.
If he drafts Ebron or Evans at 12, and then in the 2nd gets Yankey or cyrus kouandjio (or plug in whoever) I'll be fine with that too. If the Giants draft Donald at 12 and cyrus kouandjio in the 2nd great - I'd be happy.
But for some reason the BBI draft pundits feel like Reese has no choice but to use first round pick, the highest the franchise has had in a decade, on an OL?
Agree with this 100%.
We all expect not to pick this high for at least the rest of the Eli era; BPA all the way.
I will bet that that it will be one of those positions drafted in the first round.
and you don't know if these guys have worked out or not.
I hate harping on the example, but McCants stunk here for whatever reason, he goes to Oakland and he suddenly learned how to play? He's not an all-pro, but he was a capable starter.
Mentioned Pugh in the 10:45 that you replied to as a great start.
The OL doesn't need 5 all-pro's, they need to simply be competent. until a time presents itself when the best interest of the team is upgrading those players.
Like I said, if Reese drafts Martin or Lewan at 12, great, my only point is he doesn't have to.
If he drafts Ebron or Evans at 12, and then in the 2nd gets Yankey or cyrus kouandjio (or plug in whoever) I'll be fine with that too. If the Giants draft Donald at 12 and cyrus kouandjio in the 2nd great - I'd be happy.
I agree with you that in this draft the OL depth is there in Rd 2 and 3 after reading Sy's analysis. But I think if they are faced with 2 guys of equal ranking in Rd 1 they should opt for the OL.
I have no issue with that.
My only issue is if the Giants have Evans or Ebron or Donald, or whoever (not an OL) as their highest rated players - all at positions of need, they should take them and not settle for the best available OL.
That's it.
Sy, you said in your earlier post that Brown is overrated by the fans. That is what kmed asked you about. You then go on to say that he is very good (twice). How freakin good do you think the fans think he is? Again, if he is very good, as are your words, how's he overrated by the fans?
I'm not sure that's sustainable and he's not great in run support (comparatively speaking to Will Hill or Kenny Phillips). Giants safeties don't have traditional SS/FS roles in Fewell's D (as I understand it).
so as a 3rd safety I like Brown, especially in dime coverage, as an opening day starter, I like him a lot less than some.
And That Still Doesn't Answer My Question, Which Was Why The O-Line Has To Be Addressed In The First Round? If You Can Get A Top-Tier Defender There, You Still Have Two More Premium Picks (Plus Four More Not-So-Premium Ones) To Spend On The O-Line.
The possibilities are mind-blowing...
There are plenty of other high quality guys who will be available and would help more than Dix, a somewhat over-rated Safety.
How many DBs can they possibly carry anyway? How many Safeties can they play at one time? Does Fewell have a new 6 Safety alignment ready to unveil? DB is probably the strongest unit overall on the team right now, and Rolle isn't going anywhere until he can't play any more.
Fix the OL. Strengthen the DL. Get Eli another receiving weapon at WR or TE. Or trade down to add picks. There will be lots of choices that would be preferable to another DB.
The possibilities are mind-blowing...
Damn Right. We Could Get A Top-Tier Skill Player, Too, And Then Upgrade The O-Line. We'll Just Have To See How Things Shake Out.
He is not the worst thing in the world at 12
He is fine at 15.
Do I have this piece of genius correct?