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I love Zack Martin but not at 12

Lowell.. : 5/5/2014 11:00 am
ZM is an extremely safe bet, imo. Watching him in the Senior Bowl I was impressed with his excellent technique and dominance at both left tackle and left guard. He appears to be a plug and play prospect with real pro bowl possibilities.

Still, I wouldn't pick him at 12. He doesn't represent great value there and may actually be overvalued there given the exceptional overall depth of the draft. The 12 spot is likely to be coveted by teams looking to trade up. Ozzie Newsome said he's already received numerous calls regarding the 17th pick so it's reasonable to think the 12 pick is in high demand.

By trading down to the last third of round one the Giants could use the first three picks and end up with:

1) A talented wide receiver who can stretch the field. Virtually any receiver at this point is going to be outstanding value compared to receiver classes of prior years owing to the once in a lifetime depth of this receiver class. Take your pick of 8-10 guys at the end of round one or top to middle of round two.

2.A good receiving tight end like Amaro or ASF or a more complete one like Niklas.

3. A good lineman: Bitonio, Moses, J.James, Sua-Filo, maybe Cyrus K.

By trading down from 12 and using the extra pick, we could fill three needs with quality prospects. I'm assuming that JR will hold out for a deal he can't refuse that will give him an extra second rounder without dropping too far in the first round. Btw, the trade value charts circulated on the Internet are besides the point when someone wants to trade up badly enough.

I would apply this strategy to other possibilities like Donald, Barr and Lewan that might be available at 12. However, if by chance, Watkins, J. Matthews, or Evans were there at 12, it might be better to take one of them.

Thoughts?
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I don't think its fair to assume  
UConn4523 : 5/5/2014 11:14 am : link
any of these picks are in high demand. Rumors and mis-information don't change the fact that we are picking 12, and there is a small chance we trade up or down.

Staying put at 12 is all we can really realistically discuss. And if we can get a mainstay, versatile OL that helps keep Eli upright and blocks for Jennings and co, sign me up. It isn't sexy, but I don't care about that.
I am good with Martin at #12 or trading down  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2014 11:15 am : link
if the team can pick up multiple picks to continue to revamp this Offense.

There is a decent chance the only guys we have on this current Offense that will be starting in two years is Eli, Cruz and Pugh.

IF he or whomever  
old man : 5/5/2014 11:19 am : link
they pick at #12 is not 'of' great value, JR should be fired immediately.
The OL has been ignored in the upper round(sans 2013), and literally caused EM pain and suffering, they have to get better, and younger. If he can do the job immediately, he starts, and wherever it is on the OL he should be of great value(otherwise,see sentence 1).
Just all depends how the Giants see him, the 12 spot, and value.
I am a huge Aaron Donald fan, but...  
ImaGiant86 : 5/5/2014 11:22 am : link
if he's off the board Martin is the guy I want. If it so happens they choose Martin over Donald, well I would be upset but would understand given how safe a pick he will be.

I really rather go WR/OL on day two.
A great QB is never great  
djstat : 5/5/2014 11:23 am : link
without a good o line.

Last year we had a pathetic oline.

In 2011 we had a good o line and in 2007 a great o line.

I like Martin at 12...why not? Besides if you trade down someone else may grab him. Guys from 12-25 are interchangable.
I would completely  
MookGiants : 5/5/2014 11:24 am : link
disagree with having a very good line in 2011. It was at best average and I would argue below average, but that year was the exception to the rule, what Eli did that year was something we'll never see again, he had an amazing season without having a good line and with the worst running game in the NFL
an 8-10 year starter  
Phil in LA : 5/5/2014 11:25 am : link
is great value at 12, so I disagree with the premise. He is the most perfect fit for the Giants in the entire draft.
Zack Martin is being seen by many  
Blue Blood : 5/5/2014 11:29 am : link
as slightly below Matthews. He had an impressive Senior Bowl workout. There should be no issue with taking one of the most solid pro ready players at a position where we have a tremendous need.
BTW - the entire football world is calling Zach Martin  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2014 11:29 am : link
a "safe bet" like its almost not a positive.

Safe bets can turn into All-Pros too...you know?
.  
arcarsenal : 5/5/2014 11:32 am : link
To me, if you come away with a productive starter who you can rely on week in and week out, you've succeeded in your choice. Martin looks like the type of dude who will fit that description.
The giants have several needs  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/5/2014 11:35 am : link
and there are several pro-ready talents at those need positions. It's all about what they deem more important.

I think they're looking for game changers at that pick. Martin can be a fine prospect and also not a game changer. It's no insult.

If the Giants don't address offensive line with #12, there may be a riot on this board, but they're still going to have a lot of very, very good offensive line options in the second.
RE: Never quite understood what  
AnishPatel : 5/5/2014 11:42 am : link
In comment 11654311 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
really means..If the guy can be a solid starter for many years, what's greater value than that?


He is excellent value in fact. Guy was a solid prospect who is versatile. People say he is one of the cleanest players in the first round. Now, OL is not a sexy pick, so I can see why fans don't want a non sexy pick in the first round. Some may even think draft a skill player in the 1st and get the fat people later on. I disagree, Martin is a solid prospect and I would be very happy to get him at 12.
RE: RE: Never quite understood what  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/5/2014 11:44 am : link
In comment 11654426 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
In comment 11654311 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


really means..If the guy can be a solid starter for many years, what's greater value than that?



He is excellent value in fact. Guy was a solid prospect who is versatile. People say he is one of the cleanest players in the first round. Now, OL is not a sexy pick, so I can see why fans don't want a non sexy pick in the first round. Some may even think draft a skill player in the 1st and get the fat people later on. I disagree, Martin is a solid prospect and I would be very happy to get him at 12.


That's interesting, you were banging on the table loudest for an offensive weapon.
Martin will be good but there will be elite play-makers/game changers  
Big_Blue_Wrecking_Crew : 5/5/2014 11:45 am : link
at 12.

Donald (in a tier of his own as an elite pass rushing DT is one of the hardest things to find and can be more impactful than a good DE)


Beckum Jr
Lee
Ebron (perhaps borderline elite but he gives us a weapon at TE we haven't had since Shockey)
Evans

Its hard to pass up these types of player if you can still get a good OL at 43.
Draft Outcome  
212BigBlue : 5/5/2014 11:55 am : link
needs to produce starters or competition at OL, DL, TE, WR, & LB. If Reese & Co could find 4 to 5 starters and/or contributors that's a huge step. They have been a momentum team for most of the Coughlin's tenure. When they get it right, they go on a roll. They've also proven to be a team that can flat out not show up for a stretch. It proves the NFL is not that far apart in terms of talent but coaching and mental toughness play a large part of the continued success. Hugely rewarding and frustrating over the last 10 years, so hopefully this year really starts with the draft, similar to '07, did and builds on that. Zach Martin , Aaron Donald or Jake Mathews if he drifts, would hopefully provide that immediate quality to set the tone and upgrade either line.
RE: Martin will be good but there will be elite play-makers/game changers  
section125 : 5/5/2014 12:01 pm : link
In comment 11654435 Big_Blue_Wrecking_Crew said:
Quote:
at 12.

Donald (in a tier of his own as an elite pass rushing DT is one of the hardest things to find and can be more impactful than a good DE)


Beckum Jr
Lee
Ebron (perhaps borderline elite but he gives us a weapon at TE we haven't had since Shockey)
Evans

Its hard to pass up these types of player if you can still get a good OL at 43.


BBWC, none of those guys are worth a damn if Eli is on his back or in a walking boot on the sideline.
Fix the line 1st with a guy that appears to be a day one starter at anyone of 3 spots. The draft is 3 rounds deep with WRs. Get the guy that keeps Eli clean and opens holes for Jennings - which also keeps Eli of the ground.
Well,  
Curtis in VA : 5/5/2014 12:03 pm : link
the Giants like Martin at 12.
TTH,  
AnishPatel : 5/5/2014 12:09 pm : link
Only AFTER an OL prospect. If Lewan or Martin, guys I always wanted aren't there than WR or Ebron. I want a trench player to protect Eli
Lowell  
Jim in Tampa : 5/5/2014 12:19 pm : link
You say that "the trade value charts circulated on the Internet are besides the point when someone wants to trade up badly enough."

That's true. However, it works both ways.

In the deepest draft in more than a decade that 2nd or 3rd round pick an NFL team might have given up in previous years has more value this year. So I think they would be more likely to offer less than the trade value chart as opposed to more.
I would be very happy with Martin at #12  
ZogZerg : 5/5/2014 12:28 pm : link
Unless they think one of the receivers is that much better than the group, I think that's what the Giants do.
For the Giants, Martin may be more of a "game changer"  
CT Charlie : 5/5/2014 12:34 pm : link
than any other player in the draft. The weakest link in the chain was the ENTIRE O-line last year. If Martin is as versatile and dependable as advertised, he may strengthen our O-line more than anyone else there is.

Watkins, Clowney, and Manziel are more dynamic, but Martin can potentially improve out team more than they can.

RE: RE: Martin will be good but there will be elite play-makers/game changers  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/5/2014 12:34 pm : link
In comment 11654474 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 11654435 Big_Blue_Wrecking_Crew said:


Quote:


at 12.

Donald (in a tier of his own as an elite pass rushing DT is one of the hardest things to find and can be more impactful than a good DE)


Beckum Jr
Lee
Ebron (perhaps borderline elite but he gives us a weapon at TE we haven't had since Shockey)
Evans

Its hard to pass up these types of player if you can still get a good OL at 43.



BBWC, none of those guys are worth a damn if Eli is on his back or in a walking boot on the sideline.
Fix the line 1st with a guy that appears to be a day one starter at anyone of 3 spots. The draft is 3 rounds deep with WRs. Get the guy that keeps Eli clean and opens holes for Jennings - which also keeps Eli of the ground.


The draft is 3 rounds deep for linemen too.

There are day-one starters projected for the 2nd round. There's also certainly no guarantee that any OL the Giants get = fixed offensive line in 2014.
RE: RE: Martin will be good but there will be elite play-makers/game changers  
Big_Blue_Wrecking_Crew : 5/5/2014 1:03 pm : link
In comment 11654474 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 11654435 Big_Blue_Wrecking_Crew said:


Quote:


at 12.

Donald (in a tier of his own as an elite pass rushing DT is one of the hardest things to find and can be more impactful than a good DE)


Beckum Jr
Lee
Ebron (perhaps borderline elite but he gives us a weapon at TE we haven't had since Shockey)
Evans

Its hard to pass up these types of player if you can still get a good OL at 43.



BBWC, none of those guys are worth a damn if Eli is on his back or in a walking boot on the sideline.
Fix the line 1st with a guy that appears to be a day one starter at anyone of 3 spots. The draft is 3 rounds deep with WRs. Get the guy that keeps Eli clean and opens holes for Jennings - which also keeps Eli of the ground.


1. Line has been partially addressed this off-season, so while it's still a decent sized need it isn't quite as dire a situation as before

2. This draft is very deep at OL and other positions which will allow for quite a few very highly rated and possible day 1 starters to be available @43.
RE: RE: RE: Martin will be good but there will be elite play-makers/game changers  
Big_Blue_Wrecking_Crew : 5/5/2014 1:10 pm : link
In comment 11654547 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 11654474 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 11654435 Big_Blue_Wrecking_Crew said:


Quote:



The draft is 3 rounds deep for linemen too.

There are day-one starters projected for the 2nd round. There's also certainly no guarantee that any OL the Giants get = fixed offensive line in 2014.


Some BBiers simply have it stuck in their head that it's impossible to address the OL adequately after the first round. It's not, especially in this draft.
Actually it will not be easy to address the OL after round one  
Blue Blood : 5/5/2014 1:16 pm : link
fans have been believing the whole.. the draft is deep mantra..

However just because you have many players at a position doesnt mean that those players fit you.. your scheme.. etc etc..

And other teams have OL needs as well.. Dont assume your going to get the help later at the OL position..
RE: RE: RE: RE: Martin will be good but there will be elite play-makers/game changers  
MookGiants : 5/5/2014 1:26 pm : link
In comment 11654612 Big_Blue_Wrecking_Crew said:
Quote:
In comment 11654547 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 11654474 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 11654435 Big_Blue_Wrecking_Crew said:


Quote:



The draft is 3 rounds deep for linemen too.

There are day-one starters projected for the 2nd round. There's also certainly no guarantee that any OL the Giants get = fixed offensive line in 2014.



Some BBiers simply have it stuck in their head that it's impossible to address the OL adequately after the first round. It's not, especially in this draft.


How many guys after the first round can play immediately? Sure, we can draft guys later, but find me a tackle in the 2nd round and later that's going to be able to play this year. Eli's career isn't going to last forever, can't wait a couple years to fix this o-line, it needs to be fixed now.
Martin  
blue42 : 5/5/2014 1:39 pm : link
is the equal of every guy listed......and better than most.
How does he not have value at 12. A five position player on the OL...when is the last time that happened?
you're  
blue42 : 5/5/2014 1:42 pm : link
sitting with your personnel people and someone says" gee, if only there was a guy who can play all five spots"....
The whole room erupts with laughter.
I don't get too caught up in "this guy could play all 5 spots"  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/5/2014 1:53 pm : link
That's like the nebulous MLB "5-tool player".

In no way am I knocking Zach Martin. Rather, I just have a slanted eye to the process.

Everybody swore up and down that Jockel and Fisher were can't miss 10-year guys.

None of them were good enough to play LT.
Pugh, the afterthought, outplayed both.


And for as many times as Reese has said Pugh can play "anywhere on the line", he hasn't practiced or played anywhere but at RT.
If Pugh was worth it at 19  
jeff57 : 5/5/2014 1:54 pm : link
Martin is worth it at 12.
My fear is that all founr OL will be gone by 12.  
yatqb : 5/5/2014 1:55 pm : link
That tells you something about how other teams might view Martin. A plug and play guy with pro bowl potential is nothing to sneeze about. You count your blessings if you can get one.

As for WR, there are enough good ones in the draft that we'd be likely to land a good one at 43 (perhaps not a plug and play guy like Beckham might be, but a good one nonetheless) whereas I think there will be a run on linemen in the first two rounds and we may not wind up landing a "sure bet" player if we wait till 43.
Aren't Martin's arms  
Jay in Toronto : 5/5/2014 1:58 pm : link
too long for the Giants??
An OT whose best position may be OG  
PEEJ : 5/5/2014 2:13 pm : link
is just not a "sexy" pick. It doesn't mean it's not a good one.
RE: Never quite understood what  
chris r : 5/5/2014 2:18 pm : link
In comment 11654311 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
really means..If the guy can be a solid starter for many years, what's greater value than that?


A pro bowler for many years?
I thought  
AnishPatel : 5/5/2014 2:24 pm : link
pro bowl is over rated and meaningless.
RE: I thought  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/5/2014 2:24 pm : link
In comment 11654761 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
pro bowl is over rated and meaningless.


It is until it isnt.
I'd be very happy with that pick  
RobCarpenter : 5/5/2014 3:10 pm : link
The Giants' OL was a complete and utter disaster last year. Especially the interior of the line, where Martin can help immediately.

How does Martin  
CromartiesKid21 : 5/5/2014 3:13 pm : link
compare to high OG picks in past years...Warmack and DeCastro? Warmack was the #10 overall pick in the '11 draft which has been the worst in years so his slot selection might have been skewed
Warmack  
MookGiants : 5/5/2014 3:34 pm : link
was in the '13 draft.
Sorry meant '13  
CromartiesKid21 : 5/5/2014 3:49 pm : link
which was the terrible draft strength wise i was referring to
Martins value is in the 2nd round  
#10* : 5/5/2014 4:34 pm : link
The Giants offense needs to move the ball on 3rd down. An extra 3 seconds in the pocket with our current core is a toss up. Eli needs a security blanket.
Huh?  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2014 4:43 pm : link
.
There are sexier potential picks than Martin...  
Torrag : 5/5/2014 4:50 pm : link
it comes down to this...do the Giants value his versatility enough to spend the teams highest draft pick in a decade(Eli for Rivers). Remember this is a prospect some feel isn't an elite LT prospect and might not stick there in the NFL. He's been a 4 year LT for the Fighting Irish so If that is the case he'll be projecting to a position he's never played. That is a risk in and of itself. I guess it all comes down to what the Giants think of him and whoever else is on the board.

Strategically and philosophically I'd prefer to draft a guy that can excel for our offensive line and stabilize that group. Eli is the franchise and as the ankle proves he isn't getting less injury prone as he ages. Buty it has to be the right guy or I'd look elsewhere. I'll leave it up to JR and the Giants braintrust to do the right thing.
MookGiants  
Klaatu : 5/5/2014 5:18 pm : link
Mitchell Schwartz, Sebastian Vollmer, Phil Loadholt...all 2nd Round picks who started as rookies. It's not unheard of.
Klaatu  
MookGiants : 5/5/2014 5:20 pm : link
of course it isn't unheard of, but it's unlikely and the chances of a guy starting is better if he's a 1st rounder than a 2nd rounder. I'm very worried about this o-line, they are right now as it stands very reliant on JD Walton who hasnt played since 2012, Chris Snee who looks shot physically, and Beatty being healthy and bouncing back and having a good year. That's scary to me
It's scary to me, too, especially when it comes to Walton.  
Klaatu : 5/5/2014 5:23 pm : link
However, I just don't buy into having to absolutely, positively use a 1st Round pick on an O-Lineman. If it happens, fine, but I won't lose any sleep if it doesn't...not if the Giants opt for a top-tier defender or offensive skill player.
well  
MookGiants : 5/5/2014 5:24 pm : link
I wouldn't just take an o-lineman to take one, if the top 4 are gone then you obviously have to take someone else. But if one of those 4 are there I would be pretty disappointed if they went another direction. I could see maybe if Evans if still on the board justifying it
One thing about Snee.  
Klaatu : 5/5/2014 5:32 pm : link
He may be penciled in as a starter, but the operative word is "penciled" because he can easily be erased. I forget which talking head said it the other night, but the comment was something about a pay cut being the first step out the door. I figure Schwartz will end up at RG sooner rather than later.
that's another  
MookGiants : 5/5/2014 6:58 pm : link
reason why I want to take an OL early. Snee right now is penciled in as starter simply because the depth behind him is non-existant.
the  
blue42 : 5/5/2014 10:30 pm : link
value of a guy who can play all five positions when you have guys at all five positions with medical issues is just so obvious.Sure, he can only play one at a time but the value is
just to high to ignore.
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