ZM is an extremely safe bet, imo. Watching him in the Senior Bowl I was impressed with his excellent technique and dominance at both left tackle and left guard. He appears to be a plug and play prospect with real pro bowl possibilities.
Still, I wouldn't pick him at 12. He doesn't represent great value there and may actually be overvalued there given the exceptional overall depth of the draft. The 12 spot is likely to be coveted by teams looking to trade up. Ozzie Newsome said he's already received numerous calls regarding the 17th pick so it's reasonable to think the 12 pick is in high demand.
By trading down to the last third of round one the Giants could use the first three picks and end up with:
1) A talented wide receiver who can stretch the field. Virtually any receiver at this point is going to be outstanding value compared to receiver classes of prior years owing to the once in a lifetime depth of this receiver class. Take your pick of 8-10 guys at the end of round one or top to middle of round two.
2.A good receiving tight end like Amaro or ASF or a more complete one like Niklas.
3. A good lineman: Bitonio, Moses, J.James, Sua-Filo, maybe Cyrus K.
By trading down from 12 and using the extra pick, we could fill three needs with quality prospects. I'm assuming that JR will hold out for a deal he can't refuse that will give him an extra second rounder without dropping too far in the first round. Btw, the trade value charts circulated on the Internet are besides the point when someone wants to trade up badly enough.
I would apply this strategy to other possibilities like Donald, Barr and Lewan that might be available at 12. However, if by chance, Watkins, J. Matthews, or Evans were there at 12, it might be better to take one of them.
Thoughts?
Will be interesting to see how things unfold on Thurs.
We'll know in a few days.
I'd prefer quality over quantity in this instance.
He said he couldnt get the image of Eli getting pummeled all of last season and in the final game getting hurt and having to be helped off the field.
Eli will not be around forever, if we don't get the OL completely fixed we've got no shot.
They did a couple things in free agency to help, but there are still a bunch of question marks on the line. Walton hasn't played since what, 2012? Snee seems to always be hurt now. Beatty may not be ready for the start of the season and if he is who the hell knows if hes going to suck like last year.
If you don't come out of this first round with a top offensive lineman I think its a big problem. Now if Robinson, Matthews, Lewan, Martin go in the first 11 picks nothing you can do, but I'd love to get Martin.
If you go into the year with this as your offensive line and very little depth behind it I think the Giants are in trouble.
Beatty/Brown, Schwartz, Walton, Snee, Pugh.
Complete question marks at 3 of the 5 spots there
If I'm getting another guy I can pencil in for the next handful of years who will be a mainstay on this line along with Pugh, I think it's an excellent pick and I would gladly take it.
People don't like OL picks early because it's not "sexy".. but it's extremely important.
To me, if you really like and want a player, you should take him when he is available to you. Trading back is nice, and your explanation is well-taken (I agree there are holes to fill). But if Martin in their guy taking him at 12 is the right thing to do. Looking back three years from now if he is a stud, none of us will say "wow we could had him at 17 instead".
Staying put at 12 is all we can really realistically discuss. And if we can get a mainstay, versatile OL that helps keep Eli upright and blocks for Jennings and co, sign me up. It isn't sexy, but I don't care about that.
There is a decent chance the only guys we have on this current Offense that will be starting in two years is Eli, Cruz and Pugh.
The OL has been ignored in the upper round(sans 2013), and literally caused EM pain and suffering, they have to get better, and younger. If he can do the job immediately, he starts, and wherever it is on the OL he should be of great value(otherwise,see sentence 1).
Just all depends how the Giants see him, the 12 spot, and value.
I really rather go WR/OL on day two.
Last year we had a pathetic oline.
In 2011 we had a good o line and in 2007 a great o line.
I like Martin at 12...why not? Besides if you trade down someone else may grab him. Guys from 12-25 are interchangable.
Safe bets can turn into All-Pros too...you know?
I think they're looking for game changers at that pick. Martin can be a fine prospect and also not a game changer. It's no insult.
If the Giants don't address offensive line with #12, there may be a riot on this board, but they're still going to have a lot of very, very good offensive line options in the second.
He is excellent value in fact. Guy was a solid prospect who is versatile. People say he is one of the cleanest players in the first round. Now, OL is not a sexy pick, so I can see why fans don't want a non sexy pick in the first round. Some may even think draft a skill player in the 1st and get the fat people later on. I disagree, Martin is a solid prospect and I would be very happy to get him at 12.
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really means..If the guy can be a solid starter for many years, what's greater value than that?
He is excellent value in fact. Guy was a solid prospect who is versatile. People say he is one of the cleanest players in the first round. Now, OL is not a sexy pick, so I can see why fans don't want a non sexy pick in the first round. Some may even think draft a skill player in the 1st and get the fat people later on. I disagree, Martin is a solid prospect and I would be very happy to get him at 12.
That's interesting, you were banging on the table loudest for an offensive weapon.
Donald (in a tier of his own as an elite pass rushing DT is one of the hardest things to find and can be more impactful than a good DE)
Beckum Jr
Lee
Ebron (perhaps borderline elite but he gives us a weapon at TE we haven't had since Shockey)
Evans
Its hard to pass up these types of player if you can still get a good OL at 43.
Donald (in a tier of his own as an elite pass rushing DT is one of the hardest things to find and can be more impactful than a good DE)
Beckum Jr
Lee
Ebron (perhaps borderline elite but he gives us a weapon at TE we haven't had since Shockey)
Evans
Its hard to pass up these types of player if you can still get a good OL at 43.
BBWC, none of those guys are worth a damn if Eli is on his back or in a walking boot on the sideline.
Fix the line 1st with a guy that appears to be a day one starter at anyone of 3 spots. The draft is 3 rounds deep with WRs. Get the guy that keeps Eli clean and opens holes for Jennings - which also keeps Eli of the ground.
That's true. However, it works both ways.
In the deepest draft in more than a decade that 2nd or 3rd round pick an NFL team might have given up in previous years has more value this year. So I think they would be more likely to offer less than the trade value chart as opposed to more.
Watkins, Clowney, and Manziel are more dynamic, but Martin can potentially improve out team more than they can.
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at 12.
Donald (in a tier of his own as an elite pass rushing DT is one of the hardest things to find and can be more impactful than a good DE)
Beckum Jr
Lee
Ebron (perhaps borderline elite but he gives us a weapon at TE we haven't had since Shockey)
Evans
Its hard to pass up these types of player if you can still get a good OL at 43.
BBWC, none of those guys are worth a damn if Eli is on his back or in a walking boot on the sideline.
Fix the line 1st with a guy that appears to be a day one starter at anyone of 3 spots. The draft is 3 rounds deep with WRs. Get the guy that keeps Eli clean and opens holes for Jennings - which also keeps Eli of the ground.
The draft is 3 rounds deep for linemen too.
There are day-one starters projected for the 2nd round. There's also certainly no guarantee that any OL the Giants get = fixed offensive line in 2014.
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at 12.
Donald (in a tier of his own as an elite pass rushing DT is one of the hardest things to find and can be more impactful than a good DE)
Beckum Jr
Lee
Ebron (perhaps borderline elite but he gives us a weapon at TE we haven't had since Shockey)
Evans
Its hard to pass up these types of player if you can still get a good OL at 43.
BBWC, none of those guys are worth a damn if Eli is on his back or in a walking boot on the sideline.
Fix the line 1st with a guy that appears to be a day one starter at anyone of 3 spots. The draft is 3 rounds deep with WRs. Get the guy that keeps Eli clean and opens holes for Jennings - which also keeps Eli of the ground.
1. Line has been partially addressed this off-season, so while it's still a decent sized need it isn't quite as dire a situation as before
2. This draft is very deep at OL and other positions which will allow for quite a few very highly rated and possible day 1 starters to be available @43.
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In comment 11654435 Big_Blue_Wrecking_Crew said:
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The draft is 3 rounds deep for linemen too.
There are day-one starters projected for the 2nd round. There's also certainly no guarantee that any OL the Giants get = fixed offensive line in 2014.
Some BBiers simply have it stuck in their head that it's impossible to address the OL adequately after the first round. It's not, especially in this draft.
However just because you have many players at a position doesnt mean that those players fit you.. your scheme.. etc etc..
And other teams have OL needs as well.. Dont assume your going to get the help later at the OL position..
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In comment 11654474 section125 said:
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In comment 11654435 Big_Blue_Wrecking_Crew said:
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The draft is 3 rounds deep for linemen too.
There are day-one starters projected for the 2nd round. There's also certainly no guarantee that any OL the Giants get = fixed offensive line in 2014.
Some BBiers simply have it stuck in their head that it's impossible to address the OL adequately after the first round. It's not, especially in this draft.
How many guys after the first round can play immediately? Sure, we can draft guys later, but find me a tackle in the 2nd round and later that's going to be able to play this year. Eli's career isn't going to last forever, can't wait a couple years to fix this o-line, it needs to be fixed now.
How does he not have value at 12. A five position player on the OL...when is the last time that happened?
The whole room erupts with laughter.
In no way am I knocking Zach Martin. Rather, I just have a slanted eye to the process.
Everybody swore up and down that Jockel and Fisher were can't miss 10-year guys.
None of them were good enough to play LT.
Pugh, the afterthought, outplayed both.
And for as many times as Reese has said Pugh can play "anywhere on the line", he hasn't practiced or played anywhere but at RT.
As for WR, there are enough good ones in the draft that we'd be likely to land a good one at 43 (perhaps not a plug and play guy like Beckham might be, but a good one nonetheless) whereas I think there will be a run on linemen in the first two rounds and we may not wind up landing a "sure bet" player if we wait till 43.
A pro bowler for many years?
It is until it isnt.
Strategically and philosophically I'd prefer to draft a guy that can excel for our offensive line and stabilize that group. Eli is the franchise and as the ankle proves he isn't getting less injury prone as he ages. Buty it has to be the right guy or I'd look elsewhere. I'll leave it up to JR and the Giants braintrust to do the right thing.
just to high to ignore.