Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Dottino and Schmelk on Giants Worst-Case Scenario

Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/5/2014 3:09 pm
Video...
Giants.com - ( New Window )
Worst-case scenario  
Randy in CT : 5/5/2014 3:18 pm : link
where not 4 QBs are selected...not 3, 2...No--none?

Nah. I like the process of elimination but still.
I'd trade down if possible  
PatersonPlank : 5/5/2014 3:23 pm : link
If not, then I do like the pick.
I don't think anyone would be particularly thrilled with that pick  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/5/2014 3:24 pm : link
.
I'd  
AcidTest : 5/5/2014 3:25 pm : link
be surprised if no QBs were taken before #12, but that would only push one player, probably Ebron, down to us. I also think Detroit is more likely to take Gilbert than Ebron.

I'd be fine with Gilbert at #12, but would be tempted by Beckham.
I'd be surprised to see the Giants take Gilbert  
Jan in DC : 5/5/2014 3:28 pm : link
But I'd also be surprised if no QB was drafted in the top 10. I think some team is going to take a chance on Manziel.
I see  
SBlue46 : 5/5/2014 3:36 pm : link
Pick 12 with scenario where
Martin ebron barr donald
Evans.. Being there and
Reese picks a surprise
I would have ZERO issue with that pick  
Blue Blood : 5/5/2014 3:37 pm : link
a rock solid secondary with depth for now and for the future.. and a stellar kick return option..

no issues at all...
Great discussion  
TMS : 5/5/2014 3:37 pm : link
and made a lot of sense, if that is the scenario. Value like Gilbert is not as good a value as we got with Amukamara in 2011 at #19. But he is in a highly regarded skill position and Dottino's argument holds water. Trading up or down is still a possibility. Especially down if somebody really likes one of the QBs.
I doubt it will play out like that  
geemanfan : 5/5/2014 3:38 pm : link
But it's a no brainier to take the best CB in the draft , if it did.
Unfortunately  
geelabee : 5/5/2014 3:38 pm : link
Solid logic....100% agree with them in that scenario...based on the board Gilbert has to be the pick
Draft whatever QB  
ben apuna's fanbase : 5/5/2014 3:38 pm : link
and auction him off. But I would be extremely happy with Gilbert.
RE:  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/5/2014 3:42 pm : link
In comment 11654873 ben apuna's fanbase said:
Quote:
Draft whatever QB and auction him off.


I think that's just trying to be too cute.

Draft a QB that nobody thought enough of in the first 12 picks? Why play games. Just get a player you like.

Who the hell would be unhappy with Gilbert?  
Overseer : 5/5/2014 3:43 pm : link
think 2, 3 years from now. And even for this year, Giants will probably use the nickel frequently since their LBs outside of Beason suck and they need to keep up with Sproles and McCoy.

Would be a solid pick regardless of so-called "worst case scenarios".
I can't see us going Corner  
Rjanyg : 5/5/2014 3:44 pm : link
after the number of guys they just signed. If we only had DRC and picked up Princes option, sure, but the signed Thurmond, Bowman, Mcbride and we have Hosley, not to mention Demps, Brown. We have a very crowded secondary. Should go in another direction.
RE: Who the hell would be unhappy with Gilbert?  
robbieballs2003 : 5/5/2014 3:53 pm : link
In comment 11654883 Overseer said:
Quote:
think 2, 3 years from now. And even for this year, Giants will probably use the nickel frequently since their LBs outside of Beason suck and they need to keep up with Sproles and McCoy.

Would be a solid pick regardless of so-called "worst case scenarios".


I wouldn't be happy and not because of the position. A lot of times I will describe people as someone who is playing WR and then there are actual WRs. I think Gilbert is just playing corner. Fuller is a corner. Gilbert brings a lot to the table in terms of measurements but has a ton to learn about playing the position. I don't know if he will ever develop into a corner. Fuller is just flat out better than him imo. Obviously it is just my opinion but I think Gilbert is rated highly because of potential rather than actual play.
RE: Who the hell would be unhappy with Gilbert?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/5/2014 3:55 pm : link
In comment 11654883 Overseer said:
Quote:
think 2, 3 years from now. And even for this year, Giants will probably use the nickel frequently since their LBs outside of Beason suck and they need to keep up with Sproles and McCoy.

Would be a solid pick regardless of so-called "worst case scenarios".


Sure, you take the long term into account when you draft, but for this year, they signed Thurmond, who is highly regarded, and they have depth at corner.

One year probably won't be enough time to determine if they want to let prince walk and give the role to Gilbert, and DRC isn't going anywhere for a while.

Not that it would be a bad pick. There's value in it, but it's a luxurious one when you consider the glaring needs elsewhere. I believe in getting value for your picks, but with a little more balance towards taking needs into account too.
Totally disagree with the rationale  
Pete in VA : 5/5/2014 3:56 pm : link
He eliminates Beckham because it's a deep wide receiver draft and Giants could get one in the 3d or 4th. We don't need "a receiver". We need a #1 receiver. We need someone better than Randle -- a guy who is a true dynamic threat on the outside. That is Beckham.
You can argue that CB is always a ''need'' position  
SB : 5/5/2014 3:56 pm : link
...in today's game. It'd suck if we couldn't land a big OT, or Donald or Barr, but if we get Gilbert that'd be good leverage if Prince doesn't continue to prove and/or Thurmond flames out (pun intended).
RE: Who the hell would be unhappy with Gilbert?  
Big_Blue_Wrecking_Crew : 5/5/2014 4:03 pm : link
In comment 11654883 Overseer said:
Quote:
think 2, 3 years from now. And even for this year, Giants will probably use the nickel frequently since their LBs outside of Beason suck and they need to keep up with Sproles and McCoy.

Would be a solid pick regardless of so-called "worst case scenarios".


Gilbert lacks good football instincts. Gilnert may have the sexy measurables but Dennard will be the better pro.
you absolutely can not take a CB this year in rd 1  
GiantsFan84 : 5/5/2014 4:08 pm : link
if that happens you go WR with beckham
I don't get what he said about Shazier  
Ira : 5/5/2014 4:10 pm : link
being a 3-4 linebacker. I think he'd be fine in a 4-3. I thought that's what he played in college.
Ira  
Pete in VA : 5/5/2014 4:16 pm : link
I agree. What he said about Shazier makes no sense at all.He shows a clip of him rushing a passer and all of a suddden he's a 3-4 OLB? Nonsense.
This  
Amtoft : 5/5/2014 4:18 pm : link
would easily be Beckham at that point. The draft falls way off at WR after the top 15 WRs are gone. After that there are only a few WRs each of the remaining rounds that are worth drafting imo. So take Beckham and get OL, DT, DE, LB, TE, etc with your other picks.

People assume because there are so many top end talent at WR that it is a deep draft, but it falls off. It falls off big time. The only later WRs I really like late are TJ Jones from ND (who for some reason hasn't been valued high) in the 4th or 5th and Cody Hoffman with our 6th.
Fair points to object to Gilbert the player  
Overseer : 5/5/2014 4:21 pm : link
but I definitely do not get objecting to a CB selection because the Giants are supposedly "stacked" in the secondary. Someone will probably go down, someone may disappoint (ahem, DRC in physical late season games), and it's never bad to have another player waiting as the inevitable roster turnover occurs.

I'm not a strict "BPA" guy (and think it's largely a loaded concept anyway), but another good young CB is always welcome.

Not that I think he will be the selection.
Worse case scenario is  
Headhunter : 5/5/2014 4:22 pm : link
if their 10 minutes are up sand they lose the pick otherwise they are a lock to get a very very good player
Shazier is a prototype 4-3 WILL  
Torrag : 5/5/2014 4:28 pm : link
so they're way off base on that one...in fact he's my super sleeper for the Giants @12. He could be the best player that fits our scheme left on the board(depending on how the team likes beckham/ebron/donald/gilbert) that also fills a need. He'd be an instant upgrade to the like of Paysinger/Williams and Bradford. For me he's among the most undervalued prospects in this draft class. His closing burst is probably the best of any defender not named Clowney. Brings the pain and plays physical. Elite production and athleticism. Team leader. His overall size is marginal @6'1/237# but to say he's small would be inaccurate. Of course it's a mega longshot he's the pick but I'd actually be pretty stoked. He could be a real asset to our defense and a top player at his position in the league in the near future.
RE: Shazier is a prototype 4-3 WILL  
Amtoft : 5/5/2014 4:42 pm : link
In comment 11654978 Torrag said:
Quote:
so they're way off base on that one...in fact he's my super sleeper for the Giants @12. He could be the best player that fits our scheme left on the board(depending on how the team likes beckham/ebron/donald/gilbert) that also fills a need. He'd be an instant upgrade to the like of Paysinger/Williams and Bradford. For me he's among the most undervalued prospects in this draft class. His closing burst is probably the best of any defender not named Clowney. Brings the pain and plays physical. Elite production and athleticism. Team leader. His overall size is marginal @6'1/237# but to say he's small would be inaccurate. Of course it's a mega longshot he's the pick but I'd actually be pretty stoked. He could be a real asset to our defense and a top player at his position in the league in the near future.


Big fan of Shazier also... Fastest LB in the draft who was all over the field.
All in on Beckham if that is the scenario  
Peter from CT : 5/5/2014 4:44 pm : link
and not sad about it for a moment...
If that happens,  
AnishPatel : 5/5/2014 5:02 pm : link
Id be happy with, not in any order but: Mosley, Gilbert, Dennard, Ha Ha Clinton- Dix, Odell B.
If this truly is worst case scenario than trading down is not an  
wgenesis123 : 5/5/2014 5:07 pm : link
option that is afforded the Giants. I think the Giants have to bite the bullet and go O-line here with Moses or Bittino. If they did I would not be uncomfortable with the reach after the nice reach for Pugh last year. If 4 O-lineman went off in the first 11 picks than how many go off the board in the first 42 before the Giants pick again. A run on O-line leaves you reaching in round two for a lesser talent on the O-line. At some point the depth of this draft catches up with the picks, if you believe its round two than you can go a differant way with pick 12 and still improve the O-line. Its a gamble either way as I see it and I want the better player to protect Eli.
Gilbert  
Marty866b : 5/5/2014 5:07 pm : link
This is not a very good year for corners and there are many who have Fuller and or Dennard rated higher. I don't believe any of these three are elite players at the position. The qb's are all there in this mock draft so you would hope as a Giant fan that we would trade the pick. If not, pick the best wideout on the board.
wgen  
Torrag : 5/5/2014 5:12 pm : link
I don't want to attack you personally but I don't agree with anything you just posted.
^^^^ I should have specified...  
Torrag : 5/5/2014 5:14 pm : link
.....about reaching for O-liemen especially since Pugh proved he wasn't a reach by outplaying every other lineman drafted last year as rookies.
Torrag  
wgenesis123 : 5/5/2014 5:52 pm : link
Thank you for not attacking me personally. It is nice to see you don't need to do that to make your point. I have no problem with your differance of opinion, however if Pugh proved he was not a reach is it possible another player could do the same this year. I know pick 12 is high to reach but not everyone believes Moses or Bittino would be a reach at 12.
We are talking worst case scenario  
wgenesis123 : 5/5/2014 5:56 pm : link
Not the way I want it to go. I want Donald or Martin. Evans wwould be a nice surprise too.
I agree with robbie about Fuller being a better CB than Gilbert.  
yatqb : 5/5/2014 6:00 pm : link
I would also take Beckham or Shazier at that spot if worst came to worst and I couldn't trade down.
The thought of  
Great White Ghost : 5/5/2014 6:07 pm : link
Amukamura, Cromratie and Gilbert on the field at the same time against the pass happy offenses we go against can't be a bad thing.Bottom line he would be best player available and that's always a good look.I really don't want a corner but it's a solid analysis and a solid pick.
interesting  
alligatorpie : 5/5/2014 6:16 pm : link
and just as some will say that 'you should not use the tackle as a guard for a year' (assuming he is a great one), some would say ('you never use a good corner at free safety for a year or two')...

but IF (an if with many, many factors, ok, yes, i admit that) it works and helps us win...its worth it.

(with regards to that we have corners)

(this is Not what I want to do, draft a corner, but...for the sake of the convo.
The Giants were loaded at LB  
David B. : 5/5/2014 6:17 pm : link
When they picked Carl Banks.

BPA means BPA.
Silly  
Modus Operandi : 5/5/2014 6:25 pm : link
There is no such thing as a worst case scenerio when you pick in the first half of the draft. Even if all 4 QB s drop like rocks, there will still be very good - excellent value there either in the form of a player at a non-need position or via a trade down.

Its only worst case if you've already fallen in love with a player (ala the Donald contingent) or you reach for a need now position (like Bitonio in this scenerio).
draft #1 rated QB  
George from PA : 5/5/2014 7:30 pm : link
And trade to highest bidder
you'd be wrong ten ton  
ep in md : 5/5/2014 7:47 pm : link
I don't think anyone would be particularly thrilled with that pick
Ten Ton Hammer : 3:24 pm : link : reply
_____________
Many would be thrilled having a young stud CB. Being able to defend 3-4 receiver sets would be key anytime of the season and particularly late in the year, and would also allow the DL to notch more sacks.
Draft the #1 QB  
JerseyCityJoe : 5/5/2014 7:48 pm : link
and let he compete for the top job.
If we drafted a qb in round one  
Spock : 5/5/2014 7:56 pm : link
This place would go bonkers.
RE: draft #1 rated QB  
Blue Blood : 5/5/2014 9:49 pm : link
In comment 11655237 George from PA said:
Quote:
And trade to highest bidder



and if no one bids.. your screwed..
No QBs taken in the Top 10????  
JohnB : 5/5/2014 9:55 pm : link
Whatever follows isn't worth watching.

Teams reach and over reach to get a great QB. With so much talent at the QB position, QBs WILL be taken early and often in this draft.
RE: Silly  
Boy Cord : 5/5/2014 10:18 pm : link
In comment 11655151 Modus Operandi said:
Quote:
There is no such thing as a worst case scenerio when you pick in the first half of the draft. Even if all 4 QB s drop like rocks, there will still be very good - excellent value there either in the form of a player at a non-need position or via a trade down.

Its only worst case if you've already fallen in love with a player (ala the Donald contingent) or you reach for a need now position (like Bitonio in this scenerio).


Cedric Jones.
RE: Silly  
chris r : 5/5/2014 10:52 pm : link
In comment 11655151 Modus Operandi said:
Quote:
There is no such thing as a worst case scenerio when you pick in the first half of the draft. Even if all 4 QB s drop like rocks, there will still be very good - excellent value there either in the form of a player at a non-need position or via a trade down.

Its only worst case if you've already fallen in love with a player (ala the Donald contingent) or you reach for a need now position (like Bitonio in this scenerio).


Yes there is. Of all possible scenarios for the Giants at 12, one is the worst.
That is the worst case scenario......  
Dry Lightning : 5/5/2014 11:01 pm : link
A fucking nightmare. That would be like 1996 all over again.
I would have zero issue  
Blue Blood : 5/5/2014 11:18 pm : link
with taking Beckham Jr.. i see people having him ranked around 13-15th best player in the draft..
a lot of  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/5/2014 11:36 pm : link
people on the NFLN and the draft sites who deal in rumors say teams are interested in trading up in the 13-15 range for Beckham. So you have to think he is in play possibly for us...plus, he's great after the catch and we supposedly are going to be a more WCO team.
Eric: if Beckham is available at #12 and the Steelers offered their  
Bobby Epps : 5/6/2014 12:09 am : link
1st Round pick (#15) and their 3d Round pick (#79) and the Giants thought the Steelers wanted to pick Beckham but the Giants were also interested in Beckham, if you were Reese would you select Beckham or trade down? (Same question if we received offers from the Chiefs or Patriots, with the necessary Value Points adjusted).

Assuming Matthews, Lewan, Martin, Ebron and Donald were already picked.

I would trade down and at #15 pick Xavier Su'a-Filo to play OG and at #79 BPA. I'd do it because we need draft picks because we still hve so many holes to fill even after all the FA signings; but I would not be interested in draft picks beyond the 3d Round so that if a team offered, for example, their 1st, 4th and 5th, I would select a player at #12.


You never ever trade down thinking there's ONE player you want, but  
BlueLou : 5/6/2014 6:28 am : link
at a later slot. If you have no clear cut BPA but rather 3-4 guys on the same tier targeted, you trade down as possible.
In the featured scenario the Jets might complicate the picture  
Bob in Newburgh : 5/6/2014 10:55 am : link
I believe that Plan A for the Jets is a modified for need bpa at 18 with no trade up.

However, I believe that the Jets will be reading QB picks as their key and if at least 2 are not likely to be taken before they pick, I believe Plan B will be implemented and they will attempt to trade up. Let's be clear here. The Jets will be moving up to get a better non-QB, not to take a QB.

Assuming the Jets stay put, I absolutely expect them to move up in either the 2nd or 3rd rds or even both.

Jets already have a ton of young athletes for camp. On a macro basis, they need quality, not quantity.
RE: you'd be wrong ten ton  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/6/2014 12:07 pm : link
In comment 11655277 ep in md said:
Quote:
I don't think anyone would be particularly thrilled with that pick
Ten Ton Hammer : 3:24 pm : link : reply
_____________
Many would be thrilled having a young stud CB. Being able to defend 3-4 receiver sets would be key anytime of the season and particularly late in the year, and would also allow the DL to notch more sacks.


They can defend 3-4 receiver sets right now. With Cromartie, Amukamara, Thurmond, and Bowman. They still have McBride, who played very well last year, and Hosley at the far end.

It's extremely difficult for a rookie to step in and be thrust into a role. With the talent they have, other than health getting in the way, I couldn't pencil in a rookie corner for much.
funny thing is  
djm : 5/6/2014 1:37 pm : link
the Giants might like a guy like Beckum more than Evans or Ebron or Donald or Martin so the worst case scenario might not really be bad in the eyes of Reese and Co.
I think it is possible  
Spock : 5/6/2014 9:49 pm : link
The worst case scenario occurs and none or maybe one qb is taken before us.
Back to the Corner