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A perspective on Bromley from one of BBIs most respected

Big Blue '56 : 5/11/2014 8:54 am
dorgan, was a HC for more years than many of you have probably been alive. His perspectives have always been treasured, anticipated and extremely respected..I wish he posted more..Out of my deep respect for the man, I sent an email to determine if posting his perspectives sat well with him. He's fine with it..

Quote:
I live
dorgan : 10:03 am : link : reply

about 45 minutes from SU so I follow them every year even when they stink. I would guess I've seen Bromley play 10-15 times over the past two years.
I thought he was the best player on the team by quite a bit.

He does draw a lot of double teams and had a fair percentage of incidents where he got a wash or won the battle against the double. That's a very good thing.

When you are doubled a high percentage of the time, it wears on you both physically and emotionally.
A lot of DTs start to lower their effort because they know they can't win.
I never saw him do that. That's another very good thing.
He keeps on plugging.

I can't compare his value to the available OL at the time because I was unfamiliar with quite a few of them, so I have
little opinion of the pick other than I think he's a legitimate pro DT
Pages: 1 2 | Show All |  Next>>
Thanks BB and thanks Dorgan  
BillT : 5/11/2014 8:58 am : link
There is nothing about Bronley, size, athleticism, production, character that would make you think he can't be a player or shouldn't have been taken where he was.
Here's the problem with a lot of 'analysis'  
jcn56 : 5/11/2014 8:58 am : link
Most people criticizing the pick will say 'but he was supposed to go..' and then claim we should have picked him later.

I don't know the guy from a hole in the wall - can't say I like or dislike the pick. But I do know that if there's anything to criticize, it's the Giants evaluation of the guy, not where they picked him. If they felt he had a 3rd round grade, then why try to play the 'wait and see' game to see if he's around in the 4th, because he's supposedly not ranked higher than a 6th? What makes people so sure that these draft rankings (which are so far off for the majority of players, basically anyone that goes outside of the first 20-30 picks), are reliable enough to use them to bash the Giants FO?
Quarles was supposedly a 3rd round pick  
Spock : 5/11/2014 9:02 am : link
Look where he went.

The guys who write these draft guides are not always right.
BB56..I read that earlier when he posted it. Great post by him and you  
Blue21 : 5/11/2014 9:08 am : link
We don't always take everything into consideration. For example: When the Giants look at a TE, they look to see if this kid has "growth" potential or has reached his peak in college. This could explain why some of our favorites were not favorites of the Giants and why TC might make a statement like we didn't view the TE class as very strong. They may feel what they have currently is better than anything they could draft and they may feel that although not drafted that the kid they signed as a UDFA has not peaked yet and can turn into a viable player with some coaching and the right opportunity. Also if it makes anyone on here feel better, the NE Patriots are taking heat this morning for passing on TE after TE and WR after WR yesterday. Two places they need help in.
Interesting, dorgan....  
Stu : 5/11/2014 9:10 am : link
Granted, when it's two against one, you aren't going to win the majority of the time, but when you say a fair amount, can you equate that into a guesstimate percentage? The reason I ask is that he was doubleteamed by some guys who will never sniff the NFL and was stopped. Again, 2 against 1, but how do you equate what he did at Syracuse and and how his skill set will measure up to a higher level of competition? Not an easy answer, and of course he will be coached up in the NFL and learn new techniques to improve his overall game as well. Thanks.
As for Bromley  
Spock : 5/11/2014 9:10 am : link
I'm all in. I love the intangibles he possesses.
Forget not always right  
jcn56 : 5/11/2014 9:10 am : link
They're wrong a lot more often than they're right. Take a look at whoever we sign or pursue in UDFA and see where they were supposed to be taken. I'd bet no more than 20% of them say they should have been undrafted, and of those 80% maybe 1 or 2 will actually have a round 7 target.

Where to pick a player doesn't come down to some consensus, it depends on the team's ability to grade talent. Assuming that someone will be available simply because they were projected to go elsewhere is a fool's errand.
thanks for sharing  
UberAlias : 5/11/2014 9:11 am : link
Always appreciated.
bill polian  
blapre74 : 5/11/2014 9:11 am : link
says if there is a guy u like, take him. dont worry about what the draftniks think. Im thrilled with the RB from BC, the Center, and Odell. :)
RE: Here's the problem with a lot of 'analysis'  
BillT : 5/11/2014 9:18 am : link
In comment 11671471 jcn56 said:
Quote:
What makes people so sure that these draft rankings (which are so far off for the majority of players, basically anyone that goes outside of the first 20-30 picks), are reliable enough to use them to bash the Giants FO?


This is what I sad before and is worth saying again. Do folks really think that reading draft pundits makes them actually knowledgeable about player evaluations?
I wish the Dorgan  
AnishPatel : 5/11/2014 9:19 am : link
would post more. Good job 56 !
Btw, when I said posting his perspectives, I meant  
Big Blue '56 : 5/11/2014 9:24 am : link
featuring it on a thread of its own..
Maybe it started with Kiper, but somewhere along the way  
SwirlingEddie : 5/11/2014 9:30 am : link
the Mock Draft business changed from predictions of what teams would do in the draft to statements of what teams should do.

I learn from the football posts of the old ball coach every time. It's his fascination with old balls I don't get.
I saw that post  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/11/2014 9:41 am : link
but on the two cut-ups (Clemson, Minnesota), he doesn't look good. Not 10th pick in the 3rd round good.
BB'56  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/11/2014 9:49 am : link
BTW, snickers had the best write-up on the guy.
....  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/11/2014 9:50 am : link
Quote:

bromley at syr.
snickers : 5/10/2014 9:46 am
I do not post often but would like to comment on Bromley. As a Syracuse fan and grad, some bias for sure but this was a good player taken by the Jints. Saw him often and always thought he gave us maximum effort and tenacity. Our 2 best defensive players were Bromley and Spruill and Spruill benefitted greatly from the presence of Bromley in front of him. B was routinely double teamed yet made plays to get to the ball carrier or knifed into the backfield. He plays somewhat high and for me disengages from blockers a bit less well than he should. However, I am no scout and how his skills at the college level translate to the NFL is open to question. I believe he can be valuable in engaging blockers and allow the linebackers to make plays much as he did at Syracuse. The early reaction to his pick reminds me of the reaction to the Pugh pick last year as well. Much criticism but I believe all of us would agree that he was a good selection. I believe I wrote then 2 or 3 times my opinion about Pugh to try and give my opinion on him and I hope that I am right about Bromley in much the same way.Patience is very important in this process. Again, I am only a fan and no expert, so my opinion is an educated guess but having seen him play and watching his improvement from year to year and the real progress he made last year makes me believe he has a high ceiling that he may reach given appropriate coaching. My 2cents.
RE: I saw that post  
Jon in NYC : 5/11/2014 9:52 am : link
In comment 11671524 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
but on the two cut-ups (Clemson, Minnesota), he doesn't look good. Not 10th pick in the 3rd round good.


Disagree. I watched those cut ups as well and he gets consistent penetration. He gets washed up in the run game some times, and he clearly needs to get stronger, but there's some good stuff to work with.
I  
AcidTest : 5/11/2014 9:53 am : link
am an SU alum, so I have a special interest in their football players. I also live just north of Baltimore, and SU is frequently on in this area. Bromley is a good player who really came on last year.

But I still think Reese reached for him in the third round. Fifth, maybe fourth, would have been fine, but there were still a lot of good football players on the board at #74, including DaQuan Jones of Penn State. I find it hard to believe that Bromley would not have been available in the fourth round.

Reese would get the benefit of the doubt if he had a better recent draft record, but he doesn't. He isn't Seattle. That doesn't mean that it's right to say he should be fired, but criticism of this pick as a reach is justified IMO until Bromley proves otherwise.

What this shows is that GMs can have vastly different opinions on players, and certainly have grades that are different than those assigned by fans or even professional draft gurus like Kiper and McShay.

Bromley is a Giant. I will root hard for him, as I'm sure everyone else will as well. He's a great kid.
No player is a "reach"...  
Wonderphil11 : 5/11/2014 10:10 am : link
IMO as the team selected them based on their rankings and how the draft was unfolding at the time. Unfortunately, the Giants weren't one of the teams with multiple picks so they couldn't jump around from aisle to aisle looking for the perfect fit at just the right price....at least without giving up too much.
Thanks E,  
Big Blue '56 : 5/11/2014 10:16 am : link
yes I saw that by snickers as well..Very good write-up
The only reason I can live with the Bromley pick is because  
PatersonPlank : 5/11/2014 10:19 am : link
we also got Quarles. I will just consider Quarles as the 3rd rounder and Bromley as the FA. One of them hopefully will make an impact. Since both are now here, it really doesn't matter where how they were drafted.
RE: Interesting, dorgan....  
dorgan : 5/11/2014 10:38 am : link
In comment 11671485 Stu said:
Quote:
Granted, when it's two against one, you aren't going to win the majority of the time, but when you say a fair amount, can you equate that into a guesstimate percentage? The reason I ask is that he was doubleteamed by some guys who will never sniff the NFL and was stopped. Again, 2 against 1, but how do you equate what he did at Syracuse and and how his skill set will measure up to a higher level of competition? Not an easy answer, and of course he will be coached up in the NFL and learn new techniques to improve his overall game as well. Thanks.



Stu,
valid point and that's why the draft is such a crap shoot.

Percentage? Well, if you defeat a double team 15% of the time, you're doing well. If you accomplish a wash another 15-20% of the time to get that number up to 30% or higher, you're doing real well.
From memory, I'd guess he was in that range.

As far as competition, SU played in the ACC, so they weren't playing the Batavia School of the Blind every week. They faced some pretty good teams.
As far as the individuals he faced, answering that would take far more research and effort than I'm willing to expend. Football was a job for me for a long time and now I'm a fat, happy fan who isn't going to break down film for a hobby.


As far as his draft slot, I don't have an opinion on that because I'm not a college football buff. I like the college game but I watch it for entertainment purposes only, and don't have time to watch more than a game or two a week.
Watching a game or two a week is a shitty way to evaluate and rank players wouldn't give you much data to work with.

That's why I don't get too excited about fan's perspectives of players. They don't have much data to work with and you've always got to question if they know what they're even looking for.

I don't mean that to sound condescending, but I suppose it will be interpreted that way.


Impossible  
speedywheels : 5/11/2014 10:40 am : link
We were told he was an "awful athlete" who was too fat and had lumpy calves...
RE: The only reason I can live with the Bromley pick is because  
BigBlueBuff : 5/11/2014 10:41 am : link
In comment 11671572 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
we also got Quarles. I will just consider Quarles as the 3rd rounder and Bromley as the FA. One of them hopefully will make an impact. Since both are now here, it really doesn't matter where how they were drafted.

This is precisely what is wrong with fans and the draft process. Quarles was passed over not once, but seven times by the professional coaches and scouts that make up the 32 best football teams in the world and yet you think you know so much more than them to claim that you can be happy because they signed him, and then have the stones to tell us that it makes up for the guy that was actually selected?

Get over yourself.
RE: I  
armsteadeatslittlekids : 5/11/2014 10:48 am : link
In comment 11671545 AcidTest said:
Quote:
am an SU alum, so I have a special interest in their football players. I also live just north of Baltimore, and SU is frequently on in this area. Bromley is a good player who really came on last year.

But I still think Reese reached for him in the third round. Fifth, maybe fourth, would have been fine, but there were still a lot of good football players on the board at #74, including DaQuan Jones of Penn State. I find it hard to believe that Bromley would not have been available in the fourth round.

Reese would get the benefit of the doubt if he had a better recent draft record, but he doesn't. He isn't Seattle. That doesn't mean that it's right to say he should be fired, but criticism of this pick as a reach is justified IMO until Bromley proves otherwise.

What this shows is that GMs can have vastly different opinions on players, and certainly have grades that are different than those assigned by fans or even professional draft gurus like Kiper and McShay.

Bromley is a Giant. I will root hard for him, as I'm sure everyone else will as well. He's a great kid.


Criticism of Reese's recent draft record and subsequently questioning whether the players from this class will turn out to be good pros...completely fair.

However the reach and "value" talk in general among fans will always be speculation until you somehow get everyother team's draft board. We all have a warped sense of what these guys are worth going into the draft because networks, draft website wannabe scouts/hacks, and a host of other amateurs tell us what they're worth. We spend hours gobbling that shit up and the last thing we want to admit is that it's mostly a complete waste of time.
Thought this post was gonna be about me. :/  
BrettNYG10 : 5/11/2014 10:51 am : link
Good posts, Dorgan.
RE: bill polian  
Cam in MO : 5/11/2014 10:51 am : link
In comment 11671490 blapre74 said:
Quote:
says if there is a guy u like, take him. dont worry about what the draftniks think. Im thrilled with the RB from BC, the Center, and Odell. :)


Exactly.

You know where a guy is "supposed" to be drafted?

Exactly where he is taken.


The pick of Bromley  
Doomster : 5/11/2014 11:08 am : link
is very similar to Austin......they are both reaches.....not saying Bromley is another Austin.....but he is a reach in this draft at that position.....

It's about time one of these "reaches" pays off.....I don't expect much from a rookie DT this year....it's next year I do....
Thanks for the Bromley Views  
Percy : 5/11/2014 11:12 am : link
I thought that the tapes presented as examples of "poor showings" by Bromley (to support the "bad pick" and "picked too high" criticisms) showed exactly the opposite. He is a tough, near-unstoppable SOB. I mean, how many guys can an O line double team? He looks like he will often be one who often has to be blocked that way. I think he will surprise, play and play well right away, and embarrass those who have said what piece of crap he is. Just my bet on Bromley -- which happens to be what the Giants think of him at this point, too.
Athletic Measurables and Potential v. Production  
clatterbuck : 5/11/2014 11:25 am : link
Reese has been criticized, maybe rightly so, for too much focus on measurables rather than actual on-the-field production. It worked out fine with JPP but not for the "JPP of tight ends" was well as others, e.g., Sintim, Barden. The emphasis seems to have shifted to kids who have been productive players. Will be interesting to see the results. Fwiw, I could care less if, for example, a kid like Bromley is picked in the 3rd or the 5th. Let's see of he's a player.
doomy, except and fwiw,  
Big Blue '56 : 5/11/2014 11:32 am : link
you never heard 'non stop motor' and 'never gives up on a play' in any description of Austin
an excerpt from a post by "Ross" on his thread today  
Big Blue '56 : 5/11/2014 11:35 am : link
Quote:
Anyway...a high school friend of mines father is a former employee of the Eagles. My buddy is a Giants fan (his dad grew up a Giants fan and later in life worked for Eagles) and each year I try and talk to him about the Giants draft and get some perspective from his dad..who is still connected to the Eagles in some capacity. I normally speak to him a few weeks after the draft, but this year it was last night. Here's some thoughts from his old man:

- Each year, teams think they found a few guys that are off the radar and can get them later in the draft for various reasons; Injury, small schools, overshadowed etc.. This year, one of those guys was Bromley. Said he there was a buzz about him in recent weeks and thought he would get drafted earlier that the so called draft experts projected. He's a "sleeper" and thought many teams wanted him. He said that he is the type of guy that no one talks about as so many teams are interested and they hope he slips. He said no one will work harder than him and Giants got a really good player. Said he was a sure 3rd round pick in his mind and also used the Chris Canty comparison as player type. Thought the Steelers or Bears would grab him in the 3rd which means that he didn't think it was a reach at all.
First  
SBlue46 : 5/11/2014 11:42 am : link
If Reese takes Brom
In 3rd when there were
Beter graded players
Available in all positions
He really put his ass on the
Line.It changed our whole
Draft. He Also took a few
Reaches later which is
Better to do then. This
Pick has to pan out for
Reese to redeem himself.
Didn't see this thread. I'm going to parrot what I wrote in another..  
Canton : 5/11/2014 11:44 am : link
The lights came on his senior year. He plays with an absolute mean streak. A high character guy that just wants it. He showed a little bit more explosiveness this year. He has a motor, and he chased guys down from behind for such a bigger guy.

I think he's going to steadily improve with each season. Especially under our conditioning program. He definitely can put on some more muscle.I see him at 315-320 pounds.

I don't know about you guys but he reminded of Fred Robbins when we had him in 2004. I truly believe Bromley is going to be a solid pro for us.
Eric  
bc4life : 5/11/2014 11:45 am : link
He didn't look good in those cutups - how many times was he playing on their side of the ball? You might want to go back and re-watch those clips. He needs to be coached up some things, but, taking him where they did doesn't really upset me.

Canton  
bc4life : 5/11/2014 11:47 am : link
The light coming on his senior year is important - he was behind in his development.
Second  
SBlue46 : 5/11/2014 11:50 am : link
After watching tapes on Brom
He is not fat and could put
On 10-20lbs muscle and will.
NIX the guy I wanted
Is over weight and knee
Injury. On tape he looked
Better than Joseph and was
Pretty fast chassing qb and
Rb..Doesn't quit on plays and
Jumps up and down after plays.
Most DT I see are tired by halftime.
After some weights I see a monster
All the projections are just that until they happen.  
arcarsenal : 5/11/2014 11:51 am : link
There's no such thing as an NFL draft where each player is selected right where he was slotted. You'd hope people would understand that by now, but of course you're always going to get people who assume "Jerry Reach" is taking a guy 2 rounds too early because Mel Kiper or Mike Mayock didn't envision the player being selected there.

There are well over 200 players selected in these drafts. It is impossible to correctly determine when and where each one should go.
RE: Second  
arcarsenal : 5/11/2014 11:52 am : link
In comment 11671678 SBlue46 said:
Quote:
After watching tapes on Brom
He is not fat and could put
On 10-20lbs muscle and will.
NIX the guy I wanted
Is over weight and knee
Injury. On tape he looked
Better than Joseph and was
Pretty fast chassing qb and
Rb..Doesn't quit on plays and
Jumps up and down after plays.

Most DT I see are tired by halftime.
After some weights I see a monster


Also.. I think pro scouting is definitely in bossman's future.
Canty was  
SBlue46 : 5/11/2014 11:56 am : link
An underachiever. Never reached his hype..
Also a lot bigger ..dont see
comparison.
RE: The pick of Bromley  
TMS : 5/11/2014 12:01 pm : link
In comment 11671630 Doomster said:
Quote:
is very similar to Austin......they are both reaches.....not saying Bromley is another Austin.....but he is a reach in this draft at that position.....

It's about time one of these "reaches" pays off.....I don't expect much from a rookie DT this year....it's next year I do....
Agree a player who has his numbers and exposure who is not invited to the combine or rated anywhere near where he is drafted is a REACH by the team that drafts him. Reese has a lot to prove because his reaches have busted before. Thats why we are in the hole we are. Hope he works out but after every draft we fans hope for the best and do not like naysayers. Do it on the field and you will get the credit you deserve one way or the other.
This is directed primarily to Dorgon and BB56  
vince : 5/11/2014 12:09 pm : link
I'm a real, real old Person who is also a fat happy Giant fan. I've watched the Giants for many years and I'm amazed that some of the fans can give the year. date, time and participants of plays seemingly off the tops of their respective heads.
Yeah, I saw Tarkington run around, Homer Jones catch catch a football by the backend as it was going in front of him, Pisarcik/Csonka infamous handoff. And many isolated "great" plays in both the good and bad connotation. AND so many " Come from ahead Defeats"

But I find it difficult to "evaluate" a given circumstance. For example, Bromely. I watched his highlights. I saw him getting stood up most of the time and I thought "This is a great pick?" and I worried about it. Then today Dorgon, Bless his pot belly, made the statement , Which I will misquote no doubt but it was to the effect that if Bromely could beat the double team FIFTEEN PERCENT OF THE TIME he was doing well and if he could get a wash another FIFTEEN PERCENT and raise the two to THIRTY PERCENT HE WAS DOING GREAT or some such words.

Well here I am thinking the beating the double team should be in the vicinity of 40-50 % . Bromely would have never stood a chance of being in my good graces.

Now where else should I to colored "Dumb" because of my ignorance and misconceptions.

I have watched TWO football games live in my life. Both were at Orchard park in Buffalo. I disremember who the Bills were playing the first time. The game is totally gone from my memory but the second game the Bills played the jets and by then I was a "Veteran" I saw plays develop on the side away from the ball. I could see how the "outfield" aligned and changed with each play and within each play.

It beat television seven ways to Sunday as the saying goes.....and my daughter and my son-in-law literally raked me over the coals.....but with respect because There was always "Wide Right". Of course I would have had an elaborate funeral but to be buried in "Buffalo?" Yeecch.

I stray from my original premise which to thank both the above for their straightforward analysis. To Dorgon for occasionally pointing out the basics in evaluating a play, player or a scheme. and to "Doc" BB56 for some clear thinking. I wish I could do that without getting my BP up.

BB56 I used to detail for Alcon in the 50' and 60's Would have loved to talk Giants .. I would have learned a lot I'm sure.

Dorgon, I'm a manhattanite from the upper east side in the late 30's and early 40'....BAsketball, baseball, stickball or handball. Football?....Waazat?

Again Gentlemen ..thank you

RE: Canton  
Canton : 5/11/2014 12:18 pm : link
In comment 11671673 bc4life said:
Quote:
The light coming on his senior year is important - he was behind in his development.


Thus why the draft "experts" saw him as a late pick. I believe he has a higher ceiling then some would expect.
RE: All the projections are just that until they happen.  
KeoweeFan : 5/11/2014 12:27 pm : link
In comment 11671679 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
There's no such thing as an NFL draft where each player is selected right where he was slotted. You'd hope people would understand that by now, but of course you're always going to get people who assume "Jerry Reach" is taking a guy 2 rounds too early because Mel Kiper or Mike Mayock didn't envision the player being selected there.

There are well over 200 players selected in these drafts. It is impossible to correctly determine when and where each one should go.

AGREED! I don't get the meaning of the term "reach" - "reach" with respect to what? Your favorite player from your favorite college team? Mel Kiper's opinion?
The draft is NOT a relative exercise. Jerry said his objective was to get 7 good football players. He did. 'Nuff said.
Joey is one of BBIs most knowledgeable posters and he's n  
chris r : 5/11/2014 12:33 pm : link
not fine with it. Sy also I believe was not a fan of the pick.

But, nevertheless, I thought we're supposed to just withhold judgement for a few years and trust the professions?

RE: The pick of Bromley  
Klaatu : 5/11/2014 12:35 pm : link
In comment 11671630 Doomster said:
Quote:
is very similar to Austin......they are both reaches.....not saying Bromley is another Austin.....but he is a reach in this draft at that position.....

It's about time one of these "reaches" pays off.....I don't expect much from a rookie DT this year....it's next year I do....


You couldn't be more wrong.

Wait...I take that back. YOU actually COULD be more wrong.
I think the Giants put their own value on players  
#10* : 5/11/2014 12:39 pm : link
Not what other people value but what they value. Therefore when other teams or draft guides have a sixth round grade on a player the Giants might have him ranked in the 4th row as Jerry puts it because of team preference. The players interview, clean sheet, charisma etc might place added value in the eye of the beholder. Draft mags can't put that into their evaluation. They base their evaluation on consensus talent.

I think overall the consensus here is that the process of evaluating players might be broken somewhere if your only averaging one player being on the team (usually 1st rounder) from each draft. *We have five players left from 2004 to 2010 on this roster. So they probably felt they needed to make a change. Thus all team captains this year.
You can't  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/11/2014 12:41 pm : link
judge a guy off of two games and Bromley did "flash" in those tapes. But I saw a guy single-blocked a lot and pushed around quite a bit. I also didn't see the constant non-stop motor that some have written about. (In fact, I saw some plays where he just stopped). It's tough to tell with a DT. If you have a big guy who isn't part of a rotation, he has to pick his spots. You just get tired and wear out.

I don't see him as a "fat" player like Joey says...I'm not sure where he is getting that. I'd just like to see him be more stout at the point-of-attack.

It's hard to tell...two tapes...they showed a lot of snaps, but not all. And he did flash on some plays with plays in the backfield. At the pro level, that's the norm for a really good DT, but when you are talking about a high draft pick in the college game, I think you want to see more against a team like Minnesota.

That all said, I'm encouraged by Ross' post above.

And I know it's old-fashioned stupid on my part...but if Clemson is killing you 35-14 in the first half and inside the red zone again...don't celebrate a big play like you just won the game.
He will get three years  
spike : 5/11/2014 12:49 pm : link
and plenty of opportunities to prove his abilities playing next to Hankins.

Jenkins and Patterson won't be on the team for much longer, so plenty of snaps for this guy
I trust Dorgan's posts  
Sneakers O'toole : 5/11/2014 12:51 pm : link
I think we might have a prospect here.
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