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Cruz on the outside

muhajir : 5/16/2014 10:27 pm
If Jernigan's emergence late in the season was a sign of more to come and Randle doesn't take the next step, I would love to see Cruz moved to the outside and Jernigan moved to the slot.

During the Q and A session after Beckham was drafted, Reese stated Cruz would be in the slot and couldn't play on the outside. I disagree. Cruz's first start vs the Eagles comes to mind where he abused Nmandi all game playing on the outside.

Cruz'S strength, shifteness, and speed make him a dangerous receiver anywhere he lines up on the field.

We could potentially have a great wr tandem on the outside with Beckham and Cruz, with speedy Jernigan working the slot, with Randle sprinkled in as well.

Under Gilbride, Cruz was so affective because of the option routes he ran in the slot. According to what we've been hearing though, the new offense will have the wrs running more defined routes, which may diminish Cruz's play making potential in the slot. Someone as fast and slippery as Jernigan may flourish when told what specific routes to run and told to just go full speed.
Cruz  
Rflairr : 5/16/2014 10:34 pm : link
is a beast out of the slot. Makes no sense to move him outside. You draft a Beckham and sign a Manningham. So he can continue to be the playmaker he is out of the slot.
I didn't like Reese's response to that question  
robbieballs2003 : 5/16/2014 10:36 pm : link
Why did he not answer it like every other question when he says, "That is the coach's job to play them where they feel they will help the team."

Cruz absolutely can play on the outside. Obviously he has shown to be a tremendous slot receiver but that doesn't mean he cannot play outside. What I expect to see is McAdoo line our players up all over the field. I think we are going to line up Cruz in the backfield on some plays, in the slot, outside, etc. We will motion to get these players freed up. I think he is going to do what is best to create the best match ups as well as make teams prepare for a bunch of different formations.
If it means Jernigan  
pjcas18 : 5/16/2014 10:37 pm : link
and Cruz can be on the field together it sounds harder to defend in my non-expert opinion. They're both slippery and good in short space

Let's hope Eli  
CT Charlie : 5/16/2014 10:38 pm : link
improves on the short, quick bullet OR touch passes.
affective?  
knicks3031 : 5/16/2014 10:43 pm : link
But really, you disagree with the GM of the team and think Cruz shouldn't play the slot, where he is at his best? It would be a disappointment if Randle doesn't have a good year, but until there's evidence that he can't handle playing outside, I don't see them moving Cruz out there instead of him
RE: Cruz  
chris r : 5/16/2014 10:47 pm : link
In comment 11683286 Rflairr said:
Quote:
is a beast out of the slot. Makes no sense to move him outside. You draft a Beckham and sign a Manningham. So he can continue to be the playmaker he is out of the slot.


This
You dont move a player AWAY  
Blue Blood : 5/16/2014 10:48 pm : link
from his greatest strength... Cruz is best in the slot..
RE: affective?  
robbieballs2003 : 5/16/2014 10:49 pm : link
In comment 11683299 knicks3031 said:
Quote:
But really, you disagree with the GM of the team and think Cruz shouldn't play the slot, where he is at his best? It would be a disappointment if Randle doesn't have a good year, but until there's evidence that he can't handle playing outside, I don't see them moving Cruz out there instead of him


Nobody is saying he shouldn't be a slot receiver. Nobody is saying he should play on the outside full time. Yes, it would be nice if Randle steps up as well as Manningham but it would also be nice if Jernigan steps up. In the past we had strict roles for our WRs. In this offense I envision a lot of movement and lining up all over the field. We also almost never went to 4 WR sets in the past with Gilbride. If Randle, Beckham and Manningham step up two of them can line up wide on the line of scrimmage and Cruz and Jernigan can line up in the slot. It is possible to have two slot receivers.

Finally, the Eagles just drafted Jordan Matthews. Chip Kelly already said that Matthews will play the slot with Maclin and Cooper on the outside. Why would he have Maclin out wide and Matthews in the slot? If provides them advantages with the offense they run. The same can happen with our offense. I am not saying we are running the same offense of a similar offense. I am just saying each has benefits. There is no reason to label Cruz as strictly a slot receiver.
Funny thing  
pjcas18 : 5/16/2014 10:56 pm : link
is in GB they had this similar conversation about Randall Cobb.

I don't think anyone is saying move Cruz out of the slot on every play, only move him outside occasionally.
Nobody  
PaulN : 5/16/2014 10:59 pm : link
Said he wouldn't be moved outside occasionally, but this, like most of these, "I should be the coach" nonsense, is just that, nonsense. Watch the games, that is what our role is.
Robbie, I agree  
knicks3031 : 5/16/2014 11:00 pm : link
I think he'll be out there occasionally, like you said. I was saying what I took from the OP is that it seemed like he wants Cruz to line up out there definitively. I just don't think that makes sense given that he is at his best in the slot
RE: Funny thing  
Blue Blood : 5/16/2014 11:02 pm : link
In comment 11683314 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
is in GB they had this similar conversation about Randall Cobb.

I don't think anyone is saying move Cruz out of the slot on every play, only move him outside occasionally.


which I expect him to do..
To clarify..  
muhajir : 5/16/2014 11:11 pm : link
Best case scenario is Randle emerges and he plays outside opposite Beckham and Cruz stays in the slot. However, under the circumstance that Randle stinks up the joint early in the season, that's when I propose the above idea.
Cruz is a beast period, lined up inside or out. I don't think Jernigan can consistently play outside though so this is more about getting all the playmakers on the field.

Robbie, definitely a great idea moving all of them around. But under my 'plan B' scenario, Cruz would be primarily lined up outside while moving in on some packages as opposed to primarily being inside and lining outside in some packages.

One last point, Jernigan was drafted the offseason that we lost Smith to fill his role. He's a slot guy and may not be fully utilized on the outside (of course projecting.)
does Reese  
Hades07 : 5/16/2014 11:21 pm : link
really believe that Cruz CAN'T play on the outside?
RE: does Reese  
robbieballs2003 : 5/16/2014 11:30 pm : link
In comment 11683329 Hades07 said:
Quote:
really believe that Cruz CAN'T play on the outside?


Who knows? He did say that though which was surprising. When have you ever heard him say a player can't do something? It was just very odd.
In that Eagles game wasn't Cruz in the slot  
Mason : 5/16/2014 11:52 pm : link
He seems to excel when he has outside threats. Vertical and possession receiver.
I want to say in that game the Giants were  
BSIMatt : 5/17/2014 12:01 am : link
throwing out of run looks/2wr sets actually. That was one of Gilbrides best gameplans. Again though, its one game, vs the majority of his career doing 80% or more of his damage inside(guessing at the numbers here, but he evolved into that role over time). There has been games where has had real trouble(comparitively) outside when compared to his near dominance inside.
I think  
SHO'NUFF : 5/17/2014 12:53 am : link
Victor Cruz can play wherever the fuck he wants.
just finished a game of madden  
WeekendLife56 : 5/17/2014 3:25 am : link
Beat the eagles 91-10

Cruz on the outside

27-424. 9 TDs

Just saying
Jernigan is the back u p slot  
UberAlias : 5/17/2014 5:24 am : link
More likely to see Randle develop and on the field than Jernigan. Raindle may be the guy who benefits.most from the coaching change.
And Manningham  
UberAlias : 5/17/2014 5:28 am : link
This is a go out and beat your guy offense. Not as many reads. Randle and Manningham will benefit from this change.
Looking in?  
BlueLou : 5/17/2014 6:07 am : link
.
Why would you move a player off  
Modus Operandi : 5/17/2014 6:18 am : link
His greatest strength? In the slot, he threatens side to side and vertically. Playing on the outside introduces the sideline ,which then makes Cruz easier to defend.

Simply answer to a simply question. No. Keep Cruz where he's most dynamic.
RE: You dont move a player AWAY  
mattlawson : 5/17/2014 7:26 am : link
In comment 11683305 Blue Blood said:
Quote:
from his greatest strength... Cruz is best in the slot..



That's just what they'll expect us to do
You're wrong on so many points  
RetroJint : 5/17/2014 7:48 am : link
First of all, option routes are integral to WCO's. More so than the vertical offenses. It's true Gilbride placed his own imprimatur on Coughlin's offense by allowing the receiver to adjust his route to what the defense showed, but in so doing Kevin was incorporating a WCO technique. What the Seahawks DBs have done is prove there are no defined routes.

2. Victor Cruz is not fast. Signature long catch & run TD: Cowboys last game of '11. Eli runs almost a veer left while Cruz hooks & goes on Newman, who is too slow to play press man. There's no S because the Giants correctly read Ryan's pressure. Victor takes it to the house but he's running against a slow secondary. He gets deep but he does so by deception and quickness. Outside his skill set is limited. Inside his patented change of direction, spinning off his inside ankle to uncover in the middle of the field makes him a devastating chain mover. He also needs to catch, get what he can , and then sit down under the big hits. He isn't a terribly physical guy. The sideline jump ball that Eli threw him against the Hawks, he was virtually impaled. It was his last play of the season. A true outside receiver would have been better suited. Randle hasn't shown any inclination to stick his nose in there. I don't see him as a viable solution.

3. Cruz is not an accomplished blocker. The Eagles have Maclin & Cooper, a Plaxico clone, wide because Chinless Chip wants his wide receivers to dominate DBs in their 2-man read game. Both those guys block. . Victor wide gives you none of that. Coughlin still wants to run the ball. That 3.5 average per carry must make him sick .
All this excitement  
Doomster : 5/17/2014 8:50 am : link
about Jernigan, who played in games that teams were just going through the motions...
I'm not advocating the move, but...  
fkap : 5/17/2014 9:54 am : link
sometimes moving a player out of his best position is a logical move. Prime example is when we moved Rolle to CB (because of all the injuries to CB) because it was better to have an adequate CB and an adequate safety rather than a sucky CB and a good safety. We've shuffled around the OL and the DL all the while using the same logic.

IF Cruz is better than any other option on the outside, and IF JJ can handle slot, it might make sense. That's where it's the coaches job to figure out if it does make sense. The notion itself is not illogical.

Besides, is Cruz all that stellar in the slot when the outside receiver is meh (such as the past two years)?
Might be as simple as this...  
Jimmy Googs : 5/17/2014 10:03 am : link
Cruz(slot) + Randle (o/s) > Jernigan (slot) + Cruz (o/s).

But it will be interesting to see what happens with Jernigan this year. I think we all would like to see this guy on the field more than just as an injury replacement or the occasional 3rd down.

RE: You're wrong on so many points  
shabu : 5/17/2014 10:32 am : link
In comment 11683396 RetroJint said:
Quote:
First of all, option routes are integral to WCO's. More so than the vertical offenses. It's true Gilbride placed his own imprimatur on Coughlin's offense by allowing the receiver to adjust his route to what the defense showed, but in so doing Kevin was incorporating a WCO technique. What the Seahawks DBs have done is prove there are no defined routes.

2. Victor Cruz is not fast. Signature long catch & run TD: Cowboys last game of '11. Eli runs almost a veer left while Cruz hooks & goes on Newman, who is too slow to play press man. There's no S because the Giants correctly read Ryan's pressure. Victor takes it to the house but he's running against a slow secondary. He gets deep but he does so by deception and quickness. Outside his skill set is limited. Inside his patented change of direction, spinning off his inside ankle to uncover in the middle of the field makes him a devastating chain mover. He also needs to catch, get what he can , and then sit down under the big hits. He isn't a terribly physical guy. The sideline jump ball that Eli threw him against the Hawks, he was virtually impaled. It was his last play of the season. A true outside receiver would have been better suited. Randle hasn't shown any inclination to stick his nose in there. I don't see him as a viable solution.

3. Cruz is not an accomplished blocker. The Eagles have Maclin & Cooper, a Plaxico clone, wide because Chinless Chip wants his wide receivers to dominate DBs in their 2-man read game. Both those guys block. . Victor wide gives you none of that. Coughlin still wants to run the ball. That 3.5 average per carry must make him sick .


Gilbride was a run and shoot guy not a wco guy.
RetroJint  
muhajir : 5/17/2014 10:39 am : link
Here's Cruz's early impressions of the new offense

Quote:
As far as this offense is concerned, its a lot more of your route is your route, said Cruz, who caught 73 passes for 998 yards and four touchdowns last season. You can dictate that off the coverage and you know what you have and Eli can find you within those different holes.

Its a lot less dependent on what my body language is and Eli reading that. Its more so him reading the coverage and finding me in those open holes.

Another difference in the offense, said Cruz, is where hell be lined up. Almost exclusively a slot receiver in the past, Cruz said hell be lined up outside at times in the new scheme.

I feel like Im a guy who can play inside (or) outside, can play both positions very well, Cruz said. I think thats where Im going to be utilized, kind of all over the field, wherever I can get the ball the most, wherever I can help this team.


I interpret that to mean less option routes.. not more.

Disagree with Cruz not being fast. He's not a deshan Jackson but we've seen him catch more than enough 60 and 70+ plus yard tds with no one catching him from behind to know how fast he is. He's faster then Nicks for sure at least who was o/s.
link - ( New Window )
Lets see what Cruz can and cant do.  
AnishPatel : 5/17/2014 12:11 pm : link
Again, new system. So good and bad gets erased and everyone has a cleanslate. So if you fucked up in the old system , cleanslate now. If you didvery well in the past system. Great, but clean slate.

So let's see what Cruz can and can't do now. He was a beast in the slot can he do that again in this system? How about coming off an injury? Will he be top 3 in drops again? He was prior to this offenses shit show season where he was #2 in drops. So even Cruz has things to prove. Will he be productive
again? I am very interested to see.

Beckham was drafted  
TMS : 5/17/2014 1:56 pm : link
to replace Nicks who played outside. But nothing is written in stone and could change. The decision where they play will be TCs decision not Reese's anyway.
knicks  
blapre74 : 5/17/2014 2:03 pm : link
good point. do we really need a thread to discuss this nonsense? Cruz is the best slot receiver in the NFL. OBJ was drafted to play outside. He's more Effective. lol
who knows?  
giantfanboy : 5/17/2014 2:37 pm : link
we have a new OC
i hope 3 things will happen

more 4 receiver sets especially in early downs

more uptempo attack offense

get eli up to the line with 20 seconds left on the clock and let him do his magic
like Peyton does
I am rooting for both Randle and Jernigan  
BSIMatt : 5/17/2014 3:23 pm : link
but what I find a bit contradictive is the comment about replacing a second year wr continuing to struggle(who led the team in touchdowns btw), with sudden faith in a third year wr who had a totaled 22 yards receiving his first two years, and really basing this on two games to end the year. We had to wait till the end of his third season for any sign of life from Jernigan, and we are ready to give up on Randle who at least put up 900 yards and 9 tds through his first two seasons?
If - If - If -  
Blackbeard : 5/17/2014 5:08 pm : link
If Randle, Manningham and Jernigan all show up to play on game days our offense will be Ah-sum. If the OL shows up to protect Eli and to open holes for a tough running game.

All those IFS add up.

Maybe The Giants will make the playoffs.
It's more easy to play the slot  
tomjgiant : 5/17/2014 8:27 pm : link
than the outside .You are not facing the top cornerbacks,so put your best receivers in the game. Cruz can play out or in,if Randle is out Cruz is in,if Cruz is out Jernigan is in.
Hey, Cruz is a great reciever,wherever he is ,as long as we have the other pieces he is going to make plays.
Cut Jerrigan and give the back up slot to Holliday  
old timer : 5/17/2014 9:00 pm : link
Jerrigan won't get off the bench this years if receivers stay healthy. Holliday plays more positions and has more potential.
Holliday ??  
Blue Blood : 5/17/2014 9:02 pm : link
really.. all 5'5 and 170 lbs of him..
tomjgiant  
BSIMatt : 5/17/2014 10:11 pm : link
nails it.
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