The topic provokes a qualifier: There will never be a dominant coach in the sense that Lombardi, Brown, Landry or Walsh dominated. Free agency, strength of schedule, increased competition, the fragility of the modern athlete and technological evolution and a league commited to parity all mean that the definition of dominance is diminished.
It's easy to look at the superbowls of Belechek and the innovations he's broght to the game and conclude that he's the man for the 21st century. Tom Coughlin is not as flashy, not as dramatic but I think he's right there.
Belecek's had Brady. And not only that but he's had Brady at a small purchase price and at a lower cost in the Fixed and finite operating budget. That's an enormous advantage. Belecek has had a weaker division and an easier road to the playoffs and , in his wins, wearker compeition for the big game. Figure Brady for at least one more win per year, figure the weaker division for one or two more wins. Add those wins on to the regular season totals and the biggest arguement for BB springs leaks.
Belechek hasn't won in a decade and all those wins (by only three points average) are significantly tainted by the filming scandal. The impact of that scandal and the downplaying of it to forgotten insignificance is a masterpice of corporate Public relations.
The Eagles walked off the field statiing "it's as if they knew our plays". That was in real time, before the taping was revealed. The leagues desperate attempts to downplay the significance of the taping can not be ignored and I am confortable with the fact that our guy would not have stooped to such means.
Brees, Peyton, Rogers have one superbowl ring each, Brady has none for the decade Eli, a fine but lesser qB, has two. In this era where the QB is dominant that 's a testimony to superb coaching.
It's a moot question really. The point is Belechek or Coughlin, both franchises have been blessed and we ought to stop the critical nitpicking and enjoy the superb coaching and character of a man we've been lucky to have and to enjoy. It's not going to last forever and when he's gone he will be appreciated and identified as the face of this historic franchise.
And *Belichick is a better coach than Coughlin. I like TC, but Belichick is probably one of the top three coaches in the history of the game.
And *Belichick is a better coach than Coughlin. I like TC, but Belichick is probably one of the top three coaches in the history of the game.
THIS
Belichick has warts. One more super bowl victory and TC's resume is at least as impressive.
Then the best coach of this era is neither Coughlin or Belichick.
For the record that is not my view, I believe Belichick is the best coach of this era, Coughlin is probably 2nd, but neither's career is over.
Where Belichick has outclassed people like Lombardi, Jimmy Johnson & Lombardi ( but not Parcells, forever his superior), is as a GM even if it is title without portfolio. Lombardi tried it & hated it. Johnson was terrible at it. It was his scouts and the extensive grapevine that Haircut had with collegiate assistants that properly informed his management decisions with the Cowboys. But such is to digress. Coughlin has been the best.
If you're basically going to disregard or spin away everything outside of two improbable SB wins to claim this nonsense, realize trying to claim Coughlin getting bonus points for winning with the "lesser" Manning is idiotic based on the performances in your own deluded sample size.
And, RetroJint, part of it is Brady being better than Eli, but part of it is Bellichick just being a better coach. In 10 years here Coughlin has had one year where his team played consistently well, 2008. To me, consistency is the hallmark of a great coach. It is not about winning and losing so much as it is about getting the best out of your players. If you play consistently it shows that. the same team that went on a six week magical run, lost the week before to the Redskins at home. The 07 team did not show up to play against the Vikings. The difference between the Monday night Redskins victory and the next week against Carolina in 09. If you are talking about the best coach of his era, those results, the inconsistency, should not exist. It doesn't mean he is not a good coach, but we are talking about the best of his era now.
They won 11 games with Matt Cassel at the helm
But Belichick is better. He has done the same thing that TC has done but is a far more consistent winner. Belichick has a great ability to get the most out of his players abilities...moreso than any other coach today. And it isn't just having Brady around because defensively and specials have also been very solid.
Belichek is the best coach of this era ...period. The overall reocords speak for themselves.
If you look at any coach in the history of the game and dissect, you can always find warts. In the end, nothing comes easy in the NFL regardless of the division. The hardest thing to do is to win consistently in the league due to the parity and structure of the league.
Coughlin is very good but other than the 2 SBs there have been several mediocre seasons. Belichek has just been too consistent and appearance in 5 SBs is a great accomplishment. The 2 he lost he lost on final drives with some great play (improbable even). Otherwise he has 5 SB wins.
You can't take anything away from Belichek.
He has great drafts like 2010 (which looked better a year ago) with guys like Gronk, Hernandez, Spikes, McCourty, etc.
but he has a VERY spotty draft track record and his continual trade-down approach for "value-based" drafting is akin to trading a horse for two ponies (if you get the analogy), so some argue, you have Ron Brace and Darius Butler but you could have had Clay Matthews. (second guessing with the draft is easy and that's a cherry-picked example, but the point remains).
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They won 11 games with Matt Cassel at the helm
AFC EAst has been a pathetic division, unlike NFC East
I've argued on other threads that you could make a very strong case that *AFTER* Belichick, TC is the best HC of this era. Only Shanahan is close to TC right now, and Coughlin has an opportunity to put more distance between them.
The best is BB and its not close.
For one thing you are not considering the fact that the Patriots contribute to the AFC East poor records.
and second, the difference is probably negligible when you look at both the Patriots out of division and out of conference record and the rest of the AFC east out of division and out of conference record.
Here are the historical division ratings by impartial, scientifically generated - Jeff Sagarin from USA Today for 2008 - 2013
2013: AFC East: 4th NFC East: 5th
2012: AFC East: 6th, NFC East: 5th
2011: won't come up for some reason
2010: AFC East: 1st NFC East: 4th
2009: AFC East: 1st NFC East: 4th
2008: AFC East: 5th NFC East: 1st
before that are only the season starting ratings
Sagarin ratings - ( New Window )
Went and took an expansion team to the AFC Championship game... twice.
Went and took a team in turmoil to SB championships... twice.
Belichick? Failed with the Browns. Um, can't really say his tenure as HC of the NYJ was too fantastic.
Yes, he's been successful.. to say that least... with TB and the Pats. But TC certainly could make a good argument that he is the more successful HC overall.
BTW... play with the numbers all you want. Bills x 2, Dolphins x 2, Jets x 2 vs Redskins x 2, Eagles x 2 and Cowboys x 2....
BB teams are always prepared to play their next opponent....can we say the same thing for TC's teams? How many times does this board complain that it looks like the Giants didn't show up for a game?
TC has been one of the best coaches the Giants ever had.....but THE best of his era? No.....
The Cowboys have won one playoff game since 1996. and that was against the Eagles 5 years ago.
The Redskins have won one playoff game since 1999 and that was 9 years go.
The Eagles have had some success, but none in the last 5 years.
The Jets have been to the AFC Championship game twice in the last 5 years. and even outside those back to back AFCCG appearances, have had more playoff success than the Cowboys or Redskins in Belichick's and Coughlin's current tenures.
The Dolphins have had less success (just one playoff appearance in this time) and the Bills have been a disaster, but overall the conferences are similar other than the NFC East hasn't had a dominant team like the Patriots.
This is not the NFC East of the 80's/early 90's
As regards Eli and playing well. Yes, Eli played brilliantly in both those runs, that's not the point. Generally speaking the argument is made that TC has not won as many games during the season as BB. The point was, and you can disagree with this if you want, Brady is worth a game or two per season. He is the better QB and gaining him was pure luck and not calculating reason on BB's part.
I also don't know why that writer was so threatened that he had to personalize.
The arguement too that seems to say superbowls don't count, has never made sense. sounds like its' proponents woould be happier being Eagles fans who dominanted during the season but don't have a ring to show for it.
My macro point is not to get engaged somuch as in who is better as to bring home the message that we've been blessed and until you fairly examine it the assumption that BB is in another class doesn't stand up.
As regards Eli and playing well. Yes, Eli played brilliantly in both those runs, that's not the point. Generally speaking the argument is made that TC has not won as many games during the season as BB. The point was, and you can disagree with this if you want, Brady is worth a game or two per season. He is the better QB and gaining him was pure luck and not calculating reason on BB's part.
I also don't know why that writer was so threatened that he had to personalize.
The arguement too that seems to say superbowls don't count, has never made sense. sounds like its' proponents woould be happier being Eagles fans who dominanted during the season but don't have a ring to show for it.
My macro point is not to get engaged somuch as in who is better as to bring home the message that we've been blessed and until you fairly examine it the assumption that BB is in another class doesn't stand up. TC had won two superbowls in this decade, BB hasn't won one, BB has never won without a cheating advantage, BB has had the better QB and that's a product of luck not brains. Twitter and jitter, dems are the facts.
Eli didn't play like a lesser QB in either run -- he played better than QBs definitively better than he is (or was). His play is a huge reason, especially in 2011, TC has two rings and you even try to make this silly claim.
Your logic isn't really uncommon though, unfortunately. Eli and his inconsistencies, especially his recent tumble pretty much entirely wiping away any elite claim and his own HoF case, is the absolute best thing to ever happen to how Coughlin will ultimately be viewed by most. Good enough to get him the two rings in those runs to give him a HOF case in the first place, all over the place enough otherwise to fudge the narrative and mistakenly award "bonus points" for somehow winning with him and provide a softening of all the collapses/inconsistencies his teams (here) have had outside of them. Best of both ends.
Ignoring all of his success since and using Spygate to diminish what he's done is just insane.
He's the best coach of his era and pretending he isn't and TC is is pure homerism. Heck why not throw Tomlin in there as well. He's had just as much success. You can make just as much of an arguement for him.
People love to pretend they aren't biased and usually just prove the opposite.
But Coughlin can only coach the players they give him. Most people, including the team president, thought that the most important off-season goal was to improve pass protection for the hub of the team, Eli. That meant adding two quality linemen through free agency or the draft. And cap space was not even a problem his year.
Yet management managed not to add one good offensive tackle to the roster through free agency or the draft,
What if Belichik had inherited the Giants' head coach position from Parcells, as many thought would happen?
The fact that Coughlin has lasted this long is a testament to the SB runs and not his ability to consistently put out a good product. Each Super Bowl gave him a five year lease on life although the meltdowns between the two tested this and the owners were very patient. I was ready to say good bye after he lost the team after the Miracle in the Meadowlands. I'm glad he stayed but let's not get crazy about how good his teams are. He is so far from Belichik, Parcells, Walsh, etc. I'm surprised even a homer can't see that. Just look at the regular season record, the lack of playoff appearances the last five years, no playoff wins in 8 of 10 seasons, second half of the season meltdowns, this is an easy call.
Belichik can win without a lot of talent around Brady and has proven it. His teams on both sides of the ball consistently overachieve which is a testament to good coaching. His teams win 11-13 games a year and DOMINATE the NFC so it's not even worth mentioning strength of schedule. They have been so good for so long against all competition. This is an open and shut case. Again, surprised this would even be debated.
That point is so important it could put TC on par with Lombardi and they both have very similar coaching styles and similar character traits.
No matter how you see it, TC is by far one of the best coaches the NFL has ever seen and we are incredibly lucky to have him.
for his 5 rings, 3 as a HC, and 2 as a DC.
That point is so important it could put TC on par with Lombardi and they both have very similar coaching styles and similar character traits.
No matter how you see it, TC is by far one of the best coaches the NFL has ever seen and we are incredibly lucky to have him.
How does not winning a playoff game in 8 of 10 years remotely qualify as "dominating" the NFL.
I can't believe I have to repeat this EVERY TIME an idiot like you qualifies Belichick's accomplishments due to his division-- but here it goes one more time.
2002 - 2012
Overall: 147-45, .766
AFC East: 57-15, 0.792
AFCNonEast: 51-21, 0.708
NFC: 39-9, .813 [35-5 from 2002-2011!!]
Breakdown by season
2013:
Overall: 12-4
AFC East: 4-2
AFCnonEast: 5-1
NFC: 3-1
2012
Overall: 12-4
AFCEast: 6-0
AFCnonEast: 5-1
NFC: 1-3
2011
Overall: 13-3
AFCEast: 5-1
AFCNonEast: 5-1
NFC: 3-1
2010
Overall: 14-2
AFCEast: 5-1
AFCNonEast: 5-1
NFC: 4-0
2009
Overall: 10-6
AFCeast: 4-2
AFCNonEast: 3-3
NFC: 3-1
2008: with Cassell
Overall: 11-5
AFCEast: 4-2
AFCNonEast: 3-3
NFC: 4-0
2007:
Overall: 16-0
AFCEast: 6-0
AFCNonEast: 6-0
NFC: 4-0
2006:
Overall: 12-4
AFCEast: 4-2
AFCNonEast: 4-2
NFC: 4-0
2005:
Overall: 10-6
AFCEast: 5-1
AFCNonEast: 2-4
NFC: 3-1
2004
Overall: 14-2
AFC East: 5-1
AFCNonEast: 5-1
NFC: 4-0
2003:
Overall: 14-2
AFCEast: 5-1
AFCNonEast: 6-0
NFC: 3-1
2002:
Overall: 9-7
AFCEast: 4-2
AFCNonEast: 2-4
NFC: 3-1
The Patriots played the NFC East in 2003, 2007, and 2011 and they went 10-2.
The Patriots have destroyed the NFC. 35-5 from 2002-2011, and 39-9 from 2002-2013. They were better against the NFC than against their own division and better than the Giants were against the NFC.
That translates to an AVERAGE season record f 13-3 vs the NFC for 12 straight years. And for the 2002-2011 DECADE, that average season is 14-2!!
This AFC easy nonsense is just that. Over the time frame, the Jets, Dolphins, and Bills look worse because they have to play the juggernaut patriots twice every year
To wit: Lombardi's Packers vs Landry's Cowboys
Coughlin's Giants vs. Belichick's Patriots
To wit: Lombardi's Packers vs Landry's Cowboys
Coughlin's Giants vs. Belichick's Patriots
I think it's because you have the most awesome user name I've ever seen on BBI.
But I put him a clear level below Belichick. So "best of his era" just isn't something I agree with.
Andy Reid vs. Tom Coughlin is a more interesting debate to me than Belichick vs. Coughlin.
mrvax : 5/27/2014 10:09 am : link : reply
that Belichick orchestrated is a big black mark on his career. It shows he was/is willing to cheat to win.
Not just willing to, he did cheat!
I find it curious that so many here are willing to dismiss or totally overlook that. So I guess Sammy Sosa, Mark McGuire, and Barry Bonds were truly the equals of Ruth, Gherig, Musial, and Mays? I think not...
Why isn't cheating, cheating? For coaches too?
BB (Bill Belichick) is the BB (Barry Bonds) of coaches!