Orr: Giants feel Will Hill can win his appeal.

That would be phenomenal news if he wins his appeal.

as the lull of the post-draft offseason continues, Will Hill's status with the team is my main concern. I believe our secondary has a chance to be something special. I hope this situation somehow works out.

if he wins his appeal

doesn't make sense to me. If the Giants feel his grounds for appeal are enough that he could win his appeal (and thus why he hasn't been released yet) why would they release him if he loses? If the Giants feel his "reason" is just why would it matter if the league rules otherwise? Salary reasons?

and if Will Hill gets his shit together, he better give a massive discount come contract time. We've put up with a ridiculous amount with him.

I fully expect him to go to the highest bidder though...

In comment 11697750 DanMetroMan said:

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doesn't make sense to me. If the Giants feel his grounds for appeal are enough that he could win his appeal (and thus why he hasn't been released yet) why would they release him if he loses? If the Giants feel his "reason" is just why would it matter if the league rules otherwise? Salary reasons?

I wouldn't get to worked up about how a random guy on twitter phrased his question

I think its pretty clear that if he wins the appeal the team will keep him around for the time being

but there has been little risk involved.

He has never been given any guaranteed money as far as I can tell.

I'd continue to go short-term incentive-laden deals with him.

The biggest problem is he's unreliable so they need a good backup plan for when he's found trouble again.

two reasons

1) he will be suspended for a full year, tough to hang onto him for that long (not that I personally would be opposed to it as it doesn't really take any team resources)

2) if he looses his appeal its quite possible he was lying about his excuse

what I meant was his answer

"They do, which is why he hasn't been released yet"

Why should it matter if he wins his appeal IF the Giants feel his argument is just? The Giants being fed up with him shouldn't relate to how the league rules. If his argument is enough that the Giants are sticking with him for now, why would the league ruling against him matter?

enough. Thanks

the better chance of Hill sticking.

It makes little sense to go through a full-offseason, OTA's, mini-camp with Hill entrenched as your starting safety to then release him. That wouldn't have a good effect on-field chemistry.

In comment 11697778 Brandon Walsh said:

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the better chance of Hill sticking. It makes little sense to go through a full-offseason, OTA's, mini-camp with Hill entrenched as your starting safety to then release him. That wouldn't have a good effect on-field chemistry.

I don't think this is true. I think they are just waiting for the league to rule and then make their decision based off of that.

And I bet Brown is entrenched as the starter opposite Rolle

one thing fans need to keep in mind - if I am not mistaken - Hill's first suspension was the result of a failed drug test BEFORE the Giants signed him. They knew he had failed that test.

In comment 11697788 Eric from BBI said:

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one thing fans need to keep in mind - if I am not mistaken - Hill's first suspension was the result of a failed drug test BEFORE the Giants signed him. They knew he had failed that test.

how does that changes anything?

harm in waiting, but I'd only keep him if we were really hit by injuries at that position.

It's always something with Hill. And each time he says it won't happen again. Until it does. His talent is no good to us on the bench. And he is too much of a distraction, especially on a team with a lot of new faces on both sides of the ball. He's already been given a lot of chances. Absent injuries, his time should be up IMO.

It's just that he's not available or reliable.

Even when he's not getting in trouble, as a fan, you're just waiting to wake up one morning, hit BBI and read that he was busted overnight for something, or he failed yet another drug screening.

to happen very often...does it?

Hope Mr. Hill bucks whatever those odds are.

In comment 11697788 Eric from BBI said:

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one thing fans need to keep in mind - if I am not mistaken - Hill's first suspension was the result of a failed drug test BEFORE the Giants signed him. They knew he had failed that test.

When would he have failed a drug test before the Giants signed him? Wasn't he in the arena league?

It would mean that if Hill wins this appeal, he has only "messed up" once since being with the Giants. The one before he signed with the team was for Adderall.

he was with the Redskins too.

In comment 11697812 Eric from BBI said:

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It would mean that if Hill wins this appeal, he has only "messed up" once since being with the Giants. The one before he signed with the team was for Adderall.

you actually have to fail drug tests a number of times before you get suspended.

This is probably his 5th or 6th failed drug test

I could be wrong about that first test. It might have been with the Giants. But I could have sworn I read something at the time that the team knew about it. I'll see if I can find in the archives.

No, you get suspended for second failed drug test.

In comment 11697788 Eric from BBI said:

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one thing fans need to keep in mind - if I am not mistaken - Hill's first suspension was the result of a failed drug test BEFORE the Giants signed him. They knew he had failed that test.

And his second was for pot. Lets not pretend like this guy is Aaron Hernandez. It's not a performance enhancer and is legal for recreational and/or medical use in many states. It's no worse than booze -- where would the outrage level be if the NFL said players couldnt have a drink during the offseason? Total BS.

from News and Notes (July 2013)

Will Hill Admits He Failed Drug Test for Marijuana: Safety Will Hill told the press on Sunday that he has failed multiple drug tests for marijauna last season. As previously reported, Hill has been suspended for the first four games of the 2013 regular season due to violating the NFL’s policy on substance abuse. Hill appealed the suspension, but the appeal was rejected.

Hill was also suspended for the first four games of the 2012 regular season for using Adderall, violating the NFL’s policy on performance-enhancing substances.

“Just going through a lot of stressful times through last season, and I failed a lot of drug tests,” said Hill. “It carried over to this season. Just trying to fight it and obviously the league made the decision for this season.”

“I had a lot of stress from my environment,” said Hill. “(Drugs were) the only way I knew how to cope with it until I got with the team. They put me in some clinic and that helped me out…We were trying to fight (the suspension), basically. The team stepped in and tried to do the best they could so this would not happen, but ultimately the league made the decision.”

“The Giants helped me the best way they could,” said Hill. “They got me help and helped me see other ways to cope with my problems…The Giants helped me out a lot. I wasn’t here for the spring practices and stuff. I was in Boston at this clinic and they were giving me help there and I’ve been going to an outpatient (facility) in Parsippany, (New Jersey).”

“We were disappointed and hopefully Will is going to get his life straightened out,” said Head Coach Tom Coughlin.
Will Hill Admits He Failed Drug Test for Marijuana - ( New Window )

is the earliest you can receive a suspension



The first positive test for a "substance of abuse" results in the player formally entering an enhanced testing/treatment program, where the player is tested more frequently.

A second positive test results in the player entering the "stages of intervention" outlined in the policy. "Stage 1" is the first stage in the policy and includes the player being referred to a "Regional Team" for his treatment. In Stage 1, the player can be tested as many times as the league's "Medical Director" desires to "adequately evaluate the player."

A positive test while in Stage 1 can result in a fine equal to three weeks of a player's pay and results in entrance to Stage 2.

A player remains under Stage 1 guidelines for 90 days, but the league's Medical Director can extend that time up to six months.

In Stage 2, players are subject to unannounced testing up to 10 times a month. A positive test while in Stage 2 or failure to comply with the treatment program results in a fine equal to four game checks and a four-game suspension.
Link - ( New Window )

He is in the drug program. He was already in stage two based on his 4 game suspension and public acknowledgment that he was in the program. Testing positive is not the only factor when in the program, behavior is now subject to review.

And for perspective, Josh Gordon is participating in OTAs and he is believed to be in stage 3 which carries a ban and requirement for reinstatement.

I always thought it was two, not three.

.

...

Why is there so much confusion/lack of information regarding what Hill is facing?

Is it not a huge, necessary distinction? Whether or not a potential star/key player is facing either a 6-8 game suspension or a full-season suspension?

Perhaps I've missed it, but has there been a definitive punishment set for Hill should his appeal fail?

Were a much, much better d with him back there. Hope he wins and puts the past behind him

we don't know what he supposed is in trouble for this time...
Will Hill Fails Drug Test Again and Giants May Cut Ties - ( New Window )

I don't believe any details on the nature of his violation have been made public.

I don't think the punishment has been definitively stated.
It is annoying

...here that he's guilty. It may well be, the odds favor it, if slightly, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt until the ruling is made.

I most certainly don't regard the league's punishment mechanisms to be untarnished. Like some legal situations, you can be as pure as the driven snow and found guilty because someone has a hard-on for you. I'm not saying that's the case here, but there are very few players that win appeals, and that seems like a skewed statistic.

When the Hill story first broke, and the consensus among the beatwriters was that Hill was as good as gone?

In comment 11697814 Eric from BBI said:

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he was with the Redskins too.

Is that true? I can't find any evidence they ever signed Will Hill.

It's not in his stats pages, wikipedia, and only article I found about it refutes it.

I am sure your information is better than mine, LOL since my "research" means google searching.

Hill being on the field is a major strength to the D. he is like a LB and Safety.

In comment 11697859 Sneakers O'toole said:

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I don't believe any details on the nature of his violation have been made public.

They won't be, at least not officially. It's protected information by the CBA. The league won't disclose it. They only categorize it as performance-enhancing substance or other substance.

considering what the league lets the players do with the pharmaceuticals available to team physicians.

Yes, I know. I'm just saying, nothing has come out about it.

I would not release him even if he loses the appeal. As mentioned above, he makes very little money and is one of the best, if not the best, safety on the team. When you factor in his cap value, he's one of the best players in the league. But, that aside, the country is moving fairly quickly to legalization, or just decriminalization, of marijuana use. It would be a shame to release him this season and find out next season that the league will stop testing for recreational use and focus exclusively on performance enhancing or dangerous drugs. It's easy for people who have never lived in the shoes of a player with Hill's background to criticize and I'm not defending his lack of judgement but truthfully, does it make a real difference in the real world whether he smokes a joint or has a few drinks to deal with he stress in his life. I hope he wins his appeal but even if he doesn't, I would not want to see him released.

iam

To win an appeal in stage two. Winning an appeal in stage one is rare but happens.

Ok Will,you were on thin ice,now your on...thinner ice!


Yeah,yeah,In Reese We Blaze

In 2015 will he remain in the last year of his UDFA contract or will he be a RFA?

Anyone know what happened to contracts of players suspended for a full year?

PED and another for recreational street drugs like weed. He has one suspension for each under his belt right now. We dont' know which one he is supposedly in violation of currently yet.

there were conflicting reports as to whether Will Hill was ever signed as UFA by the Skins. He may have been a tryout player...
http://www.alligatorarmy.com/2011/7/25/2293953/washington-redskins-sign-will-hill - ( New Window )

In comment 11697915 Sneakers O'toole said:

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PED and another for recreational street drugs like weed. He has one suspension for each under his belt right now. We dont' know which one he is supposedly in violation of currently yet.

His arrest in December where weed was allegedly found in his car would be a stage two violation.

he wasn't arrested in December for weed...the police report said there was a smell of it in the car.

I hadn't read that. Is that confirmed that he was a passenger in a car with a pot smell? Where's the failed drug test especially if he's denying that he used it.

on the field for this team last year, and that includes Rolle and Beason. He's too good and too cheap right now to release IMO, even if he doesn't win the appeal.

Of course, I know absolutely nothing about what he has told front office members, team officials or teammates. There is so much that goes on behind closed doors that we have no idea about. All I know is what happens between the lines, that I can watch, the guy is a phenomenal talent.

I'm not saying this infraction has to do with the car issue, but here is the story on the car...
Police: Giants safety Hill was behind $9K in child support; odor of marijuana in car - ( New Window )

Hadn't seen that. How the hell does that warrant a conversation about a possible season long suspension (or even less than that)? It would be total bureaucratic bullshit if he loses any time especially given that players who have committed serious crimes dont get punished like that.

no one has said (other than pure speculation here)that that incident is the cause of the suspension

was never with the Redskins

no arrest made for weed, and no weed found on him. The officer stated that there was the smell of it in the car. I think it's possible that this incident triggered a test from the league, and that the test is the basis for the suspension. That is just me guessing.

And it's often just a bullshit justification to ransack someone's vehicle.

That is very true.

In comment 11697860 Blue Baller said:

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I don't think the punishment has been definitively stated. It is annoying

I just don't get this, but OK.

How many times has he been suspended specifically for substance abuse, and is the pending suspension for substance abuse. Answering these two questions, seems to me, would answer how long Hill is slated to be suspended for.

I don't get how this distinction hasn't been priority #1 for Giants' beat writers. It's the biggest story on the defense at the moment.

but hey, maximize value. Keep him as long as possible and then exile him to some team that is far from us for a late round pick. How many times is this idiot going to let us down? My hope is that this is all a pose to get us that pick, and they want him gone.

But if weed was in the police report it would be a violation of the behavior cause of his treatment. He is basically on probation and the incident would have occured within his 24 month evaluation period. There is some debate whether he is in stage two or actually stage three like Gordon due to the fact he received 4 games suspension last season. Adderall was his claim not the NFL. What is incredible how quickly he advanced in stages. He had to be triggering a lot of positive tests.

Not last season admisdion to weed.

but we know for a fact that that suspension was under the PED rules.

removed this "drug" from its forbidden list. If the NFL is concerned that kids will be tempted when they learn that their football heroes have a joint now and again, don't report it. NFL players have been known to run with prostitutes and get falling down drunk, behaviors that shouldn't be publicized for the sake of the kids, but neither of which is cause for an NFL suspension, and both of which could be more risky that smoking weed.

without Will Hill. I say this because where do you go with the ball when we have the usual four DB's, or five DB's, or six DB sets of today's NFL? All of our starters, our nickel and our dime safety (Brown) are pretty damn good.

If JPP bounces back and Hankins stuffs the run and pass it just opens things up for middle for blitzes and stuff. Our defense has a chance to be special if it stays healthy and plays to its abilities.

Last, I have this funny feeling - a guess really - that DE Ayers is going to have a "break out" season and win the starting job and show the NFL why he was once a #1 pick. If that happens we have a superb DL, DB and LB set. When is the last time we had all those in place?

In comment 11697808 Jimmy Googs said:

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to happen very often...does it? Hope Mr. Hill bucks whatever those odds are.

Richard Sherman won his appeal. So,, it does happen.

I'm not surprised.

In comment 11698337 UberAlias said:

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I'm not surprised.

not surprised at what ??

In comment 11698184 Dry Lightning said:

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but hey, maximize value. Keep him as long as possible and then exile him to some team that is far from us for a late round pick. How many times is this idiot going to let us down? My hope is that this is all a pose to get us that pick, and they want him gone.

Another member of the "every silver lining has its cloud" crowd. I hope you never, ever serve on a jury; you simply aren't capable of rational, critical thought.

at allowing pot in exchange for HGH testing.

In comment 11698277 jeffusedtobeonwebtv said:

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In comment 11697808 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: to happen very often...does it? Hope Mr. Hill bucks whatever those odds are. Richard Sherman won his appeal. So,, it does happen.

Sherman's suspension was for PEDs not recreational drugs. You are more likely to win PEDs. Also Sherman was never in the NFL treatment program. Very different circumstances.

how confident can you be he won't screw up again - they have a lot of players at the safety position. if he wins his appeal, do you keep him and cut a player of lesser but still good ability and take a chance Hill won't screw up again?

Lets get real folks. Many people smoke grass either to relax, self-medicate, enjoy getting high, and/or actually attempt to reduce their physical pain (the least of the above reasons).
Nevertheless, whatever the reasons, it's time for the NFL to catch up to the present Zeitgeist of this country. By 2017, there is likely to be a federal law enacted to decriminalize and legalize marijuana throughout the US.
Sure I'm prejudiced in my view because I am a big Will Hill fan. However, haven't the major sports led the way in being the testing ground to change societal mores? Well (again), the NFL needs to step up here and change their drug policy regarding smoking reefer. Lots of players do it during the offseason. Unfortunately, it seems "Will the Thrill" has been under the microscope.

In comment 11699026 bc4life said:

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how confident can you be he won't screw up again - they have a lot of players at the safety position. if he wins his appeal, do you keep him and cut a player of lesser but still good ability and take a chance Hill won't screw up again?

Mike,

I respect your opinion. But how can you say that Hill screwed up? Is that because he got caught? Remember, his previous indiscretion was with stimulant medication (which he claimed that he needed). Is smoking a little grass a screw up? I understand the rules that players are contracted to through the NFL CBA. However, getting caught smoking grass (IMHO) should not be grounds for suspension in the NFL. And if anything, the Giants should go to bat for Will and protect him (citing that the present rules in place for smoking marijuana are effete).

That may be true..
But Rules are Rules and the NFL sticks to the Rules!

he doesn't count on the roster. I don't have to cut anybody until he comes off suspension. And in the NFL there is always a real possibility that injury makes it unnecessary to cut somebody even then.

You're not going to lose a lesser but still good player by keeping a suspended Hill. If you lose that player in order to keep an active Hill, you haven't lost, you've won.

The turnover rate in the NFL is 20%+ year to year. Chances are the "lesser but still good player" is not going to be on the team next year anyway. Keep the better player.

if he could.

mike?

how would BBI have reacted to LT getting suspended because he broke a few rules?

In comment 11699137 royhobbs7 said:

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In comment 11699026 bc4life said: Quote: how confident can you be he won't screw up again - they have a lot of players at the safety position. if he wins his appeal, do you keep him and cut a player of lesser but still good ability and take a chance Hill won't screw up again? Mike, I respect your opinion. But how can you say that Hill screwed up? Is that because he got caught? Remember, his previous indiscretion was with stimulant medication (which he claimed that he needed). Is smoking a little grass a screw up? I understand the rules that players are contracted to through the NFL CBA. However, getting caught smoking grass (IMHO) should not be grounds for suspension in the NFL. And if anything, the Giants should go to bat for Will and protect him (citing that the present rules in place for smoking marijuana are effete).

He screwed up because he (reportedly) tested positive for a substance that is:
a) prohibited by the NFL's substance abuse policy and
b) is still illegal in 48 states and nationally

Whether or not is should (or will) be legalized in the coming years has no bearing on the case. The Commish might decide some leniency is in order due to the slowly changing landscape, but that doesn't mean Hill didn't screw up.

In comment 11698350 Blue Blood said:

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In comment 11698337 UberAlias said: Quote: I'm not surprised. not surprised at what ??

Not surprised they think he can win the appeal.

In comment 11699137 royhobbs7 said:

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In comment 11699026 bc4life said: Quote: how confident can you be he won't screw up again - they have a lot of players at the safety position. if he wins his appeal, do you keep him and cut a player of lesser but still good ability and take a chance Hill won't screw up again? Mike, I respect your opinion. But how can you say that Hill screwed up? Is that because he got caught? Remember, his previous indiscretion was with stimulant medication (which he claimed that he needed). Is smoking a little grass a screw up? I understand the rules that players are contracted to through the NFL CBA. However, getting caught smoking grass (IMHO) should not be grounds for suspension in the NFL. And if anything, the Giants should go to bat for Will and protect him (citing that the present rules in place for smoking marijuana are effete).

Since Hill knew he was in the NFL's drug program and his job depended on staying clean in frequent unannounced drug tests, smoking weed, even in a state where it is already legal, qualifies as screwing up. Even if you think the rules are effete.

Just hope the Giants don't also screw up by cutting him.

(that's assuming that he's an otherwise good teammate - something I don't get to see everyday and admittedly know nothing about)

royhobbs7 said:

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And if anything, the Giants should go to bat for Will and protect him (citing that the present rules in place for smoking marijuana are effete).

Fairly certain this is not what the 2014 NY Giants will do. So what is up next on your legal strategy board?