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McClain vs Rivers?

Fred-in-Florida : 6/9/2014 6:31 am
The article in 'The Post' which is posted in a thread below prompted my inquiry.

This off season we signed McClain off the Ravens roster and lost Rivers.. basically we traded one for the other.

My question..or questions to the more knowledgeable.

Did we improve ourselves. Both are veterans Rivers never lived up to expectations since being a high draft pick of the Bengals(?) What about McClain..did he benefit from being part of a togh Ravens 'D' or was he an important part of thet 'D'.

Can we expect McClain to be better than what we had in Rivers?


We can hope  
Jupiter : 6/9/2014 6:44 am : link
Rivers was a JAG. He never seemed to really make a play. If McClain can avoid making bonehead plays, he probably will play at least as well as Rivers.
One hopes  
NYDCBlue : 6/9/2014 6:48 am : link
At the least it makes more sense to have a McClain on the roster than Rivers. I say that because Rivers to me is another Will, like Paysinger and Williams to my eye. McClain is a more physical player who will hopefully hold up better against the run. McClain just seems to fit the body type of a player they want at SAM better.

If you must, go ahead and mentally swap the WILL and SAM positions to fit Fewell's D.
if our 'Will like a SAM' is on the right, (maclain)  
alligatorpie : 6/9/2014 8:22 am : link
I wonder if Herzlich does better over there, as #2 RLB, being a bigger player, instead of #2 Mike.

Paysinger as back up or #2 Mike (made plays last year)one can assume that he is more solidly built than he was as a rookie.

allowing Williams more time at left (most peoples Sam but more of a play in space and chase position like Will with us) due to his speed.

look for williams to have his head into the position in pre-season.



so it would be  
alligatorpie : 6/9/2014 8:30 am : link
williams/beason/maclain
paysinger/paysigner/herzlich

(5 active, above)

anderson/fox/kennard
I think they are opposite players.  
Curtis in VA : 6/9/2014 8:34 am : link
McClain is slow but instinctive. Rivers is fast but slow to react. I could be wrong but thats my impression.
of you could go  
alligatorpie : 6/9/2014 8:43 am : link
cooper taylor/john beason/demontre moore

but keep in mind, moore is, or was, only marginally bigger than herz/maclain and has not shown much pass rush yet.

but this is what you could do with a 5-1-5

or even

rolle/herz/taylor

on passing downs
To me  
Fred-in-Florida : 6/9/2014 8:44 am : link
and correct me if I'm wrong.

Will is weakside and Sam is strong where the TE makes the side he lines up strong.
people here always talk about how we line the smaller faster  
alligatorpie : 6/9/2014 8:49 am : link
player up on the tight end side, and the bigger thumper on the side without, so, typically a Sam almost being a DE, here he is more like a big slow-ish safety, while the will is the big thumper
Aliigatorpie: Williams will get most of his snaps in the nickel.  
Big Blue Blogger : 6/9/2014 8:55 am : link
That doesn't make him less important than the starters. Fewell will probably have some kind of 5-6 DB package on the field half the time. (The more the better, since it usually means favorable down and distance.)

Coming back to McClain vs. Rivers...

In the base 4-3, the starters are likely to be Paysinger, Beason and McClain. Comparing McClain to Rivers might not be meaningful, since it appears that Paysinger is swapping over to Rivers's old position. So the question becomes:
Paysinger + McClain > Rivers + Paysinger?

I'd say neither combination is anything special; but with a healthy Beason in the middle Paysinger and McClain are probably good enough to hold the fort on first and second downs if the line and secondary play well.
here is how we can roll  
alligatorpie : 6/9/2014 8:57 am : link
Ayers/Hankins/Jenkins/JPP

Rolle..Beason................Demontre Moore


......Steve Brown.....
DRC.....Thurmond.................Prince



rivers ended up in coverage too often  
alligatorpie : 6/9/2014 8:59 am : link
he would blow up one play and on the next give up a huge 1st down in coverage.

not a fan of linebackers covering tight ends much less wrs
McClain vs Rivers  
stretch234 : 6/9/2014 9:04 am : link
I think Curtis said it best with the 2. While Rivers seemingly has more natural ability and is faster, his lack of instincts seem to make him a slower LB overall on the field.

I thought Rivers would get it with the change of scenery but in reality, he is just not very good.

looks like Ayers might be better against the run than  
alligatorpie : 6/9/2014 9:09 am : link
we expect, not sure d moore is an every down player,

however, if its a big, slow thumper at our version of 'will',

then demontre moore might provide a nicer pass rush next to JPP on 3rd and long, and may be more athletic that maclain and herz

same with williams, admire his speed and coverage, but i dont think it equals rolle or taylors or another DB

and. if you only have one LB, let it be a savvy vet leader like beason
JM is the better player  
Big Blue '56 : 6/9/2014 9:09 am : link
even if Rivers has more "natural" talent..I view this as a big upgrade of a heady player who gets the job done..He and Beason will really improve the corps imv..
also, if you go even lighter and faster at the TE side  
alligatorpie : 6/9/2014 9:22 am : link
with a safety instead of the LB,

you can shift the DL gap assignments that way,

making the extra DE at LB on the right/weak, non TE, side more useful, as you have moved your right DE in a bit, more over the OT.
Aliigatorpie: Moore is a RDE, not a LB  
Big Blue Blogger : 6/9/2014 9:26 am : link
From a depth-chart perspective, he is Pierre-Paul's backup. In reality, they will be on the field together in passing situations. The best-case scenario is that Moore becomes the next Osi Umenyiora. I don't think the Giants are grooming him as the next Mathias Kiwanuka - partly because they never decided what Mathias Kiwanuka was supposed to be.

Could Moore line up with his hand out of the dirt sometimes? Sure, but does that really make him a linebacker in any meaningful sense?
Rivers wasn't the answer more athlete than FB player  
bc4life : 6/9/2014 9:28 am : link
problem with McClain is the lack of athleticism - time will tell if his instincts can make up for his limited athleticism.
Rivers stunk.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/9/2014 9:46 am : link
He was incredibly invisible on the field for a guy billed as athletic.
I haven't watched McClain much but  
Jimmy Googs : 6/9/2014 9:53 am : link
Rivers provided really nothing at his position.

My view of Rivers was that he had above-average speed but that never translated into making plays at all. In fact, it seemed as if his only "tackles" were running players with the ball out of bounds.

Hoping McClain at least provides more of a presence on the field.
Rivers  
NYGmen58 : 6/9/2014 10:00 am : link
is incredibly strong and one of the best LBs at getting off blockers but is not a downhill, hard-hitting, gap-filling/hole-plugging run-stuffer, like McClain is.

In short, Rivers was a better lateral player but McClain is a better straight ahead run-stopper.

I don't think McClain is that much of an upgrade but he is certainly more physical and will be a good compliment to Paysinger on the other side on 1st and 2nd down.


adding savvy vets in the back 7 was a good idea.  
alligatorpie : 6/9/2014 10:02 am : link
but you want to be careful that your middle 3 are a balanced group. or your middle, 2,1 or 0.

to me, the discussion is how best to run with less than 3 true linebackers on any down,

because it is getting less and less clear that 3 true linebackers is a good formation

in a passing league with huge athletic OLs, you need huge DLs 2 attack extra gaps and speed / instincts out back
They traded for Rivers based on his potential  
Milton : 6/9/2014 10:05 am : link
They signed McClain based on his production.
think  
area junc : 6/9/2014 11:52 am : link
Kawika Mitchell
Is he as athletic  
bc4life : 6/9/2014 11:57 am : link
as Mitchell?
RE: here is how we can roll  
Mighty : 6/9/2014 12:12 pm : link
In comment 11718328 alligatorpie said:
Quote:
Ayers/Hankins/Jenkins/JPP

Rolle..Beason................Demontre Moore


......Steve Brown.....
DRC.....Thurmond.................Prince



This alignment looks like it could be a disaster. Is that supposed to be a 4-3 with Rolle and Moore at the LBs and Thurmond playing cover 1 safety? formatting on here is kinda hard to do so its a bit confusing.
thurmond is playing corner, slot  
alligatorpie : 6/9/2014 12:15 pm : link
.
rolle is playing safety  
alligatorpie : 6/9/2014 12:18 pm : link
can cover the TE or vs runs left

steve brown free safety

3 corners vs 3 wrs

the DL is shifted left

moore pass rushing

obviously vs long type set
obviously power runs towards the TE  
alligatorpie : 6/9/2014 12:38 pm : link
but, you have to let beason and rolle deal with that.
I would compare McClain more to  
Damon : 6/9/2014 3:03 pm : link
Emmons... During the last couple of years of his career.

I'm not particularly excited about McClain. He gets juked a lot and because he looks to strip the ball every time he tries to make a tackle, he ends up missing a lot of tackles. He's not particularly athletic, does not shed blocks very well... And heaven forbid you see him in coverage...

I don't think he was a stregnth in the Ravens D. I can see Dan Fox stealing his candy in camp.
Isn't  
Semipro Lineman : 6/9/2014 3:12 pm : link
one of the advantages McClain has over Rivers is his ability to sub for Beason at Middle Linebacker? I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet because his role as insurance policy is extremely important in my mind.
Semi  
Damon : 6/9/2014 3:34 pm : link
He's a smart player. He could call the plays and get people lined up. He's not a playmaker.
Ew,  
Giantology : 6/9/2014 4:36 pm : link
Carlos Emmons? I pray McClain is better than that.
Emmons was a tree stump.  
Klaatu : 6/9/2014 4:39 pm : link
I don't know much about McClain...I do know that he's coming back from some kind of spinal injury...I certainly hope he moves better than Emmons, though.
injuries  
bc4life : 6/9/2014 6:25 pm : link
kept Emmons form contributing anything to the Giants
injuries  
bc4life : 6/9/2014 6:26 pm : link
kept Emmons form contributing anything to the Giants
Curtis has it right  
Marty866b : 6/9/2014 6:36 pm : link
McClain is more instinctive and a lot more physical.
This:  
BlueLou : 6/9/2014 6:47 pm : link
Quote:
Rivers stunk.
Ten Ton Hammer : 9:46 am : link : reply
He was incredibly invisible on the field for a guy billed as athletic.


Rivers is one guy I really paid some attention to, and calling him "invisible on the field" is probably too kind. He really was an awful football player in every which way as an LB, which means a whole lotta ways.

Watching him tackle was like watching ladies' mud wrestling; I don't think I'd ever seen another LB with less pop in their tackling - and that includes Bryan Kiehl.
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