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Snee and the Injury Protection Clause

Milton : 6/14/2014 10:28 pm
If Snee fails his pre-training camp physical and retires, he will be entitled to $1.1M in injury protection benefit according to Article 45 of the CBA (because it was the result of an injury from last season). I wonder if this is where things are heading and the Giants (including management, coaches, and Snee) are just going through the motions in order to be in compliance with the legalize....

Quote:
ARTICLE 45 INJURY PROTECTION
Section 1.
Qualification:
A player qualifying under the following criteria will receive an Injury Protection benefit in accordance with Section 2 below:
(a) The player must have been physically unable, because of a severe football injury in an NFL game or practice, to participate in all or part of his Club’s last game of the season of injury, as certified by the Club physician following a physical examination after the last game; or the player must have undergone Club-authorized surgery in the off-season following the season of injury; and
(b) The player must have undergone whatever reasonable and customary rehabilitation treatment his Club required of him during the off-season following the season of injury; and
(c) The player must have failed the preseason physical examination given by the Club physician for the season following the season of injury because of such injury and as a result his Club must have terminated his contract for the season following the season of injury. This preseason physical may be given by the Club physician prior to the beginning of preseason camp, so long as such fact is clearly communicated in writing to the player at the time of the physical exam. The preseason physical examination given for qualification need not be the entire Standard Minimum Preseason Physical Examination, but shall be that necessary and appropriate to evaluate the injury for which the benefit is sought.

Section 2.
Benefit:
A player qualifying under Section 1 above will receive an amount equal to 50% of his Paragraph 5 Salary for the season following the season of injury, up to a maximum payment of: $1,000,000, in the 2011–12 League Years; $1,050,000, in the 2013–14 League Years; $1,100,000, in the 2015–16 League Years; $1,150,000, in the 2017–18 League Years; and $1,200,000, in the 2019–2020 League Years; in each case unless he has individually negotiated more injury protection or a larger guaranteed salary in his contract. The benefit will be paid to the player in equal weekly installments commencing no later than the date of the first regular season game, which benefit payments will cease if the player signs a contract for that season with another Club.
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Is that what they said  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 11:14 am : link
or is this your opinion stated as fact?
BB'56  
Milton : 6/15/2014 11:16 am : link
And it's not just about Snee, it's about the new center (Walton) to his left, the youngster to his right, and the new offense. It's not like this is the Gilbride offense and he has O'Hara on his left and McKenzie on his right.
My opinion is that assuming he's healthy,  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 11:17 am : link
they're giving the newbies to the squad all the reps they can get..Does Snee really need them pre -camp?
RE: Is that what they said  
Klaatu : 6/15/2014 11:19 am : link
In comment 11728699 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
or is this your opinion stated as fact?


From ESPN, three days ago:
Quote:
Chris Snee was present and in uniform, but did not participate in team drills, with Mosley filling his spot at right guard. The same thing happened at last Thursday's OTA. The team is giving Snee some days off as he works his way back from offseason hip and elbow surgeries.


Take off the blue-colored glasses, Doc.
RE: My opinion is that assuming he's healthy,  
Milton : 6/15/2014 11:20 am : link
In comment 11728703 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
they're giving the newbies to the squad all the reps they can get..Does Snee really need them pre -camp?
Of course he does!!! Like I said, it's not just about him, it's about putting together the new OL and the new offense. Every rep is important.
And Milton, as I told Eric the other day,  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 11:20 am : link
I've softened up my stance somehat(re OTAs) because of the new OC...But I still maintain that all Snee would need to be ready for the season opener is training camp with full pads on..Plenty of time to get game-ready and acclimate to a new system, imv
Snee himself made the comment that he has  
Jimmy Googs : 6/15/2014 11:23 am : link
"good days and bad days" relative to his body functioning.

He is missing OTA practices because he simply can't go everyday.
RE: And Milton, as I told Eric the other day,  
Milton : 6/15/2014 11:23 am : link
In comment 11728708 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
I've softened up my stance somehat(re OTAs) because of the new OC...But I still maintain that all Snee would need to be ready for the season opener is training camp with full pads on..Plenty of time to get game-ready and acclimate to a new system, imv
You keep ignoring the importance of working with his new linemates in a new system.
K,  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 11:27 am : link
re your ESPN quote, EXACTLY! They're not going to rush this guy back until he's ready for meaningful snaps, even if technically he has been medically cleared for some work..He doesn't need this..Training camp is more than enough time to guage whether it was truly the injuries or he's in steep decline..Hard for me to believe an 11 year savvy vet needs OTAs to stand-up, move left or right or acclimate to new line calls..Other positions such as WR? Different case, imv..If he's gonna play this year, training camp is plenty imo
And if in fact he's still hurting,  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 11:31 am : link
they're naturally gonna hold him back..But if he's 100%, does anyone really believe that missing all but a full camp and pre-season games wouldn't be more than enough for a guy like Snee to adjust to everything thrown at him including new linemates?
but f he were to be 100% is how it should have read  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 11:32 am : link
.
My apologies to those on this thread re Snee's present health.  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 11:37 am : link
I don't follow or care to follow OTAs(never have, never will) save for what new injuries are reported and I wasn't aware of his present status..But honestly, my point about Snee only needing a full camp and pre-season game sked stands..That's more than enough time for him to acclimate/adjust to anything were he to rwmain healthy, imv
Doc, I just can't believe you're this obtuse.  
Klaatu : 6/15/2014 11:38 am : link
Again, if Snee was good-to-go he'd be getting all of the reps with the 1st team. It has nothing to do with being a savvy 11-year vet who may or may not need them in OTAs, even with a new offense and new linemates. It has everything to do with his health, which is obviously still a major concern. How can you not see this?

Do you really think one month will make that big a difference? The guy can't go full-out on June 12. Do you really think he'll be 100% by July 21? Milton makes a valid point in his OP. The Giants should be looking to move on from Snee, a great player in his time, but whose time has pretty much passed.
Of course he'd get ALL the reps, because THAT'S COUGHLIN.  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 11:46 am : link
No surprise there..Still doesn't detract from my major point that he wouldn't/doesn't need anything other than what I stated above..Nothing about being obtuse. Very much about how a guy like Snee would be perfectly ready to start the season with just training camp and games under his belt..They proved that during the Noll, Walsh, Shula, Landry, Parcells, Gibbs eras..Camp and games were more than enough..

You're being obtuse by not comprehnding THAT
And K, the OP said in part.  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 11:50 am : link
[quote].... I wonder if this is where things are heading and the Giants (including management, coaches, and Snee) are just going through the motions in order to be in compliance with the legalize..[\quote]

That conjecture is spot on, but Snee(if healthy) technically not needing anything more than camp and games, is not?
.  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 11:51 am : link
[quote.. I wonder if this is where things are heading and the Giants (including management, coaches, and Snee) are just going through the motions in order to be in compliance with the legalize[/quote]
Yeah, because training camp in the 70's and 80's...  
Klaatu : 6/15/2014 11:53 am : link
Was exactly like it is now. Sheesh. Not only is that a ridiculous comparison, but it has absolutely no bearing on Snee's situation. You're reaching...big time.
K,  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 12:05 pm : link
not reaching at all..why would the eras be meaningless? They played 5-6 pre-season games and had a full camp..It was enough for them to play at a high level once they played for real..Why would today be any different? Each team then had about 5-10 assistant coaches compared to the 500 each team has today to have specialized attention..The electronics, conditioning, etc of today is far more advanced than it was then which has helped tremendously today's players...




And K, were you around  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 12:07 pm : link
training camps in the 70s-80s? I was..I went to many Giants training camps and they were brutal..
I will say this for the last time on this thread.  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 12:15 pm : link
A guy like Snee only needs camp and games to be ready for the start of the season..There is nothing anyone could throw at him that he couldn't easily absorb and acclimate to with a full complement of Camp work..

I am ONLY addressing Snee for the purposes of THIS thread..Just because Snee would have gotten "all the reps" under TC doesn't mean all that much to me..TC played ALL his starters for game 16 in 2007(which I agreed with, btw) while MANY other coached would not have..So as much as I love TC, not all coaches operate the way he does, so people throwing in his quotes about OTAs, etc., doesn't say all that much to me
RE: I will say this for the last time on this thread.  
Klaatu : 6/15/2014 12:27 pm : link
In comment 11728752 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
A guy like Snee only needs camp and games to be ready for the start of the season..There is nothing anyone could throw at him that he couldn't easily absorb and acclimate to with a full complement of Camp work..


That's assuming he's healthy enough for a full compliment of camp work, which is a pretty big assumption at this point.

Quote:
I am ONLY addressing Snee for the purposes of THIS thread..Just because Snee would have gotten "all the reps" under TC doesn't mean all that much to me...


Of course it doesn't. It doesn't fit your narrative about OTAs.


Quote:
TC played ALL his starters for game 16 in 2007(which I agreed with, btw) while MANY other coached would not have..So as much as I love TC, not all coaches operate the way he does...


That has zero bearing on Snee's situation in the Spring of 2014, but thanks for the memories.

Quote:
...so people throwing in his quotes about OTAs, etc., doesn't say all that much to me


Again, it doesn't fit your narrative so you just choose to ignore it.
Good Lawd..  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 12:28 pm : link
Bye bye
Forget everything I've written. I'll just address the OP's premise..  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 12:32 pm : link
The Giants don't work that way..They're not putting Snee through all of this so they can technically get him another million..TC would never stand for that..And neither would Snee imo..
It wouldn't be the first time  
PEEJ : 6/15/2014 12:34 pm : link
the Giants gave a going away present for long and meritorious service
PEEJ,  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 12:39 pm : link
when, besides injury settlements? I can't think of one time(doesn't mean it didn't happen) where the Giants' going away present included bringing back a player as they have with Snee in order to reward them..
I would suggest that Diehl's  
PEEJ : 6/15/2014 12:42 pm : link
last year (which included a $1M bonus) was a gift.
But he played the whole year.  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 12:49 pm : link
Unless you're being facetious
I would agree that Snee doesn't likely need all of the OTA days  
Jimmy Googs : 6/15/2014 1:13 pm : link
to get acclimated to a new Offense. However, it is clear his body won't let him go everyday anyway so that is the problem. In fact, Snee has already begun scheduling his upcoming weekly activities...

RE: I would agree that Snee doesn't likely need all of the OTA days  
shabu : 6/15/2014 1:21 pm : link
In comment 11728798 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
to get acclimated to a new Offense. However, it is clear his body won't let him go everyday anyway so that is the problem. In fact, Snee has already begun scheduling his upcoming weekly activities...



lol
Googs agreed and that was my only real point on this thread.  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 1:23 pm : link
I acknowledged that I didn't realize he was still hurting as I hadn't read the quotes cited on here..Has little to do with my prior general stance on OTAs. Rather it had everything to do with how much time Snee really needs to get ready for the season, assuming he's healthy enough to do so..

If I wasn't clear on that, well, that's on me..I thought I was being quite clear..
once an OL has bad hips  
oipolloi : 6/15/2014 1:56 pm : link
it is the end of the line

Im not sure if Milton is right. He could be. We'll find out. But clearly Snee is receiving extra special treatment because of his relationship with TC. When has any other injured player gotten so much extra money thrown at him?



RE: once an OL has bad hips  
Riggies : 6/15/2014 2:07 pm : link
In comment 11728839 oipolloi said:
Quote:
it is the end of the line

Im not sure if Milton is right. He could be. We'll find out. But clearly Snee is receiving extra special treatment because of his relationship with TC. When has any other injured player gotten so much extra money thrown at him?


The money Snee gets really shouldn't be the concern. It's not stopping them from signing anyone and, for once, it's not going to lead to them having to restructure anyone in a way that will bite them later.

The problem is that their "big" OL signing's best position is RG and he's been forced off of it, put at LG, in order for the team to continue to pretend Snee, with his two bad hips and bad elbow, isn't forked. Even their back-up plan to Snee is pretty terrible (as Jerry is the trifecta of injured himself, an asshole, and poor on the field).
RE: Googs agreed and that was my only real point on this thread.  
Jimmy Googs : 6/15/2014 2:22 pm : link
In comment 11728811 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
I acknowledged that I didn't realize he was still hurting as I hadn't read the quotes cited on here..Has little to do with my prior general stance on OTAs. Rather it had everything to do with how much time Snee really needs to get ready for the season, assuming he's healthy enough to do so..

If I wasn't clear on that, well, that's on me..I thought I was being quite clear..


No problem BB. I think we all need to realize when a Giant player says he is a 100%, he never says it with the pads on...
they should just tell Snee to accept  
mdc1 : 6/15/2014 3:48 pm : link
the money and GITFO so we can rebuild with youth. He is a waste of time and not the future. Clearly any fool knows that but they are rewarding him anyway, so just do it already, and move along so we can get shit done for the next generation of the team.

'56 drinking the Giants kool-aid like clockwork  
David in LA : 6/15/2014 3:53 pm : link
.
David, oh really? How's that?  
Big Blue '56 : 6/15/2014 4:09 pm : link
I don't agree with TC about OTAs..I don't believe Snee is getting special treatment as TC ever works that way..Snee got a million dollar prove it deal..A much bigger deal with guarantees money would show nepotism..

Have substance behind your accusations
Milton  
ZogZerg : 6/15/2014 6:10 pm : link
He's not out there so he can fail a physical and collect some extra $. He's out there helping the younger players and hoping to be able to contribute to the team.

If he can't go then he'll figure that out at some point during training camp. Like his roster spot is really important to free up? Get real.
RE: Milton  
Milton : 6/15/2014 6:45 pm : link
In comment 11729052 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
He's not out there so he can fail a physical and collect some extra $. He's out there helping the younger players and hoping to be able to contribute to the team.

If he can't go then he'll figure that out at some point during training camp. Like his roster spot is really important to free up? Get real.
It's not about the roster spot, it's about his health, so why don't you get real. If he shows up for camp and isn't healthy enough to practice more than every other day, it's time to move on.

I'm not making any predictions, I'm just putting it out there that this is where it could be heading. When the off-season training program began, Snee was saying how great he felt and looking forward to a rebound from last year. It all sounded quite hopeful. Now he's saying he has his good days and his bad days and he'll see how he feels come training camp. The narrative has changed since March from optimism to pragmatism and I'm just following the latest trajectory to its natural conclusion. But trajectories can change.
RE: RE: If Snee is finally and TRULY  
Mike in Boston : 6/15/2014 8:14 pm : link
In comment 11728663 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 11728583 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


healthy, he'll get a shot to show it on the field. I wouldn't bet against it..

You wouldn't bet against him being truly healthy? The man is missing OTA's because he has "good days and bad days" during non-contact practices. What are the chances that full contact is going to increase his good days to bad days ratio?


Of course the thing that may lead to improvement is not more contact., It is more recovery time post surgery. I suspect even his doctors don't know how that will go over then next month or two, never mind us fans.
Milton - you were the one bitching about the roster spot!  
ZogZerg : 6/15/2014 9:03 pm : link
and accusing the Giants and Snee of playing a charade so he can collect extra money. I'm calling BS on your post and telling you that you are full of shit.

Snee wants to play football and he deserves every chance to give it one last shot.
There are two possibilities: 1. Snee does not play every day because  
Marty in Albany : 6/15/2014 9:16 pm : link
he is still getting healthy, and 2. it is because he is as healthy as he will ever be. I'm going with No. 1 based on what I said the other day:

Quote:
re: Snee.
Maybe the Giants have made the wrong decision about keeping Snee at starter, and maybe not. It could be a 50-50 proposition and the Giants are hoping he can play.

However, IMHO, one thing is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, the Giants are NOT sentimental. If the Giants believed that there was a better alternative to keeping Snee, then he would be gone the same as Ross, TT, Webster, Baas, Tuck, and Kris Adams, whoever the hell he is. The fact that you have recent acquisitions like John Jerry and Weston Richburg (who can play Guard, if Walton is playing Center) indicates that the Giant are quite aware that Snee is temporary, at best.
RE: Milton - you were the one bitching about the roster spot!  
Milton : 6/15/2014 9:41 pm : link
In comment 11729211 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
and accusing the Giants and Snee of playing a charade so he can collect extra money. I'm calling BS on your post and telling you that you are full of shit.

Snee wants to play football and he deserves every chance to give it one last shot.
Besides being a dick without a dick, you're also a moron who can't read. There is no charade going on. I'm not bitching about anything or predicting anything, I'm just presenting a potential scenario as Snee's progress (or lack thereof) continues. Why you needed to act like a jerk, rather than be civil, is a product of your own insecurities and I'm not going to waste more of my time indulging you. So have at it with your straw men if that's what it takes to fluff up your childish ego.
Milton, you need to re-read whay you wrote:  
ZogZerg : 6/16/2014 6:34 am : link
Here you are saying Snee and Giants are just going through motions so he can collect a check:

Quote:

I wonder if this is where things are heading and the Giants (including management, coaches, and Snee) are just going through the motions in order to be in compliance with the legalize....



Here you are bitching about the roster spot
Quote:

p.s.-- I want to play football, too. But I don't think that's reason enough for the Giants to give me a roster spot for training camp.


You need to re-read the shit you are writing before replying to people - Dumb ass!

Snee has been a warrior for this team and deserves every chance to give it a shot.
ZogZerg  
Milton : 6/16/2014 9:04 am : link
What I mean by "going through the motions" is basically following the protocol that will eventually lead to the decision for him to retire and receive the $1M benefit payment that is his due based on the CBA.

And by doing so, the Giants aren't doing him any favors (as others seem to think I'm suggesting). It's a legal responsibility and it would be the same if they cut him today or if they had cut him in March. All that is required for him to fulfill the requirements is that he spend the off-season rehabbing an injury from the previous year and that he be unable to pass a team physical at the beginning of training camp, forcing him to retire. It doesn't have to be the Giants who fail him, it could be any team in the NFL, but this is the classier route. At least that's my understanding of how the protection clause works.

This may even have been a consideration when he accepted the paycut to a reduced salary which "coincidentally" matches the exact amount that would entitle him to the maximum injury benefit (50% of his $2M salary equals the $1M maximum). In this way, the paycut gave the Giants the cap room they desired in free agency without costing Snee any money if his rehab failed and he was forced to retire.

Or I could be completely wrong!!!

I'm just trying to connect the dots as we follow a saga that began with optimism in February and March, but has taken on a less hopeful tone after hearing him talk during the OTA's. As I see it, management is giving Snee every chance possible to prove he is healthy enough for one last rodeo. If not, he collects the $1M retirement benefit (he would be due anyway) and moves on with his life. As for my comment about not giving me a roster spot, I think you were reading too much into a joke. If there's a chance that Snee can return to health, he is well worth a spot on the 90 man training camp roster.

In any case, I apologize for losing my cool in my previous comment. I wasn't trying to make any definitive statement or prediction when I started this thread, I was just hypothesizing. About ten years ago, similar circumstances went down with a player on the Raiders (I forget who it was). Raiders fans and their beat writers were wondering why so-and-so was still on the roster and it turned out the Raiders were just keeping him around until he failed his training camp physical and qualified for his injury benefit payment upon announcing his retirement. Yes, the Raiders could have just cut him in the spring and he could've gone through the hoops of proving he was no longer healthy enough for the game, but this was considered the classier way to treat a longtime veteran of the team.

p.s.-- And in the interest of full disclosure, I posted a similar thread last year about Snee. And last year there were even more tea leaves suggesting it because of the way he put off surgery until after the Pro Bowl and was still rehabbing when training camp rolled around.
last year  
area junc : 6/16/2014 12:02 pm : link
was the teams "thank you wave" to chris snee keeping him on the books at $7m
he started falling apart in 2011.
i appreciate all the snaps he's given us since then but we haven't seen "chris snee" since 2010 just like we haven't seen tuck since then either

adding an element to this situation is that IF weston richburg is as advertised as a top 50 pick, he should be on the field over the snee we've seen the last 2 or 3 years. as noted above the ideal line would likely be schwartz at RG and richburg stepping in at LG. however CS is still being paid double the clockwork 1-year, $1m contract traditionally given to our vet 6th man and we'd be wasting time w/our current rotation

so, I ask again  
fkap : 6/16/2014 12:58 pm : link
is this the 1 mil guarantee in his contract, or is the injury protection clause on top of that?

And, while BB'56 isn't totally off base that missing the OTA's isn't the end of the world, it is rather telling that Snee isn't even healthy enough to go through pretend pretend reps. (most of actual training camp is pretend reps, and OTAs are pretending to be pretend reps. positions that require some running are slightly different, but OL in OTA is basically get in your stance and envision what you would do if someone actually smacked into you. hell, all 150 LB, 5'2" of 54 YO me could survive being a left guard in OTA).
I might even survive  
fkap : 6/16/2014 1:00 pm : link
being a right guard!
fkap  
Milton : 6/16/2014 3:34 pm : link
I'm not aware of any guaranteed money in Snee's contract. All I recall reading is that his salary was reduced to $2M, but it's not guaranteed until he makes the 53 man roster. Maybe somebody else knows better.

And he only qualifies for the $1M injury protection if he fails the pre-training camp physical. If he passes the physical and is later released, he gets nothing.
over the cap  
fkap : 6/16/2014 4:52 pm : link
and our own cap guru Optimus shows a 1 mil guarantee in there. It was talked about when the details of the contract came out, and many of us were disgusted that the Giants would give a guarantee to a guy hoping to make a comeback. I'm hoping that the guarantee is merely the injury clause.
Klaatu's 11:11 yesterday is very likely correct  
JonC : 6/16/2014 4:58 pm : link
Snee's own recent statements would reinforce that they're buying him time, which is not optimal when you're installing a new offensive system. Too, Snee hasn't performed well in a few years and it's all health related, leaving his situation a potential house of cards.
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