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Kiwi whining about NFLdeals

capone : 6/17/2014 8:21 pm
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He apparently feels the team took advantage of his personal situation.  
Big Blue Blogger : 6/18/2014 6:42 am : link
That's understandable. I doubt, though, that the baby factored into Reese's or Abrams's thinking at all.

Kiwanuka has been a good soldier, albeit an overpaid one. We'll see whether he continues to be a good soldier when he is (in his view) underpaid.

From a PSL-holder's perspective, the Romans had it right in their contract with slave gladiators: Winner gets to play again; loser dies. The system guaranteed that the fans got their money's worth on game day.
RE: RE: Personally I think the other sports  
Hammer : 6/18/2014 6:52 am : link
In comment 11732230 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 11732224 capone said:


Quote:


Should be like the NFL



As a fan, yes, but as an athlete, hell no. Imagine your job being like their job. Imagine signing a "contract" that says you need to work where you are for the next five years but at any time your boss can just let you go and not pay you a dime. That is not a contract. Nowhere else in this country is a contract only honored by one side.


Not to mention that no court of law would enforce a contract like this. It's called a unilateral contract and any first year law school student would tell you that they are unenforceable.
Armchair lawyering aside...  
Big Blue Blogger : 6/18/2014 7:14 am : link
...the real point with Kiwanuka is that he's now being paid like quality depth, and I think that's basically what he is at this stage: the third or fourth DE in the rotation, depending on how Moore develops.

Kiwanuka obviously sees himself as more than that - and maybe he has a point, if only based on his versatility.
my thoughts  
Mike in NY : 6/18/2014 7:17 am : link
If players want to be able to rennegotiate any time they have what the player considers a season that is worth more than their current salary then this is the tradeoff
RE: RE: Personally I think the other sports  
BMac : 6/18/2014 7:29 am : link
In comment 11732230 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 11732224 capone said:


Quote:


Should be like the NFL



As a fan, yes, but as an athlete, hell no. Imagine your job being like their job. Imagine signing a "contract" that says you need to work where you are for the next five years but at any time your boss can just let you go and not pay you a dime. That is not a contract. Nowhere else in this country is a contract only honored by one side.


You're as wrong as you can be. I work via contract, and have zero guarantees. Should a project go belly-up, so does my contract. This situation is not common, but it exists on a wide enough scale that it isn't rare, either.
RE: RE: RE: Personally I think the other sports  
section125 : 6/18/2014 7:29 am : link
In comment 11732421 Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 11732230 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


In comment 11732224 capone said:


Quote:


Should be like the NFL



As a fan, yes, but as an athlete, hell no. Imagine your job being like their job. Imagine signing a "contract" that says you need to work where you are for the next five years but at any time your boss can just let you go and not pay you a dime. That is not a contract. Nowhere else in this country is a contract only honored by one side.



Not to mention that no court of law would enforce a contract like this. It's called a unilateral contract and any first year law school student would tell you that they are unenforceable.


Really? Since when does the employer not have the right to let you go? Sometimes there might be a payment for early termination, but unless you have a union to fight for you, companies can terminate a contract any time they chose. Most contracts stipulate reasons for termination and there are readily accessible loopholes that companies can exploit. Unions came about because companies would hire and fire at will, amongst other wrongs.
Next time around, NFLPA needs to see what can be done about these pay cuts, but in the meantime there is guaranteed money being paid out to these athletes and as every BBIer knows the guaranteed money is more important than the length and size of the contract.
In any field when you take a cut you NEVER  
Headhunter : 6/18/2014 7:41 am : link
feel the same about your employer. If you cut someone's comp you are better off getting rid of him/her
non gauranteed nfl contracts suck from player's perspective  
aquidneck : 6/18/2014 7:57 am : link
Pretty sure ex-nfl'ers have a shorter life exoectancy than folks in the general population, so as far as I'm concerned they should get to take a pass on sacrifices for their craft going forward.

That said, the nflpa negotiated the rules with the owners. Players and agents know how the system works. It is what it is until the next contract is negotiated.
Dog  
CT Charlie : 6/18/2014 7:58 am : link
bites man.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 6/18/2014 8:10 am : link
I think the NFL's structure allows for a more efficient market relative to other sports. Guys hit free agency sooner and can get cut for bad performance.

Other sports aren't as efficient and benefit the players significantly more with their contract structures.

I do think NFL players get a raw deal compared to other athletes, especially considering the increased physical risks they take.
RE: In any field when you take a cut you NEVER  
Chef : 6/18/2014 8:24 am : link
In comment 11732432 Headhunter said:
Quote:
feel the same about your employer. If you cut someone's comp you are better off getting rid of him/her


Not necessarily, My hours were cut and I dont want them back.. lol
Sorry if I don't feel bad for you Kiwi.  
Curtis in VA : 6/18/2014 8:24 am : link
It would take me about 15 years to make 1.5 million!

And your production last year wasn't really worth more than that. You don't deserve to make 4.375 million. Sorry but you just aren't that good. If you were, then they wouldn't have asked you to take a pay cut. Sure you've done everything they've asked you to do but that doesn't mean you've done it well.

We've got JPP locked into one side of the DL and when Tuck left there was an opening. The team brought in Robert Ayers to compete instead of locking Kiwi, a former 1st round draft pick, into that spot. That should tell you something.

No one likes to take a pay cut. I'm sure its disappointing. But Kiwi obviously has an inflated opinion of his talent and performance if he thinks he honestly deserves to make 4 million this season.
Odds are this is Kiwi's last season  
Jimmy Googs : 6/18/2014 8:30 am : link
with the Giants.

Agree?
Guarantee  
mdthedream : 6/18/2014 8:36 am : link
Nfl guarantee is in signing bonuses. Kiwi has done nothing his entire career, stop using the excuse that they moved you to LB. Fact is if he was really good at one he would be playing that position. He has no choice but to stay with NY if he wants to continue to play for a longer time. He leaves NY he will be lucky to play one more year before he gets cut and is all done. Proof it on the field and everything will workout.
RE: RE: Personally I think the other sports  
River Mike : 6/18/2014 8:51 am : link
In comment 11732230 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 11732224 capone said:


Quote:


Should be like the NFL



As a fan, yes, but as an athlete, hell no. Imagine your job being like their job. Imagine signing a "contract" that says you need to work where you are for the next five years but at any time your boss can just let you go and not pay you a dime. That is not a contract. Nowhere else in this country is a contract only honored by one side.


Robbie, I disagree. First, it is not only honored by one side. Contracts can do many things depending on how they are written. Like many employment contracts, the NFL contracts set out the terms of employment .... while you are still employed. They state what your duties are and what the compensation is. The employer can terminate your employment if you are not meeting expectations and in the NFL, a player can retire or go to work in a field for which he has trained in college. As far as quitting to go work for another team, even in the real world, non-compete agreements are common.
I'm not trying to say that sports contracts have exact analogies in the real world, just that the aspects that people often point to are not totally unheard of. And yes, sports are different. In the real world, most people don't expect to earn a lifetime's worth of money in 4 years and move on to something else. Could I do what they do? No, but neither can I perform brain surgery or many, many other things. They are special, the money they earn is special, and their contracts are tailored toward maintaining a financially healthy enterprise for many more special athletes to earn that very special money.

Sorry I have to post and run. I'm sure our great many sharp posters will tear into this :)
He should thank God every morning  
Taggart : 6/18/2014 8:54 am : link
For the fact that he's made many millions over the years, and is still pulling $1.5mn, despite the fact that his on-field performance has never been any better than what you'd expect out of a late-round back-up. What's unfair is how much the Giants have paid him relative to his performance. No sympathy here.
There are many, many...  
Wonderphil11 : 6/18/2014 8:55 am : link
people in all income brackets that are overpayed in their current position relative to others and I would bet that all of them don't agree and, if told to take a pay cut or be fired, they may have to accept it but not one of them will say "thank you sir, may I have another" and truly mean it.
I actually disagreed with Robbie on that too  
pjcas18 : 6/18/2014 8:55 am : link
most employees in this country (over 60%) are at-will employees meaning they can be fired for any non-prejudicial reason without cause.

But it's not even a good analogy because every NFL player knows, just like most of us fans and the media - an NFL contract is about the guaranteed $$$. Not the years.

So to say an NFL team can just cut a player whenever they want, sure they can, and they also have to pay them any guaranteed money if they do.

The NFL labor agreement is the worst of the major sports, but I don't shed a tear for them and it's nothing like what the majority of American workers face.
If the players  
Metnut : 6/18/2014 9:10 am : link
didn't like it, they had a golden opportunity only a few years ago to hold out and get changes. Instead, they caved barely a week into the preseason.

Kiwi has been a good Giant, but its hard to feel sympathy for him when he has 8 figures of earnings in a short period and has never been an elite player.

If he didn't like the pay cut, he could've chosen free agency and looked for a better offer elsewhere. All this being said, I hope Kiwi has a monster year and gets paid.
Sick of the Kiwi bashing.  
Randy in CT : 6/18/2014 9:14 am : link
He's changed positions virtually every year and has done what was asked of him. And he's flashed a lot and overall played well.
???????  
Doomster : 6/18/2014 9:18 am : link
From a PSL-holder's perspective, the Romans had it right in their contract with slave gladiators: Winner gets to play again; loser dies. The system guaranteed that the fans got their money's worth on game day.

When was the last time the owners rolled out wagon and threw bread into the crowd?

Take another look at Kiwi's contract....1.5M plus 700K plus 50K plus 125K......should pay for those diapers.....
RE: Sick of the Kiwi bashing.  
BrettNYG10 : 6/18/2014 9:20 am : link
In comment 11732496 Randy in CT said:
Quote:
He's changed positions virtually every year and has done what was asked of him. And he's flashed a lot and overall played well.


Kiwi had a mediocre year last year, but I think he may have been our best defender in 2010 prior to his injury.

He's sacrificed personal glory for the well-being of the team. He probably could have been a Pro Bowler if he stayed at DE his entire career.

He's been severely underrated in past years.
I like and appreciate Kiwi, but I agree with Capone.  
Victor in CT : 6/18/2014 9:20 am : link
I'd like to see other sports work this way. NAsh would be getting a nice paycut about now. Think of all the baseball contracts that are disastrous.
RE: Sick of the Kiwi bashing.  
Curtis in VA : 6/18/2014 9:37 am : link
In comment 11732496 Randy in CT said:
Quote:
He's changed positions virtually every year and has done what was asked of him. And he's flashed a lot and overall played well.


I just don't think he was ever really that good. Its not like he's the first player to move from one position to another. He didn't forget how to be a defensive end when he switched to LB. He just wasn't ever that good at it. He's had a few good games but has never been consistent and his run defense has always been poor. He is being paid accordingly.
And its not  
Curtis in VA : 6/18/2014 9:37 am : link
"bashing"
Brett - I don't know if i ever saw pro bowler  
Jimmy Googs : 6/18/2014 9:50 am : link
when looking at Kiwi on the field. Maybe for one game versus Pittsburgh a long time ago.

I never bought the argument his DE skill-set was impaired by moving to LB for some time. And it very well may have improved his recognition skills.

I like Kiwi  
nicky43 : 6/18/2014 9:50 am : link
But I think it's ridiculous to whine about a deal that nobody was holding a gun to his head to sign. Man up!

It is my opinion that they are ALL making way too much money. I used to be able to justify how much money they made by thinking about how much risk to bodily injury and future life style their play forced upon them. But now that they just turn around and sue the NFL every chance they get pretending they never knew this was dangerous...LOL!... give me a break!

Is there a standard buy out clause on a NFL contract?  
Bramton1 : 6/18/2014 10:04 am : link
There is something somewhat unfair that in an NFL contract, only one party is technically bound to it. If a team wants to cut a player, so be it and deal with the salary cap implications. The player gets nothing more. If a player wants out, his only courses of action are (a) Demand a trade, (b) Retire from the league, or (c) Refuse to report and rack up fines, but eventually you'll be back where you started when the season isn't counted against your contract.

But no way should NFL contracts be fully guaranteed. Imagine if Player A signs a 6 year deal, and gets a career ending injury in Season 2. While that player could retire and wipe away his contract, there would be an economic advantage to claiming to be rehabbing long enough to earn an extra full season or two of pay. Meanwhile, the team has a ton of dead money against the cap for this player, affecting their ability to field a competitive team.

Worse yet, imagine if a veteran signs one a 2-year deal late in his career, but his skills break down enough in Year 1 that he becomes a liability. But if said player wants to play Year 2 (and earn Year 2 money), not only does that affect the cap, but it holds up a roster spot that the team would likely need otherwise.

If there isn't one already, have a buy out clause standard in the contracts. If you want to cut a player before his contract ends, not only are there cap implications, but the player gets some amount as well.

Frankly, I'd like to see some buy-out structure with MLB as well. Make the contracts guaranteed, so a team can't just cut a player scot-free, but have a buy-out clause than would allow a team to void remaining years in a contract.
RE: Brett - I don't know if i ever saw pro bowler  
BrettNYG10 : 6/18/2014 10:05 am : link
In comment 11732558 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
when looking at Kiwi on the field. Maybe for one game versus Pittsburgh a long time ago.

I never bought the argument his DE skill-set was impaired by moving to LB for some time. And it very well may have improved his recognition skills.


Perhaps I'm giving too much weight to Ernie's comments about him.

And my use of probably may have been too aggressive as well. Impossible to gain conviction in that, of course. I definitely buy that argument, though. He had to drop weight to go to LB, IIRC, and those constant changes likely had an impact on him.

Curtis: I think you're seriously underrating how good he was in 2010. Maybe I'm nuts.
He got off to a hot start in 2010  
Curtis in VA : 6/18/2014 10:49 am : link
but he only played in 3 games.

He hasn't had a decent year since 2008. He's had some injuries here and there and maybe the neck injury did more damage than has been made public. I dunno. He definitely had potential. Maybe the light was about to go on in 2010.
Interesting  
Bernie : 6/18/2014 10:53 am : link
long thread with lots of posts, so admittedly, I may have missed some points. But I find it interesting how he does not reference the fact that he received a signing bonus at the beginning of his contract. That is the guaranteed portion. The back end of contracts are always subject to the player producing earlier in the contract. Don't live up to it, and you will be cut or asked to take a pay-cut. Live up to the contract and you will be in the drivers seat for your next negotiation. Such is life.
unfair to cut a player  
old man : 6/18/2014 10:57 am : link
is like unfair to terminate an employee because of budget restraints in the real world(aka salary cap), or because of under-performance in the real world.

I'd cut him and let him find an NFL job somewhere else, or in the real world at Mickey D's in Seattle at $15/hr; it's not like he's been a major contributor the last few years.
he had the chance to be the starter  
GMANinDC : 6/18/2014 11:07 am : link
but got beat out by Osi..That's not the NFL problem..he got paid like a DE when he was playing LB..He took the deal..He should be mad at his agent for taking the deal if anything..

That being said, we as fans are always talking about paying a guy "the vet minimum"..
No problem with what he said unless it translates into  
Big Blue '56 : 6/18/2014 11:15 am : link
further lack of productivity..
Kiwi's right.  
WideRight : 6/18/2014 12:06 pm : link
The NFL is a horrible place to do business. They will screw loyalty all for the benefit of the "cap", which is synonymous with owner's profits. I hate the owners too, but really, he should be mad at the NFLPA for misrepresenting their interests.
Hmmm  
River Mike : 6/18/2014 12:34 pm : link
Quote:
The NFL is a horrible place to do business
That must be why they can't get any college players to sign up. Its amazing that these teams can find enough bodies to fill their rosters!
Its a great place to play, just like college  
WideRight : 6/18/2014 12:37 pm : link
but a f'n awful place to do business, unless you are an owner.
RE: Its a great place to play, just like college  
Bernie : 6/18/2014 1:26 pm : link
In comment 11733159 WideRight said:
Quote:
but a f'n awful place to do business, unless you are an owner.


Awful place to do business? TV contracts alone would indicate otherwise.
RE: Its a great place to play, just like college  
Curtis in VA : 6/18/2014 1:39 pm : link
In comment 11733159 WideRight said:
Quote:
but a f'n awful place to do business, unless you are an owner.


Oh come on. Most of these guys are millionaires. I don't know how it compares to other professional sport leagues, but I'd hardly call it "awful."

Not to mention all the opportunities it opens to reel in the cash if you can market yourself. Especially in a market like New York.

Oh the horror... being a millionaire professional athlete in one of the biggest markets in the country. Maybe even the world?

If you play well, you get rewarded for it. He should be grateful they even offered to keep him here instead of just cutting is overrated butt. Probably done as a favor so that he WOULDN'T have to uproot his family like he said he didn't want to do.

Take your money and shaddap Kiwi. :-)
Kiwi  
Glover : 6/18/2014 2:29 pm : link
is not the guy to be publicly complaining about how he had to take a pay cut, but he is right overall. Football is the most lucrative professional sport in America, and the owners have it too good. No other professional sports league can just throw contracts into the garbage when they feel they no longer work out for the team. Players can't withhold their services if they feel they have outperformed their pay rate, fines are too high, players realize quickly that their fight is just going to lose them even more money. Its a cold business, and that is the way it is, but I find it hard to listen to people who say "tough shit" to these players because they feel that even the lowest paid NFL players are rich. They mean a lot more to the companies they work for than your average employee at your average company. Billionaire owners are supported and players (most are not millionaires by the way) are the villains. Who you watching? Owners or players?
I wouldn't say that to most of them but I would definitely say that to  
Curtis in VA : 6/18/2014 2:31 pm : link
him.
RE: Kiwi  
River Mike : 6/18/2014 4:21 pm : link
In comment 11733508 Glover said:
Quote:
is not the guy to be publicly complaining about how he had to take a pay cut, but he is right overall. Football is the most lucrative professional sport in America, and the owners have it too good. No other professional sports league can just throw contracts into the garbage when they feel they no longer work out for the team. Players can't withhold their services if they feel they have outperformed their pay rate, fines are too high, players realize quickly that their fight is just going to lose them even more money. Its a cold business, and that is the way it is, but I find it hard to listen to people who say "tough shit" to these players because they feel that even the lowest paid NFL players are rich. They mean a lot more to the companies they work for than your average employee at your average company. Billionaire owners are supported and players (most are not millionaires by the way) are the villains. Who you watching? Owners or players?


I'm watching the NY Giants team brought to me by the owners.
Players come and go. They move on, But the Giants are still the Giants.
Curtis  
WideRight : 6/18/2014 5:15 pm : link
Right now you expect to work another 15 years and make 1.5M.

What if you go to work tomorrow and your boss tells he's lowering your pay by 66%, and your only recourse is to leave? The would pretty much describe a shitstain of a work enviroment, no?

Take a hike or lose 1M, and thats OK?
They are rich today  
WideRight : 6/18/2014 5:17 pm : link
But 74% are broke in 10 years, because they can't manage their money. And its much harder to manage money when income is unpredictable.
Not sure why anyone would side with the NFL and Owners  
Amtoft : 6/18/2014 5:48 pm : link
Basically They can sign a player to a 5 year 25 Million dollar contract. In year 3 the player can't get out of the deal is stuck because he signed a contract. However the team can just cut you and they no longer owe you any more money... How is that fair at all? Basically at anytime they can release you from you contract with no more money given to you, but you can't just release them. It is a one sided screwed deal for the players. People get upset about them holding out and trying to get more money especially guaranteed money, but what other choice do they have. At any point they can be cut and anything that is owed to them in the contract that is not guaranteed is gone. If the owners want to make it a get out of a bad deal for free then why shouldn't that player have that same option to get our the contract at anytime.
Lets see...  
River Mike : 6/18/2014 6:13 pm : link
Quote:
What if you go to work tomorrow and your boss tells he's lowering your pay by 66%, and your only recourse is to leave? The would pretty much describe a shitstain of a work enviroment, no?[quote]

Oh, you mean like the real world?

[quote] They can sign a player to a 5 year 25 Million dollar contract. In year 3 the player can't get out of the deal is stuck because he signed a contract. However the team can just cut you and they no longer owe you any more money


Again, like the real world? The player can quit at any time. The player can go to another league .... oh, they all pay less than the NFL? How horrible the NFL is for paying so much more than other leagues! Well, maybe the player can enter the field for which he was educated in college. Oh, that pays less also? The NFL should be investigated for paying so much!
Amtoft - it is weighted toward the Owners for certain but  
Jimmy Googs : 6/18/2014 6:29 pm : link
its not like the players don't have anything...

1)Players get a whole lot of money guaranteed upfront. How many jobs do that in the world...prepaid salary?

2)Yes, they can be cut at anytime but in a capped league, the team is "penalized" for doing so by what it can spend and still has to find another player to do the job, and spend more guaranteed money.

3) Face ultimate facts...players get nice contracts with an expectation of play. When that play doesn't measure the pay then the contract may be terminated. But teams do not often just cut willingly without a drop in performance/confidence.

But I agree...its good to be the King.



Jimmy, better king than  
Bill in UT : 6/18/2014 6:33 pm : link
pissboy
I agree, that whole pissboy job  
Jimmy Googs : 6/18/2014 7:30 pm : link
must have really sucked.

I mean you got carry around this stinky urine filled pot all day, you have to come running for a bunch of whiny aristocrats, you got stand there as some guy takes out his johnson in front of you, and then you have to wait for the shake.

And you know that some guys missed at the beginning or end and you got hit.

Now that's a job you need guaranteed money...
Kiwi has a point and he isn't whining, he is just speaking up  
The Tempest : 6/18/2014 7:41 pm : link
Most of the negative comments on what Mathias Kiwanuka had to say revolve around two things: Well he makes a lot of money (he makes more than me) so he needs to STFU. The other is Well if he was a better player he wouldn't have this problem.

The worst reasons I can think of for having a problem about what Mathias Kiwanuka said about NFL contracts. Aren't we all in the same boat though?

It sucks for him and he should have really planned out his financial future better. This happens a lot with professional athletes who turn into overnight millionaires and expect to make as much if not more forever.
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