I appreciate all the good reasons for caution - even pessimism - about the Giants' offensive line after five years of inexorable decline. Still, I think it's worth remembering that the unit's last run of dominance began with similar uncertainty. Just for fun, I've identified a few parallels between 2014 and 2005. While these analogies are largely subjective, I think they offer some basis for hope, if not outright optimism.
THE SECOND-YEAR GEM WHO SHOULD GET EVEN BETTER.
2005: Chris Snee
2014: Justin Pugh
After a few rough games, Pugh outperformed more-heralded rookies - just like Snee. (Remember Robert Gallery? Shawn Andrews? Vernon Carey?) The needle is pointing straight up for the young RT (yes, RT), short arms and all.
THE HEADLINE ACQUISITION WHO'S JUST HITTING HIS STRIDE.
2005: Kareem McKenzie
2014: Geoff Schwartz
Although McKenzie was more heralded - and more expensive - than Schwartz, the purpose of both acquisitions is to stabilize a part of the line that has been in flux for years. One twist with Schwartz is that we don't know exactly where he will settle in. (In this sense, Schwartz also fills the David Diehl role: a big part of his value lies in his versatility.) For now, he's penciled in at LG. I think he'll wind up at RG by 2015. Either way, he figures to play a key role in Act III of the Tom & Eli Show.
THE TALENTED, EXPENSIVE YOUNG LT WHO JUST CAN"T STAY HEALTHY OR KEEP HIS HEAD IN THE GAME AFTER GETTING PAID.
2005: Luke Petitgout
2014: Will Beatty
Plagued by back problems, Petitgout never regained his 2002 contract-year form. He was off the team by 2007, and out of football a year later. Still, aside from one embarrassing performance in Seattle, he was a key part of the resurgent line in 2005, and played respectably in 2006 before another injury ended his Giant career. Jerry Reese has done what he can to hedge the risk of counting on Will Beatty. He's still the left tackle of the present and immediate future, and Reese is at least a year away from cutting bait as he did with Petitgout. Even if Beatty never plays up to his contract, he can at least be what Petitgout was in 2005 and 2006, which might be good enough.
THE GUTSY YOUNG INTERIOR LINEMAN WHO WON'T QUIT UNTIL THEY AMPUTATE HIS LEG.
2005: Rich Seubert
2014: J.D. Walton
Seubert and Walton both suffered devastating lower leg fractures early in their respective third seasons, then endured infections and other complications that sidelined them for an additional year. Seubert spent 2005 and part of 2006 as a beloved utility man ("69 is eligible!") before returning to the lineup for good in 2007. The Giants obviously hope Walton's recovery is farther along, and by all indications it is. His injury certainly wasn't as horrific. Few are. If all goes well, Walton will be less 2005 Rich Seubert than 2005 Shaun O'Hara: the overachieving center who sets the tone for an overachieving line.
Unlike the 2005 Giants, the 2014 squad has a highly-regarded rookie, Weston Richburg, waiting in the wings to mitigate the gambles on comebacks by Walton and Snee. Lastly, they have stopgap veterans - Charles Brown and John Jerry - in the Bob Whitfield role, and an intriguing young reserve in Brandon Mosley who still has the ingredients of a Diehl-like utility man.
Could it all go in the crapper like 2013? Sure. My point is simply that the cusp of excellence doesn't look all that different from the brink of disaster; so I'm choosing to see the half of the glass that's full - at least until the pads come on.
Other than the Snee/Pugh comparison, which is accurate, there really are no relevant parallels among the others.
With that said, I hope you are right.
Ummm no. Any scenario with Brewer making the roster would be pretty terrible.
Giants will likely keep 9 OL on the 53-man roster and there are about 12 or so guys with more talent and upside than Brewer on the team right now.
But somehow I was reminded of horrors of i2003 OL.
Wayne Lucier, Ian Allen and Chris Bober starters?
Guess Bober wasn't so bad.
Starters?
might be worse than 2013 - ( New Window )
It is what it is but the Giants are stuck w him as Blogger mentioned for a year or two before that can mope on if he stays below par.. He's 29. He's not going to get magically stronger and to me its a huge red flag that he fell apart so badly. Sure the rest of the line sucked but he got abused way too often. As bad as the Allen play looked I thought Ziggy Ansah made him look worse. He needs help regardless IMO
Reese doesn't value the OL like he does the DL, WR, and DBs. His history shows significantly more FA dollars and early picks to those other three groups as he does w the OL. Maybe w high picks like Pugh and Richberg along w the additions of Schwartz and Walton he's made all the right moves but its w a lot of caution that Im hoping(praying) this year will be a lot better.
Another, simpler way to compare is by position. From that point of view, the only spot where the line looked significantly better going into 2005 was at RG. (Ironically, it's the same guy, nine years older and pretty much done.) You can make a case for RT, because McKenzie had more of a track record than Pugh. At center, Shaun O'Hara entered 2005 as little more than a decent journeyman, and he had missed a month during his first year in NY. The Walton/Richburg tandem looks just as good, and has more long-term upside. I don't think anyone anticipated O'Hara's emergence as a Pro Bowl center.
2014: ??????????
BBB - yes, I agree he is about a "D". I actually think he would look good in an Eagle or Redskin uniform.
What do you think the Giants would have to give up for them to take him?
The best guard tandem on the roster might be Schwartz on the right and Mosley on the left. But Schwartz will stay at LG until Snee officially loses his job - maybe longer, since John Jerry could be next in line at RG.
Of course, none of them are exactly the same situation, but there are some similarities.
Brewer can and should be replaced by one of the cuts from another team. I have to believe there will be at least one guard cut somewhere who is decidedly better than Brewer.
I don't think they missed a conversion those years. That was Jacobs in his prime.
4thQtr 1:26 2nd and 1 DAL 3 Brandon Jacobs up the middle for 2 yards (tackle by Roy Williams). Brandon Jacobs fumbles (forced by Roy Williams), recovered by Roy Williams at DAL-1
2006 vs. Dallas:
2ndQtr 1:30 4th and 1 DAL 24 Brandon Jacobs left end for -3 yards (tackle by DeMarcus Ware)
You can argue that he had the first one made, but fumbled. The second was just a mess.
A couple of drives later, Coughlin abandoned the running game and Barber went apesh!t.
1stQtr 8:17 3rd and 2 CAR 35 Brandon Jacobs right guard for 1 yard (tackle by Na'il Diggs)
2nd Qtr 0:48 2nd and 1 CAR 1 Brandon Jacobs left tackle for -1 yards (tackle by Shaun Williams). Brandon Jacobs fumbles (forced by Shaun Williams), recovered by Jeremy Shockey at CAR-2
3rd Qtr 11:29 3rd and 1 CAR 11 Brandon Jacobs right tackle for no gain (tackle by Na'il Diggs)
3rd Qtr 7:42 2nd and 2 CAR 2 Brandon Jacobs right guard for -1 yards (tackle by Shaun Williams and Kris Jenkins)
That was the fourth straight week Jacobs failed to convert in short yardage, although the Giants finally managed to scrape out a win, against the immortal Chris Weinke.
Here's what I thought:
Petitgout: Shame about his back. He was pretty good for a couple of years.
Diehl: JAG
O'Hara: JAG
Snee: He showed some potential before his glands went haywire. The baby daddy thing could still blow up.
McKenzie: I guess he's OK. The Jets didn't seem very concerned about losing him.
Seubert: Just hope he can live a normal life with that leg.
You're the one whose happy memories seem to have been erased by Lacuna. Or maybe you haven't seen the film, and you're just using the title as material for your usual tired schtick.
I think you are right about Beatty. He had the same issue in college too, I believe. Didn't really shine until he had to for the draft. He seems like a guy that needs to be motivated by something in order to play up to his ability. I'm not really a fan of his but I do hope someone is able to light a fire under his butt.
Reese doesn't value the OL like he does the DL, WR, and DBs. His history shows significantly more FA dollars and early picks to those other three groups as he does w the OL. Maybe w high picks like Pugh and Richberg along w the additions of Schwartz and Walton he's made all the right moves but its w a lot of caution that Im hoping(praying) this year will be a lot better.
That's not entirely fair. Reese inherited a great OL and thus the need to spend FA money and picks wasn't there until really the last 2-3 years. And unlike DL/WR/CB, backup OL only contribute if there are injuries. Depth at those other positions are far more vital since they see significant snaps each week.
And it's not like Reese has completely ignored the OL. He drafted: Beatty (2nd), Petrus (5th), Brewer (4th), Mosley (4th), McCants (6th), Pugh (1st), Herman (7th), and Richburg (2nd). The problems are: 1) Beatty's injuries (he was at least an average LT, if not top 10, in 2012), 2) the inability to (so far) develop a single quality interior OL from the likes of Petrus/Brewer/Mosley/McCants/Herman.
From early reports, the offense will also have a much greater emphasis on the short passing game. Plus (hopefully) some quality, healthy RBs. Both those things should help the OL and offense overall.
- Among the league’s best on passes in the 5-10 yard range (+6.5).
- Threw best between the numbers (+3.8).
- Did his best work when throwing in <= 2.0 seconds (+2.6) and the 3.1-to-3.5-second range (+5.0).
- Best routes were slants (+6.9), ins (+5.4), and comebacks (+5.3).
article - ( New Window )
2010: O'Hara
2011: McKenzie
2011-2013: Diehl
2012-2014: Snee
McKenzie is debatable. He was still pretty good in 2010, fell off a cliff in 2011 and was not retained. The rest were declining noticeably before their final years in blue. As others have said, there were contract issues and it's not as though there were great alternatives in the pipeline. On the other hand, the same folks who chose to keep the old vets were responsible for the contracts, and for restocking the pipeline.
This year, the 2008 loyalty slate is just about clean. Snee is still around, but they aren't paying him much or counting on him. So maybe the lesson has been learned.
You can argue that a 2nd/3rd round pick should've been spent on G/C sometime in the 2011-2012 time frame, but it's not like Snee/Diehl were old for OL.
Doomster : 6/24/2014 8:41 am : link
the eternal sunshine of the spotless mind....
Doomster: How about addressing the topic constructively?
Big Blue Blogger : 6/24/2014 8:55 am : link
In June 2005, what was you opinion of the Giants' offensive line? Try to flush out hindsight and remember what you thought at the time.
Why? Is this suddenly the modus operandi of BBI?
As for The Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind...
Big Blue Blogger : 6/24/2014 9:02 am : link
...the title is ironic. The point of the film is there's more joy (and wisdom) in remembering the past than in erasing it, even if certain memories are painful.
You're the one whose happy memories seem to have been erased by Lacuna. Or maybe you haven't seen the film, and you're just using the title as material for your usual tired schtick.
To know me is to love me....