Ron Dayne contrast with Andre Williams

Never was a good fit for us.
Shocked at his size how he could not move the pile.
Our OL was not good at all.
Tiki's speed saved me more times than not.

I recall when playing the Niners in the playoffs Dayne just checked in and Collins launched a fastball off Ron's head from less than ten years away. Great example, of a player doing well within his college system than never translated into the NFL. An old story that seems to stay the same over the years.

I seem to remember it being fairly controversial.

In comment 11750582 Csonka said:

Quote:

but the scouts didn't? pretty high pick for someone just running through huge holes that anyone could run through. he was a really good college RB. couldn't make his own holes in the NFL, but not many can.

What we all saw was confirmed by his NFL career.

In comment 11750687 Big Blue Blogger said:

Quote:

I hope he can pick up the passing game as quickly as Alexander did.

Alexander! That's who I was trying to remember! Clearly looked better than Dayne and many had us taking him. I think that the Giants thought he played too much like Barber though so we wanted a back who was a better complement. BTW, great example of forcing a pick at a position.

blast from the past discussion, the comparison between Dayne and Williams is just awful.

many of us wanted Sean Alexander. I threw the remote when they took Dayne.

1st round had quite a few very good players in it. Might want to take another look.

If they came from a Big Ten school, they weren't worth a crap.

I agree that the Giants blew it big time with the Dayne but Alexander, in my opinion, is nothing like Williams. Alexander was a cut back runner like Barber just bigger. Williams is a move the pile runner. The Giants passed on Alexander because Fassel wanted more of a power back to complement Barber and Accorsi went along. I remember reading Gil Brandt knocking the Dayne pick because the Giants thought they were getting another Jerome Bettis and Dayne was nothing like Bettis (or Williams for that matter). Dayne would try to avoid contact. Runners like Bettis and Williams would wear out a defense by running you over. And, as noted above, Williams was a 4th round pick. Dayne was the 11th pick in round 1

comparing Williams to Dayne is apples and oranges....

Heisman winner, and first round pick, who was a bust....

The 2014 draft sucked for RB's....one wasn't picked until the 54th selection, and this guy wasn't taken until the fourth round.....

I mean, someone drafted out of all those RB's may turn out to be a Bradshaw or a Morris, but Williams is still a huge question mark until he gets out there and proves he belongs....as of right now, all the Giants have is Jennings.....

that wasn't "controversial"? I was also in the Alexander camp (as well as the Graham camp the following year, so I was batting .500 those years), but I'm fairly confident that Dayne was the most popular guy heading into the draft.

Remember a few other guys like Bullock and Abraham (as a LB)being thrown around, but we were very focused on RB, with Dayne being the popular pick.

We picked too low for there to be a consensus guy in 2001 pre-draft.

Dayne was not running anyone over in college. He was known more for his quick feet and running behind an awesome OL. The Giants misused him from the start because with his size they tried making him a power back, even though all the scouting reports, including their own, said otherwise.

Dayne was NOT seen as a power back coming out. The scouts never said as much and even the Giants, who drafted him, acknowledged as much on draft day. However, when play began, they started using him as a short yardage/power back, which he wasn't.

That said, I think it was still a possibility that he could have been successful in the NFL. I don't think he was ever going to be an elite RB, but he could have been better than he was. I feel like the same can be said of a lot of guys from the mid-90s to 2000 drafts for the Giants. Reeves ruined Hampton, who could have been great. I think Dave Brown actually could have been a decent QB, but also was ruined by Reeves.

like Rodney Hampton or Jerome Bettis. Gary Brown had endeared himself to fans for a season until he got into that accident. Dayne had some qualities about him that drew similarities.

Unfortunately for him, those similarities were of the appearance variety and not talent.

Its ok. We still ended up with the best RB in the history of the franchise. It just wasn't Dayne or Alexander.

Dayne isn't around anymore. So, a more relevant comparison might be against 2 recent 2d Rounders, using official measureables:

Eddie Lacy 5'11" 231 lbs. 4.64 in the 40, 1.65 in 10 yds. and 7.33 in the 3 cone.

Carlos Hyde 6'0" 230 lbs. 4.61 in the 40, 1.69 in 10 yds. and 9'6" broad jump.

Andre Williams 5'11" 230 lbs. 4.50 in 40 yds. 1.58 in 10 yds. 10'9" broad jump 7.27 in 3-cone.

Other RBs in the NFC East are:

Lesean McCoy 5'11" 204 lbs. 4.50 in 40 yds. 1.52 in 10 yds. 8'11" in broad jump and 6.82 in the 3-cone

Alfred Morris 5'10" 219 lbs. 4.61 in 40 yds. 1.60 in 10 yds. 9'9" in broad jump and 7.01 in 3-cone.

DeMarco Murray 6'0" 213 lbs. 4.37 in 40 yds. 1.52 in 10 yds. 10'10" in the broad jump 7.28 in 3-cone.

So, eliminating DeMarco Murray, who's off the charts except for the 3-cone, Andre Williams is as fast as McCoy in the 40 and faster than the other backs at the same distance; McCoy is faster in 10 yds. than Williams but is 25 lbs. lighter weight but otherwise Williams is faster than the others; Williams about the same in the broad jump as McCoy but better than the others; Williams is only better than Eddie Lacy in the 3-come.

So, IMO what do the measureables tell us about Williams;

At 230 lbs. he's very fast in the 40- as fast as McCoy and faster than Lacy, Hyde and Morris. So, very good deep speed.

Faster than Lacy, Hyde and Morris in 10 yds. So, he's quicker off the snap of the ball and to the LOS than they are, IMO.

Much better than Lacy, Morris and McCoy in the broad jump. IMO that should mean more explosive, that is, quicker out of his cuts than they are.

Only better than Lacy in the 3-cone. IMO that should indicate that Williams is not as shifty or agile as the others.

In summary, based on the measureables, a TERRIFIC 4th Round pick. He has better measureables than Lacy or Morris- let's hope he turns out to be as good a football player with the same production and better than Hyde, drafted this year in the 2d Round.

"Thunder and Lightning" thing is one of the stupidest things I have seen in my 40+ years as a Giants fan. (And I lived through the 1970s, when the Giants had plenty of stupid.) It was obvious from the moment he stepped on an NFL playing field that Dayne not a power back and the Giants' attempts to use him that way were just wishful thinking. Also terrible coaching: Part of a coach's job is to recognize a player's strengths and weaknesses, to exploit the strengths and hide the weaknesses. It's up to the opposing coach to find the weaknesses and exploit them. Fassel et al did their opponents' job for them by misusing Dayne and exposing his weaknesses.

Remember, though, that despite all that he had a decent rookie season. From his second year on he spiraled downward.

I think this Giants staff is smarter than that and will not try to put Williams into a role he's not suited for. Though I have to say they didn't do a great job developing Mathias Kiwanuka in that respect. I think they set him back by making him a linebacker.

off a quick youtube highlight watch and nothing more, Williams can definitely use more power to run over DBs and break tackles downfield, but the comparison at the LOS isn't that far fetches. They both ran through some monster truck holes in college.

.

that Dayne had no power or ability to go through contact. I hear it referenced a lot by fans. In college he did have a great line, and huge holes to run through, he also gained over half his yards after contact. Now that contact may have been a linebacker getting an arm on him or whatever but I don't buy into the theory that when Dayne came out of college he was a known fatty with happy feet who was just lucky to have a great line.

He had some skill, never really improved at the NFL level and wasn't a powerback in college, but he did run through contact in college and was highly regarded when drafted.

His youtube college highlights show some physical runs as well. See page 4 and 6 of his bio about his physical college play, yards after contact, etc... Dayne was a college superstar who busted in the NFL. Not a lucky and soft college player.
Ron Dayne Bio - ( New Window )

Not much turns up on google from that far back. But I'm fairly confident that this universal idea that he was never seen as a "power" back coming out is very much revisionist history. Logic would dictate that the Giants didn't draft a 250 lb "finesse" back with the 11th pick...

Coming out, most scouting reports still gave Dayne a decent chance at success. However, it was made clear he was NOT a power back. Some warned that the Heisman should not be overvalued when considering him.

He had value, but necessarily what you expect from a traditional Heisman winner. He was not being touted as a "fatty with happy feet" as you put it. But, scouting reports were consistent in pointing out his mammoth OL that created big holes. To accomplish what he did, there still had to be a lot of talent, and talent worthy of an NFL draft pick.

Dayne.

They seldom opened even reasonable holes for him to run through. The Oline seldom was able to push the defense off the line of scrimmage. With no holes and no offensive push, Dayne was often caught in the backfield for a loss. He was not going to run sweeps with any success and the Giants didn't have the personnel for sweeps anyway.

I don't think that Alexander would have played much better if we had drafted him unless Alexander had better foot speed and could cut back.

BTW while Williams had the most running yardage last year, Dayne had the most running yardage in college football history.

but it seemed to be overlooked somehow.

I agree to a point. The OL was really bad. But, he was also used more as a short yardage/power back. There is a reason the backfield was nicknamed Thunder and Lightning. Don't forget, this was still a time when Tiki was trying to establish himself as a full time, every down RB.

Dayne did have some success in both Denver and Houston when he received consistent carries. Although, in both instances they came as the result of an injury to the starter.

that he barely made it to the field in the SB. Didn't he come in for something like 3 snaps, which was not the offense that got them to the SB in the first place.

Fassel's "Smarts". (-:)

In comment 11751034 Matt M. said:

Quote:

Coming out, most scouting reports still gave Dayne a decent chance at success. However, it was made clear he was NOT a power back. Some warned that the Heisman should not be overvalued when considering him. He had value, but necessarily what you expect from a traditional Heisman winner. He was not being touted as a "fatty with happy feet" as you put it. But, scouting reports were consistent in pointing out his mammoth OL that created big holes. To accomplish what he did, there still had to be a lot of talent, and talent worthy of an NFL draft pick.

I'm not saying Dayne was seen as can't miss or was a good NFL talent. But he did have talent, did have some sporadic sucess and stayed in the league a while. I just hate the revisionist history about Dayne. I remember on here when Dwayne Jarret and Brian Robiskie were highly touted can't miss guys and Steve Smith was sure to bust. And I can remember myself touting Adam Terry as a 10 year starter at Left Tackle and Matt Jones as an unstoppable WR. I really doubt there was a lot of fans, scouts, and analysts that viewed Dayne as poorly as many of the fans on this thread say they did at the time (and still do).

On that, I agree. Although, he was not the most popular pick, I think it is very revisionist history to sit here and say he was destined to suck in the NFL and it was very clear to everyone. That simply isn't true.

Dayne simply wasn't a good NFL back. Sure, feeding Ron F'n Dayne the rock would have prevented that D kicking we suffered through in that SB.

.

RD ran a zone scheme in college where we ran a man scheme here. They are two totally different styles which was a big downfall for Dayne here. I remember Dayne in Houston having a big game and it wasn't a surprise as they were a zone team. Like others have said, Dayne like to bounce a lot of plays. That's what happens in a zone scheme. You get started in one direction, when you see/anticipate a hole you put your foot in the ground and go. In a man scheme you have to trust that your whole will be where it is designed or be agile enough to adjust mid-play. Dayne never anticipated the hole which led to him bouncing a lot of plays.

To is that both players were not known for their pass catching prowess, which can tip your hand a bit in the pros when they are/were in the game.

I did not say feeding him the ball over and over would have won that game. What I said was, we had an offense where he was on the offense for a fairly consistent number of snaps each game. He got on the field for 3 snaps and we ran an offense completely different than what got us there and we refused to adjust during the game. The coaching staff was completely intimidated by the Ravens D before the game even started. But, that is a whole other story.

That doesn't change how Dayne was used, which was more short yardage/power situations. I never thought he was going to be an elite back in the NFL. But, I do think he had enough talent to be a decent back and he showed flashes of that once he left here.

Many interesting comments appreciated. I never saw Dayne perform as a power back in the NFL. It seemed when he cleared to some open space he had good speed. 20 days to camp and I can't wait..My 44th season as a Giant fan.

My guess is that he is most reminiscent of Joe Montgomery. And Montgomery would've been a real good one if it hadn't been for injuries.

I wanted Stockar McDougle (or Julian Peterson).

heart. You can't blame the scouts, they had no idea he was going to cash it in. Dayne was an aberration.

I recall TC saying when he took over that he wanted Dayne to stop dancing around when he got the ball. Long story short, Dayne was off the team 12 months later.

as I recall is that Alexander and Tiki were considered "similar" backs by the Giants and that Dayne could provide more of a between the tackle and large back runs to compliment Tiki. I was upset, I had followed Alexander at Alabama and felt he was the better talent and should've been the pick. Big mistake and obviously Dayne never lived up to expectations and Alexander had the better career.

was better than Dayne at nearly everything. He didn't have the Big 10's sis boom bah and fawning press behind him.

Williams is a very good back and a solid value in the 4th round. I think he he was somewhat under the radar at BC and will be the starter getting the bulk of the carries part way into the season.

I've ever seen. I can't recall how many face first pathetic flops over the line of scrimmage he had, but it probably set the all time Giants record. As has been said many times already, sticking your shoulder into a guy and saying GTF out of my way is much more about desire than size.

If he surprises the world and becomes a Terrell Davis (former 6th rounder), why then, I think we'd all be ecstatic.

Davis showed he could play at a high level, but he was mostly the product of one of the Denver zone blocking system and outstanding members of the O-line . In the mean-time Ron Dayne labored behind Mouse McNally's pretenders (save for Pro Bowler Ron Stone, none were worthy to wear the uniform).

Same can be said of Alexander. He sure looked ALL-WORLD for a while didn't he ?

Then, over-night he looked PATHETIC; he didn't have Pro Bowl - ALL PROS Steve Hutchinson, Walter Jones and Mack Strong blocking for him.

The way they just gave him #27 and he RUINED the jersey.. Thank God Jacobs redeemed it..

"Ron Dayne runs through the line like he is looking for a soft spot to land"

He lasted until the sixth round because a string of nagging injuries raised doubts about his durability and toughness - doubts that his coach at Georgia did nothing to alleviate. He also had a terrible Combine, which was only partly offset by a good Pro Day.

Spotting the diamond buried on his depth chart, and starting him as a rookie, was one of Mike Shanahan's best moves. While it's true that some mediocre running backs have thrived in that system (even Dayne redeemed himself somewhat in Denver and Houston), nobody has come close to the four-year run Davis put together before tearing up his knee. By 1997, defensive coordinators were scheming to stop Davis, not Elway.

You are on firmer ground about Shaun Alexander. The loss of Hutchinson and (later) Strong brought him down to earth. Tiki Barber was probably more deserving of the 2005 MVP. By most measures, though, Alexander was in a different class than Ron Dayne, and his decline had as much to do with injuries as the depletion of Seattle's blocking. Doesn't mean the Giants should have drafted him - just that he wasn't entirely the product of the guys in front of him.

There was at least one year that he came into camp in shape, and he still couldn't even push the line or break out of an arm tackle.

I think he just had lousy muscle tone. Some people with large muscles don't have good muscle density and tone, and I think he was one of them. He looked a whole lot stronger than he actually was, so when he hit the line, he just got pushed back.

I don't know if the lack of muscle tone was from laziness in the weight room, but as I said, there was one year where he seemed to come in in shape, and it didn't seem to matter much.

And yes, in college he ran through holes that were a lot wider than he was. Frequently by the time he hit contact, he had a head of steam that helped him use his weight, that offset the lack of real strength. And, of course, that also helped offset the fact that he had as much ability to cut as an old, rusty butter knife.

didn't seem to possess the tough guy mental drive he needed to succeed at the NFL level. You have to be in it 100%. Training, diet, exercise, study...it all has to be at the top level to do well in this league.

IMO, Dayne was sort of laid back. He was a bad choice made by Fassel when he determined he had to draft Dayne after watching him in the hula-bowl.

Dayne and three days rain. Williams and snow and watch him go.