Ron Dayne contrast with Andre Williams

lacked much wiggle at the line, came down too easy.

but the idea of a big back bore fruit with Bjac.

he had the body of a power back but he was always more shifty than powerful. Andre Williams is a whole different deal.

also, at Wisconsin RD had a stable of beasts on the O Line that he ran behind.

He had a great line at Wisconsin and was considered fast for his size. Which was large (yet fairly soft). I predict we get tons more value out of Williams.

In college, he had holes an 18-wheeler could've run through, and the lack thereof in the NFL proved a huge detriment, given his lack of quicks and burst.

AW is a physical runner.

DAYNE WAS NEVER A POWER BACK - EVER!

Her ran through gaping holes.

Andre Williams > Dayne and is no way no how similar to the back Dayne was.

In comment 11750571 26.2 said:

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also, at Wisconsin RD had a stable of beasts on the O Line that he ran behind.

Agreed. And I think that created problems for him as a pro. At Wisconsin, if the hole didn't open up quickly, Dayne would tend to string the play out knowing that eventually the road graders would create one. With the speed of pro defenses, that doesn't work in the NFL. I'm not sure Dayne ever made the adjustment.

but the scouts didn't? pretty high pick for someone just running through huge holes that anyone could run through.

he was a really good college RB. couldn't make his own holes in the NFL, but not many can.

The only reason he was give the power back label is his weight. It wasn't muscle. It was fat.

His combine was probably average or close enough. Imv,
RD's game speed in college was fine, but he just didn't have the burst to consistently get through or off the edge of defensive fronts. He wasn't a physical runner who broke tackles, and he was frequently tackled very easily.

I can remember a whole lot of people being pissed about him on draft day.

If he hit the line between the offensive tackles and the hole wasn't there, he would then to the outside parallel to the LOS and keep running to the sideline. He couldn't/wouldn't plant his foot and turn up-field.

WE had another 1st Round RB, who did exactly the same thing: Butch Woolfolk.

I always said as to both players that if you could add up the yardage they ran to the sideline, each would have led the NFL in rushing yardage.

knew he was a product of his o-line in college. He never had elite skills (power, burst, ability to make people miss). Shaun Alexander was clearly a better back that year.

In comment 11750614 Greg from LI said:

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I can remember a whole lot of people being pissed about him on draft day.

I agree from what I saw in the post-draft reaction. I didn't closely track college football that year, so all I knew about him was that he was the Heisman winner. But no matter how bad he turned out for us, that whole first round in 2000 pretty much sucked besides a few players, namely Burress and Urlacher (and of course, Shaun Alexander, who we passed due to injury concerns).
2000 NFL Draft - ( New Window )

In comment 11750582 Csonka said:

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but the scouts didn't? pretty high pick for someone just running through huge holes that anyone could run through. he was a really good college RB. couldn't make his own holes in the NFL, but not many can.

I can't speak for anybody else or why NFL scouts didn't see it, but it was fairly obvious that his success in college would not translate to the NFL and I said it long before he was drafted by the Giants. He actually was a much better NFL back than I expected him to be.

Dayne picked sucked when Fassel & Accorsi gave contradictory assessments of him during interviews on draft day. Fassel had it correctly. He saw Dayne as a huge scatback who could not catch the ball. I also think he wanted to see Barber motivated, given his talents in a WCO. Williams is a power back. No question. Will he hold up or will he turn out like Andre Brown? Big question.

consisted of toss sweeps where he blew through a hole untouched until 6-8 yds down field.

In comment 11750563 WillieYoung said:

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he had the body of a power back but he was always more shifty than powerful. Andre Williams is a whole different deal.

This and he was a fourth round pick not the 11th pick in the entire draft. Dayne was a huge bust relative to selection.

And the guy liked to eat.

I think he could have been a better back than he became. But I don't think he wanted it bad enough.

but there's only one thing about him that's similar to Dayne.

I've watched perhaps 5 videos of Williams. He's a lot less massive than Dayne, he's more agile and a better athlete than Dayne. He's quicker to the POA, has better vision and also better long speed than Dayne.

But one of Dayne's problems was that despite his size, he didn't usually run that tough. Sure, he'd bowl over DB's in the secondary that he outweighed by 50 pounds, but he didn't really like to stick his nose in. And while Williams is being ballyhooed as a great inside power runner, I don't see it. He's effective at taking an angle or sliding when getting tackled and picking up an extra yard or two, but I don't see him exploding into tacklers the way someone like Hillis does for example.

But the good news is when he clears the LOS, he moves, and isn't very easy to bring down for the reasons I mentioned.

"think" so much.

I hope he can pick up the passing game as quickly as Alexander did.

why the hell we took him over Shaun Alexander. Made no sense on draft day and looks incredibly foolish now.

In comment 11750614 Greg from LI said:

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I can remember a whole lot of people being pissed about him on draft day.

Bull, there were lots of folks here who were impressed with Dayne's freak of nature size and speed.

is as much, if not more about heart and attitude than physical size and strength. Dayne was never going to be that kind of back, just wasn't in him.

While different backs, on the surface, they are very similar prospects coming out.

-Highly productive college careers
-"Power" backs (whether Dayne was or wasn't, he was seen that way coming out)
-1 dimensional with questions regarding their hands

One back goes 10th overall, another drops to the 4th round. Goes to show how devalued the running back position has become.

Before I get a bunch of "they're different RBs" comments, please try to focus on the perception of Dayne coming out rather than what he was in the NFL.

on this site.

Never was a good fit for us.
Shocked at his size how he could not move the pile.
Our OL was not good at all.
Tiki's speed saved me more times than not.

I recall when playing the Niners in the playoffs Dayne just checked in and Collins launched a fastball off Ron's head from less than ten years away. Great example, of a player doing well within his college system than never translated into the NFL. An old story that seems to stay the same over the years.

I seem to remember it being fairly controversial.

In comment 11750582 Csonka said:

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but the scouts didn't? pretty high pick for someone just running through huge holes that anyone could run through. he was a really good college RB. couldn't make his own holes in the NFL, but not many can.

What we all saw was confirmed by his NFL career.

In comment 11750687 Big Blue Blogger said:

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I hope he can pick up the passing game as quickly as Alexander did.

Alexander! That's who I was trying to remember! Clearly looked better than Dayne and many had us taking him. I think that the Giants thought he played too much like Barber though so we wanted a back who was a better complement. BTW, great example of forcing a pick at a position.

blast from the past discussion, the comparison between Dayne and Williams is just awful.

many of us wanted Sean Alexander. I threw the remote when they took Dayne.

1st round had quite a few very good players in it. Might want to take another look.

If they came from a Big Ten school, they weren't worth a crap.

I agree that the Giants blew it big time with the Dayne but Alexander, in my opinion, is nothing like Williams. Alexander was a cut back runner like Barber just bigger. Williams is a move the pile runner. The Giants passed on Alexander because Fassel wanted more of a power back to complement Barber and Accorsi went along. I remember reading Gil Brandt knocking the Dayne pick because the Giants thought they were getting another Jerome Bettis and Dayne was nothing like Bettis (or Williams for that matter). Dayne would try to avoid contact. Runners like Bettis and Williams would wear out a defense by running you over. And, as noted above, Williams was a 4th round pick. Dayne was the 11th pick in round 1

comparing Williams to Dayne is apples and oranges....

Heisman winner, and first round pick, who was a bust....

The 2014 draft sucked for RB's....one wasn't picked until the 54th selection, and this guy wasn't taken until the fourth round.....

I mean, someone drafted out of all those RB's may turn out to be a Bradshaw or a Morris, but Williams is still a huge question mark until he gets out there and proves he belongs....as of right now, all the Giants have is Jennings.....

that wasn't "controversial"? I was also in the Alexander camp (as well as the Graham camp the following year, so I was batting .500 those years), but I'm fairly confident that Dayne was the most popular guy heading into the draft.

Remember a few other guys like Bullock and Abraham (as a LB)being thrown around, but we were very focused on RB, with Dayne being the popular pick.

We picked too low for there to be a consensus guy in 2001 pre-draft.

Dayne was not running anyone over in college. He was known more for his quick feet and running behind an awesome OL. The Giants misused him from the start because with his size they tried making him a power back, even though all the scouting reports, including their own, said otherwise.

Dayne was NOT seen as a power back coming out. The scouts never said as much and even the Giants, who drafted him, acknowledged as much on draft day. However, when play began, they started using him as a short yardage/power back, which he wasn't.

That said, I think it was still a possibility that he could have been successful in the NFL. I don't think he was ever going to be an elite RB, but he could have been better than he was. I feel like the same can be said of a lot of guys from the mid-90s to 2000 drafts for the Giants. Reeves ruined Hampton, who could have been great. I think Dave Brown actually could have been a decent QB, but also was ruined by Reeves.

like Rodney Hampton or Jerome Bettis. Gary Brown had endeared himself to fans for a season until he got into that accident. Dayne had some qualities about him that drew similarities.

Unfortunately for him, those similarities were of the appearance variety and not talent.

Its ok. We still ended up with the best RB in the history of the franchise. It just wasn't Dayne or Alexander.

Dayne isn't around anymore. So, a more relevant comparison might be against 2 recent 2d Rounders, using official measureables:

Eddie Lacy 5'11" 231 lbs. 4.64 in the 40, 1.65 in 10 yds. and 7.33 in the 3 cone.

Carlos Hyde 6'0" 230 lbs. 4.61 in the 40, 1.69 in 10 yds. and 9'6" broad jump.

Andre Williams 5'11" 230 lbs. 4.50 in 40 yds. 1.58 in 10 yds. 10'9" broad jump 7.27 in 3-cone.

Other RBs in the NFC East are:

Lesean McCoy 5'11" 204 lbs. 4.50 in 40 yds. 1.52 in 10 yds. 8'11" in broad jump and 6.82 in the 3-cone

Alfred Morris 5'10" 219 lbs. 4.61 in 40 yds. 1.60 in 10 yds. 9'9" in broad jump and 7.01 in 3-cone.

DeMarco Murray 6'0" 213 lbs. 4.37 in 40 yds. 1.52 in 10 yds. 10'10" in the broad jump 7.28 in 3-cone.

So, eliminating DeMarco Murray, who's off the charts except for the 3-cone, Andre Williams is as fast as McCoy in the 40 and faster than the other backs at the same distance; McCoy is faster in 10 yds. than Williams but is 25 lbs. lighter weight but otherwise Williams is faster than the others; Williams about the same in the broad jump as McCoy but better than the others; Williams is only better than Eddie Lacy in the 3-come.

So, IMO what do the measureables tell us about Williams;

At 230 lbs. he's very fast in the 40- as fast as McCoy and faster than Lacy, Hyde and Morris. So, very good deep speed.

Faster than Lacy, Hyde and Morris in 10 yds. So, he's quicker off the snap of the ball and to the LOS than they are, IMO.

Much better than Lacy, Morris and McCoy in the broad jump. IMO that should mean more explosive, that is, quicker out of his cuts than they are.

Only better than Lacy in the 3-cone. IMO that should indicate that Williams is not as shifty or agile as the others.

In summary, based on the measureables, a TERRIFIC 4th Round pick. He has better measureables than Lacy or Morris- let's hope he turns out to be as good a football player with the same production and better than Hyde, drafted this year in the 2d Round.

"Thunder and Lightning" thing is one of the stupidest things I have seen in my 40+ years as a Giants fan. (And I lived through the 1970s, when the Giants had plenty of stupid.) It was obvious from the moment he stepped on an NFL playing field that Dayne not a power back and the Giants' attempts to use him that way were just wishful thinking. Also terrible coaching: Part of a coach's job is to recognize a player's strengths and weaknesses, to exploit the strengths and hide the weaknesses. It's up to the opposing coach to find the weaknesses and exploit them. Fassel et al did their opponents' job for them by misusing Dayne and exposing his weaknesses.

Remember, though, that despite all that he had a decent rookie season. From his second year on he spiraled downward.

I think this Giants staff is smarter than that and will not try to put Williams into a role he's not suited for. Though I have to say they didn't do a great job developing Mathias Kiwanuka in that respect. I think they set him back by making him a linebacker.

off a quick youtube highlight watch and nothing more, Williams can definitely use more power to run over DBs and break tackles downfield, but the comparison at the LOS isn't that far fetches. They both ran through some monster truck holes in college.

.

that Dayne had no power or ability to go through contact. I hear it referenced a lot by fans. In college he did have a great line, and huge holes to run through, he also gained over half his yards after contact. Now that contact may have been a linebacker getting an arm on him or whatever but I don't buy into the theory that when Dayne came out of college he was a known fatty with happy feet who was just lucky to have a great line.

He had some skill, never really improved at the NFL level and wasn't a powerback in college, but he did run through contact in college and was highly regarded when drafted.

His youtube college highlights show some physical runs as well. See page 4 and 6 of his bio about his physical college play, yards after contact, etc... Dayne was a college superstar who busted in the NFL. Not a lucky and soft college player.
Ron Dayne Bio - ( New Window )

Not much turns up on google from that far back. But I'm fairly confident that this universal idea that he was never seen as a "power" back coming out is very much revisionist history. Logic would dictate that the Giants didn't draft a 250 lb "finesse" back with the 11th pick...

Coming out, most scouting reports still gave Dayne a decent chance at success. However, it was made clear he was NOT a power back. Some warned that the Heisman should not be overvalued when considering him.

He had value, but necessarily what you expect from a traditional Heisman winner. He was not being touted as a "fatty with happy feet" as you put it. But, scouting reports were consistent in pointing out his mammoth OL that created big holes. To accomplish what he did, there still had to be a lot of talent, and talent worthy of an NFL draft pick.

Dayne.

They seldom opened even reasonable holes for him to run through. The Oline seldom was able to push the defense off the line of scrimmage. With no holes and no offensive push, Dayne was often caught in the backfield for a loss. He was not going to run sweeps with any success and the Giants didn't have the personnel for sweeps anyway.

I don't think that Alexander would have played much better if we had drafted him unless Alexander had better foot speed and could cut back.

BTW while Williams had the most running yardage last year, Dayne had the most running yardage in college football history.