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Raanan NJ.com: The NFL's perception of Eli

Defenderdawg : 7/3/2014 11:06 am
"The perception of Giants quarterback Eli Manning among NFL insiders is all over the map. One thing is certain though; very few view him as elite..."
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I like how people noted  
Moondwg : 7/3/2014 11:11 am : link
that he's not easy to rank.

This is odd, though: "He has never struck me as a take-charge, carry-the-team type of guy."
Meh...  
RC02XX : 7/3/2014 11:12 am : link
Elite or not, he's led us to two Super Bowls. I will take a "good" QB, who rises to championship level play when his team needs him over an elite QB, who falters when in such situations.
Careful Jordan, careful  
chris r : 7/3/2014 11:12 am : link
fair...  
DavidinBMNY : 7/3/2014 11:12 am : link
When eli is on, he is on...
Eli IS tough to grade  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 7/3/2014 11:14 am : link
even on BBI we're confused about where he really ranks. Overall, I'd say they were pretty positive when it came to Eli. Eli is ranked 8th on that list after his awful 2013, that shows the respect he still has leaguewide.

But this quote bugged the shit out of me.


"I see Eli having a hard time generating things on his own," one GM said. "I don't see a great decision-maker. He has never struck me as a take-charge, carry-the-team type of guy."

Eli isn't a carry-the-team type of guy? Did this guy not pay attention to 2011 when Eli put a junk team on his back and carried them into the playoffs? And then when that team finally displayed it's full potential in the playoffs, Eli led them to ANOTHER epic Super Bowl run.

I'm really pumped about Eli in 2014. One of the most unique athletes I've ever rooted for. I hope he shuts up the critics one more time.
Stuck in the car for a few minutes this morning listening to  
jcn56 : 7/3/2014 11:15 am : link
WFAN, and the host (not sure who) ranting about the NFL QB ranking list that ESPN did with some former coaches and personnel people.

Eli came in at #9 with a tie (Matt Ryan and a couple of other guys I don't recall right now). Dead last on the list - Geno Smith (which drove this host off the deep end).

Eli hasn't been consistent enough to qualify for the 'elite' moniker. I wouldn't take anyone else, simply because I couldn't possibly say that after the guy not only delivered two championships but in dramatic fashion (and the second was basically the result of a phenomenal year on his part). These guys have to go objectively though, so I could see knocking him off the 'elite' perch.
It makes sense. We never know  
section125 : 7/3/2014 11:15 am : link
what we are getting from Eli from game to game. One minute he's going 80 yds in 2 minutes for a TD and the next he's throwing a pick six with nobody in the area. He is wildly inconsistent, yet one of the best in a 2 minute drill.
I think enigma is an appropriate description.
some Eli defenders have blamed the complexity of the system  
chris r : 7/3/2014 11:16 am : link
for his inconsistent play. Well now he's got an apparently much simpler system - its his chance to string some pro-bowl worthy seasons together.

Otherwise its hard to escape the reality that Eli is a very streaky QB who has gotten hot twice at exactly the right time to lead the Giants to SB wins.
It's rare you see a QB all over the map regarding rankings like  
kmed : 7/3/2014 11:16 am : link
this from year to year. It's also no surprise that people would have a hard time ranking him after his god awful season last year. He is certainly a unique case, that's for sure.
Nothing shattering here...  
okiegiant : 7/3/2014 11:17 am : link
I think most of us kind of feel the same way.

Personally I think Manning has a monster year(after a sorta slow, but not bad, start)and tears it up.
Eli Manning's had an unusual career  
Greg from LI : 7/3/2014 11:22 am : link
There's no denying it. His play varies so much over the course of a season that he's difficult to class as one of the very best, and yet he's shown a very rare ability to play his best football when the the stakes and the pressure are highest. I honestly can't think of another QB I'd consider a good comp for him.
I perceive him as a two time Super Bowl champ and MVP  
Go Terps : 7/3/2014 11:23 am : link
.
Eli definitely is hard to define...  
BillKo : 7/3/2014 11:23 am : link
he makes a lot of mistakes.

He also makes a ton of big/clutch plays.........

There's no question he has easily surpassed what the Giants gave up to get him back in 2004. Two SB's, where he was right in the middle of everything, will do that.

He's not elite, because he doesn't put up the gaudy stats that other QB's do (in regard to TD/INT ratio).

He also will always be in the shadow of his brother, who will probably go down as the greatest QB in the history of the game.
RE: Careful Jordan, careful  
RC02XX : 7/3/2014 11:24 am : link
In comment 11754222 chris r said:
Quote:


Haha. Do you have this superhero spidey sense when you have to come in to every single thread to "tsk tsk" others for their views? I mean, not a single thread goes by without you somehow playing your contrarian persona and pointing out how others' views are wrong.

RE: RE: Careful Jordan, careful  
chris r : 7/3/2014 11:27 am : link
In comment 11754253 RC02XX said:
Quote:
In comment 11754222 chris r said:


Quote:






Haha. Do you have this superhero spidey sense when you have to come in to every single thread to "tsk tsk" others for their views? I mean, not a single thread goes by without you somehow playing your contrarian persona and pointing out how others' views are wrong.



Please elucidate for me if you'd be so kind how my post was contrarian. TIA.
Greg...  
BillKo : 7/3/2014 11:27 am : link
I actually compare him to Favre.

Big risk taker, no matter what the situation. Oblivious to pressure and big moments......and he wins games.

Doesn't get hurt.

Favre was more mobile and had a better arm, but they kinda play the game the same way.

Favre's personality goes more with that style....and I tend to think Eli's personality hurts him in regards to how people look at him.
Well thats easy.  
AnishPatel : 7/3/2014 11:28 am : link
Average QB who had great defenses and one of the luckiest QBs.

Chris r, I been waiting for this new system for years now. I hope he can put up numbers like I think he could. That would go a hell of a long way.
RE: RE: RE: Careful Jordan, careful  
RC02XX : 7/3/2014 11:31 am : link
In comment 11754259 chris r said:
Quote:
Please elucidate for me if you'd be so kind how my post was contrarian. TIA.


If you can't recognize why I would post my comment of your penchant for "tsk tsk"-ing of others' comments as response to your first post with the imagery of an angry mob, then there's nothing I can do or say to help you understand. But let me try anyway...instead of just coming into a thread to state your piece regarding the article and the OP, you always have this incredible need to tell others that somehow their views are wrong or too mainstream, hence your contrarian persona.
The Eli discussion  
chrispisano66 : 7/3/2014 11:31 am : link
is always a good barometer of football knowledge if you ask me.

Look at the circumstances, physical conditions, quality of opponent and performance in the 4 biggest games of his life.

How can anyone perceive Eli to be anything other championship quality?
I also think....  
BillKo : 7/3/2014 11:32 am : link
if Eli had, say, the personality of Phil Simms or Phillip Rivers, and his career was exactly the same, people would think differently of him.

And that's just some people. I think real NFL people know he's a very good QB.

Favre is a gunslinger, Eli is mistake prone.

Maybe Eli should start doing Lee jeans commercials.
And whatever GM  
chrispisano66 : 7/3/2014 11:33 am : link
made those italicized comments above must have missed the 2007 and 11 NFCC games and super Bowls.
RE: Eli IS tough to grade  
WideRight : 7/3/2014 11:34 am : link
In comment 11754228 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
even on BBI we're confused about where he really ranks. Overall, I'd say they were pretty positive when it came to Eli. Eli is ranked 8th on that list after his awful 2013, that shows the respect he still has leaguewide.

But this quote bugged the shit out of me.


"I see Eli having a hard time generating things on his own," one GM said. "I don't see a great decision-maker. He has never struck me as a take-charge, carry-the-team type of guy."

Eli isn't a carry-the-team type of guy? Did this guy not pay attention to 2011 when Eli put a junk team on his back and carried them into the playoffs? And then when that team finally displayed it's full potential in the playoffs, Eli led them to ANOTHER epic Super Bowl run.

I'm really pumped about Eli in 2014. One of the most unique athletes I've ever rooted for. I hope he shuts up the critics one more time.


That GM quote shows that some are as lost as fans when it comes to evaluations....unless that was Reese!
when I looked  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 7/3/2014 11:34 am : link
at "clutch QB performance" through pro-football-reference a while ago, two things really stood out.

Eli's clutchness is absolutely impressive, one of the best in big spots
Late-career Favre is actually one of the least clutch QBs of the past 10-15 years

I don't know how "clutch" Favre was early on in his career, but he seems like more of a frontrunner type of QB. His TD-INT totals late in close games was awful.

Eli, despite being a gunslinger like Favre, was much more effective at the end of tight games. I think Favre's lack of a clutch gene is what holds him back from the GOAT discussion imo. Guys like Peyton, Brady, Marino, Montana, Elway, etc. were all far more impressive with the game on the line.
perhaps...  
BillKo : 7/3/2014 11:35 am : link
the GM who made those comments was with San Fran or Green Bay?? lol.....

Jealousy does that to you..................
I think the Simpson pic posted above  
smshmth8690 : 7/3/2014 11:36 am : link
is perfect for this thread. I love the doubting of Eli, as a fan, I sit back like Mr. Burns, and think to myself 'Excellent'.
RE: I think the Simpson pic posted above  
RC02XX : 7/3/2014 11:39 am : link
In comment 11754285 smshmth8690 said:
Quote:
is perfect for this thread. I love the doubting of Eli, as a fan, I sit back like Mr. Burns, and think to myself 'Excellent'.


But that's the thing...this is a Giants message board with diehard Giants fans. While many can be objective, fans will come to their oft-maligned team captain's defense against all outsiders, especially if he brought you the two greatest Super Bowl victory drives in recent memory. He may not be an elite QB (I don't think he is elite myself), but he's our non-elite QB. It's par for the course on a fan site.
haha  
aquidneck : 7/3/2014 11:41 am : link
Another Super Bowl championship will make it even harder for these guys to rate Eli.
RE: The Eli discussion  
AnishPatel : 7/3/2014 11:45 am : link
In comment 11754271 chrispisano66 said:
Quote:
is always a good barometer of football knowledge if you ask me.

Look at the circumstances, physical conditions, quality of opponent and performance in the 4 biggest games of his life.

How can anyone perceive Eli to be anything other championship quality?


I am not sure barometer more so than its interesting to see what non giants fans think of him. I just think its amazing how there are so many varying opinions all over the map regarding him.
Two Super Bowl MVPs  
djm : 7/3/2014 11:48 am : link
Have really mellowed my stance on Eli. I've accepted that Eli is going to go down as one of the weirdest, enigmatic and up and down high profile championship players in recent memory. He's a tough guy to judge but with shit like this I've learned to keep it simple. The guy delivered me two Super Bowl titles. He was huge in both post season runs. Ever since Eli arrived in north jersey the giants have been under the NFL's spotlight and microscope -- and they have flourished both on and off the field. Eli and Coughlin put this team back on the map.

Maybe some of the scrutiny is over the top and unfair. Maybe it's the system at times maybe it's just Eli being a bit inconsistent. I really don't care anymore because all that matters is the rings and we've gotten two. That's an incredible run and it's not over yet.

I've given up fighting the good fight and defending Eli's play, for the most part, although every now n then i will cut some moron NYG fan down a bit if they really bash Eli. You know when it's clear that Eli is a bad ass QB? When you talk to knowledgeable fans of opposing teams. Go talk to a Dallas or jets fan that can walk and chew gum at the same time and see how they view Eli. They all give him high praise.

There are giants fan who won't appreciate Eli until he's gone but I assure you the fans who have suffered at the hands of Eli? They respect him. That's all I need to know. The guy is an assassin.
this is all pretty  
area junc : 7/3/2014 11:58 am : link
obvious to non-Giants fans. he's been very good at times, great in 2011, but the last 2 years he's been one of the worst starting QBs in the league and there are all kinds of numbers to support that. big eli fan, too, love his character and appreciate him playing in the most complicated O in the league for 10 years
How a pro personnel guy...  
nyblue56 : 7/3/2014 11:58 am : link
can look at Eli after 2011 and think he can't carry a team is amazing to me. i would love to know what team he works for?
Eli needs to put up big numbers this year if he wants to quiet the  
ZogZerg : 7/3/2014 12:07 pm : link
critics.
Players don't vote for winners  
NoPeanutz : 7/3/2014 12:09 pm : link
When they asked the players which coach you'd like to play for, at the top was Rex Ryan and at the bottom was TC and BB.
Eli needs to put up big numbers if we want to win games and make the  
Kyle : 7/3/2014 12:17 pm : link
playoffs and be title contenders.

Silencing critics is incidental.
RE: How a pro personnel guy...  
Default : 7/3/2014 12:24 pm : link
In comment 11754331 nyblue56 said:
Quote:
can look at Eli after 2011 and think he can't carry a team is amazing to me. i would love to know what team he works for?


Because that was three years ago, the past two years proved otherwise.
RE: I perceive him as a two time Super Bowl champ and MVP  
snumber6 : 7/3/2014 12:25 pm : link
In comment 11754248 Go Terps said:
Quote:
.


Yeah ... he's probably the average 2 time Super Bowl Champ and MVP ... some 2 time winners are better ... some worse ...
so I'll make him average ...
Osi  
Fred in Atlanta : 7/3/2014 12:30 pm : link
There was an article that actually went through every opportunity that a few QBs had with the game on line and behind. Eli was amazing compared to others. He had a significant number of times where he tied or went ahead and still loss because of the defense. People say Romo is a chock artist, but he was basically average not bad in those situations. He probably gets hurt because of comparisons to Eli. Actually Rodgers was one of the worst in those situations, but he does not get in that situation that many times.
I too am very excited to see what a new offensive scheme does for Eli.  
T-Bone : 7/3/2014 12:32 pm : link
For me, I look back when trying to evaluate Eli. Back to when Coughlin was the coach of the Jags. His QB back then was Mark Brunell and he was considered as an upper-echelon QB through most of his career in Jax and I see a lot of similarities in Coughlin's offense back then when it was working and in the past 10 seasons when it was working.

When Eli had all of the parts working for him on offense, he was damn near unstoppable (insert watch commercial here). When he had an above-average O-line (didn't have to be great, just above-average), a good running game and at least two WRs who knew where they were supposed to be and were usually there (see Plax/Amani, Nicks/Cruz), he would put up great stats. I know most would say 'Well duh, most QBs would under those circumstances!', but that's not the point I'm trying to make so bear with me.

Back in Coughlin's heyday in Jax, what did him and Brunell have? An above-average line (anchored by Boselli), a good running game (anchored by Fred Taylor) and two WRs who knew where they were supposed to be and were able to get there and make plays (in Jimmy Smith and Keenan McCardell). I just don't think Coughlin/Gilbride's offensive scheme allowed the QB to be successful if at least two of the three characteristics I outlined above were working well. I wouldn't say all three had to work well because I remember Eli carrying the team on his back with no running game just a few years ago but the O-line that year did a hell of a job (especially when it came to pass-blocking) and he still had Plax and Toomer.

So my point is that, IMO, the next few seasons will tell A LOT about what kind of QB Eli really is because I don't think the offensive system he was in provided much help to him. To have a play-action based system that involved a lot of the deep ball (which is what Coughlin's system was) you had to have the three components I mentioned above working well with each other. When the O-line started breaking down and the running game began to falter in Jax, that's when Brunell started to really struggle. Same thing happens here. I've also read and heard plenty of times about just how hard this offense is on a QB from a lot of the QBs who've had their stops here.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
I love it when people slight him.  
rdt288 : 7/3/2014 12:46 pm : link


-Doubt him from now until he stops playing, the guy is a two time Super Bowl MVP.
Eli  
PaulN : 7/3/2014 12:52 pm : link
Will never get the credit he deserves. He led 2 teams on epic Super Bowl runs, both teams were flawed teams, both teams were not supposed to do shit in the playoffs, yet when they rank clutch QB's, Big Ben is in the top 10, Eli is not, then what the fuck is Eli. You want to tell me those Giant teams were great teams! That is a fucking joke. They were great playoff teams, and why? Eli Manning is the answer, that is why, but they simply will never give the guy his due. They rather admire a fucking rapist. They can all go fuck themselves. That is why I just want the Giants to win 1 more title under Eli, with three titles, it will kill all the critics. I could care less what any of them think, I am just glad he is on my team.
Both the OL and run game were trash in Eli's best season.  
Riggies : 7/3/2014 12:55 pm : link
He had a good top trio of WR in Nicks/Cruz/Manningham, but the epitome of a JAG TE corps and was even, at times, kind of stifled by how reticent the coaching staff was to open things up until later games, when they had choice to break away from the base 2-2 offense and put better talent on the field more frequently. As Osi said, he dragged what was a junk team along until the defense got its head out of its ass late that season.

That so many Giant fans still say things like he needs top talent around him, a good/great run game, a great pass blocking line, a high-end defense, etc though is why I can't get made when others say things like that anonymous GM. Even those most pro-him can't seem to gage him or what he needs to be successful right... and it's not their fault, really, for the most part, given how all over Eli's been in his career.
I dread the day  
liteamorn : 7/3/2014 1:02 pm : link
I dread the day Eli hangs em up, we will comparing our qb's to him for years to come. Yeah, he's had bad games and bad years but Eli is money.

Eli and Coach Coughlin are Giant legends, we should be thanking our stars for the time they have been here and what they have accomplished, I know I do.
RE: this is all pretty  
SanFranGiantsFan : 7/3/2014 1:04 pm : link
In comment 11754330 area junc said:
Quote:
obvious to non-Giants fans. he's been very good at times, great in 2011, but the last 2 years he's been one of the worst starting QBs in the league and there are all kinds of numbers to support that. big eli fan, too, love his character and appreciate him playing in the most complicated O in the league for 10 years


He was one of the worst QBs in 2012? Uh, no. He didn't have a great '12 season, especially in comparsion to '11, but he was good.

In '13 he sucked, though I chalk it up to one of the worst OLs ever. That was football malpractice of the highest order. Throw in the fact we had no running game, Nicks was in the clouds, & it all added up to a dreadful season.

Fact is that the man is a 2 time Super Bowl winner & MVP. He'll never shut all the critics up, but who cares? He's got the rings & hardware. He's the best Giants QB of my lifetime & will be hard to replace when he does hang up the cleats.
RE: Both the OL and run game were trash in Eli's best season.  
Riggies : 7/3/2014 1:14 pm : link
In comment 11754428 Riggies said:
Quote:
He had a good top trio of WR in Nicks/Cruz/Manningham, but the epitome of a JAG TE corps and was even, at times, kind of stifled by how reticent the coaching staff was to open things up until later games, when they had choice to break away from the base 2-2 offense and put better talent on the field more frequently. As Osi said, he dragged what was a junk team along until the defense got its head out of its ass late that season.

That so many Giant fans still say things like he needs top talent around him, a good/great run game, a great pass blocking line, a high-end defense, etc though is why I can't get made when others say things like that anonymous GM. Even those most pro-him can't seem to gage him or what he needs to be successful right... and it's not their fault, really, for the most part, given how all over Eli's been in his career.

*That should be "... no choice but to..." and "... I can't get mad..." Curse BBI's lack of edit function.

I might as well add, to further my point, that the Giants haven't used a lot of play action since 2009 or so and that Eli was also at his career best with the team being terrible off it to a point where they barely even tried it in 2011.
I gave up  
NYG07 : 7/3/2014 1:39 pm : link
trying to defend Eli to other fans years ago....He will never be the elite fantasy QB that puts up 40 TD and only 8 INTs...but who cares?

I agree with the previous posters who compare him to Favre. The media would say Favre is a gunslinger but Manning makes poor decisions. Makes no sense to me. I have seen plenty of INTs from Manning where he is just trying to make a play or trying to fit a ball into too tight a window. Sometimes it doesn't work out and other times you get the Tyree and Manningham superbowl plays.

I saw a graphic on ESPN recently that Eli has thrown the most picks in the league since 2010. Yet since then he also has 2 pro bowls, a superbowl title and a superbowl MVP award. I will take it...
The O-line was trash run-blocking but I disagree pass-blocking wise.  
T-Bone : 7/3/2014 1:50 pm : link
I'd find it hard to believe that any QB, let alone Eli, would be able to throw for almost 5,000 yards behind a completely trashy line. I like Eli and think he's better than most others do, but I doubt a guy like Rodgers could throw for almost 5K yards behind a completely trashy o-line. C'mon, Eli's good but he ain't THAT good.

Also, not sure if this was directed at me, Riggies, or not:

Quote:
That so many Giant fans still say things like he needs top talent around him, a good/great run game, a great pass blocking line, a high-end defense, etc...


But I never said he needed 'top talent' around him. I won't say anymore than that because like I said, I'm not sure you were even directing that at my post or not.

The team hasn't used as much play-action in the past few seasons because there hasn't been much of a running threat. Doesn't mean that the play-action pass isn't/wasn't a HUGE part of Coughlin's offensive scheme, which was my one and only point in even mentioning play-action in my previous post.
How Many of Those GM's  
Bernie : 7/3/2014 1:51 pm : link
have constructed a Super Bowl champion? All I know is that Eli has lead the Giants to the promised land twice. Enough said.
By the way,  
T-Bone : 7/3/2014 1:57 pm : link
if you or anyone else can find any stats that disprove my point I will glady say I was wrong with regards to the o-line's pass-blocking prowess in '11. If I remember correctly he had a very low amount of sacks that season (though I could be wrong) and although some of that had to do with Eli, ALL of it couldn't.
Everyone has an opinion etc....  
vince : 7/3/2014 2:00 pm : link
Here's mine. I think Eli is the cream of the crop...Yep better'n elite..

Why? because there's no histrionics, no casting of blame. He knows the mistakes his people make and views it as a done thing..His is a let's move on personna.

I guess if he pissed and moaned and made faces and called people out he would then be "Elite" but not one iota better quarteback.

Everyone has a different perspective but when judging his entire career on interceptions and not on results then screw'em. He knows the plays and the playbook better'n anybody on his team and i'm sure he intentionally throws the ball to the wrong spot.

Funny when the receivers were following the "tree" and making adjustments they were all heroes. When the receivers "Layed down" alla Nicks and Randle then Eli is wrong. His perspective, "I make 18 million I should take the blame. I should know the receiver isn't capable of making the right decision, I should make the change"

Other GM's salivate on the possibility of getting Eli. Brady.Brees, Payten better'n Eli.....Maybe but Luck???? Whose head is up his ass here??

Eli is the ONLY ONE who can deliver when it's "All IN"
THE O N L Y one.



Maybe they're right....He stinks. Want trade Romo For him.....How about Luck????

"What have you done for me lately" is a good call when others are delivering Super bowls..

Brady is possibly the only one who can carry a team all the way but I doubt it.


Eli DID IT!!!


So tell these shit heads to hide their incompetencies and just let Eli do his thing...


Just watch when he has at least a half assed OL and a simplified route for Randle.

RAndle may help out but his best work will be to loosen up Cruz and Beckham. Who knows maybe he'll be in the right place once in awhile!

Eli was the most pressured QB in the NFL in 2011.  
Riggies : 7/3/2014 2:01 pm : link
(And not just by PFF's count for those who like to write them entirely off). That OL was stunk and them being awful and Eli rising above their performance (see a game like the one in Dallas that season, when the Cowboys didn't get a single sack, but both Diehl and McKenzie got shamed by Ware & Co) is part of why his season that year was so great.

And it was directed at you, not in a critical way, but because you said it (quality targets, a good OL, and a good running game = top end surrounding talent, frankly). The truth is, no one really has a clue what Eli needs to be good/great because he's been all over the place with all different parts and all different quality of parts around him. He's carried a junk team and subpar supporting cast, he's sunk a decent one.
What decent team did Eli Manning sink???????  
Shockeyisthebest80 : 7/3/2014 2:04 pm : link
...
"Sunk" might have been harsh.  
Riggies : 7/3/2014 2:12 pm : link
Just post the first SB win, his 25 INTs (even if not all his fault) and up/down performance in 2010 certainly didn't help what was a decent, better-than-average talent team overall nor did his performances to end the 2009 season (even if the defense was trash that year, the offensive surrounding talent certainly wasn't and the offense embarrassed themselves to close out that season) though.
I'm not even gonna read that article  
gidiefor : 7/3/2014 2:13 pm : link
NFL Experts drafted how many QBs in the first round that were can't miss and turned put to be busts?

Eli effin Manning is totally a hall of fame elite QB

How many 2 time Super Bowl MVPs are there
?

How many QBs have survived the scrutiny of the NY press

Look. Surround him with a halfway descent line and that boy can play

And if he somehow does not make the hall off game it will be because some members of the press who wet their beds at night have developed a. Unreasonable hard on for a guy who played QB in some of the most memorable games in NFL history and not just a couple of them!
Again,  
T-Bone : 7/3/2014 2:17 pm : link
if you could provide the stats to prove it, then I'll back off my claim that they were a trash o-line pass-blocking wise. I do remember Eli having to run for his life a bit that particular year (which, as you said, made it so amazing)...but I also remember him many times having a nice, comfortable pocket in front of him. I have no problem using PFF's metrics to prove you point if you wish to use them.

Regarding your second paragraph, I didn't say he needed 'top-end talent'. That's the way you're choosing to interpret what I said when I said he needs 'an above-average O-line (didn't have to be great, just above-average), a good running game and at least two WRs who knew where they were supposed to be and were usually there'. I even said it doesn't need to be a 'great' line...I said a good running game...and all I said was two receivers who needed to know where to be and were able to get there. Your choosing to read that as 'top-end talent' where I intentionally tried to NOT make it seem like he needs 'top-end talent' because I actually agree with you there.

one quote was dead wrong  
bc4life : 7/3/2014 2:19 pm : link
"dont see him as take charge guy" - whoever said that is clueless re: leadership and certainly doesn't get Eli's greatest strength.
I'll link the PFF then, because PFR doesn't work on my tablet.  
Riggies : 7/3/2014 2:25 pm : link
Quote:
His O-line allowed 15 more total pressures than any other in the NFL

ˇń Led NFL with 69.4% accuracy percentage on snaps under pressure

ˇń Led NFL in percentage of total pressure that turns into sacks with just 11.5%


https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/06/28/pff-top-101-of-2011-the-top-10/

Quote:
While the other passers in our Top 10 list saw no more than 147 total pressures last season, Eli Manning was subjected to a massive 220 in the same number of games.


http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/05/03/no-8-eli-manning-qb-new-york-giants/
T-Bone...  
BillKo : 7/3/2014 2:28 pm : link
I'm with you. Many have declared the Giants OL to be horrible in pass protection in 2011, but I disagree.

The tackles may have been wearing down, but they still gave him time, and the interior allowed in to step up.

Too many people, I think, equate the NFC title game to the bad line. That was San Fran, who had a terrific defense.

As you said, you don't pass for 5K with a crappy line........

And, in the playoffs, the running game picked up.
lone of the luckiest -OK whatever  
bc4life : 7/3/2014 2:28 pm : link
that's just crazy.

I think he is a Championship QB, but not elite when weighed against guys like Brady and his brother. He's very good at one of the most challenging positions in sports.

He has had good but not great, dominant defenses like the Ravens or Seattle. And, he has never had top flight talent. Name one guy among Plax, Toomer, Bradshaw , Jacobs who was a perennial all pro and none of them will even be mentioned in a sentence containing the phrase HOF.

If you think he did not do well in Gilbride's complicated offense - you must have been sleeping through the last ten years.

And one last note, one part of his game is elite - his football IQ. Not the best at execution, but, I don't know if there is a smarter QB on the filed, especially when it counts.
One more thing  
gidiefor : 7/3/2014 2:30 pm : link
Any One who styles themselves a Giants fan
should resign if they are not fans of Eli Manning

He's the greatest Giants QB ever.
BC....  
BillKo : 7/3/2014 2:32 pm : link
well said.

And to top it all off, he's exactly the type of guy you want representing your franchise.
Billko  
bc4life : 7/3/2014 2:34 pm : link
Absolutely, way better representative than that thug brother of his ;-)
Eli...  
rocco8112 : 7/3/2014 3:17 pm : link
... is a franchise QB. Best the Giants have had since I have been watching.

Eli has a resume of accomplishments that is matched by few of his peers. On top of that he has done the most difficult thing a qb can do, lead his team down the field for the winning score when all the chips are down, and Eli has done it twice on the biggest stage.

Also, I do not understand how anyone could think Eli is inconsistent. His first season as starter the Giants won thr NFC East and from that point there was not a losing
season until last years shit show.

Eli is basically the same home or away, dome or outdoors inclement weather or good. Call me crazy buy I find Eli to be remarkably consistent.


BillKo  
T-Bone : 7/3/2014 3:28 pm : link
Yeah, you and I see things very much the same way BUT Riggies did do what I asked and produced some stats to back up his claim that they were a pretty crappy o-line (even regarding pass-blocking, which is what I was specifically disagreeing with). That makes his 2011 year all the more impressive if those stats are to be believed.

That doesn't much change my main point, though, that it just seems to me that Coughlin's offense, in order to 'hum', seems to need AT LEAST an above average running game, o-line play and WR play in order to perform at it's best. Again, that's just my opinion and it's my opinion that when he was in the old system if one of more of the above factors didn't play at an above-average level of play then the offense doesn't work very well. Not to mention that looking at Eli's overall performance in said offense over a majority of his pro career it appears that Eli's 2011 season as a whole seems to be the outlier rather than the norm.

Overall my opinion of Eli is that he's always been a step below 'elite' throughout his career. That said though, it's pretty impressive that he's played as well as he has in the spurts he has considering that it's been rare when all the parts around him have been playing at an above-average level. This is why I'm excited to see him play in a more 'QB-friendly' offense this upcoming season and beyond. Here's to hoping that he'll be able to CONSISTENTLY put up stats that put him in that elite group.
The modern NFL  
BigBlueCane : 7/3/2014 3:32 pm : link
is all about Video game like numbers in TD's, yards, completions, etc...

Eli doesn't do that, he just wins. Which is a lore more valuable but not as much to talk about.

Also while he did ok in Gilbride's system, the rest of the offense didn't thrive exactly.
Yup  
T-Bone : 7/3/2014 3:45 pm : link
Quote:

Also while he did ok in Gilbride's system, the rest of the offense didn't thrive exactly


That was pretty much the gist of what I was saying in my initial post. It just seemed to me, and this has been stated many times over the past several years, that when this offense was 'on' it was REALLY 'on'. Even if one of my above factors wasn't performing well (let's say the running game for instance see: the 2008 season I think), it could still produce well enough to score some points. But if two or more factors weren't playing well...well...then Eli throws 25+ interceptions. LOL!

Anyway, I'm done. Thanks for the info Riggies as I honestly thought the o-line performed better than they evidently did.
I think....  
BillKo : 7/3/2014 4:34 pm : link
any stats from Pro Football Focus have been disputed a lot here.....how accurate they are, I'm not sure.

But, the sack total in 2011 was relatively low, and any pressure Eli did have, it was escapable for a immobile QB like Manning. I also know he has his offense down pat, and understands where players are supposed to be.

Two games, the first Dallas game, and NFC Champ Game were two games where he was under a lot of pressure.

Now last year.....that was poor OL play. Eli never had a chance........
RE: Again,  
Moondwg : 7/3/2014 5:20 pm : link
In comment 11754555 T-Bone said:
Quote:
if you could provide the stats to prove it, then I'll back off my claim that they were a trash o-line pass-blocking wise. I do remember Eli having to run for his life a bit that particular year (which, as you said, made it so amazing)...but I also remember him many times having a nice, comfortable pocket in front of him. I have no problem using PFF's metrics to prove you point if you wish to use them.

Regarding your second paragraph, I didn't say he needed 'top-end talent'. That's the way you're choosing to interpret what I said when I said he needs 'an above-average O-line (didn't have to be great, just above-average), a good running game and at least two WRs who knew where they were supposed to be and were usually there'. I even said it doesn't need to be a 'great' line...I said a good running game...and all I said was two receivers who needed to know where to be and were able to get there. Your choosing to read that as 'top-end talent' where I intentionally tried to NOT make it seem like he needs 'top-end talent' because I actually agree with you there.


I think, though that the two are not so easily seperable. I feel like for half the season, Eli was at 3rd and long every throw.
I flat out said it was by more than PFF.  
Riggies : 7/3/2014 5:46 pm : link
I knew as soon as I cited pressures someone was going to say "But PFF sucks!" in some shape or form and I was intending to cut that off -- Sports Illustrated, Pro Football Reference, etc all had the Giants sucking in number of pressures allowed and even generally respected analysts were on board with that, with a guy like Greg Cosell doing podcasts about how bad things like the Giants' tackle play was during that season.

I only linked them because T-Bone said it was good enough and I couldn't get PFR site to work on my device and knew I could just quick google PFF's stuff from that year.
The worst thing to ever happen to Eli  
dep026 : 7/3/2014 6:18 pm : link
was the rise/obsession of fantasy football.
RE: The modern NFL  
rocco8112 : 7/3/2014 6:20 pm : link
In comment 11754658 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
is all about Video game like numbers in TD's, yards, completions, etc...

Eli doesn't do that, he just wins. Which is a lore more valuable but not as much to talk about.

Also while he did ok in Gilbride's system, the rest of the offense didn't thrive exactly.



Yup, who has won more big games than Eli? Not too many of his contemporaries in this era that is for sure.

Also he has gaudy stats to back him up. People point to his passer rating, to hell with passer rating. With all these guys putting up video game numbers in the pass happy modern NFL, Eli I believe is the only QB to pass for more than 4900 yards and actually finish the job and win a title that year (2011). If I am not mistaken he also set the NFL postseason passing yardage record in the '11 title run. So those stats do not count? It is more impressive for Brees or big bro to put up crazy numbers in week 7 beating of a lesser opponent?

Eli has the stats and the career accomplishments to back them up. Plus, no QB can match his number of clutch game winning drives. If he is not a top tier QB than of the definition of one must be changed.

All  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/3/2014 6:23 pm : link
I know is there was an unbelievable amount of pressure on Eli to win an NFL Championship given his draft-day status.

He did it. Twice. And in both runs, he was the best QB in the playoffs.

If he retired tomorrow, he's arguably in the top QB in team history.
I for one, and many other experts apparently according to  
BlueLou : 7/3/2014 6:23 pm : link
Raanan's article, find it hard to dismiss the other one hundred and forty seven games Eli has started.

Quote:
The Eli discussion
chrispisano66 : 11:31 am : link : reply
is always a good barometer of football knowledge if you ask me.

Look at the circumstances, physical conditions, quality of opponent and performance in the 4 biggest games of his life.

How can anyone perceive Eli to be anything other championship quality?


So slice it and dice it to the homeristic POV and you get "championship qualtiy Eli", right? Which conveniently also ignores how Eli shit the bed in the playoff game 1 vs Philly in 2008 (or was that 2009?)...

IMO the Raanan article is fair enough and damn well balanced. Yeah, the "good measure of football IQ" is that Eli has been a "great, championship, HOF level QB..."

At times, nu? And at other times, not so much...
Yup...  
rocco8112 : 7/3/2014 6:33 pm : link
... Eli has lost sometimes too. Shocking, Peyton just got his ass handed to him in the bowl. Plus, in Super bowl 44 he threw a pick six to end it when little bro took it to the house twice in that situation. The first time against the "greatest team of all time".

Newsflash, its hard to win in the NFL. This makes Eli and the Giants accomplishments with him under center in the two title runs more impressive, not less.

Wasnt last year  
dep026 : 7/3/2014 6:33 pm : link
the first time the Giants finished under .500 when Eli started a full year? Yeah? Ok, well he is a winner.

Want a good laugh... everyone points out 2007 and 2011 as if they were his only good years.

2008:
3200 yards, 21 TDs, and 10 INTs. Those kind of stat put a guy in the 1990s in tho the HOF. Need you be reminded that Aikman had 1 20 TD season, and 2 3,000 yard seasons.

2009:
4000 yards, 27 TDs and 14 INTs. Just your run of the mill numbers. Ho hum.

2010: He again had over 4,000 yards, and 31 TDs. Get blasted for 25 INTs even though 12-15 came off deflections or dropped passes.

Again, its pointless to have discussions with people on Eli. Its pretty simple. People who hate him, will always hate him. And its a damn shame that a lot of those people are Giants fans.
RE: All  
Blue Blood : 7/3/2014 6:35 pm : link
In comment 11754875 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I know is there was an unbelievable amount of pressure on Eli to win an NFL Championship given his draft-day status.

He did it. Twice. And in both runs, he was the best QB in the playoffs.

If he retired tomorrow, he's arguably in the top QB in team history.


Still not good enough is this fantasy football driven stat conscious era we live in..

Ill take Eli every day of the week. He has stared the best in the face and won.. and not just won.. but did what I think is harder.. win in THEIR house..

Playoffs game on the line.. win or go home ??

Romo.. Check..
Favre.. Check..
Ryan.. aka Matty Ice.. Check...
Rodgers.. Check..
Brady.. Check... and Checkmate..

keep being divided on Eli.. I'll enjoy the Lombardi's...

.  
rocco8112 : 7/3/2014 6:37 pm : link
Well said
Eli has never been a numbers guy  
awm34 : 7/3/2014 7:15 pm : link
He's a winner and we're damn lucky to have him. I'll be astounded if his 2014 performance isn't superior.
Link - ( New Window )
Any shock  
JohnF : 7/3/2014 7:34 pm : link
that a "Boom or Bust" offense results in a "Boom or Bust" QB?

Eli is incredibly talented. With some weaknesses (mostly foot speed) thrown in. The offense (mostly under KG, though he was working under Tom's direction) was based on a hard running game 50% of the time, with the rest being medium to long range shots.

To make that offense go, you need an offensive line that protects the QB, and WR's that are in sync with the QB. Take that away, and the QB is going to be wildly inconsistent. Eli being as reliable as he is, we did not see that offense under another QB (unless you count Warner at the beginning. Note that Warner had a horrible time adjusting to this offense, but went to the SuperBowl later with Ariztona). I would think that it took a special QB to run tha offense (something Kerry Collins would have never been able to do).

I'm excited to see what the new OC does here. Especially in the Red Zone...where we stunk, for the most part. We could have won a LOT more games if we were just NFL "average" there!

I also think if the O-Line is just average, we score a lot more, and Eli's stats will be off the board. We'll see.
Look at our drafts  
TMS : 7/3/2014 7:39 pm : link
and player replacement record since ELI was drafted and went on to win two SBs as MVP and it is clear where the problems lies. ELI was a great find and hire . The front office personnel were not. I do not mean Coughlin.
You know why coaches rate Eli better than..  
Q : 7/3/2014 7:49 pm : link
the personnel participants?

A personnel guy drafted JaMarcus Russell one overall and gave him $40M signing bonus.

The best story of personnel guy and quarterback is when the coach gave JaMarcus Russell a blank DVD of the upcoming week's game plan, and Russell came in the next day and said he likes the plan and was ready for the game.

Al Davis cut him the next day, or soon after. -$40M.

The respect between TC and Eli is mutual, and productive.

The problem with the "He's just a winner" argument is that the Giants  
Riggies : 7/3/2014 7:56 pm : link
have missed the playoffs, out of a more often than not thoroughly unimpressive division, 5 out of his 10 years in the league and if he had better stats -- most of the ones people despise -- in those five seasons, they would have had a much, much better chance of making them.

No Giant fan in their right mind would ever not be extremely appreciative of the role he's played in two SB titles or, accounting for both accomplishment and longevity, deny that he's almost certainly the best QB the Giants have ever had, but those two runs don't make anything and everything else irrelevant when evaluating him as an individual player, his place in history or the league currently.
Eli doesn't put up gaudy numbers?  
Emlen'sGremlins : 7/3/2014 8:07 pm : link
He's Going To Finish Top 10 In NFL history In Passing Yardage And TDs. I Guess That's Not Good Enough For Some.
Not worried what other people  
80offensive : 7/3/2014 8:29 pm : link
think of Eli - I think he's a solid QB who plays his best ball with the chips on the line. Sure, he's guilty of some bad reads/throws (especially high over mid or grounded to RB), but he's probably among the best clutch QB's of this generation. He's a winner, and given a solid OL to give him a few seconds and a threat to run the ball, and some nice receiving threats that I hope this new offense can put him on the same page as, he could easily put up another top 5-10 numerical season. But I could care less for the #'s, the guy plays well when you need a play for the most part. He needs the guys around him, but he's a definite gamer that I'd take on my team any day.

Hope they do doubt him - I'm not totally convinced on this OL, but I think we improved our run game and added receiving threats (bet Beckham does better than Nicks last year...). TE is a question, but have a feeling we get another solid season from a 'no-one', and the new offense helps involve the RB's more to open things up for what I feel are a talented bunch of WR's. If the OL can give time and get some running push, we could surprise on O this year. Let's just hope our D can improve on last year too.
RE: RE: this is all pretty  
BrettNYG10 : 7/3/2014 8:44 pm : link
In comment 11754437 SanFranGiantsFan said:
Quote:
In comment 11754330 area junc said:


Quote:


obvious to non-Giants fans. he's been very good at times, great in 2011, but the last 2 years he's been one of the worst starting QBs in the league and there are all kinds of numbers to support that. big eli fan, too, love his character and appreciate him playing in the most complicated O in the league for 10 years



He was one of the worst QBs in 2012? Uh, no. He didn't have a great '12 season, especially in comparsion to '11, but he was good.

In '13 he sucked, though I chalk it up to one of the worst OLs ever. That was football malpractice of the highest order. Throw in the fact we had no running game, Nicks was in the clouds, & it all added up to a dreadful season.

Fact is that the man is a 2 time Super Bowl winner & MVP. He'll never shut all the critics up, but who cares? He's got the rings & hardware. He's the best Giants QB of my lifetime & will be hard to replace when he does hang up the cleats.


Eli was pretty bad the last half of the season but had a great start to the season.

I hope Eli has a fucking great year. We aren't going far if he doesn't.
we are paying him a great deal of money  
mdc1 : 7/3/2014 8:50 pm : link
he needs to elevate his game to tier 1, else why the excessive compensation? We could use that money on defense on other things to win more games.

Eli's achievements have surpassed his talent level.  
Blue Meanie : 7/3/2014 8:51 pm : link
He should be commended.
i  
blue42 : 7/3/2014 9:19 pm : link
would ask the question like this.

Q. Do you consider the N.E.Patriots 17-0 team an elite team?

A. Do you consider Eli Manning an elite qb?

or....

if you beat the acknowledged best coach in history and best qb in history twice in the sb....are you an elite qb?

Take your pick.
Odd commentary from Raanan  
Chicken Teriyaki Boy : 7/3/2014 9:35 pm : link
given that:

"Overall, Manning was given a 2.23 average rating. That tied him with Matt Ryan, Tony Romo and Russell Wilson for eighth among all quarterbacks. Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, Matthew Stafford, Colin Kaepernick and Nick Foles joined them in Tier 2."
wait...is this all based on  
SHO'NUFF : 7/3/2014 9:37 pm : link
Eli WITH Gilbride...or WITHOUT?
If Eli throws for say 4,000 yards, 25 TD's, 12 interceptions  
SGMen : 7/3/2014 10:14 pm : link
and generally manages games very well the entire league perception will change. Especially if we win the division and win a playoff game.

I don't think our offense will hit its stride until after the bye week but before that Eli must keep turnovers down and let our run game take charge. Our defense should be pretty solid even with Beason out and Will Hill cut (still hurts to write that - the kid is just talented but messed up).

Solid special teams, solid run game, solid short passing game with Jennings now able to catch from the RB position, and quick throws to keep sacks down. Win the close games early with defense, run game, specials and hope the offense begins to click more and more with each week.
It's the old argument....  
Doomster : 7/3/2014 10:17 pm : link
QB's get all the credit when they win, and all the blame when they don't.....

2007, 23 td's, 20 int's, 3300 yards, 56% completions....certainly not elite numbers.....but he put it all together in the playoffs and outplayed qb's ranked better than him.....

2011, if ever a QB put a team on his back, Eli did, especially when you consider what he had for an OL and running game....

He has had one elite season in his career.....can almost be described as streaky....

2012, he had 26 td's, but 8 were in 2 games(the last game against Philly padded his stats for the year), meaning he had just 18 in the other 14 games....

Last year was abysmal...the pick 6's, the missed throws.....

Now a new system....we need to see something in preseason...the offense sucked in preseason last year, and most just fluffed it off as nothing.....another bad year will tarnish Eli's legacy.....but if he has another joke for an OL this year, how do you really assess him?
...  
SoDev : 7/3/2014 10:23 pm : link
What did Eli Manning say to the critics?
Nothing, he already told them twice.
Eli has many critics because of he can look  
Jimmy Googs : 7/3/2014 10:38 pm : link
like a Rookie, at times, in almost every season he has played.

I like him a lot because of his achievements and his will to win, but clearly not because of his consistency (or lack thereof).

I do expect a pretty big bounce-back season in 2014.

if 2nd tier  
jbeintherockies : 7/4/2014 12:53 am : link
If Eli is second tier, what does that say about his teammates and the coaching staff? They have two super bowls with a second tier QB.

The guy has two super bowl wins; MVP in both. The teams are winning because of him, not in spite of him. Surround him with another good football team, and he will win another one. I don't think Eli changes much; he seems like a very level person.

That article is very telling. Personnel people are looking for the big numbers, big 'splash' guy. Coaches are looking for something else.
The NFC East has been competitive  
SHO'NUFF : 7/4/2014 1:13 am : link
for most of Eli's years...and has usually been home to some of the toughest defenses in the league, year after year.
Last year  
bc4life : 7/4/2014 6:33 am : link
shouldn't even count - run game 83 yards/game and constant pressure
Eli was a large part in the Giants  
crick78 : 7/4/2014 8:19 am : link
winning two super bowls, something i never could have imagined. I don't care about any of that other crap. If Eli put up the fantasy football stats people want, but couldn't win a championship something would be missing. Nothing is missing from his career in my view.
Why is evaluating a player's standing meaningful?  
awm34 : 7/4/2014 9:11 am : link
Sorry, I don't get it. What's really important is the next play in the next game. Period. And for that, wouldn't most all of us be delighted to have Eli at the helm?
RE: Two Super Bowl MVPs  
Britt in VA : 7/4/2014 9:55 am : link
In comment 11754312 djm said:
Quote:
Have really mellowed my stance on Eli. I've accepted that Eli is going to go down as one of the weirdest, enigmatic and up and down high profile championship players in recent memory. He's a tough guy to judge but with shit like this I've learned to keep it simple. The guy delivered me two Super Bowl titles. He was huge in both post season runs. Ever since Eli arrived in north jersey the giants have been under the NFL's spotlight and microscope -- and they have flourished both on and off the field. Eli and Coughlin put this team back on the map.

Maybe some of the scrutiny is over the top and unfair. Maybe it's the system at times maybe it's just Eli being a bit inconsistent. I really don't care anymore because all that matters is the rings and we've gotten two. That's an incredible run and it's not over yet.

I've given up fighting the good fight and defending Eli's play, for the most part, although every now n then i will cut some moron NYG fan down a bit if they really bash Eli. You know when it's clear that Eli is a bad ass QB? When you talk to knowledgeable fans of opposing teams. Go talk to a Dallas or jets fan that can walk and chew gum at the same time and see how they view Eli. They all give him high praise.

There are giants fan who won't appreciate Eli until he's gone but I assure you the fans who have suffered at the hands of Eli? They respect him. That's all I need to know. The guy is an assassin.


This sums up my stance, as well. Nice post, djm.
The NFL's perception  
Spyder : 7/4/2014 10:23 am : link
has a very short term memory, which is not very surprising. So much easier to remember the Eli lowlights, while forgetting the awful OL and the generally bad performance from the pass catchers in 2013.

Not to make excuses either, Eli did have a very poor year, as he would agree, last year was no where near to the high standards he has already set for himself.

Yet as many here have already pointed out, Eli is the best QB the Giants have ever had. That's where I start.

The NFL people that put him in the second tier, below only Brady, Peyton, Rodgers and Brees have it about right.

The thing about Eli that Giant fans know is he can be elite, when he gets protection up front, and his wides perform. Having a threat at TE and a credible running game will help.

This new system Ben brings might really tune the Eli station back to "elite".
there is always going to be prejudice against ELI  
oipolloi : 7/4/2014 12:14 pm : link
1. he forced his way out of SD.
2. he is in the shadow of Peyton
3. he plays in NY
4. he looks awkward

those factors are going to lower his score just a bit across a broad spectrum.

that said, I think 8th is about right. I'd put him 5th.
Heh,  
Randy in CT : 7/4/2014 1:15 pm : link
Yeah, I'm a fucking fan of the team. And that means I watch Eli a lot. To say "he sucked" last season to me means you didn't watch the games/or just looked at his fantasy numbers, or you were so distraught at the season that you needed a scapegoat. Look at the rushing stats and the receiving stats and see how that jibes with what you were watching--A QB with little time/under constant pressure and RBs with no holes....


Hmmmm, there's a common denominator and it was clear to the team as they overhauled the Oline.
RE: Heh,  
Big Blue '56 : 7/4/2014 2:26 pm : link
In comment 11755478 Randy in CT said:
Quote:
Yeah, I'm a fucking fan of the team. And that means I watch Eli a lot. To say "he sucked" last season to me means you didn't watch the games/or just looked at his fantasy numbers, or you were so distraught at the season that you needed a scapegoat. Look at the rushing stats and the receiving stats and see how that jibes with what you were watching--A QB with little time/under constant pressure and RBs with no holes....


Hmmmm, there's a common denominator and it was clear to the team as they overhauled the Oline.


Brady and the other immobile QB, Peyton, wouldn't do all that much better, with similar "protection."
Let's face it,  
Doomster : 7/4/2014 2:43 pm : link
when anyone in the media looks at a qb, yes, they want championships, but they also want a thing called consistency....

Eli has had two great, not good, great, runs in the playoffs...

But here is where the consistency comes in....Eli has only had 2 out of 10 seasons where his team has won a playoff game.....

He has only had one season where he threw over 30 td's.....he has only had one season where he threw well over 4000 yards.....he has more seasons throwing under 60% than over.....he's only had one season where his td/int ratio is 2:1.....

He has had one elite season.....so a non Giant fan would look at all that, and downgrade him......we, as Giant fans, look at two SB's that no one gave us a chance to win, and tend to look at Eli, maybe a little better than he is....fans being fans....

Is he the greatest Giant QB ever? Tittle went to 3 straight championship games and couldn't deliver.....Simms played more games that Eli, and he trails Eli, in just about all departments.....if Phil doesn't get hurt in 1990, it would tighten the debate.....But I don't think there is any doubt that Eli, while not the most consistent of qb's, is the greatest qb the Giants ever had.....
All you need to know:  
Big Blue '56 : 7/4/2014 2:50 pm : link
Teams and records at the time they faced them in playoffs:

2008(2007):

TB: 10-6-Away

Dallas: 13-3-Away

GB: 14-3-Away

NE: 18-0-Neutral

Total record of teams faced in 2008 playoffs: 55-12



2012(2011):

Atl: 10-6-Home

GB: 15-1-Away

49ers: 14-3-Away

NE: 15-3-Neutral

Total record of teams faced in 2012 playoffs: 54-13

The above includes beating the 1 and 2 seeds each SB year

It also includes just ONE home game in the two playoffs en toto.

The plays made by Eli in those runs to wit: First half final drive against Dallas, 2007, GB OT game exploitation with Plax in -23 degree weather, The SB escape and toss to Tyree, the 3rd and 11 to Smith, the Bradshaw throw streaking down the sidelines against SF in 2011, the Manningham throw in the SB and ones I cannot think of off the top of my head, displayed the Elite, clutch pedigree of Eli..That's not to mention and it certainly needs to be underscored, two of the best final drives in the history of the SB..

That's elite..That's what you pray for in a frnchise QB

Btw, Peyton will go down as arguably the best ever QB,  
Big Blue '56 : 7/4/2014 3:06 pm : link
yet in clutch, defining moments, he's hardly been elite. Clutch is and always will be my measurement..

Peyton's been in 3 SBs..The won the Colts won, he was thisshort of total crap throughout the playoffs and the SB..The unexpected rose of his D during the playoffs saved his ass..

I can't think of many clutch defining play he made during those three SB runs..Is he the better QB than Eli? Ues, even Eli acknowledges that..But outside of Brady, I can't think of a whole lot of QBs that are as wlite clutch as Eli..Sorry if he can't win a SB or make the playoffs every year..He's been crap for two seasons (yes, even when the protection held up, he had his brain fart moments) as his OL did him no favors. He can overcome less than stellar OLs(our 2011 run, for example), but complete crap? No, as I said above, even Brady and Peyton could not overcome that, imv..
The year the Colts won  
Big Blue '56 : 7/4/2014 3:07 pm : link
.
Eli is  
Les in TO : 7/4/2014 3:23 pm : link
clutch in the playoffs and big games. He's got ice in his veins.

That being said, he's not consistently locked in all game every game for a 16 game season. He makes too many mistakes and takes too many risks to be rated a 1. He tends to start off slowly in games. He'll try to force things rather than take a check down or t hrow the ball away and live to see another day.

He can be brilliant at times and in the words of Tiki comical at other times.
3:06 post fixed  
Big Blue '56 : 7/4/2014 3:28 pm : link
Btw, Peyton will go down as arguably the best ever QB,
yet in clutch, defining moments, he's hardly been elite. Clutch is and always will be my measurement..

Peyton's been in 3 SBs..The year the Colts won, he was thisshort of total crap throughout the playoffs and the SB..The unexpected rise of his D during the playoffs saved his ass..

I can't think of many clutch defining plays he made during those three SB runs..Is he the better QB than Eli? Yes, even Eli acknowledges that..But outside of Brady, I can't think of a whole lot of QBs that are as elite clutch as Eli..Sorry if he can't win a SB or make the playoffs every year..He's been crap for two seasons (yes, even when the protection held up, he had his brain fart moments) as his OL did him no favors. He can overcome less than stellar OLs (as our 2011 run will attest), but complete crap? No, as I said above, even Brady and Peyton could not overcome that, imv..
RE: The problem with the  
River Mike : 7/4/2014 5:13 pm : link
In comment 11754946 Riggies said:
Quote:
have missed the playoffs, out of a more often than not thoroughly unimpressive division, 5 out of his 10 years in the league and if he had better stats -- most of the ones people despise -- in those five seasons, they would have had a much, much better chance of making them.

No Giant fan in their right mind would ever not be extremely appreciative of the role he's played in two SB titles or, accounting for both accomplishment and longevity, deny that he's almost certainly the best QB the Giants have ever had, but those two runs don't make anything and everything else irrelevant when evaluating him as an individual player, his place in history or the league currently.


Good, balanced post. I love Eli. I love him as our QB and as the face of our franchise. The only thing I hate is the idiots that throw around the immature "Hater" label if anyone dares to voice any criticism.
Montana  
BigBlueCane : 7/4/2014 6:17 pm : link
will always be the best QB of the modern era.

Not a contest between him and Peyton. As many records as Manning will have when he retires, you simply cannot compare these two given all the rule changes that blatantly favor the offense and how badly Peyton has struggled in big moments.
all yhis debating is never ending when it comes to Eli  
Geeman : 7/4/2014 7:30 pm : link
I've always said he's a very good QB who is capable of elite clutch play but his inconsistent cy has always kept him from elite status.
The biggest factor that everyone glosses over are the defenses. If our defense does step up which they did in both of the SBs runs.....the Giants don't win those SBs.
Fans need to take a step back and recognize just how good those Pat offenses were that those Giants defenses held Down and allowed Eli to make his clutch play heroics.
Most Giant fans cannot objectively evaluate Eli without there emotion s getting involved.
Just appreciate him while he's still playing for what he is which the greatest QB in franchise history even if that's a cut below elite status in the league or the HOF.
To pose questions like what QB with 2 SB wins isn't in the HOF is ridiculous.
Eli's career is unique to himself and few compare to both his highs and lows so that little known fact will not garner HOF induction.
It's unfortunate that these discussions tend to get so ugly.
Here is a post from a  
AnishPatel : 7/5/2014 10:54 am : link
dallas fan that I was talking to getting on Eli.


Quote:
Eli gets a pass b/c he had a defense that held two of the best offenses in history to 15 and 14 points in Super Bowls. All he's proven is that if you have the best defense in football ANY quarterback can win. He will be only the 2nd QB in NFL history w/ 2 Super Bowls to not make the Hall of Fame. I'd say he gets too much credit for his defense and not enough criticism for his own body of work. You'd be hard-pressed to find ANY starting NFL QB who wouldn't have 2 rings when their defense gives up 14 ppg in the playoffs like the Giants did those two years.



Reading other non giants NFL fans posts it's usually the same sentiment.
Yeah, because Eli was the ONLY Super Bowl winning QB...  
Klaatu : 7/5/2014 11:46 am : link
To benefit from having a dominant defense. Gimme a break. What Super Bowl champions didn't have a good, if not great defense? It's just another excuse to dump on the guy who didn't want to play for San Diego.
The Giants could not have won 2 Superbowls with out Eli.  
BigBlueFan4014 : 7/5/2014 4:01 pm : link
Other than the Saints, Packers and Colts no team has recently won the Super Bowl using offense. The Colts and the Patriots had outstanding defense when they won the Superbowl. The Packers and Saints also had above average defense when they won as well. Other than Chris Snee and possibly Victor Cruz or JPP the Giants didn't have any Hall of Fame Talent to win the 2012 Superbowl and no team wins the Superbowl without a player in the Hall of Fame. Also no team wins the Superbowl with out clutch QB play unless they have a legendary defense. Just look at the 49ers. They always fall short because they don't have either a legendary defense or a great QB.

Other than the 2007 and 2008 Season the Giants haven't had that much talent on offense. They also had lots of injuries. The team has been built to win on Defense and Clutch QB play. In the 2012 Season even with Victor Cruz the Giants don't have the talent for an QB but Eli to throw 4000 yards. The Giants weren't even planning on Eli to throw 4000 yards and with out Eli the Giants could have ended up with a record that is much worse.
RE: The NFL's perception  
BigBlueinChicago : 7/5/2014 6:14 pm : link
In comment 11755324 Spyder said:
Quote:
has a very short term memory, which is not very surprising.


As do NFL teams. They are correct in this.

They don't pay or judge players at any position other than quarterback based on what happened 3 years ago. The ones that do have no other choice because of the financial commitment to them.




Who cares what the perception is  
batwood06 : 7/6/2014 12:16 pm : link
The NFL insiders agreed that:

- Jamarcus Russell was worthy of the #1 pick in 2007 and would overcome his maturity issues
- Jake Locker and Christian Ponder were 1st rd grade qb's
- Matt Schaub is an elite level QB who would lead the Texans deep into the playoffs
- Nick Foles was a man without a country in PHI and that Mike Vick was the perfect qb for Chip Kelly's system

I will take Eli every time over the hit or miss performances of Stafford/Bradford or the franchise-humiliating behavior of Ben Roethlisberger. Great players make great plays in huge games and Eli has done that.
batwood06  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/6/2014 12:21 pm : link
good post
Eli will rebound  
PEEJ : 7/6/2014 12:29 pm : link
like Phil Simms did in his first year with Reeves. New coach, new system…Pro Bowl.
As dumb as the comment was about "judging football knowledge"  
BlueLou : 7/6/2014 4:29 pm : link
via appreciation of Eli as "great" (paraphrasing), this one is even better (ie dumber):

Quote:
Other than the 2007 and 2008 Season the Giants haven't had that much talent on offense.


Tiki, Plax, Toomer, Shockey, Jacobs, Bradshaw, Cruz, Steve Smith, Nicks, Manningham, 2 x 1,000 yard rushers in one year, arguably the #1 OL in the whole league for a few years (as a unit) with McKenzie, Snee, O'Hara, Seubert, and Diehl... During a 5 year span the Giants invested more at WR in the draft than any other team in the NFL.

It's flat out idiotic to say "the Giants haven't had that much talent" around Eli.

Bullshit.
People severely overrate  
dep026 : 7/6/2014 4:43 pm : link
the people we have had in our offense. Since 2007, we have had decent players but if you compared to them around the league, they are truly quite average.

Cruz is probably the best we have had since 2007, and last year he would barely crack the top 30 WRs in the NFL.
Well dep, I agree 100% with what you wrote!  
BlueLou : 7/6/2014 4:52 pm : link
Quote:
People severely overrate
dep026 : 4:43 pm : link : reply
the people we have had in our offense.



Especially Eli, right?
RE: Well dep, I agree 100% with what you wrote!  
dep026 : 7/6/2014 5:01 pm : link
In comment 11756949 BlueLou said:
Quote:


Quote:


People severely overrate
dep026 : 4:43 pm : link : reply
the people we have had in our offense.




Especially Eli, right?


I am not going to mince words to you, but ever since last year.... I find you dumber than any other troll that has come to this board. Your agenda of shitting on Eli all throughout last year and now on this thread is just too much to bare.

Not one person here said Eli is the best QB in the NFL. Not one person here said Eli was good last year. However, many people here believe that he is good enough to rise his game to be one of the league's best and win us another SB. So if you think thats "overrating" Eli, then you are dumber than I originally thought. Not one poster here thinks he is better than Peyton, Brady, Rodgers. But there is clear cut evidence on why we may choose him over a Big Ben or a Rivers or a Romo.

Now for someone as challenged as you, you cannot understand because you have and ALWAYS will hate Eli. So, you just bring nothing to this discussion other than to dimiss what others have said. No one is going over their top in praise for Eli. No one shits on him like you do - but yet you feel the need to continuously do this in every Eli thread.

The problem with uniformed people as yourselves is that you probably just watch Giants games (go ahead, admit you watch every game in the NFL because your a fantasy god, or that you love the game more than any one else.... no one will believe you), but you just see the failures of Eli as if he is the ONLY QB ever to have bad stretches and bad years. But guess what.... EVERY QB goes through bad stretches and makes plays that cost their teams game (Peyton is probably #1 on that list with all of his bad games in the playoffs). But you dont want to see that. You know what you do? Oh Romo is the the 4th rated fantasy player this year, so he must be really good nad better than Eli. Or you will look at the stat line and say... well Eli only threw for 160 yards this week, he must have been bad and he sucks.

Or as if you watch the Giants game, you will see Eli miss a deep ball over 60 yards down field missed by a half a yard and cry that Eli sucks and he has to make that throw. Or if Eli throws the ball in one spot and the WR is in the other, you will blame Eli because he was the one who threw it. I actually believe YOU were the poster blasting Eli for getting sacked like 6 times in 10 drop backs against Carolina earlier this year saying he needs to get rid of the ball....

So wrapping this up, do yourself a favor and dont post any of your trolling BS on Eli, because you know that is what you are doing. You dont know shit about the position. And you dont know shit about Eli.
Eli  
Blue Meanie : 7/6/2014 5:03 pm : link
has outperformed in accomplishments ( two super bowl MVP's) his personal talent level. He's not the most accurate passer nor the most consistent performer. He can stink it up with the best of them or get on a run like never before. Somehow he has helped to deliver two Super Bowl championships.

Should he be considered one of the all-time greats? No, because he has been too inconsistent. But his ability to deliver on the biggest stage cannot be denied.

I'll take that ...
dep, really...  
BlueLou : 7/6/2014 5:24 pm : link
you obviously don't have a clue regarding my posting history on Eli. I think he's a very good NFL QB.

I simply can't abide the homeristic views that many here have about him relative to the HOF or the elite QBs currently in this league meaning Peyton, Rogers, Brees, and Brady.

So I dump on those opinions. Your point about Cruz in 2012 ignores all that Cruz had done remarkably well to elevate Giants (and Eli) in 2011 and 2012. The way Cruz fell down (statistically) in 2013 is as much a result of Eli's, Nicks', and the OL's play as it was Cruz's. But you care to see it as evidence that Cruz isn't really that good?

The Giants' own FO doesn't agree with you, do they?

But you know more about the game and great QB play than I do, so I'm wasting my breath on you.

Good fair post by blue meanie above, dep. You should reread it until you have it memorized.
There is a simple way to look at this question  
PA Giant Fan : 7/6/2014 5:47 pm : link
You are the underdog team. You are entering the playoffs going on the road to face the best teams in the NFL.

How many QBs would you take over Eli to lead your team?

For me, there aren't any. Dude is a killer.
Well lets see  
dep026 : 7/6/2014 6:38 pm : link
Quote:
I simply can't abide the homeristic views that many here have about him relative to the HOF or the elite QBs currently in this league meaning Peyton, Rogers, Brees, and Brady.


Not one person here ever said he was as good as Peyton, Brady or Rodgers.... and if a very very select few did, they are wrong. And if you put Brees in the same class as the above 3, I was right before.... you are just a numbers guy who doesnt watch the game. Brees isnt nearly as good as the top 3.

And yes Eli has a realistic shot at the HOF. A guy in the top 10 in yards and TDs with 2 SB MVPs isnt a HOF? Could have fooled me.

Quote:
Your point about Cruz in 2012 ignores all that Cruz had done remarkably well to elevate Giants (and Eli) in 2011 and 2012. The way Cruz fell down (statistically) in 2013 is as much a result of Eli's, Nicks', and the OL's play as it was Cruz's. But you care to see it as evidence that Cruz isn't really that good?


1. Why is it that Cruz elevated Eli's play? Why isnt that Eli elevated Cruz game? Statements like that are just grabbign for straws because of your dislike of 1 player.

2. And why did everyone elses play bring down Cruz's play and not the other way around. A ton of people here had Cruz as a top 5 WR, yet he was only good enough to score 1 TD after week 1? He got absolutely shut down by Orlando Scandrick in the 2nd Cowboys game. If you are THAT good, you make plays. Cruz didnt make plays last year. He was ONE of the MANY reasons the whole year sucked. If you are going to glorify Cruz when he was great, then you have to call him out when he wasnt. And last year, he wasnt great. There is a reason why he didnt get the 10 million plus per year contract like so many WRs have and will get. He is a good at his craft, but he is not an elite WR.

Quote:
But you know more about the game and great QB play than I do, so I'm going to stop talking about Eli from here on out.


Smartest thing you have ever said. Build on this prior comment.
dep this thread was a discussion about Raanan's article,  
BlueLou : 7/6/2014 6:59 pm : link
which referenced a poll of NFL coaches and pro personnel men, that found the following:

Quote:
Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees tied for the top spot. Andrew Luck also joined them in Tier 1.

Eli Manning fell in the next level.


Dude, the pros put Brees on that level.

But you know better! Just stop, you are silly.
I don't think brees  
dep026 : 7/6/2014 7:15 pm : link
Is anywhere near the caliber of those 3 and there are many who agree. It's not a coincidence once Brees played the majority of his games over 70 degrees with no wind... he performed much better than he did in SD.

Look at where the top 3 QBs played last year...haha. and luck as much as I think is awesome.... isn't not in the same tier as them anyways. Not even close.

Just stop talking. Fantasy football starts soon enougj.
Dep,  
Big Blue '56 : 7/6/2014 7:23 pm : link
I have said Eli's the best clutch QB in football and I will not pull back from that..Naysayers will be proven wrong with better protection and schemes, imv
As I always say  
PaulBlakeTSU : 7/6/2014 7:34 pm : link
I don't judge a QB by what he can do when surrounded by complete shit, but rather what they can do when they are put in a position to succeed. For the last few years, the Giants have had an embarrassment and hazard for an offensive line, and a revolving door of injured running backs and wide receivers, and an annual carousel of tight ends. On top of all that, the Giants played in a system that relied on strong offensive line play and stability of the skill positions to master the option-routed vertical offense. It was a perfect storm for disastrous offensive results and that's what we saw.

Could other QBs have done better? Of course. Put in a mobile QB and the Giants would have been more productive because such a QB could have eluded the incessant pressure. But what would that have accomplished? An extra win and some better stats? No QB in the history of the sport was turning last year's Giants into a winner.

But put Eli in a winnable situation, and he has the poise, the balls, and the toughness to make the necessary big plays to win.

I am very happy that the Giants finally changed offensive schemes, but I am still concerned that the Giants have neither a big-bodied receiver nor stability or production at tight end that they can rely on as a security blanket to move the chains and keep drives alive. I also don't know if the O-line has been fixed yet.
RE: Here is a post from a  
blakjedi : 7/7/2014 9:41 am : link
In comment 11755984 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
dallas fan that I was talking to getting on Eli.




Quote:


Eli gets a pass b/c he had a defense that held two of the best offenses in history to 15 and 14 points in Super Bowls. All he's proven is that if you have the best defense in football ANY quarterback can win. He will be only the 2nd QB in NFL history w/ 2 Super Bowls to not make the Hall of Fame. I'd say he gets too much credit for his defense and not enough criticism for his own body of work. You'd be hard-pressed to find ANY starting NFL QB who wouldn't have 2 rings when their defense gives up 14 ppg in the playoffs like the Giants did those two years.




Reading other non giants NFL fans posts it's usually the same sentiment.


clearly your dallas friend doesnt know the meaning of "the best defense in football". The Giants were hardly that in 2007 certainly not in 2011.

2007: Scored 373 points (23.3/g), 14th of 32 in the NFL. Allowed 351 points (21.9/g), 17th.

So the Giants offense was categorically better than the defense in 2007.

2011: Scored 394 points (24.6/g), 9th of 32 in the NFL. Allowed 400 points (25.0/g), 25th.

This... 9th versus 25th is clear proof that your friend is a total and utter idiot.
blakjedi  
AnishPatel : 7/7/2014 10:32 am : link
Not my friend. I was talking about Romo with other Dallas fans, and this dude, must have got butt hurt. So he decided to rip on Eli.

My point was this is usually the popular points raised by non giants fans. Usually the good ole, Eli got lucky, defense saved him, and so forth. Some may even say put any QB in that situation and they'd have 2 rings.

I agree with you though. In order to clear any of that, Eli needs a few seasons were he get rack up stats. For example, like a 35 Tds, 10 Ints type season throwing for 4200-4500 yards.

Give me that for a few years and people will change their tune.
I don't think  
PaulBlakeTSU : 7/7/2014 10:56 am : link
Eli will ever put up those kinds of numbers without a big-target WR or TE, or a solid running game-- something that can keep drives alive, the chains moving, and don't require Eli to play hero-ball.

Eli is the type of QB who trusts his receivers to make plays and win the ball. He is better suited at seeing the holes in the defense and throwing to those spots rather than seeing a receiver make a cut and hitting them perfectly in stride.

Given the size of our receivers, shaky O-line, and non-existant TE, I just don't see how Eli could be in a situation where he will be able to just pick apart defenses and not have to make plenty of risky throws to put up a 35/10 season.
Oh, I dont  
AnishPatel : 7/7/2014 1:26 pm : link
think he will get those numbers. Those are the numbers he needs for a few years or another SB win to help change peoples opinion regarding him.

I think he can be productive in this system. It would be nice if Ben M. can help with Eli getting him his stats. So meaning if we are on the goal line instead of running the ball, throwing to a FB or RB towards the pylon instead. Get those 1 or 2 yard TD passes. I am looking forward to this system change. I been wanting this for a long time now.
RE: I don't think brees  
Jimmy Googs : 7/7/2014 2:09 pm : link
In comment 11757042 dep026 said:
Quote:
Is anywhere near the caliber of those 3 (Brady, Manning and Rodgers) and there are many who agree. It's not a coincidence once Brees played the majority of his games over 70 degrees with no wind... he performed much better than he did in SD.


I disagree Dep. Brees is very close to the caliber of those other 3. While I would put him 4th, he is not very far away at all.
RE: blakjedi  
blakjedi : 7/7/2014 3:00 pm : link
In comment 11757622 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
Not my friend. I was talking about Romo with other Dallas fans, and this dude, must have got butt hurt. So he decided to rip on Eli.


Heh..:) I just wanted to give some lightweight stats to absolutely refute their stance.. good luck with them next time... lol
RE: RE: I don't think brees  
dep026 : 7/7/2014 10:35 pm : link
In comment 11758055 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 11757042 dep026 said:


Quote:


Is anywhere near the caliber of those 3 (Brady, Manning and Rodgers) and there are many who agree. It's not a coincidence once Brees played the majority of his games over 70 degrees with no wind... he performed much better than he did in SD.




I disagree Dep. Brees is very close to the caliber of those other 3. While I would put him 4th, he is not very far away at all.


I would put him 4th as well. But not in the same echelon as the top 3.

Brees has played a total of 7 games in under 40 degree weather. And he has played for 12 years! I think he benefits more than any QB probably in history of his environment.
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