& Snee really needs to be pushed. He was very good-perhaps great-for a time, but he's done. And he's going to be a liability for this line.
Hope Beatty can bounce back. I think some of his struggles last year were attributable to the rest of the OL being a complete disaster & don't discount the self inflicted pressure he put on himself after signing that new deal.
OL can't be any worse in '14 than it was in '13 so at least we got that going for us.
needs to retire. He will almost certainly do so after this year, so keeping him just uses a roster spot that should be given to someone else. His body has broken down. He needs to think about his family and his future. He's made his money and won two SBs.
Kind of see things the way you do. RE: Jerry - his health and if he really wants to be the player many thought he'd be will determine the value of that signing. If he doesn't meet his potential, he'll still be better than any reserve we had here last year. And, Mosely has shown some ability.
both because of his recent struggles and his major cap hit, which should be less damaging to remove next offseason should his struggles continue.
I want to see Richburg in the lineup if he's ready, making the health of Walton and Snee vital to making sound football decisions (not based on loyalty or veteran status) during camp.
Brewer had an awful 2013, but am I incorrect in recalling that he played well whenever he was at RG?
And FWIW, even in the best years of the Coughlin regime, the Giants never had a lock-down, dynamite LT. Diehl was good, and did what he had to, but the right side of that line was the dominant side. Point is - I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Brown and even eventually Beatty can get to that level. In fact, I'd venture to say that prior to last season, Beatty has played at that level.
I get you did not want to go out injured from 2013, but coming back to essentially play 1 year when you may not be healed makes zero sense.
What I still do not get is that the coaching staff thinks it is good idea for him to be getting 1st team snaps. He is not here next year so why not get someone young in there now and get the experience. The young guys may not pan out but I would rather see what they may be capable of.
OL can't be any worse in '14 than it was in '13 so at least we got
Four possible new starters in the OL? That is a huge red flag?
It sometimes takes years for an OL to be a cohesive unit....what Reese is doing, is playing plug 'n play here.....we have no idea what these guys can do, as a unit....add to that, a new offensive system....add to that the lack of a good starting TE....
Could the line be better? Yes, if there are no injuries, and these guys somehow gel, and Eli gets rid of the ball more quickly.....
Beatty.....coming off a bad year AND a broken leg.....did he warrant the contract he got or was he in the right place at the right time, like Baas? If he can't go at the start of the season, there isn't much on this roster for a replacement....
Schwartz? Played well in the KC system...how will he do in this new system?
Center....a rookie and an injured player trying to get on the field....
Snee? His best days are way behind him.....will be surprised if he makes the cut...once again, there isn't much on the roster to replace him.....
Pugh...played better than expected last year....kind of sad when a solid, not spectacular 2nd year lineman is the rock of your OL.....He has to continue to improve, especially on his own, because I think we will see the TE lined up more on the opposite side of the line.....
It amazes me that many on BBI think Reese has solved the OL problems of last year......to me, this OL is just treading water.....there are no backups for this OL.....so just about any injury could be catastrophic.....
Yes, a quick passing game will help the OL as far as how long they have to hold their blocks.....it remains to be seen if this line can run block.....
If this line doesn't come together at the start of the season, with a new offensive scheme, this could be a long learning process, and a poor start up to the bye, with Indy Seattle, and the Niner's coming after the bye, the season could be over.....
The pressure on McAdoo and the offense will be great, because I don't think this DL will be as good as last year, and it will give up points.....if this teams trails like last year, will the Giants resort to the long ball game like last year? And with this OL, can they do that?
No one can predict how this OL will pan out.....we saw how this offense sputtered in preseason last season, and kind of looked the other way.....
This preseason will be very important for this offense....would not be surprised to see the starters playing a lot in the first half, to try and get something going....
The OL will be the key to the Giant's season.....If it gels, with a weak NFC East, we have a shot at the division....if it doesn't, another season where this team does not make the playoffs......
I am comfortable with either Mosley or Jerry replacing Snee
I am not comfortable with any of the likely subs for Beatty currently on the team. Brown and Brewer are just scary bad.
One possibility that I hope pre season explores would be Jerry at ORT and Pugh at OLT. Jerry is a good pass blocker or at least was and I think Pugh has the feet to play OLT. But that would mean a complete OL reshuffling which does not bode well for a good start to the season.
I have to agree regarding Snee and a roster spot. The chances of him surviving the season unhurt are slim to none! He is a shell of his former self performance wise! Mosley and Jerry are much younger and healthier options! The Giants let DD hang on too long and he contributed very little. Seubert and O'Hara were shown the door. Its time to man up and walk away.
Backups, are in reality are few and far between in the NFL for OL.
Jerry is a guy who has started 45 of 57 games. His play was never considered poor, but just not dominant. Right now he is a backup
Brown played last year as his 1st full time opportunity
Richburg was drafted high to play either G or C
Mosely has shown ability to play.
In a salary cap league with restricted number of roster spots, exactly what kind of quality depth are you looking to find that fits in a cap.
Are they devoid of top 5 talent at OL positions, yes - but you do not need that to succeed in the league.
So many want to look at SF OL and how great it is. GO look at their numbers of many passes they attempt vs sack and pressures given up - they are awful. They give up a huge amount of pressure that their QB hides
"Breakdown" is a poor choice of words for this Unit
I am worried. I still think they should have taken Martin in Round 1 and still take Richburg. How can you count on Beatty to be ready, let alone play at a high level? I don't think Snee makes it out of camp. Walton sounds like a gut we all will like IF he is healthy and reverts to his form of 2 years ago. Big if.
Eric: Liked the write-up very much but two comments:
Agree with you that LT is the key position to be worried about because it protects Eli's blind side. Thus, Beatty being available to play AND playing at his 2012 level, is the key player on the line. Charles Brown is next up and while I'm hesitant about him, I realize he was benched because Robert Quinn destroyed him last year. Quinn, however, was named NFL Defensive Player of the Week three times last year and had 19 sacks in 2013. I don't believe that one game makes or breaks a player's career. So, hopefully, a new team, new line coach and new offensive system will help Brown become a better player.
The other key issue IMO is whether Snee makes the final roster and, if so, whether as a starter or as a sub. What bothers me about Snee is that he is preventing the Giants from playing Schwartz from playing his natural position, which is RG (or RT). IIRC Schwartz has only played on the RIGHT side (RG AND RT) in college and in the pros. I think Snee has been a TERRIFIC player for the Giants but he's probably in his last year and his playing skills and body have considerably diminished. IMO the Giants should shift Schwartz to his natural position, which is RG and consider Snee to be a sub. That would leave LG open. Jerry has only played RG and, so, he would have to learn how to play LG but I'd rather have him learn LG play than move Schwartz to LG. Mosley, Brewer and Richburg would also be candidates to play LG. Of the latter three, Brewer would seem to be on the bubble because he did not play well at LG last year
Eric Herman is coming off surgery and, thus, who knows. Rogers Gaines, Jamaal Johnson-Webb and Troy Kropog, all OTs, seem to be camp fodder at this time. IMO the only other OT who MIGHT have a chance to make the final roster is Demarcus Love, based on his measureables.
So, Eric, I agree with your list of OL who make the final roster, adding only Love to the list because he has a slight chance.
As fans, right now, we have little option but to trust that the team did its due diligence on Walton before signing him to a contract for a starter's salary. If he's OK, 3/5ths of the line is filled with probably-pretty-good players (Pugh at RT; Schwartz at one of the G spots).
It's reasonable to expect that somebody out of Snee, Richburg, Jerry, Mosley, or Brewer will be able to provide at-least-decent play at the other Guard position.
Which leaves Beatty & Brown at left tackle as the likely problem. This can be managed. We already know that the new OC will be doing more quick passing, and weakness at 1 OT spot can be dealt with, if the team is strong at the other OT spot and has some RBs and TEs with blocking ability.
a bit overblown. Richie Seubert came back from a far worse injury. Walton had a broken ankle then an infection that kept him off the field. The extra year probably strengthen that ankle - allowing full recovery.
I agree with Eric, Beatty is the key, plus in Brown they have a viable back up. This line is in much better shape this year than last.
Is there any reason to think Scwhartz who came from a west coast system in KC cannot play in McAdoo's system, also a WC hybrid?
Walton - dismissing him as a injured player is ignoring the first years of his career. He was a solid player who had an ankle injury that developed complications. By all reports he is ready to go - so how does that make him an injured player?
And yeah his backup is a rookie a 2nd rounder. 2nd rounders often start and even thrive in this league.
RE: no backups - Mosley, Jerry, Brown - the OLine is way better than they were last year, when we were starting guys who would not make a lot of nfl rosters.
And, I don't know how you can predict how the DL will play, particularly a decline in performance.
And, they drafted a RT last year who played well, improved as the year went on and worked hi ass off during the off season.
I would not be surprised to see him leave on his terms if things do not work out. If he keeps getting dinged up or his performance is mediocre - I can see him announcing his retirement.
Needing a TE as well as additional strength on the OL, after having signed Walton and Jerry, and not able to know whether either Beatty or Snee would be ready or able, no TE, G or LT was chosen in the draft. Instead we got Richburg, a C -- an odd choice even if a welcome one. Was he picked to be a back-up this year? Odder still. (One could have said the same if an LT or a G had been picked and Beatty and Snee both come through after all. TE remains a dead zone.) So they must have thought Richburg could compete at G as well as C to start, don't you think, even though his weight and experience argue against it? They've denied this by insisting that he's a C period, though able to play at G. Camp will answer this.
Makes no sense for him to do so now, after having accepted a pay cut and shown up for offseason activities. If he can't play, the team IRs him, and he makes a million bucks sitting on his couch. Retirement would amount to the same thing, minus the $1MM. What kind of idiot would do that?
Needing a TE as well as additional strength on the OL, after having signed Walton and Jerry, and not able to know whether either Beatty or Snee would be ready or able, no TE, G or LT was chosen in the draft. Instead we got Richburg, a C -- an odd choice even if a welcome one. Was he picked to be a back-up this year? Odder still. (One could have said the same if an LT or a G had been picked and Beatty and Snee both come through after all. TE remains a dead zone.) So they must have thought Richburg could compete at G as well as C to start, don't you think, even though his weight and experience argue against it? They've denied this by insisting that he's a C period, though able to play at G. Camp will answer this.
What is so odd about the Giants expecting a rookie to take a year on the bench before he's ready to start? That's how they've generally operated for at least a decade.
Richburg was picked to be depth and competition in 2014, and a starter for 2015-2017. He'll take snaps at G in camp because it makes the gameday-active roster math easier if your backup C can also be a backup G.
Maybe "odd" was a poor choice of words. I know that it has been SOP for thew Giants to sit draft choices for at least a year. But the weaknesses of the OL doomed the team last year and they knew that when they drafted as they did. So maybe it's not to be SOP this year.
the giants wanted a TE in the 2nd round but he wasnt available
Or, again, they're thinking about more than just 2014. If you assume that the team isn't going to count on a rookie to deliver much in his first season, and that the draft is mostly about years 2-4 of the guys' rookie contracts, C is just as big a need as TE is. And, it's a higher-paid position, so if you're going to have to hit the FA market in 2015 to fill one of those needs, you'd rather it be TE.
*So as I see it you can play either Beatty / Jerry / Brown at LT - hopefully Beatty but he probably starts the season as a PUP - if not Beatty hopefully Jerry - and then Brown would be the third option - hopefully Brown's over the yips and is in a better environment at Giants Stadium - I think these are three are each very viable options
**Snee and Beatty will more than likely PUP and Richburg will start at RG to open the season if Walton is healthy - I think that both Walton and Jerry are going to be big additions to the Oline personnel in addition to Richburg and Schwartz
Only two TE's went before the Giants' second round pick...
Eric Ebron in first round and and Austin Seferian-Jenkins in second round.
Coughlin and Reese both said there were only a few TEs they liked in this draft. The Giants said only 14 were drafted (NFL.com tracker says only 10 were drafted).
So maybe they wanted Seferian-Jenkins more than Richburg, but they obviously didn't want someone else before him.
is that it probably puts the weaker G right next to the weaker T. If the left side is Mosely/Richburg/Jerry next to Beatty/Brown and I'm an opposing DC, I'm running all my best blitzes and stunts at that pair.
Until last year he was a journeyman and a backup. In KC, he got his chance to start due to an injury and performed well, but not well enough for KC to offer him much of a contract. If the Chiefs had matched the Giants offer, Schwartz would've returned, but they didn't. And to me that's a significant red flag. Throw in the fact that he will be playing for the first time on the left side on the line. So in my book he's a question mark.
He, himself, I think, stated that RG his his best position. So, we are putting him at LG because of Snee. That worries me. I understand the uncertainty with the left side of the line if Schwartz is on the right side but are we really counting on Snee? Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. If Schwartz is here for the foreseeable future then why not plug him in at RG and figure the rest out later? It isn't like we signed Schwartz at the end of our FA/Draft moves. We signed him very early in the process.
Robbie, I wouldn't be too concerned with where Schwartz is
slated to play at this point. Out of respect to Snee, it's penciled in as is right now. Snee's health, Mosley's progression, Jerry's health, and Richburg's progression are all gonna play out this training camp - and soon enough, I hope.
about where Schwartz plays in TRAINING CAMP..Where is the common sense? Of course they're going to SEE if Snee still has it at his old position. If he does(I have no idea one way or the other), then that's a plus for us and our strength/depth just got better..If he doesn't than nothing lost..Schwartz is a vet and will not miss much of a beat sliding back to ORG..
Snee won't be a Giant this year abd Mosley will be starting. He may beat out Snee straight up even if Snee is relatively healthy. Is Snee isn't a starter the Giants won't keep him as a backup.
The Giants have done well this off-season to fix the OL
At least they did as well as could be reasonably expected.
I agree with those that think that Walton was signed to start. He is not being paid like a back-up. The interesting move was drafting Richburg.
IMO, he was just too good to pass on. The Giants wanted an OL high in the draft and there was no G or T they liked there. Richburg may play Guard this season, but Walton looks like he can only play C.
I agree that LT is the most important question and Beatty is the key. We may need Brown to step up while Beatty heals.
As for RG - Snee is unlikely to play a majority of snaps there, as he is clearly breaking down (if not collapsing)
Richburg, Mosley and Jerry are the other possibilities.
I would say I'm more concerned then optimistic about the OL, but at least we have guys who have started in the NFL competing to play, as opposed to just a bunch of young guys we hope can play.
In comment 11760385 x meadowlander said:
[quote] Brewer had an awful 2013, but am I incorrect in recalling that he played well whenever he was at RG?
[quote]
Yes, you are incorrect.
Brewer is, at best, a backup to a backup on one of the weaker O-lines in the NFL. If he makes the 2014 roster, it is an indication that Giants still have some major issues...
post 100 %. With a shorter passing OC, Eli will not be punished as much.
I think we might see more screen passes and draw plays to keep the defense
honest. Maybe by some miracle we can find a tight end that's a good blocker.
Hope Beatty can bounce back. I think some of his struggles last year were attributable to the rest of the OL being a complete disaster & don't discount the self inflicted pressure he put on himself after signing that new deal.
OL can't be any worse in '14 than it was in '13 so at least we got that going for us.
Brown at tackle scares me.
LT is the major concern.
I want to see Richburg in the lineup if he's ready, making the health of Walton and Snee vital to making sound football decisions (not based on loyalty or veteran status) during camp.
And FWIW, even in the best years of the Coughlin regime, the Giants never had a lock-down, dynamite LT. Diehl was good, and did what he had to, but the right side of that line was the dominant side. Point is - I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Brown and even eventually Beatty can get to that level. In fact, I'd venture to say that prior to last season, Beatty has played at that level.
What I still do not get is that the coaching staff thinks it is good idea for him to be getting 1st team snaps. He is not here next year so why not get someone young in there now and get the experience. The young guys may not pan out but I would rather see what they may be capable of.
Four possible new starters in the OL? That is a huge red flag?
It sometimes takes years for an OL to be a cohesive unit....what Reese is doing, is playing plug 'n play here.....we have no idea what these guys can do, as a unit....add to that, a new offensive system....add to that the lack of a good starting TE....
Could the line be better? Yes, if there are no injuries, and these guys somehow gel, and Eli gets rid of the ball more quickly.....
Beatty.....coming off a bad year AND a broken leg.....did he warrant the contract he got or was he in the right place at the right time, like Baas? If he can't go at the start of the season, there isn't much on this roster for a replacement....
Schwartz? Played well in the KC system...how will he do in this new system?
Center....a rookie and an injured player trying to get on the field....
Snee? His best days are way behind him.....will be surprised if he makes the cut...once again, there isn't much on the roster to replace him.....
Pugh...played better than expected last year....kind of sad when a solid, not spectacular 2nd year lineman is the rock of your OL.....He has to continue to improve, especially on his own, because I think we will see the TE lined up more on the opposite side of the line.....
It amazes me that many on BBI think Reese has solved the OL problems of last year......to me, this OL is just treading water.....there are no backups for this OL.....so just about any injury could be catastrophic.....
Yes, a quick passing game will help the OL as far as how long they have to hold their blocks.....it remains to be seen if this line can run block.....
If this line doesn't come together at the start of the season, with a new offensive scheme, this could be a long learning process, and a poor start up to the bye, with Indy Seattle, and the Niner's coming after the bye, the season could be over.....
The pressure on McAdoo and the offense will be great, because I don't think this DL will be as good as last year, and it will give up points.....if this teams trails like last year, will the Giants resort to the long ball game like last year? And with this OL, can they do that?
No one can predict how this OL will pan out.....we saw how this offense sputtered in preseason last season, and kind of looked the other way.....
This preseason will be very important for this offense....would not be surprised to see the starters playing a lot in the first half, to try and get something going....
The OL will be the key to the Giant's season.....If it gels, with a weak NFC East, we have a shot at the division....if it doesn't, another season where this team does not make the playoffs......
Beatty is a huge concern
OLT has to protect Eli's blind side.
I am comfortable with either Mosley or Jerry replacing Snee
I am not comfortable with any of the likely subs for Beatty currently on the team. Brown and Brewer are just scary bad.
One possibility that I hope pre season explores would be Jerry at ORT and Pugh at OLT. Jerry is a good pass blocker or at least was and I think Pugh has the feet to play OLT. But that would mean a complete OL reshuffling which does not bode well for a good start to the season.
Jerry is a guy who has started 45 of 57 games. His play was never considered poor, but just not dominant. Right now he is a backup
Brown played last year as his 1st full time opportunity
Richburg was drafted high to play either G or C
Mosely has shown ability to play.
In a salary cap league with restricted number of roster spots, exactly what kind of quality depth are you looking to find that fits in a cap.
Are they devoid of top 5 talent at OL positions, yes - but you do not need that to succeed in the league.
So many want to look at SF OL and how great it is. GO look at their numbers of many passes they attempt vs sack and pressures given up - they are awful. They give up a huge amount of pressure that their QB hides
The other key issue IMO is whether Snee makes the final roster and, if so, whether as a starter or as a sub. What bothers me about Snee is that he is preventing the Giants from playing Schwartz from playing his natural position, which is RG (or RT). IIRC Schwartz has only played on the RIGHT side (RG AND RT) in college and in the pros. I think Snee has been a TERRIFIC player for the Giants but he's probably in his last year and his playing skills and body have considerably diminished. IMO the Giants should shift Schwartz to his natural position, which is RG and consider Snee to be a sub. That would leave LG open. Jerry has only played RG and, so, he would have to learn how to play LG but I'd rather have him learn LG play than move Schwartz to LG. Mosley, Brewer and Richburg would also be candidates to play LG. Of the latter three, Brewer would seem to be on the bubble because he did not play well at LG last year
Eric Herman is coming off surgery and, thus, who knows. Rogers Gaines, Jamaal Johnson-Webb and Troy Kropog, all OTs, seem to be camp fodder at this time. IMO the only other OT who MIGHT have a chance to make the final roster is Demarcus Love, based on his measureables.
So, Eric, I agree with your list of OL who make the final roster, adding only Love to the list because he has a slight chance.
It's reasonable to expect that somebody out of Snee, Richburg, Jerry, Mosley, or Brewer will be able to provide at-least-decent play at the other Guard position.
Which leaves Beatty & Brown at left tackle as the likely problem. This can be managed. We already know that the new OC will be doing more quick passing, and weakness at 1 OT spot can be dealt with, if the team is strong at the other OT spot and has some RBs and TEs with blocking ability.
I agree with Eric, Beatty is the key, plus in Brown they have a viable back up. This line is in much better shape this year than last.
Walton - dismissing him as a injured player is ignoring the first years of his career. He was a solid player who had an ankle injury that developed complications. By all reports he is ready to go - so how does that make him an injured player?
And yeah his backup is a rookie a 2nd rounder. 2nd rounders often start and even thrive in this league.
RE: no backups - Mosley, Jerry, Brown - the OLine is way better than they were last year, when we were starting guys who would not make a lot of nfl rosters.
And, I don't know how you can predict how the DL will play, particularly a decline in performance.
And, they drafted a RT last year who played well, improved as the year went on and worked hi ass off during the off season.
What is so odd about the Giants expecting a rookie to take a year on the bench before he's ready to start? That's how they've generally operated for at least a decade.
Richburg was picked to be depth and competition in 2014, and a starter for 2015-2017. He'll take snaps at G in camp because it makes the gameday-active roster math easier if your backup C can also be a backup G.
Or, again, they're thinking about more than just 2014. If you assume that the team isn't going to count on a rookie to deliver much in his first season, and that the draft is mostly about years 2-4 of the guys' rookie contracts, C is just as big a need as TE is. And, it's a higher-paid position, so if you're going to have to hit the FA market in 2015 to fill one of those needs, you'd rather it be TE.
(See below*) (Lt) - Schwartz (LG) - Walton (C) - Richburg** (RG) - Pugh (RT)
*So as I see it you can play either Beatty / Jerry / Brown at LT - hopefully Beatty but he probably starts the season as a PUP - if not Beatty hopefully Jerry - and then Brown would be the third option - hopefully Brown's over the yips and is in a better environment at Giants Stadium - I think these are three are each very viable options
**Snee and Beatty will more than likely PUP and Richburg will start at RG to open the season if Walton is healthy - I think that both Walton and Jerry are going to be big additions to the Oline personnel in addition to Richburg and Schwartz
Forget about Brewer and Mosley
Having read the above, and believing most of it, I can't see that Eli is in much less peril than last season.
His best hope is that McAdoo's system won't require as much time to get a pass away as Gilbride's system did.
Let's hope the run game is better.
Maybe Reese should have "retired" too.
Eric Ebron in first round and and Austin Seferian-Jenkins in second round.
Coughlin and Reese both said there were only a few TEs they liked in this draft. The Giants said only 14 were drafted (NFL.com tracker says only 10 were drafted).
So maybe they wanted Seferian-Jenkins more than Richburg, but they obviously didn't want someone else before him.
Link - ( New Window )
I agree with those that think that Walton was signed to start. He is not being paid like a back-up. The interesting move was drafting Richburg.
IMO, he was just too good to pass on. The Giants wanted an OL high in the draft and there was no G or T they liked there. Richburg may play Guard this season, but Walton looks like he can only play C.
I agree that LT is the most important question and Beatty is the key. We may need Brown to step up while Beatty heals.
As for RG - Snee is unlikely to play a majority of snaps there, as he is clearly breaking down (if not collapsing)
Richburg, Mosley and Jerry are the other possibilities.
I would say I'm more concerned then optimistic about the OL, but at least we have guys who have started in the NFL competing to play, as opposed to just a bunch of young guys we hope can play.
[quote] Brewer had an awful 2013, but am I incorrect in recalling that he played well whenever he was at RG?
[quote]
Yes, you are incorrect.
Brewer is, at best, a backup to a backup on one of the weaker O-lines in the NFL. If he makes the 2014 roster, it is an indication that Giants still have some major issues...
I'll panic if/when last years revolving-door OL returns. I'm betting it won't.
Be nice to get lucky like that again, but that doesn't constitute a plan to rely upon...
I think we might see more screen passes and draw plays to keep the defense
honest. Maybe by some miracle we can find a tight end that's a good blocker.