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JPP + the DEs

aquidneck : 7/13/2014 7:30 am
Roster analysis section says JPP still may need shoulder surgery before season??? This can't be right, can it?

Without looking, can anyone name a DE on the roster other than JPP, Ayers, Kiwi and Moore? This unit looks woefully thin and suspect to me. A decade ago a thin DE unit (along with a bad snap on a FG attempt) cost us a playoff game against the 49ers.

I'm concerned. One injury on this unit and we're picking guys up off the street. Even if all four stay healthy we need improvement from Moore, a rebound from JPP and career average years from Kiwi and Ayers in order to field a competitive group.

Tried to say some of this on the pinned DL thread, but no one seemed to share or respond to my DE concerns.

But I'm still concerned, and am putting it out there.
I don't know anybody but those four names  
Jimmy Googs : 7/13/2014 8:25 am : link
either, but that is the current state of this team. There was very little at Def End to go pursue in both free agency and the draft this off-season.

The Giants are only going to keep those 4 anyway because Jenkins can play Def End if needed.
Yeah, its a bit worrisome  
Curtis in VA : 7/13/2014 8:26 am : link
The days of Strahan/Osi/Tuck are long gone. We have one guy whose proven and hes part of the walking wounded, with his back (dont know anything about his shoulder).

Kiwi and Ayers are both underachievers and Moore is an unknown. Wondering where the pressures coming from and who's going to get in the face of Romo and RG3.
I wouldn't call it thin  
BillT : 7/13/2014 8:42 am : link
4 DEs that can play is enough and as many as they will keep on the roster. Now, if someone gets hurt there isn't a 5th DE that could step in but how many teams have a 5th DE that can be a competitive rotational player.

I think this group will surprise. The early reports on JPP are that he is healthy, very fit and has an attitude. I think Ayers is the dark horse and will pan out as a very solid player and the #2 DE. Moore can be effective as a rotational pass rusher and Kiwi is plenty good enough for the #3/4 role.
The idea expressed  
RetroJint : 7/13/2014 8:50 am : link
by management & the coaches is that tighter coverage will give the quarterback less time to throw, which will allow the pash rush to get home more frequently. That's the theory. Kiwanuka & Ayers are similar in that they were both miscast as pass rushers coming out of college. Not sure that it is fair calling them underachievers. They both have had starting roles on some good teams. To date Moore's career has tracked like Osi's. Will he continue? Hard to bank on that but they are similar players. A return to healthy, motivated form by Pierre Paul would be the key ingredient for the PR because the Giants could counter off the strategies teams used in blocking him.
I miss the days when our 5th DE  
beatrixkiddo : 7/13/2014 9:01 am : link
used to be Tollefson, that guy was the best 5th DE in the game. Crazy how you can be so stacked at a position and now have it so thin in just a few short years. I think they will draft a DE high again next year.
beat, I agree in theory about next year  
Bill in UT : 7/13/2014 9:27 am : link
but it will probably come down to who's available when we pick and if there's higher value or need at another position. If, God forbid, Eli has a down year, we may very well be looking at a QB in Rd. 1. But I don't see any way that we pay for a quality DE as a FA, unless maybe we go QB and have Eli's cap space. But that's not something I want think about.
I can't remember a season,  
Doomster : 7/13/2014 11:02 am : link
where there were so many question marks at DL, OL, RB, LB, WR, and QB, all in one season.....

Let's face it, with all the uncertainty, this team can easily swing one way or the other.....we can only hope for the best....but it's really hard to hang your hat on this team making the playoffs......I don't think they win the division, and second place in this division will not make the playoffs....
The paradigm has shifted to the backend  
JonC : 7/13/2014 11:06 am : link
which I'd pointed out prior to last season. They went full force spending on CBs this offseason to reinforce the shift. Now, the DE ranks are among the weaker on the team. Look for one and possibly two early next Spring in the draft regardless of the shift, as this unit has danger written over it.
There really were no early draft options at DE  
JonC : 7/13/2014 11:13 am : link
and they're too expensive via UFA, so we hope for the veterans to have solid years and for Moore to step us his game considerably.
there are DE unknowns and some DTs in a pinch  
alligatorpie : 7/13/2014 11:31 am : link
72 Kendrick Adams DE 6-5 250 26 2013/UFA 2016
69 Kerry Wynn DE 6-5 266 23 2014/UDFA 2017
79 Emmanuel Dieke DE 6-6 257 24 2014/UDFA 2017
66 Jordan Stanton DE 6-4 280 23 2014/UDFA 2017
99 Cullen Jenkins DT 6-2 305 33 2013/UFA 2016
95 Johnathan Hankins DT 6-2 320 22 2013/2 2017
looks like 280 is a typo on stanton  
alligatorpie : 7/13/2014 11:36 am : link
there are 2 players with that name,a DE and a DT...?

the DE is 250
ok, JMU grad  
alligatorpie : 7/13/2014 11:40 am : link
.
it is hard to tell in 2 minutes  
alligatorpie : 7/13/2014 11:43 am : link
weather these UDFA DEs are the type who need to 'build up' to 260+ (top heavy) or have legit size.

with the advent of a better secondary, I was pulling for a larger DT/DE tweener or a former 3/4 DE such as brent urban.

time will tell.

ben gardner 7th round went to the cowboys, is another.
JPP is NOT PROVEN  
djstat : 7/13/2014 1:33 pm : link
One strong season with Tuck and Osi still very productive does not make JPP proven...
Don't mean to annoy anyone by visiting this old topic,  
Reese's Pieces : 7/14/2014 10:42 am : link
but I'm not sure that they should have let Tuck go. At age 31, he sure wasn't the Tuck of 26, but I don't think he was done. He did have 11 sacks, even if six were against the Redskins. He was a captain with two rings who could have rotated in and out and helped the younger players.

But, mostly, we didn't have anyone better to replace him.

imo  
aquidneck : 7/14/2014 11:03 am : link
It was either Tuck or Ayers. Ayers is younger and cheaper, so I can understand the Giants' choice.

As someone said above, the young guys are all unknowns. Can't expect anything from them. Maybe one if these guys turns out to be an actual NFL player. Who knows?

Absent that we're paper thin. Hard to imagine all four guys we're counting on lasting the season without missing games due to injury.
I think we're exaggerating the past depth at DE a bit.  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/14/2014 1:20 pm : link
Here are a few of the has-beens and never-weres that have filled roster spots in the Coughlin era:
Lance Legree
Regan Upshaw
Chuck Wiley
Adrian Awasom
Russell Davis
Jerome McDougle
Renaldo Wynn
Justin Trattou
Adewale Ojomo

The 2007 and 2011 Giants didn't win because they were deep at DE. They won because their difference-makers (at DE and elsewhere) got healthy and hot at the right time.
pass rush  
msh : 7/14/2014 1:59 pm : link
is overrated in the current league its about pressure and forcing 3 and outs or turnovers now,this is a passing league and many teams altered their game for quick throws, which negated the giants pass rush anyway

with jenkins and hankins pushing the middle of the line into the pocket and pressure on the outside from jpp/moore and kiwi
this defence is looking to force teams to throw short or control the run more

i personally expect a big year from moore,i dont think they would have let tuck leave if they didnt feel moore was ready and the same goes for hankins and linval at the DT spot

the improved secondry will also give them the flexibility to bring rolle or drc on corner blitz's more often as well,if the coverage is better the pass rush will have more time to get home.i do agree that a 100% jpp will make them a step above like it did in 2011 and i hope that is the case

the defence doesnt worry me at the moment its the OL and pass protection that is thier greatest question/concern and if reese has got those guys right this year another 2011 type superbowl run isnt out of the question at all
Kennard played a yr in college..  
BCD : 7/14/2014 3:25 pm : link
and looked dam good....check out his highlights and utube
RE: I miss the days when our 5th DE  
Big_Score : 7/15/2014 9:45 pm : link
In comment 11765817 beatrixkiddo said:
Quote:
used to be Tollefson, that guy was the best 5th DE in the game. Crazy how you can be so stacked at a position and now have it so thin in just a few short years. I think they will draft a DE high again next year.


Amen. Tollefson was underappreciated, and solid as a rock.
The fourth DE won't see many snaps until somebody gets hurt.  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/16/2014 5:36 am : link
If one of the top four is dinged, dressing just three is an option, since Jenkins, Kennard and others provide in-game insurance across positions.i

The fifth DE - in the unlikely event that the team carries five - won't even dress unless he's a major contributor on specials. Much more likely, the fifth DE will be on the practice squad, for development and injury insurance. Could be a current Giant like Wynn or Dieke, or a late cut from elsewhere. By definition, the practice squad can't hold players who are proven, or who would make an NFL roster, so there's no point bemoaning the fact that the current candidates for that spot are nobodies.

Kiwanuka, Ayers and Pierre-Paul are former first-round picks whose careers, while somewhat disappointing in different ways, suggest a solid rotation as long as Pierre-Paul is closer to 2011 than 2013. Moore offers some additional upside. Although DE might not be a strength, I doubt it will be the position that holds this team back.
From 2012:  
Reese's Pieces : 7/20/2014 11:34 pm : link
Seeing the way the Giants beat up Tom Brady has every team robotically chanting, "You can't have too many pass rushers."

"I learned that from (former Giants general manager) Ernie Accorsi," Giants GM Jerry Reese said. "If you can pass-rush, it solves a lot of other problems for you. If you rush the passer, your secondary doesn't have to be as strong because the pass rush can cover up. If you can rush the passer, you have a chance."

So what about this year Jerry? Change your mind?
We have learned that  
mrvax : 7/21/2014 12:11 am : link
a great pass rush can hide weakness in the secondary. Question is can a great secondary hide a pass rush weakness?

If JPP is back and Kiwi plays decent, we should ve very good on defense.

Anyone know if DRC is a capable blitzer? If so, that would be great.
mrvax: Rodgers-Cromartie has never been used that way.  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/21/2014 7:52 am : link
Not in Arizona, not in Philly, not in Denver, not even at Tennessee State. He's a pure cover corner.

I think we'll see Thurmond blitz from the slot more than either of the outside guys.
It does look like they are changing philosophy a bit  
WideRight : 7/21/2014 11:03 am : link
Turnovers are more important than pass rush, and our best years included lots Osi trifectas - sack, fumble, recovery. Very few guys can do that, and I think they are trying to get the TOs more in the secondary now.
I'm not saying anything  
Metnut : 7/21/2014 11:16 am : link
that you all don't already know, but to be a surprise contender this year, JPP is going to have to be healthy and play a pro-bowl level. If he gets hurt or is ineffective, our defense is going to be awfully mild up front.
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