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Big Blue Breakdown: Can Chris Snee Be Counted On?

Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/14/2014 9:14 am
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Big Blue Breakdown: Can Chris Snee Be Counted On? - ( New Window )
This can be answered quite easily.  
kmed : 7/14/2014 9:16 am : link
No.

Based on his recent past and his injury history, you cannot and should not count on Chris Snee. Anything you get from him is gravy. Thanks.
He's  
AcidTest : 7/14/2014 9:20 am : link
done. Great Giant, but it's over. Like a lot of players, he wants to make sure by seeing if he can do it one more time. That's understandable, but I'm concerned that even if he makes it through camp, that he will end up taking the spot of someone else. This is his last year.

He should retire. He's made his money, and won two SBs. He needs to think about his health and his family.
If I had to bet I'd say no  
bc4life : 7/14/2014 9:27 am : link
Cannot blame him for wanting to give it a go and not wanting the injuries to chase him out of the league. And, he has given his all in trying to make that happen.

But, like one of the writers stated - he is only a week away from training camp, needing to gain another 10 for the season (not to mention the work it will take to keep it on). We are not sure his base will not flare up again and before the hitting even starts his elbow is acting up again. What happens when the real hand fighting starts for real (i.e., rip move)?

Rooting for him but there is real reason to doubt he'll be successful.
The Giants really have had shitty luck  
Enoch : 7/14/2014 9:29 am : link
with regard to OL getting injured and ageing fast. League-wide, it's not too atypical for a good OL to continue to be an effective starter well into his 30s. But every single member of the Giants' great 2008 OL declined to the point of ineffectiveness when he was about 31. (And the big FA splash they made since then-- David Baas-- didn't even last that long.)

The front office gets a lot of criticism from guys like us for neglecting the OL in the draft (and for not getting much out of the guys they took, like Brewer, McCants, etc.). But was it really unreasonable for them to expect that at least a couple of Snee/Diehl/Seubert/O'Hara/etc. would still be useful guys when they were 33?

Enoch, Excellent Point  
GiantBlue : 7/14/2014 9:36 am : link
Good post and a good point.
RE: The Giants really have had shitty luck  
gmen9892 : 7/14/2014 9:41 am : link
In comment 11766578 Enoch said:
Quote:
with regard to OL getting injured and ageing fast. League-wide, it's not too atypical for a good OL to continue to be an effective starter well into his 30s. But every single member of the Giants' great 2008 OL declined to the point of ineffectiveness when he was about 31. (And the big FA splash they made since then-- David Baas-- didn't even last that long.)

The front office gets a lot of criticism from guys like us for neglecting the OL in the draft (and for not getting much out of the guys they took, like Brewer, McCants, etc.). But was it really unreasonable for them to expect that at least a couple of Snee/Diehl/Seubert/O'Hara/etc. would still be useful guys when they were 33?


Great point and one that is not made here too often.
I'm not trying to suggest that Snee  
kmed : 7/14/2014 9:49 am : link
can't contribute and be an effective player, but counting on it is a really, really bad idea. Two completely different questions.
I think Conor identifies the key issue.  
Racer : 7/14/2014 9:50 am : link
The elbow is keeping him out of the weight room, which is where he built the kind of game that made him a pro-bowler. Seubert was in the same situation his last year, and it was disheartening to watch.
Chris, like David Diehl, one of my favourite all time giants  
MikeN in Ottawa : 7/14/2014 9:54 am : link
for a lot of the reasons pointed out in the article, starter from day one, great in the community, no off field trouble...a real solid citizen and, at one time, maybe the best guard in the NFL.

But his body is worn down and I just can't see him making it through half a season let alone a full season. In fact, he may not make it to the start of the season at all based on his OTA situation.

Sad when great players succumb to father time. Frankly, I had expected the Giants to part ways with Chris in March and I am surprised he is still here.
How is this even a question?  
chris r : 7/14/2014 9:57 am : link
the dude has had two hip surgeries, is over 30 and hasn't been good for a few years.
yeah  
dorgan : 7/14/2014 10:02 am : link
you're right. No one has ever come back from multiple injuries and played well after 30.

I expect Snee to retire  
DavidinBMNY : 7/14/2014 10:02 am : link
RG is between Mosley and Jerry I believe at least as far as starter goes.

RE: yeah  
chris r : 7/14/2014 10:05 am : link
In comment 11766635 dorgan said:
Quote:
you're right. No one has ever come back from multiple injuries and played well after 30.


There's a difference between something that is possible and something that can be counted on.

RE: I expect Snee to retire  
Enoch : 7/14/2014 10:10 am : link
In comment 11766636 DavidinBMNY said:
Quote:
RG is between Mosley and Jerry I believe at least as far as starter goes.


Why on Earth would Snee retire when he could earn an extra $2MM on the roster or on IR? The window for retirement was in February, before he accepted that pay cut.
I agree with the writer's conclusory statement  
ChicagoMarty : 7/14/2014 10:10 am : link
that he is much more worried about OLT and Beatty

The Jints are prepared seemingly for a Snee absence but just how prepared are they should Beatty not be able to go?
Enoch  
SLIM : 7/14/2014 10:34 am : link
Good post but outside of Seubert, nobody else's play fell off a cliff. O'Hara seemed to be hurt the 2 previous year's before they had to cut him. Diehl was servicable at tackle in 2011 but was actually playing poorly at guard before that. McKenzie probably fell off the cliff (that makes 2) come to think of it. Baas was constantly injured and Snee has been regressing since at least 2012 and arguably more.

In my mind, the error with Snee was the most egregious error. They had locked in big money with him and he probably should have been replaced earlier if it wasn't for the huge signing bonus's owed.
Marty...I think Brown can be at least as good as Beatty...this is  
MikeN in Ottawa : 7/14/2014 10:53 am : link
one of the biggest mistakes in the JR era...signing Beatty to that long term deal. He was never that good a player and when we won SB 46 it was with Diehl at LT, not Beatty.

Beatty may well be JR's albatross...terrible signing, terrible contract. Personally, I've never liked him as a player...mostly because I think he does not work hard enough to improve.

I'd rather see Brown out there or move Justin to LT.
I just hope they make a decision about Snee quickly.  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/14/2014 10:54 am : link
[Sorry - I posted this as a new thread, before seeing this one.]

To me, the issue is less whether Snee bounces back than how much practice time the staff invests in finding out, and the potential disruption caused by holding out hope for too long.

The roster seems to boast sufficient talent for Pat Flaherty to assemble a pretty good line, assuming Will Beatty can just revert to adequacy. My fingers are crossed for resurgent seasons from Beatty and J.D. Walton, continued improvement by Geoff Schwartz and Justin Pugh, and the rapid emergence of Weston Richburg.

At four positions, there's little doubt about the presumptive starter entering camp:
LT: Beatty
LG: Schwartz
OC: Walton
RT: Pugh
Although there are plenty of questions about Beatty and Walton, it seems clear that they are the best immediate options at their respective positions, unless the lingering effects of past fractures are worse than expected.

Then there's right guard. I don't mind Chris Snee's presence at the top of the depth chart. Considering the dead-money load from his prior contracts, and his acceptance of a massive salary reduction, it makes sense to see whether he can still play; and as long as he's a Giant, listing him with the first string in July is a courtesy he has earned. My worry is how the Giants will allocate scarce practice time once camp begins. How many snaps will it take to determine whether Chris Snee remains a viable NFL starter? If he's not, or if he breaks down in August, how many snaps will remain to fill the resulting void?

Even if Snee doesn't take a single rep with the "ones", his shadow may influence the shape of the starting line. Without Snee in the picture, I suspect Geoff Schwartz would have been penciled in at his natural position on the right side, and the battle would be at left guard, with either Brandon Mosley or Richburg the likely winner, and James Brewer, John Jerry and others in the mix. Mosley and Richburg both appear at least as well suited to the left side as the right (obviously, that's a guess based on measurables, since neither has played much guard); more importantly, Schwartz has no track record on the left side at all. If Snee can't cut it, the staff may face an awkward choice in August - or even later: either disrupt two spots by moving Schwartz, or play their best interior lineman out of position for the sake of continuity. Jerry might be an adequate fill-in at RG, but his contract doesn't suggest he's much more than that.

Here's hoping the Snee situation resolves itself quickly. I'm rooting hard for him and feel he deserves every chance to rebound. Still, given the importance of cohesion on the offensive line, I suspect the 2014 Giants might be better off without the imminent threat he represents of another reshuffle at guard. Of course, any player can get hurt. With Snee, the risk of a new injury is compounded by multiple pre-existing - and apparently chronic - conditions. I salute his determination to play, and his reluctance to throw in the towel. I just hope his father-in-law knows when to throw it in on his behalf, and the team's.
I don't think Ed Valentine  
bob in tx : 7/14/2014 11:00 am : link
has ever seen John Jerry play.
Big Blue Breakdown is an appropriate title  
Jimmy Googs : 7/14/2014 11:03 am : link
for this thread.

Clearly Snee cannot be counted on, and Reese already knows that based on his latest comments in late June that the "jury was still out on whether he could contribute this year".

We all hope he can be ready but not being able to even get thru OTAs is really all you need to know to plan without him.
No  
Blue Blood : 7/14/2014 11:04 am : link
you cant.. I hoping Mosley can win a starting job.
Or Weston Richburg  
Blue Blood : 7/14/2014 11:04 am : link
that would be optimal.
Mike N  
ChicagoMarty : 7/14/2014 11:19 am : link
There is a reason Brown was benched by NO last year

He stinks

Worse than Brewer

Our best prospective OL may in fact require a complete reshuffle:

ORT - Jerry
ORG - Mosley
C - Walton
OLG - Schwartz
OLT - Pugh

How soon can that OL come together?
I don't buy the whole ''30's isn't old for an O-lineman'' argument  
SB : 7/14/2014 11:29 am : link
...and I didn't buy it in the late 2000s when people were throwing it around here during draft time.

If you look at current starters on other teams, yes, you'll find o-lineman in their 30s. But that's a skewed sample, because it ignores all the former starters that are now out of the league because they broke down.

Anyway, apart from QB, relying on any player being productive well into their 30s is a recipe for disaster, IMO.
ChicagoMarty: With the premise of Mosley and Schartz at G...  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/14/2014 11:32 am : link
...wouldn't you want Schwartz on the right side? As for tackle, I could see Pugh moving in 2015, but not this year - except as an absolute last resort.

I share your concern about the time required for an offensive line to coalesce. McAdoo probably shares it too, from years of watching erratic line play in Green Bay.
Big Blue Breakdown  
aquidneck : 7/14/2014 11:47 am : link
Apt title for a thread about Chris Snee.

(And I hope I'm wrong.)
Enoch  
DavidinBMNY : 7/14/2014 11:52 am : link
So Mentally he can move on to the next phase of his career/life. I'm sure the finances can be worked out. Retiring let's you do it on your terms. Snee has earned that right.
Enoch  
Matt M. : 7/14/2014 11:59 am : link
I also wouldn't be surprised to see him retire. I wouldn't say I expect it, but I think there is an excellent chance. Back in February, there were too many unknowns about his past and current surgeries and the state of the OL for him to make a decision. I think after rehabbing and working to try to be ready for the start of a season, he just may come to the realization that he can't do it anymore.

However, the little kid in me still wants to hope that he miraculously gets healthy enough to be close enough to his All Pro self to stick for another year. If he could even be 85%, he would still be damn good player. I don't think he has gotten nearly enough credit for how dominant he was almost from day 1. He may have been the father of Coughlin's grandchild (not yet son-in-law when he was drafted. But, he was 100% worthy of the selection.
IF this is realistically his last year  
fkap : 7/14/2014 12:25 pm : link
IMO, he would have to be on a higher level than the other competition. If he's at the same level, why keep him and not get started on the players of the future?

For camp, I'd pencil him in as the backup and give the reps to the potential heirs. If he holds up and outperforms them, he can always move up the food chain. I love what he's done for us, but at this point he should earn his way back into the top spot. Worst is to give him starter reps from the beginning and then have him wash out, leaving someone else (along with the line cohesiveness) to play catchup.
unfortunately No  
micky : 7/14/2014 12:27 pm : link
if they're putting thier eggs in his basket and relying on him..then they're in trouble. It's a shame though..he was a good G
We'll find out during camp  
ZogZerg : 7/14/2014 12:30 pm : link
If he is a part timer during training camp like he was at OTAs, then it doesn't look good for him to be counted on.

I'm hopeful he can compete during camp for his job.
I'd plan for "no" and hope for the best  
JonC : 7/14/2014 12:36 pm : link
I echo Marty in that the biggest concern is left tackle. They've got a few bodies that should be ready to step in for Snee, albeit green.

I'm also interested to hear how healthy Walton is, he's another injury related question mark.

I've been hoping the erratic OL play wouldn't follow the new OC here and manifest itself. That's one group that's struggled mightily at times with cohesion.
Counted on?  
NYGmen58 : 7/14/2014 12:40 pm : link
No. The Giants are hopeful he can return to form and at least be healthy enough to compete for the starting job if not stay on as a backup, but they are certainly not "counting on" him.

Snee is a low-risk high reward guy at this point. If he is HEALTHY, he should and will start at right guard, even if he wasn't the player he was years ago.

A healthy Snee is still a better option than the alternative, but we have other options if he cannot go.

Brown  
Jimmy Googs : 7/14/2014 12:44 pm : link
In comment 11766756 ChicagoMarty said:
Quote:
There is a reason Brown was benched by NO last year

He stinks

Worse than Brewer


that is almost unfathomable...

no. that would be folly.  
Victor in CT : 7/14/2014 12:54 pm : link
Any kind of production would have to be considered a bonus
RE: RE: I expect Snee to retire  
BillT : 7/14/2014 12:59 pm : link
In comment 11766645 Enoch said:
Quote:
Why on Earth would Snee retire when he could earn an extra $2MM on the roster or on IR? The window for retirement was in February, before he accepted that pay cut.


I think the possible sceniero is that if Smee has spent the last six weeks trying to get ready but couldn't because of his elbow then when training camp opens it's obvious to him and the team he isn't ready and retirement becomes the option. We'll see.
Blogger  
ChicagoMarty : 7/14/2014 1:18 pm : link
Yes

That is in fact what I meant to say which further supports my conclusion that the OL will undergo a complete transformation at every position
Not to be a heartless prick  
mrvax : 7/14/2014 1:26 pm : link
but I've said since the end of the season, Diehl and Snee should be immediately released.

You cannot tell me that you can't get a NFL decent F/A guard that will be an upgrade over the broken down Snee.

I have no idea why the Giants are letting him practice at right guard in any capacity taking precious practice time away from his replacement. These 5 guys need all the time they can get together. Stop the madness and let Chris Snee retire!
My biggest concern is at LOT  
mrvax : 7/14/2014 1:44 pm : link
I'm worried that the Giants could place Beatty as the starter even if he's at 90% recovered. I think this would be a disaster for him and the team.

Pat Flaherty has to immediately find out who can play LT best besides Beatty. I have a feeling it would be Pugh who played LT his entire college career. In any case, the team needs to be prepared for a less than 100% Beatty and KNOW right away who his backup is.

If Pugh is the man for LT, then he has to decide out of the remaining guys who is best RT. This has to be done quickly so that the starting tackles have maximum time to get ready.

From watching the best and worst of Beatty and how well Pugh played last year, I believe it's only fair to Justin to be given the shot at the money-making LT position. Even if Beatty is 100%, Pugh deserves that chance, IMO.
...  
SanFranGiantsFan : 7/14/2014 2:06 pm : link
To answer the thread question, no.
Mrvax - I thought Flaherty was pretty adamant  
Jimmy Googs : 7/14/2014 2:28 pm : link
in his comments after OTAs that Pugh was not heading to LT anytime soon, no matter what happens to Beatty.

or something like that...

Jimmy-  
mrvax : 7/14/2014 2:44 pm : link
I didn't remember that. I'd think I'd want my best tackle over there if the guy can play the position well.
No  
OC : 7/14/2014 3:55 pm : link
The guy's been an excellent player in his time, but with the elbow flair up I think his time has come to hang up the cleats
RE: Jimmy-  
Jimmy Googs : 7/14/2014 3:59 pm : link
In comment 11767063 mrvax said:
Quote:
I didn't remember that. I'd think I'd want my best tackle over there if the guy can play the position well.


Here is some color on Flaherty's comments. Didn't say "never" but sounds pretty unlikely...

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2014/06/giants_ol_coach_why_experiment_with_justin_pugh.html


Yeah Jimmy  
mrvax : 7/14/2014 9:01 pm : link
I just disagree with the coach on this one. I mean, if Beatty is 100%, sure, it's not the time to play games. If Beatty isn't ready, what guy on our roster would you think could win the job?
RE: The Giants really have had shitty luck  
MookGiants : 7/14/2014 9:18 pm : link
In comment 11766578 Enoch said:
Quote:
with regard to OL getting injured and ageing fast. League-wide, it's not too atypical for a good OL to continue to be an effective starter well into his 30s. But every single member of the Giants' great 2008 OL declined to the point of ineffectiveness when he was about 31. (And the big FA splash they made since then-- David Baas-- didn't even last that long.)

The front office gets a lot of criticism from guys like us for neglecting the OL in the draft (and for not getting much out of the guys they took, like Brewer, McCants, etc.). But was it really unreasonable for them to expect that at least a couple of Snee/Diehl/Seubert/O'Hara/etc. would still be useful guys when they were 33?


The problem is they didnt adjust quickly when these guys fell off of a cliff. They kept plugging them in there and hoping for the best instead of upgrading the positions. Since Snee was drafted, the Giants haven't produced one good interior lineman through the draft. That's absurd.
Is tackle not an interior lineman?  
Jupiter : 7/14/2014 10:17 pm : link
I thought Pugh qualified.

It is difficult to believe that Giants are unique in having rapidly aging O-linemen. Maybe it's the water.
RE: Chris, like David Diehl, one of my favourite all time giants  
David in LA : 7/15/2014 2:16 am : link
In comment 11766624 MikeN in Ottawa said:
Quote:
for a lot of the reasons pointed out in the article, starter from day one, great in the community, no off field trouble...a real solid citizen and, at one time, maybe the best guard in the NFL.

But his body is worn down and I just can't see him making it through half a season let alone a full season. In fact, he may not make it to the start of the season at all based on his OTA situation.

Sad when great players succumb to father time. Frankly, I had expected the Giants to part ways with Chris in March and I am surprised he is still here.


One minor correction. Diehl had a DUI, but he keeps getting this pass that he's a upstanding citizen. Nor was he ever considered even top 10 at his position. Snee has had a much better career, but Diehl probably gets the same adulation and props for some reason.
RE: Is tackle not an interior lineman?  
MookGiants : 7/15/2014 2:18 am : link
In comment 11767575 Jupiter said:
Quote:
I thought Pugh qualified.

It is difficult to believe that Giants are unique in having rapidly aging O-linemen. Maybe it's the water.


Interior meaning guard and center.
I was against Snee coming back  
jcn56 : 7/15/2014 7:42 am : link
Without sounding unappreciative for his many good years here, it's pretty evident that the guy is either a shell of his former self or completely done, and we could've done better with the roster spot even for a contributor/non-starter type player.

I don't agree with those who think it's about the payday. Maybe I'm jaded, but I find it hard to believe that the Giants couldn't find some way to throw him a couple of million bucks outside of football if they just wanted to reward his loyalty. I think given his relation to Coughlin, they could have found a way to accomplish that without occupying a roster spot and taking up cap space.

I think they really wanted Snee back, and Snee wanted to give it one last go. I'm sorry to say I don't think it'll work, and I hope I'm wrong.
RE: Yeah Jimmy  
Jimmy Googs : 7/15/2014 9:17 am : link
In comment 11767518 mrvax said:
Quote:
I just disagree with the coach on this one. I mean, if Beatty is 100%, sure, it's not the time to play games. If Beatty isn't ready, what guy on our roster would you think could win the job?


Its Charles Brown's job if Beatty isn't ready at LT. Quite frankly, Giants are a disaster at tackle if anything happens to Pugh as well. And i realize most teams don't just have good tackles sitting on the bench, but ours don't have a prayer to hold up.
Snee will get the opportunity  
JPinstripes : 7/15/2014 9:58 am : link
in camp to prove he is healthy. I am rooting for him big time, but I don't think he will make it back.
RE: RE: Yeah Jimmy  
mrvax : 7/15/2014 12:39 pm : link
In comment 11767823 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:


Its Charles Brown's job if Beatty isn't ready at LT. Quite frankly, Giants are a disaster at tackle if anything happens to Pugh as well. And i realize most teams don't just have good tackles sitting on the bench, but ours don't have a prayer to hold up.


Wouldn't you rather see Pugh battle out the LT job with Brown and any other comers and then have a battle for right tackle? I want my best guy to protect Eli's blindside. Don't forget that Pugh was a LT his entire college career.
RE: Snee will get the opportunity  
mrvax : 7/15/2014 12:41 pm : link
In comment 11767881 JPinstripes said:
Quote:
in camp to prove he is healthy. I am rooting for him big time, but I don't think he will make it back.


Agreed. After several years of declining play and serious injuries, he isn't likely to go under the knife and miraculously dial back the hands of time.
Snee will get the opportunity....  
Doomster : 7/15/2014 3:20 pm : link
He might even get the starting job, because what is on the team better than him?

The big question is, how long before he is injured again? The front office can't seriously think he can last 16 games!

It's time to face facts, he is not the player he was, and he can't be counted on to last the season...
RE: The Giants really have had shitty luck  
Big_Blue_Wrecking_Crew : 7/15/2014 4:30 pm : link
In comment 11766578 Enoch said:
Quote:
with regard to OL getting injured and ageing fast. League-wide, it's not too atypical for a good OL to continue to be an effective starter well into his 30s. But every single member of the Giants' great 2008 OL declined to the point of ineffectiveness when he was about 31. (And the big FA splash they made since then-- David Baas-- didn't even last that long.)

The front office gets a lot of criticism from guys like us for neglecting the OL in the draft (and for not getting much out of the guys they took, like Brewer, McCants, etc.). But was it really unreasonable for them to expect that at least a couple of Snee/Diehl/Seubert/O'Hara/etc. would still be useful guys when they were 33?


Considering the injuries, yes I do think they are partially to blame.
RE: RE: RE: Yeah Jimmy  
Jimmy Googs : 7/15/2014 6:21 pm : link
In comment 11768113 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 11767823 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:




Its Charles Brown's job if Beatty isn't ready at LT. Quite frankly, Giants are a disaster at tackle if anything happens to Pugh as well. And i realize most teams don't just have good tackles sitting on the bench, but ours don't have a prayer to hold up.



Wouldn't you rather see Pugh battle out the LT job with Brown and any other comers and then have a battle for right tackle? I want my best guy to protect Eli's blindside. Don't forget that Pugh was a LT his entire college career.


Yeah, i don't know really Mrvax. There is something to be said about just letting Pugh continue his development at RT so there is no new disruption, and letting the guys that have played LT before in the pros compete for that job. Although I think that is just Beatty and Brown, but not certain if others had snaps there.

I just really hope Beatty is ready to go soon so this doesn't need to be figured out this season.
No  
RasputinPrime : 7/15/2014 6:57 pm : link
when you are done in football you are just done.

An all-time great Giant but he is likely only serviceable at this point.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Yeah Jimmy  
mrvax : 7/15/2014 9:59 pm : link
In comment 11768623 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:

Yeah, i don't know really Mrvax. There is something to be said about just letting Pugh continue his development at RT so there is no new disruption, and letting the guys that have played LT before in the pros compete for that job. Although I think that is just Beatty and Brown, but not certain if others had snaps there.

I just really hope Beatty is ready to go soon so this doesn't need to be figured out this season.


Well, in any case it will be fun for us fans to see just how well Beatty is and how the coaches decide on who plays where. Can hardly wait to start getting camp reports.
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