for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Giants 2014 Positional Breakdown: Safeties

Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/17/2014 9:08 am
FYI.
Giants 2014 Positional Breakdown: Safeties - ( New Window )
like wine  
area junc : 7/17/2014 9:17 am : link
i think understandably so it gets lost in how bad we were, how good antrel rolle was last year. he is a top 5 safety in this league

if u go back and study his big plays all of them came in huge spots. testament 2 his work ethic that at 31 he has worked himself into a big time player coming off his best season, aging like fine wine
I accidentally....  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/17/2014 9:20 am : link
messed up Connor's depth chart, but fixed. He has Berhe making the team.
Great  
AcidTest : 7/17/2014 9:29 am : link
group. The winnowing unfortunately will probably happen because of injury. If not, then somebody they want to keep but can't find room for, will develop a mysterious "injury" so they can be stashed on IR for the year.
Acid  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/17/2014 9:33 am : link
I wouldn't call it a "great" group. Losing Will Hill was a huge blow.

Stevie Brown, Quintin Demps, and Cooper Taylor are all still major question marks.
you think?  
jbeintherockies : 7/17/2014 9:48 am : link
Quote:
Cooper Taylor may be in warm water, but the odds of Jerry Reese cutting last year’s fifth-round pick are slim-to-none.

I hope that isn't true. If one of the other players is better, I would hope Reese would allow last year's 5th round pick to be released. If not, then I think there is a problem. Like Parcells has said, you must separate a player's playing ability from where he is drafted.
it seems like the 'up'  
alligatorpie : 7/17/2014 9:54 am : link
types (broadly) or more narrowly the 'box' types are in greater supply coming out of college as opposed to the 'deep' 'ball hawk' types.

which brings up the old idea that a safety is really a solidly built talented zone corner...and...the older idea of drafting and converting those for the deep safety roll.

which - one can see a significant difference between a 'project' that has little proven production in college but with size/speed

as opposed to a 'project' that has a ton of proven production in college, albeit at a slightly different position.

as a way of finding supply in the latter

putting that in context in the thread  
alligatorpie : 7/17/2014 9:57 am : link
demps and berhe maybe being up players, why have they filled the train in the taylor spot as opposed to looking for additional in the brown spot, where there is little supply on the team?

unless they see berhe or taylor as the deep type...
here is what taylor looked like draft year  
alligatorpie : 7/17/2014 10:17 am : link
(cbs quoting nfl.com gil brant)

''04/08/2013 - Cooper Taylor S (6-4??", 228 pounds) - Taylor ran 4.58 and 4.49, did 36??" in the vertical, 10-foot-7 in the broad jump, 4.29 in the short-shuttle, 6.96 in the three-cone and 23 reps on the bench press. The coaches worked Taylor out as a linebacker. His official position will be strong safety, but he's one of those guys who could possibly bulk up and play outside linebacker. Reminiscent of Kam Chancellor of the Seattle Seahawks. - Gil Brandt, NFL.com ''

berhes video looks like 'up' plays, plays in front of him and laying the wood...demps wants to play 'up'...roll plays great at 'up'....

not sure how  
bc4life : 7/17/2014 10:19 am : link
"being in the right place at the right time" is a cause for concern. He performed in the role they gave him.
weird but if you look at college tape  
alligatorpie : 7/17/2014 10:33 am : link
berhe looks more like an in the box type 'hitter' while taylor does the 'in the right place at the right time' INTs ala brown.

sometimes we overlook stuff due to 'big'

maybe we flip erics depth chart here
I don't get the reservations on Brown  
BillT : 7/17/2014 10:51 am : link
Recovery from injury aside, he did just what was asked of him and made teams pay dearly for doubting him. He's a starter on every other team in the NFCE though that may be faint praise. Eric's idea of Berhe to the PS is probably the most logical way to get 6 CBs on the roster. I think Taylor will get more playing time than most expect. It's a plenty talented group.
cam chancellor also with the 'right place at right time'  
alligatorpie : 7/17/2014 10:55 am : link
INTs.

I always give credit for INTs regardless of college vs nfl, or what people say about instincts.

the best way to prove it is INTs, fumbles recovered /caused on DL (assuming the tackles are also there), passes knocked down.

i do believe in instincts and field vision, as un-teachable intangibles. but give credit when due.
RE: Great  
Jimmy Googs : 7/17/2014 10:59 am : link
In comment 11770354 AcidTest said:
Quote:
group. The winnowing unfortunately will probably happen because of injury. If not, then somebody they want to keep but can't find room for, will develop a mysterious "injury" so they can be stashed on IR for the year.


Unfortunately this team doesn't need to come up with mysterious injuries during pre-season. They do fine getting consistently hurt each of the 4 games on their own...
I have my doubts about brown as a full time starter, BUT  
Aaron in MA : 7/17/2014 11:08 am : link
You can't teach ball skills. I have watched so many balls bounce off the hands of guys in the past, its so refreshing to have a DB who can go get it and then know what to do with it.

Stevie Brown is a very important player  
Jimmy Googs : 7/17/2014 11:08 am : link
for Giants this year.

I was a bit shocked to see in this write-up that Ryan Mundy has 77 tackles last season. Add in Hill's departure and now Brown has a lot of work to do versus just playing centerfield and waiting for an overthrow.

While I think Brown is decent enough, I am still puzzled on how his body of work entitled him to a $1.7M salary plus another $1M guaranteed bonus, after a major injury year?

regarding Brown...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/17/2014 11:12 am : link
some of his picks were lucky bounces. But he also made some superb plays on the ball.

I wouldn't say "Brown is always in the right place at the right time." In fact, the downside to him is the opposite of that. He often wasn't where he was supposed to be.

I don't see the Cam Chancellor comparison at all. Chancellor may be the hardest hitting DB in the NFL. Do you remember a memorable Brown hit or tackle? Also, Brown was let go by two teams and has only done it one season.
Eric, what are you basing  
Randy in CT : 7/17/2014 11:16 am : link
the idea that Brown was in the wrong place on?

Also, I look forward to see if Berhe can hang in the NFL because in college he hit like a ton of bricks.
Re: being in the right place at the right time  
Aaron in MA : 7/17/2014 11:24 am : link
Can also be looked at as just having a knack for being around the ball, which I would consider a talent, not luck.

Now Stevie could get zero picks this year, which would mean is 2012 was an aberration. But if he has another 6-8 INT...
I think if Brown has another 6-8 interception year  
Jimmy Googs : 7/17/2014 11:33 am : link
that it more likely means the back of the secondary is having a lot of breakdowns again and QBs are taking their chances...
I think part of the story at safety is that the position is  
alligatorpie : 7/17/2014 11:38 am : link
evolving into 3 or 4 different positions: the LB/SS, the CB/FS, who may cover man, the up hitter, the back/deep hitter/tackler of last resort (KP), the deep zone ball hawk etc etc etc.

if you use a complex backfield, that increases the complexity of drafting and player development.

based on no more Joseph, and lack of pressure on QBs last year, and our improvements at cover corner, I expect a more aggressive attack in front 4 or + 1 lb front 5.

and more pure cover from corners.

so, one hopes that whatever fewell and brown had going - prior to injury, can be repeated in some fashion with the safeties.
Eric  
bc4life : 7/17/2014 11:39 am : link
To be fair, re: his hitting ability - Kam Chancellor is not a DB - he is 6'3" and 235 which is LB size. So while he is a big hitter, in reality, he is LB so he should be hitting harder than any other DB. And, he does not need to use his helmet as much as he does as evidenced by the number of fines he received.

If you have a system which features a lot of zone where he can get a bead on guys and launch himself - well that makes a difference.

Not taking anything away form that very good Seattle secondary, they deserve their due. (*They also hold a lot.

Will Hill was a big part of the answer, unfortunately he was also Will Hill.
I think I was getting at how we sometimes slot players due to  
alligatorpie : 7/17/2014 11:49 am : link
size rather than tape.

for example, Hank as a nose, whereas tape shows a player that can get off his feet and grab guys in space more so than almost any nose.

with taylor, you see INTs in college on tape, ints that -roughly- resemble those by brown or cam c (roughly being in position as opposed to running down field alongside of jumping and/or hand play such as you might see with a corner).

so, I was just cautioning that all these rooks deserve a long look, and not be relegated prior to reps to LB tweener, or any particular narrow role, as we read that taylor was 'told to get even bigger'.
Miller  
alligatorpie : 7/17/2014 11:57 am : link
raiders brit OT Menelic Watson is on BBC world service right now, talking about the NFL etc etc
I don't think Demps is secure at all.  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/17/2014 12:38 pm : link
He and Holliday got the same modest $100K bonus, and I only see room for one of them unless the loser of the KR battle climbs the depth chart at his respective position, via performance and/or injuries.

Demps is learning to play in the box. Regardless of the supportive words from Coach Merritt, it's a new role for him. That reduces his experience edge over Taylor and Berhe, who were hybrids in college. If Brown is close to 100%, Demps might be no better than the third-best option at each safety spot. He is also significantly more expensive to keep than Taylor or Berhe (and more expensive than Holliday too).

The Will Hill saga helped Demps's cause, and he has several different paths to the roster; but none of them are secure.
Randy...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/17/2014 1:02 pm : link
the looks at Brown by other members of the secondary when someone was running free down the middle. I'm a big fan of what Brown did in 2012, but he was MIA at times too.

Blogger...you would think, but the Giants have really been talking up Demps like they did Mundy at this time last year.
bc4life  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/17/2014 1:03 pm : link
yes, but the way Brown is built, you would expect him to be a very good hitter and tackler.

I thought his run defense wasn't very good at all.
brown  
area junc : 7/17/2014 1:05 pm : link
can hit, he laid some guys out in 2012. he's not sean taylor but he can hit
Can't see the maybe on Demps  
BillT : 7/17/2014 1:25 pm : link
At rhe moment he's the #3 safety and #1 KR. Even though I think Taylor may get some if his snaps he's not going to lose his roster spot. He would have to get beat out by Berhe and have the Giants keep only 4 safeties. That's not happening.
Safety is another unit in long-term flux.  
Red Dog : 7/17/2014 1:25 pm : link
Realistically every Safety currently on this team could be gone in the next year or two for one reason or another. But for now, other than Rolle it's just another big question mark on this team for 2014.

Regarding Cooper Taylor, his biggest problem is that he is injury prone, with a long history of them in college and last year as a GIANTS rookie. But he's a potential all-star if he can stay healthy, so he's not going anywhere this season, except maybe to the IR list.

Berhe was drafted as insurance in case Taylor breaks down again, one of the many reasons I felt the GIANTS had a very good draft this year (FINALLY !!!!). I agree with Erie that the team will try to place Berhe on the Practice Squad if none of the veterans (Rolle, Brown, Demps, & Taylor) go down this summer. Otherwise, he's the likely next man up.

Ditto CB Jackson to the PS. He is in line to replace a veteran CB next year. We don't know who yet, but somebody is likely to leave one way or another. They shouldn't have any problem getting Jackson to the PS.
Although I have no particular insight on Quintin Demps...  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/17/2014 4:02 pm : link
...it's pretty clear that retread veterans on one-year deals with token guaranteed money enjoy little job security. Recent examples include Josh Freeman, David Carr, Ryan Torain, Aaron Curry and Frank Okam.

The best-case scenario is usually that cheap young players whom the team controls for multiple years (Taylor, Berhe, Jackson, Kennard, Donnell, etc.) perform well and push short-timers like Demps, Bowman, Herzlich, Davis and Fells off the roster. Of course, some of the youngsters won't show enough in camp and pre-season, and the vets provide a fallback option. But if it's a close call at cutdown time, the Giants might very well kick Demps to the curb, rather than expose Taylor and/or Berhe to waivers.

Even if the coaches' praise for him is 100% sincere, Demps will always be a tweaked hamstring away from the street.
Eric Fair point  
bc4life : 7/17/2014 4:24 pm : link
Hitting, run support, and rbs running hard is way more about attitude and mentality than size.
I'm not a Stevie Brown fan.  
Ira : 7/17/2014 6:58 pm : link
Losing Will Hill will hurt. He played at a pro bowl level. It's good to keep both Behre and Taylor to see who develops best.
Decent group. I like the potential of some of these guys  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 7/18/2014 10:47 am : link
like Taylor and Berhe in a year or two. Demps should be good in the 3rd safety role. I'm not sure how Brown will be. Doubtful he reproduces the INT total and if he's not getting INTs he doesn't really add much value on the field and is a liability.

Any chance the Giants pick up Hill mid season if the position is struggling and they have room for him?
Back to the Corner