We have an esteemed Giants of recent vintage going in next Saturday, but there have been omissions. Phil Simms comes up every year, but who are some others that have been overlooked?
I have three.
1) Len Younce - How many linemen can be described as triple threats? Younce cleared the way for Tuffy Leemans on offense, stuffed the run on defense and also punted and place kicked!
2) Jimmy Patton - He was one of the great players of the Giants defense in the late 1950's - early 60's teams. He was not overshadowed by Sam Huff, Andy Robustelli and others, as his five First Team All Pro selections show. Patton was the first player to return a punt and kickoff for touchdowns in a single game (10/30/55 vs Washington).
3) George Young - Like Patton, Young was decorated five times in recognition of his performance as NFL Executive of the Year (1984, 1986, 1990, 1993, 1997). He revitalized the Giants franchise from their moribund state in 1979, then moved on to duties in with the NFL competition committee in 1998. Young was a finalist for the HOF three times from 2003-05, but just missed the cut.
Tiki would have been a lock with two more average season.
He's 24th in career rushing yards, but is just 1,000 yards from 16th and less than 2,000 yards from top 10.
No one ahead of him in the rankings has a higher YPC except Barry Sanders and Jim Brown.
And as it stands Tiki shouldn't be in, so I don't really have a problem with any Giants not being in the HOF, who aren't it, except maybe Young.
I agree about Bavaro, had he not gotten hurt, I think he would have been the best TE of all time. He was headed on that path.
The one thing most outsiders fail to recognize was his outstanding blocking. John Madden stated in a game versus the Skins it was the best blocking game he ever saw from a TE.
He was a complete TE.
Wietecha's deserving as well
In his third season with the team, the Giants made the playoffs for the first time in 18 years.
Six years into his tenure, they had their first double-digit win season in 22 years.
Seven years into his tenure, they won their first championship in 30 years.
This was all done with no free agency. There were no quick fixes back then - which was probably just as well since the institution of free agency is something GY didn't adapt to well.
Perhaps had Bavaro hung up the cleats after 1990 he would've had a chance, leaving people wanting more instead of hanging on with the Browns and (ugh) Eagles.
If Oates played his whole career for the niners he'd be in canton by now.
Had the giants beat the Colts in 1958 or '59 he probably would've gone in a long time ago.
From Time Magazine:
"A game always leaves Patton so taut that he has long given up any thoughts of sleep for that night. With Dick Nolan, the Giants' other safety man, Patton often stalks the deserted streets of Manhattan until dawn. But he makes a special point not to brood about any opposition receiver who got away for a touchdown. "If I could stop every pass," says the Giants' Jimmy Patton, "no one could afford to pay my salary."
Then again NGT )Roger Brown (DET, LA) and Larry Brooks (LA) two of the best DT's of the 60's and 70's not being in is a farce...
The fact (NGT) Dave Robinson had to wait so long while Chris Hamburger and Dave Wilcox were admitted earlier was strange...
Even though his Giants career was brief, Erich Barnes (CHI, NYG, CLE) was a talented DH\CB who had a lengthy career...
The fact the Giants own version of the HOF doesn't have Patton in is more disturbing...along with so many others, there should be yearly induction ceremonies for that...
Two time champion. Two time first team All-Pro (and would have been many more if not for Vencie goddamned Glenn).
But IMO to be considered for the HOF there are a number of criteria to be met and sadly longevity is one of them.
He just didn't do it long enough.
It is tough for certain positions to be recognized, look at the stats that Bobby Boyd of the Colts had during the 60's and he isn't in the HOF as a DB either...
I think Bavaro should be in, shortened career or not.
George Young should be in.
Those three to me are almost non-disputable.
After that I get to the guys that I get why they aren't in but are as good as guys already in.
Phil Simms--when he retired, his numbers were in line. But the last 20 years saw the passing numbers make his look pedestrian. Still, those numbers were there when he retired and he was the QB of the Giants for the better part of 10 years, a perennial contender and 2 time SB champion.
Carl Banks--he was a dominant LB at a position that doesn't flash. There were 3 years there where he was as good as anyone in the NFL. And he actually transcended his position/role. But while he continued at a very high level afterwards, it was a lower level than he'd been at and he got lost.
Mark Collins--he'll never get a sniff. No INTs. But he was a dominant CB who punished runners and WRs. The only CB that Rice couldn't consistently beat.
Leonard Marshall--if Dan Hampton and Howie Long deserve to be in, so does Marshall. He was every bit the DL they were and more. But he was in the shadow of LT and never got the credit he should have.
That much, he definitely deserves.
Marshall was an excellent 3/4 DE/DT. But playing next to LT it's justifiably tough to get noticed, or to not assume that his stat totals would be overblown because of all the attention LT drew.
Among RBs with 10k+ rushing yards, only Jim Brown and Barry Sanders had higher YPC averages.
The only ones that come close are Conerly, Simms, and Ottis Anderson. Anderson is the one to me that deserves it the most when you look at his career.
Patton deserves some consideration based on his INTs but that was also an era where there were a lot more INTs thrown.
Jimmy Patton
George Young
Ray Wietecha
Mark Bavaro
Charlie Conerly
Bart Oates
Ottis Anderson
Leonard Marshall
I think Oates is an interesting choice. He anchored two completely different lines (both in personnel and style) in Super Bowls XXI & XXV. William Roberts was the only other OL on both rosters, he was a depth/swing guy in 1986, but started at both LT & LG in 1990. Oates is one of the few centers from the age of specialization who also long snapped, which saved the Giants a roster spot.
Totally agree. Marshall was a monster and gets over looked due to LT but he should be in. No doubt.
PB - Pro Bowl
AP - First team All-Pro
QB Charley Conerly NYG 48-61 PB 2, MVP newspaper association in 59, HOF finalist 71,72,74,75,76,78,80
QB Jack Kemp PIT SD BUF 57 60-69 PB 7 AP 2
QB Earl Morrall SF PIT DET NYG BAL MIA 56-76 PB 2 AP 2, 68 NFL MVP, UPI 68 MVP, 72 comeback player, pass led NFL 26 TD in 68
QB John Brodie SF 57-73 PB 2 AP 1, led NFL comp % in 58, 65, 68, led NFL in comp 65,68,70, led NFL pass TD 65 and 70, NFL AP MVP 70, career pass TD 27th career, 36th career passing yds
QB Frank Ryan LA CLE WAS 58-70 PB 3, pass led NFL passing TD in 64 and 66
QB Don Meredith DAL 60-68 PB 3, Bert Bell award 1966 POY
QB Norm Snead WAS PHI MIN NYG SF 61-76 PB 4, Led NFL comp % 72
QB Bill Kilmer SF NO WAS 61-78 PB 1, led NFL QB rating 72
QB Roman Gabriel LA PHI 62-77 PB 4 AP 1, 1969 NFL AP MVP, 1969 NFL UPI MVP, 1969 Bert Bell award POY, 1973 comeback POY, led NFL passes completed in 73' passing yds 3219 in 73, passing TD in 69 and 73
QB John Hadl SD LA GB HOU 62-77 PB 6 AP 1, led AFL passes completed 1968, led NFL passes completed 1971, led AFL passing yards 1965, 1968, led NFL passing yards 1971, led AFL passing TD in 1968, led NFL passing TD in 1971, lifetime 26th passing yards, 17th TD's
QB Daryle Lamonica BUF OAK 63-74 PB 5 AP 2, 1967 AFL POY for AP and UPI, 1969 UPI POY, led AFL passes completed 1969, passing yards 1969, passing TD in 1967 and 1969
HB Alex Webster NYG 55-64 PB 2
HB Jon Arnett LA CHI 57-66 PB 5 AP 1
HB John David Crow CHI C STL SF 58-68 PB 4 PF, HOF all 1960's team, rush 1000 yds in 1960, led NFL YPC 5.9 in 60 and 1533 yds from scrimmage in 1960
HB Tom Matte BAL 61-72 PB 2 AP 1, led NFL with 11 rush td in 69; led NFL 1422 yds from scrimmage 69
HB Keith Lincoln SD BUF 61-68 PB 5 AP 2
HB Clem Daniels DAL TX OAK SF 60-68 PB 4 AP 2, rush led AFL and only 1000 yard season in 63, rush 3 800+ seasons as well
HB Dick Bass LA 60-69 PB 3, rush yds 1000+ in 62 and 66
HB Billy Cannon HOU OAK KC 60-70 PB 2 AP 2, rush led AFL in 61 with 948 yds, also played TE from 65-70
FB Curtis McClinton KC 62-69 PB 3
HB Tommy Mason MIN LA WAS 61-71 PB 3 AP 1
FB Bill Brown CHI MIN 61-74 PB 4
HB Jim Nance BOS NE NYJ 65-71 73, PB 2 AP 2, 1966 AP and UPI AFL POY, led AFL rushing 1966 with 1458 yds and 1967 with 1216 yds, led AFL rushing TD in 1966
HB Mike Garrett KC SD 66-73 PB 2 AP 1, rushed for 1,000+ yds 67 and 72
HB Lydell Mitchell BAL SD LA 72-80 PB 3, rush 3 1000 seasons, rec led NFL with 72 in 1974 and 71 in 1977
HB Chuck Foreman MIN NE 73-80 PB 5 AP 1 AP, offensive ROY 73, rush 3 1000 seasons, Receptions led NFL with 73 in 1975
FB Alan Ameche BAL 55-60 PB 4 AP 1, rush led NFL with 961 yds and 9 TD in 55, PF HOF all 50's team
FB Rick Casares CHI WAS MIA 55-66 PB 5 AP 1, rush led NFL 1126 yds in 56; led NFL 12 rush TD in 56
FB Don Perkins DAL 61-68 PB 6 AP 1
FB Matt Snell NYJ 64-72 PB 3 AP 1
FB Ken Willard SF STL 65-74 PB 4
WR Gordie Soltau SF 50-58 PB 3 AP 1
WR Billy Howton GB CLE DAL 52-63 PB 4 AP 2, rec led NFL 1231 yds in 52 and 1188 yds in 56; led NFL 12 TD's in 56
WR Ray Renfro CLE 52-63 PB 3, rec led NFL YPC with 20.8 in 55
WR Pete Retzlaff PHI 56-66 PB 5 AP 1, rec led NFL receptions with 56 in 1958; moved to TE in 63 and caught 57,51,66 and 40 passes, Bert Bell award in 1965 for player of the year
WR Harlon Hill CHI PIT DET 54-62 PB 3 AP 2, rec led NFL in YPC with 25.0 in 54 and 24.0 in 56; led NFL with 12 TD in 54; NFL newspaper assoc MVP in 55
WR Del Shofner LA NYG 57-67 PB 5 AP 5, rec led NFL with 1097 yds in 58; had 1125 yds in 61, 1133 yds in 62 and 1181 in 63, PF HOF all 60's team
WR Bobby Joe Conrad CHI C STL DAL 58-69 PB 1 AP 1, rec led NFL 73 receptions in 63, also RDH in 58 and PK and KR
WR Boyd Dowler GB WAS 59-69 71 PB 2, PF HOF all 69's team
WR Art Powell PHI NYT OAK BUF MIN 59-68 PB 4 AP 2, rec led AFL Rec yds with 1130 in 62 and 1304 in 63; led AFL 14 TD in 60 and 16 TD in 63
WR Jimmy Orr PIT BAL 58-70 PB 2 AP 1, rec led NFL in YPC with 27.6 in 58, 21.7 in 64 and 25.6 in 68
WR Sonny Randle CHI C STL SF DAL 58-68 PB 4 AP 1, led NFL 15 TD in 60 rec yds 1000+ in 62 and 63
WR Gail Cogdill DET BAL ATL 60-70 PB 3
WR Carroll Dale LA GB MIN 60-73 PB 3
WR Homer Jones NYG CLE 64-70 PB 2, led NFL 13 rec TD in 67, avg 22.3 yds per reception career 1st all-time
WR Roy Jefferson PIT BAL WAS 65-76 PB 3 AP 1, led NFL rec yds 1968
WR Otis Taylor KC 65-75 PB 3 AP, led NFL rec yds in 1971, led AFL rec TD's in 1967
WR Gary Garrison SD HOU 66-77 PB 4,
WR Harold Jackson LA PHI NE MIN SEA 68-83 PB 5 AP 1, rec led NFL rec yds with 1116 in 69 and 1048 in 72, led NFL TD's with 13 in 73, averaged 20+ YPC in 73,78,79,80, career 35th rec yds, 27th rec TD, 31st YPC 17.9
WR Gene Washington SF DET 69-79 PB 4 AP 3, rec led NFL 1100 yds in 70; led NFL 12 TD's in 72, led NFL 21.2 YPC in 74, avg 20+ YPC in 70,72,74
TE Fred Arbanas KC 62-70 PB 5 AP 3
TE Dave Parks SF NO HOU 64-73 PB 3 AP 1, led NFL 80 receptions 1965, 1344 rec yds 1975, 12 rec TD 1965
TE Jerry Smith WAS 65-77 PB 2 AP 1
TE Raymond Chester OAK BAL 70-81 PB 4, Receptions 364 TD 48 career
OT Bob Skoronski GB 56-68 PB 1
OT Jim Tyrer KC 61-74 PB 9 AP 6, HOF finalist 81
OT Dick Schafrath CLE 59-71 PB 6 AP 4
OT Ernie Wright SD, CIN 60-72 PB 3
OT Len Rohde SF 60-74 PB 1
OT Grady Alderman DET MIN 60-74 PB 6 AP 1
OT Stew Barber BUF 61-69 PB 5 AP 2
OT Charlie Cowan LA 61-75 PB 3
OT Ernie McMillan STL GB 61-75 PB 4
OT Bob Reynolds STL NE 63-73 PB 3
OT Winston Hill NYJ LA PB 8
OT Ralph Neely DAL 65-77 PB 2 AP 3, PF HOF all 60's team
OT Norm Evans HOU MIA SEA 65-78 PB 2
OG Dick Stanfel DET WAS 52-58 PB 5 AP 5, PF HOF Sr candidate 93,12
OG Jim Ray Smith CLE DAL 56-64 PB 5 AP 3
OG Jerry Kramer GB 58-68 PB 3 AP 5, HOF finalist 74,75,76,78,79,80,81,84,87
OG Ken Gray CHI C STL 58-70 PB 6 AP 2
OG John Wooten CLE WAS 59-68 PB 2
OG Ed Budde KC 63-76 PB 7 AP 2
OG Joe Scibelli LA 61-75 PB 1
OG Irv Goode STL MIA 62-74 PB 2
OG Walt Sweeney SD WAS 63-75 PB 8 AP 2
OG Howard Mudd SF CHI 64-70 PB 3 AP 1
OG Bob Young DEN HOU STL NO 66-81 PB 2 AP 1
OG John Niland DAL PHI 66-75 PB 6 AP 2
OG Gale Gillingham GB 66-76 PB 5 AP 2
OG Bob Kuechenberg MIA 70-83 PB 6 AP 1, HOF finalist
02,03,04,05,06,07,08,09
OC Ray Wietecha NYG 53-62 PB 4 AP 1
OC Bruce Bosley SF ATL 56-69 PB 4
OC John Morrow LA CLE 56-66 PB 2
OC Bob DeMarco STL MIA CLE LA 61-75 PB 3 AP 2
OC Mick Tingelhoff MIN 62-78 PB 6 AP 1
OC Jack Rudnay KC 70-82 PB 4
OC Len Hauss WAS 64-77 PB 5
OC Jon Morris BOS NE DET CHI 64-78 PB 7 AP 1
DT Bob Gain CLE 52-64 PB 5
DT Billy Ray Smith LA PIT BAL 57-70
DT Floyd Peters CLE DET PHI WAS 59-70 PB 3
DT Roger Brown DET LA 60-69 PB 6 AP 2
DT Alex Karras DET 58-70 PB 4 AP 3, PF HOF all 60's team
DT Rosey Grier NYG LA 55-66 PB 2 AP 1
DT Charlie Krueger SF 59-73 PB 2
DT Houston Antwine BOS NE PHI 61-72 PB 6 AP 1
DT Tom Sestak BUF 62-68 PB 4 AP 3
DT Jim Hunt BOS 60-70 PB 4
DT Ernie Ladd SD HOU KC 61-68 PB 4 AP 3
DT Jim Dunaway BUF MIA 63-72 PB 4 AP 1
DT Dave Costa OAK BUF DEN SD 63-74 PB 4
DT Tom Keating BUF OAK PIT KC 64-75 PB 2 AP 1
DT Jethro Pugh DAL 65-78
DT Diron Talbert LA WAS 67-80 PB 1
DT Larry Brooks LA 72-82 PB 5 AP 1
DE Jim Katcavage NYG 56-68 PB 3 AP 1
DE Ordell Braase BAL 57-68 PB 2
DE Paul Wiggin CLE 57-67 PB 2
DE Lamar Lundy LA 57-69 PB 1
DE Jerry Mays KC 61-70 PB 7 AP 2
DE Tom Day STL BUF SD 60-68 PB 1
DE Jim Marshall CLE MIN 60-79 PB 2, HOF finalist 04
DE Ben Davidson GB WAS OAK 61-71 PB 3 AP 1
DE Ron McDole STL HOU BUF WAS 61-78 PB 2 AP 1
DE George Andrie DAL 62-72 PB 5 AP 1
DE Verlon Biggs NYJ WAS 65-74 PB 3
DE Jack Gregory CLE NYG 66-79 PB 2
DE Bubba Smith BAL OAK HOU 67-76 PB 2 AP 1
DE LC Greenwood PIT 69-81 PB 6 AP 2, HOF finalist 91,95,96,05,06
LB Walt Michaels GB CLE NYJ 51-61 63 PB 5
LB Joe Fortunato CHI 55-66 PB 5 AP 3, PF HOF all 50's team
LB Larry Morris LA CHI ATL 55-66 PF HOF all 60's team
LB Matt Hazeltine SF NYG 55-68, 70 PB 2
LB Jack Pardee LA WAS 57-72 PB 1 AP 1, INT 22 TD 5
LB Larry Grantham NYJ 60-72 PB 5 AP 5
LB Wayne Walker DET 58-72 PB 3 AP 1, also a PK
LB Maxie Baughan PHI LA WAS 60-70, 74 PB 9 AP 2
LB Jim Houston CLE 69-72 PB 4
LB E.J. Holub KC 61-70 PB 5 AP 2
LB Chuck Howley CHI DAL 58-73 PB 6 AP 5, INT 25
LB Myron Pottios PIT LA WAS 61-73 PB 3
LB Lee Roy Jordan DAL 63-76 PB 5 AP 1, HOF finalist 88, 32 int career
LB Andy Russell PITT 63-76 PB 7
LB Dan Conners OAK 64-74 PB 3
LB Mike Curtis BAL SEA WAS 65-78 PB 4 AP 2,
LB Tommy Nobis ATL 66-76 PB 5 AP 1, PF HOF all 60's team
LB George Webster HOU PIT NE 67-76 PB 3 AP 3
LB Isiah Robertson LA BUF 71-82 PB 6 AP 2, INT 25, Defensive ROY 71
LB Bill Bergey CIN PHI 69-80 PB 5 AP 2, INT 27
LB Phil Villapiano OAK BUF 71-83 PB 4
DB Jimmy Patton NYG 55-66 PB 5 AP 5, int led NFL 11 in 58; int ret yds over 100 in 58,60,61,62, career int 26th
DB Erich Barnes CHI NYG CLE 58-71 PB 6 AP 1, led NFL with 195 int return yds 61
DB Dick Lynch WAS NYG 58-66 PB 1 AP 1, led NFL 9 int in 61 and 63 led NFL int ret yds with 251 in 63 and 3 TD
DB Abe Woodson SF STL 58-66 PB 5 AP 2, led in KOR yds with 1157 in 62
DB Bobby Boyd BAL 60-68 PB 2 AP 3, career 57 int, 9 in 64, 9 in 65, PF HOF all 60's team
DB Butch Byrd BUF DEN 64-71 PB 5 AP 3, INT 40 career
DB Dave Grayson KC OAK 61-70 PB 6 AP 4, int led AFL 10 in 68, had 297 int return yds in 64, 145 in 65, 195 in 68, and 132 in 69, led AFL in KOR yds in 61
DB Bob Jeter GB CHI 63-73 PB 2 AP 1, ret two int for TD in 66, had 8 int in 67
DB Cornell Green DAL 62-74 PB 5 AP 3
DB Eddie Meador LA 59-70 PB 6 AP 2, PF HOF all 60's team
DB Johnny Robinson KC 60-71 PB 7 AP 6, HOF finalist 80,81,82,83,85,86,
Led AFL 10 int in 66 and 10 int in 70; int return yds 99 in 65, 136 in 66, 158 in 69 and 155 in 70
DB Richie Petitbon CHI LA WAS 59-72 PB 4 AP 1, led NFL 212 int return yds in 62
DB George Saimes BUF DEN 63-72 PB 5 AP 3
DB Jerry Stovall STL 63-71 PB 3
DB Spider Lockhart NYG 65-75 PB 2, led NFL 4 fumbles recovered 67, 2 int returned for TD in 68
DB Lemar Parrish CIN WAS BUF 70-82 PB 8 AP 1
DB Jake Scott MIA WAS 70-78 PB 5 AP 2, Super Bowl mvp in 72
DB Cliff Harris DAL 70-79 PB 6 AP 3, HOF finalist 2004, PF HOF all 70's team
PK Sam Baker WAS CLE DAL PHI 53-69 PB 4
PK Tommy Davis SF 59-69 PB 2
PK Lou Michaels LA PIT BAL GB 58-69 71 PB 2, also played DE
PK Jim Bakken STL 62-78 PB 4 AP 2, PF HOF all 60's team, PF HOF all 70's second team, led NFL pts scored 1967, also punted
**players entering the league 50-67, a few after that...maybe some day I'll finish