I honestly cannot see a single team offering a better package than that. Now if you are asking me whether I would make that trade as the mets my answer is hell no.
I'd compare him offensively to Matt Holiday, but a SS. Whats that worth?
A lot. Look at the contract Granderson got to play OF at 33-36 based on a projection of probably high 700s OPS. Look at what Ellbury and Choo got. Cano ONLY got $25 million per, but they have to pay him that salary thru age 40.
If Tulo is expected to be an 8 WAR player, he's worth 60 million per season on the open market based on last year's payout of $7.5mm/WAR. 6 WAR he's still worth $45mm. Obviously no one is giving him that much because of things like injury risk and age-decline. But it's hard to argue that at $20mm for term that he's not a significant bargain wherever he plays, especially in a world where the TV revenue is just exploding.
Again, EVERY SINGLE PLAYER IN BASEBALL IS SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE ON THE ROAD THEN AT HOME. Whats worse then dumb is being woefully ignorant and then pretending as if you know anything, period. At least be yourself man and just accept you have no idea what you are talking about.
Every player is significantly worse on the road then home. Tulo is not that much worse on the road then he is at home, and the #s presented back me up on that. A 3 year sample size is more instructive then career stats, as Tulo might have been more of a product of Coors Field when he was 25 then he is now. Players improve, so to imply that what he did as a rookie is equally relevant to what he did last year would simply be false.
I honestly cannot see a single team offering a better package than that. Now if you are asking me whether I would make that trade as the mets my answer is hell no.
Is that because you aren't familiar with other teams farm systems?
The Red Sox can't beat that offer? The Astros can't beat that offer? The Pirates can't beat that offer? The Cubs can't beat that offer? The Twins can't beat that offer? The Royals can't beat that offer? The Rangers can't beat that offer?
And if the Mets COULD make that deal and don't, then they deserve to be as awful as they have been.
Bautista was a guy that exploded out of nowhere. He wasn't close to the same player after. Gomez is a young player that finally found a groove. Tulo was a stud 7 years ago. There's no reason not to look at his splits from then to now.
Even still, the splits are the splits regardless of overall production. Bautista's splits shouldn't be much different then than they are now, just at a smaller scale.
it's dumb to argue at this point. We agree regarding Tulo. I believe that he has drastic splits which are abnormal to the rest of baseball, you don't. We both agree that no matter where he plays, he's the best SS in baseball and on the open market he should and would command a contract similar to Cano's.
that he was in 2008. If we were discussing that, you'd have a point. We are discussing his splits home and away. He was in Coors 6 years ago for half his games, it should absolutely be factored into his splits.
I'd say on the open market, he should be compared to Cano, no question.
I'd value Tulo more than Cano due to position, but just taking them as equals, Tulo has a MUCH better contract. He is cheaper and doesnt saddle you with any late 30s seasons unlike Cano.
I think you misunderstood my point(or I didn't explain it well). I'm saying IF Tulo was a FA right now, he'd be looking at a contract similar to what Cano just got.
RE: I'm not suggesting that Tulo is the player now Â
that he was in 2008. If we were discussing that, you'd have a point. We are discussing his splits home and away. He was in Coors 6 years ago for half his games, it should absolutely be factored into his splits.
But if he's not the same player, then how is it relevant?
Anyway, we're in agreement in the big picture so we can leave it at that(for once lol).
He's a better player now, but it's all relative. It's not like Bautista who is a completely different player. He's just gotten better as he's gotten older, like most do. It's all relative regarding the splits. The OPS might be lower then, but the difference should be the same. Sorry, couldn't resist explaining myself.
but that just meant Bautista had more room for overall improvement. when you are already a 5+ WAR player, its harder to find places for improvement. Maybe for Tulo its being a better road hitter.
And really- if you look at this career, this year is his worst road OPS since his first 2 seasons in the league. .850 is his lowest road OPS over the past 6 season besides this season.
Every off season is different and all it takes is one idiot GM to offer the moon for a position that they desperately need. Does it mean that player is "worth" that $$ or does it mean that the GM had to go above and beyond just to sign that player?
Cano? Nobody was offering anything close to the Mariners contract.
Granderson? Mets were desperate and had to offer more than everyone else.
Reyes?
Any FA the Yankees sign?
I wouldn't do it but that's a damn strong package for Tulo. You are buying on the idea that he will put up the same numbers in a Mets uniform than he does in a Rockies uniform. And it just won't happen. Plus, you'll have to pay another player $20 million per year and hope he has stats as good as David Wright.
Not that I wouldn't want him on the Mets, but I'm not crazy about giving up all that for a guy with inflated stats and that will be on the wrong side of 30 next year.
Since when is $120 million over six years "not a big contract" or "extremely reasonable?"
The $24 million Cano makes is WAY more than the $20 million that Tulo makes? Lolwut?
When Tulo signed his contract it was the eight highest contract in baseball history...so, spare me with the underpaid bullshit. I'm not exactly going to go crazy comparing him with Cano's contract when that idiot Seattle GM got desperate and decided to pay him $60 million more than the next highest bid.
Since when is $120 million over six years "not a big contract" or "extremely reasonable?"
The $24 million Cano makes is WAY more than the $20 million that Tulo makes? Lolwut?
When Tulo signed his contract it was the eight highest contract in baseball history...so, spare me with the underpaid bullshit. I'm not exactly going to go crazy comparing him with Cano's contract when that idiot Seattle GM got desperate and decided to pay him $60 million more than the next highest bid.
You literally have zero clue of what you are talking about. Less then zero. This is what Dave Cameron said about Tulos deal:
"It’s going to take a ridiculous haul to get him out of Colorado, though, and rightfully so. Even with $130 million left on his deal, Tulowitzki is making about a little more than half of his market value. As a six win player, Tulo is worth something in the range of $35 to $40 million to per year, so while he might not be cheap, he’s still an amazing value, even while making $20 million per season."
He's signed only through his age 35 season, when he will still be a productive player. The length and per year of the deal is a bargain.
Since when is $120 million over six years "not a big contract" or "extremely reasonable?"
The $24 million Cano makes is WAY more than the $20 million that Tulo makes? Lolwut?
When Tulo signed his contract it was the eight highest contract in baseball history...so, spare me with the underpaid bullshit. I'm not exactly going to go crazy comparing him with Cano's contract when that idiot Seattle GM got desperate and decided to pay him $60 million more than the next highest bid.
You literally have zero clue of what you are talking about. Less then zero. This is what Dave Cameron said about Tulos deal:
"It’s going to take a ridiculous haul to get him out of Colorado, though, and rightfully so. Even with $130 million left on his deal, Tulowitzki is making about a little more than half of his market value. As a six win player, Tulo is worth something in the range of $35 to $40 million to per year, so while he might not be cheap, he’s still an amazing value, even while making $20 million per season."
He's signed only through his age 35 season, when he will still be a productive player. The length and per year of the deal is a bargain.
LOL, okay Chuck.
I'm interested in how Tulo is worth $35 to $40 million per year when there is not one player earning anything close to that...now or ever. And he's not a 6 win player...not this year and not since 2010 (unless you count his 5.9 WAR in 2011...but then we are just splitting hairs, so I'll give you that one).
And, of course this guy has a crystal ball and shares your love of absolutes by saying that he'll still be a productive player at age 35. Could he be? Sure. But 6 years a long time away for an injury prone player. That's a big leap of a statement.
I wonder what all those players with a higher WAR are worth? $50 million per year?
but not a deal i'd do if I was the Mets. Value-wise it isn't enough but risk-wise it is too much. Tulo can't stay healthy and that isn't going to change.
keeping him means giving him an extension then "keeping" him is moronic. Who cares about 2014? They are winning a WS? You either extend him (or intend to) or you deal him when his value couldn't be higher (pennant race with 1.5 years remaining, with multiple teams looking for offensive help). Keeping him to "make a run" in 2014 is truly moronic. They have Flores/Herrera. Zero issue extending Murphy, zero issue trading Murphy, MASSIVE issue keeping him to "make a run" in 2014.
if the Mets are playing reasonably well, even if they have no intention of signing him long term. They want to chase attendance revenue badly. Hope I'm wrong.
seems like a crazy amount to walk away from. Yeah maybe he goes to UCLA and pitches amazingly for 3 years and gets more (the draft numbers obviously will slide up) or maybe he goes the JC route and is great but it's a year of development lost, 5 million he may never see. Lots of sad stories (Harrington comes to mind). 5 million is a huge sum. Hope it works out for him.
keeping him means giving him an extension then "keeping" him is moronic. Who cares about 2014? They are winning a WS? You either extend him (or intend to) or you deal him when his value couldn't be higher (pennant race with 1.5 years remaining, with multiple teams looking for offensive help). Keeping him to "make a run" in 2014 is truly moronic. They have Flores/Herrera. Zero issue extending Murphy, zero issue trading Murphy, MASSIVE issue keeping him to "make a run" in 2014.
keep him and try to extend him before next season if not trade him in off season
keeping him means giving him an extension then "keeping" him is moronic. Who cares about 2014? They are winning a WS? You either extend him (or intend to) or you deal him when his value couldn't be higher (pennant race with 1.5 years remaining, with multiple teams looking for offensive help). Keeping him to "make a run" in 2014 is truly moronic. They have Flores/Herrera. Zero issue extending Murphy, zero issue trading Murphy, MASSIVE issue keeping him to "make a run" in 2014.
keep him and try to extend him before next season if not trade him in off season
that's assuming we keep playing as we were prior to break. Speaking of breaks how was yours?
re Murphy, extend him or trade him. Im more in the trade him camp -- between Flores, Herrera, Reynolds, and all the SS prospects we have, we have very good organizational depth capable of manning 2b. Not super excited about paying him into his mid 30s, nor getting crappy compensation when he's the 3rd best UFA who signs with LAD/LAA/NYY after 2015.
As for Aiken, that's crazy ballsy. He needs to be a top 5 pick (3??) to make that 5 million back. He should call up Matt Harrington, the Rockies' #7 overall pick in 2000, who was a 2nd rounder in 2001, then out of the top 10 rounds in 2002 and 2003, and now changes tires at Costco. He passed on $5 million too.
went to Colorado and fell in love with the state. I'm not a winter sports guy so I'm not sure if it would be the place for me year round but awesome state, cool people, tons to do. Oddly saw a lot of people in Mets stuff (ok maybe like 3 but still weird lol) met a Mets fan from... Utah!
if I was Gm. If I was able to add a substantial piece for either LF or SS long term id move him but if im only adding ok pieces in those spots I may keep him
The trading Murphy debate has been beaten to death already Â
nothing good can come from saying these kind of things.
Quote:
Niese disputed the thesis that Mets fans show an abundance of loyalty.
“How can you say that?” Niese said. “We are not filling the stadium. Where are the Mets fans when we are down-and-out? They were here in ’06 and ’07 when we were really good, but we have struggled and they are not coming to the stadium.”
I read the ESPN article that actually reported this, and wasnt "offended":
Quote:
"What do I think of Met fans?" Niese said with a laugh. "That's a good question. I really don't know except they want their team to win, pretty much like any other fan. That is pretty much all I know."
When it was pointed out to him that Mets fans have stuck with their team through a lot of bad times, Niese questioned the sentiment.
"How can you say that?" Niese said. "We are not filling the stadium. Where are the Mets fans when we are down-and-out? They were here in '06 and '07 when we were really good, but we have struggled and they are not coming to the stadium."
The Mets drew 4 million in their final season at Shea in 2008. This year, they may not top 2013's 2.1 million.
He was pushed on the point and chooses not to ignore reality. Have we Mets fans stuck around? Some have, some havent. That's obvious. Revenues are way down -- I'd argue correctly, since the Coupons cut spending. So should Niese send the bosses the message that everything is a-okay? Link - ( New Window )
the fans have not supported the team as they did when the Mets were winning games and in contention. The player is not about to question his boss, however, so it's easy to point and say the fans are fickle because they only show up when the team wins.
I read that the Mets have the 3rd best ratings this year. NYY and DET are 1 and 2. LAD ratings have tanked since apparently only a third of households in LA get the Dodgers' channel.
I think it's pretty Amazin' that the Mets are #3 in ratings when we're nearly eliminated by the ASG and are suffering clear fan abuse. Mets are lucky to have the fan base they have.
Frankly, I'm really uninterested in moving Wheeler. Definitely not with Syndergaard. There are other guys I'd rather include to pump up the value of the package.
A lot. Look at the contract Granderson got to play OF at 33-36 based on a projection of probably high 700s OPS. Look at what Ellbury and Choo got. Cano ONLY got $25 million per, but they have to pay him that salary thru age 40.
If Tulo is expected to be an 8 WAR player, he's worth 60 million per season on the open market based on last year's payout of $7.5mm/WAR. 6 WAR he's still worth $45mm. Obviously no one is giving him that much because of things like injury risk and age-decline. But it's hard to argue that at $20mm for term that he's not a significant bargain wherever he plays, especially in a world where the TV revenue is just exploding.
Again, EVERY SINGLE PLAYER IN BASEBALL IS SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE ON THE ROAD THEN AT HOME. Whats worse then dumb is being woefully ignorant and then pretending as if you know anything, period. At least be yourself man and just accept you have no idea what you are talking about.
Every player is significantly worse on the road then home. Tulo is not that much worse on the road then he is at home, and the #s presented back me up on that. A 3 year sample size is more instructive then career stats, as Tulo might have been more of a product of Coors Field when he was 25 then he is now. Players improve, so to imply that what he did as a rookie is equally relevant to what he did last year would simply be false.
Is that because you aren't familiar with other teams farm systems?
The Red Sox can't beat that offer? The Astros can't beat that offer? The Pirates can't beat that offer? The Cubs can't beat that offer? The Twins can't beat that offer? The Royals can't beat that offer? The Rangers can't beat that offer?
And if the Mets COULD make that deal and don't, then they deserve to be as awful as they have been.
Either way, it's pointless because he's a stud no matter where he plays.
Either way, it's pointless because he's a stud no matter where he plays.
OK So should we judge Jose Bautista as a player based on who he is now or who he was then? Carlos Gomez? Alex Gordon? Adam Jones?
Even still, the splits are the splits regardless of overall production. Bautista's splits shouldn't be much different then than they are now, just at a smaller scale.
I'd value Tulo more than Cano due to position, but just taking them as equals, Tulo has a MUCH better contract. He is cheaper and doesnt saddle you with any late 30s seasons unlike Cano.
But if he's not the same player, then how is it relevant?
Anyway, we're in agreement in the big picture so we can leave it at that(for once lol).
And really- if you look at this career, this year is his worst road OPS since his first 2 seasons in the league. .850 is his lowest road OPS over the past 6 season besides this season.
Cano? Nobody was offering anything close to the Mariners contract.
Granderson? Mets were desperate and had to offer more than everyone else.
Reyes?
Any FA the Yankees sign?
I wouldn't do it but that's a damn strong package for Tulo. You are buying on the idea that he will put up the same numbers in a Mets uniform than he does in a Rockies uniform. And it just won't happen. Plus, you'll have to pay another player $20 million per year and hope he has stats as good as David Wright.
Not that I wouldn't want him on the Mets, but I'm not crazy about giving up all that for a guy with inflated stats and that will be on the wrong side of 30 next year.
Its not a big contract, its an extremely reasonable one.
The $24 million Cano makes is WAY more than the $20 million that Tulo makes? Lolwut?
When Tulo signed his contract it was the eight highest contract in baseball history...so, spare me with the underpaid bullshit. I'm not exactly going to go crazy comparing him with Cano's contract when that idiot Seattle GM got desperate and decided to pay him $60 million more than the next highest bid.
The $24 million Cano makes is WAY more than the $20 million that Tulo makes? Lolwut?
When Tulo signed his contract it was the eight highest contract in baseball history...so, spare me with the underpaid bullshit. I'm not exactly going to go crazy comparing him with Cano's contract when that idiot Seattle GM got desperate and decided to pay him $60 million more than the next highest bid.
You literally have zero clue of what you are talking about. Less then zero. This is what Dave Cameron said about Tulos deal:
"It’s going to take a ridiculous haul to get him out of Colorado, though, and rightfully so. Even with $130 million left on his deal, Tulowitzki is making about a little more than half of his market value. As a six win player, Tulo is worth something in the range of $35 to $40 million to per year, so while he might not be cheap, he’s still an amazing value, even while making $20 million per season."
He's signed only through his age 35 season, when he will still be a productive player. The length and per year of the deal is a bargain.
Cano is owed 240 million through his age 40 season.
how are the two deals comparable in terms of value?
Quote:
Since when is $120 million over six years "not a big contract" or "extremely reasonable?"
The $24 million Cano makes is WAY more than the $20 million that Tulo makes? Lolwut?
When Tulo signed his contract it was the eight highest contract in baseball history...so, spare me with the underpaid bullshit. I'm not exactly going to go crazy comparing him with Cano's contract when that idiot Seattle GM got desperate and decided to pay him $60 million more than the next highest bid.
You literally have zero clue of what you are talking about. Less then zero. This is what Dave Cameron said about Tulos deal:
"It’s going to take a ridiculous haul to get him out of Colorado, though, and rightfully so. Even with $130 million left on his deal, Tulowitzki is making about a little more than half of his market value. As a six win player, Tulo is worth something in the range of $35 to $40 million to per year, so while he might not be cheap, he’s still an amazing value, even while making $20 million per season."
He's signed only through his age 35 season, when he will still be a productive player. The length and per year of the deal is a bargain.
LOL, okay Chuck.
I'm interested in how Tulo is worth $35 to $40 million per year when there is not one player earning anything close to that...now or ever. And he's not a 6 win player...not this year and not since 2010 (unless you count his 5.9 WAR in 2011...but then we are just splitting hairs, so I'll give you that one).
And, of course this guy has a crystal ball and shares your love of absolutes by saying that he'll still be a productive player at age 35. Could he be? Sure. But 6 years a long time away for an injury prone player. That's a big leap of a statement.
I wonder what all those players with a higher WAR are worth? $50 million per year?
Link - ( New Window )
unless we can pull out a 6-4 or better roadtrip then keeping him and trying to win is the play
keep him and try to extend him before next season if not trade him in off season
Quote:
keeping him means giving him an extension then "keeping" him is moronic. Who cares about 2014? They are winning a WS? You either extend him (or intend to) or you deal him when his value couldn't be higher (pennant race with 1.5 years remaining, with multiple teams looking for offensive help). Keeping him to "make a run" in 2014 is truly moronic. They have Flores/Herrera. Zero issue extending Murphy, zero issue trading Murphy, MASSIVE issue keeping him to "make a run" in 2014.
keep him and try to extend him before next season if not trade him in off season
that's assuming we keep playing as we were prior to break. Speaking of breaks how was yours?
As for Aiken, that's crazy ballsy. He needs to be a top 5 pick (3??) to make that 5 million back. He should call up Matt Harrington, the Rockies' #7 overall pick in 2000, who was a 2nd rounder in 2001, then out of the top 10 rounds in 2002 and 2003, and now changes tires at Costco. He passed on $5 million too.
“How can you say that?” Niese said. “We are not filling the stadium. Where are the Mets fans when we are down-and-out? They were here in ’06 and ’07 when we were really good, but we have struggled and they are not coming to the stadium.”
Link - ( New Window )
When it was pointed out to him that Mets fans have stuck with their team through a lot of bad times, Niese questioned the sentiment.
"How can you say that?" Niese said. "We are not filling the stadium. Where are the Mets fans when we are down-and-out? They were here in '06 and '07 when we were really good, but we have struggled and they are not coming to the stadium."
The Mets drew 4 million in their final season at Shea in 2008. This year, they may not top 2013's 2.1 million.
He was pushed on the point and chooses not to ignore reality. Have we Mets fans stuck around? Some have, some havent. That's obvious. Revenues are way down -- I'd argue correctly, since the Coupons cut spending. So should Niese send the bosses the message that everything is a-okay?
Link - ( New Window )
I think it's pretty Amazin' that the Mets are #3 in ratings when we're nearly eliminated by the ASG and are suffering clear fan abuse. Mets are lucky to have the fan base they have.
In other news, I started a game thread.
game thread - ( New Window )