NFT: Securing the Flight 17 crash site is a huge problem

It could take weeks just to identify all of the bodies.

with one swipe of his hand..

They won't let anyone near it.

are no separatists. These are Russian operatives planted inside the Ukraine to foster a anschluss with mother Russia.

collecting them and giving them proper burials, etc. But as far as an investigation goes,I don't get why there's such a fuss. People focusing on black boxes because that's what you do with unexplained crashes and we're conditioned. We don't need them here. And, in general, all the UN, US, and whoever else need to thoroughly investigate seems to me to be more of a way to put off doing what needs to be done. There's no question what caused the plane to crash or who did it. So either hammer sanctions or admit you cant do anything to the Russians. But investigating is a farce.

There are Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine who would like to be part of Russia. They aren't the ones doing the majority of the fighting, but they did help the Russian invaders occupy some towns.

The press reports have been that Russians trained Russian speaking Ukrainians in the use of the SAMs. If it was all Russian soldiers, why would they need training?

obviously I have not expertise in this area, but I said the same thing you did to my wife.

We know what happened... a missile hit the plane.

Russians are being dumb. Bad PR move on their part. But so was shooting down a commercial airliner... so they have that going for them.

Of course there are Russians in the eastern Ukraine who would prefer to be annexed by Russia.

But they are not the ones causing the problems.

If Putin wasn't actively instigating the insurgency, there wouldn't be one.

the missile battery commander is Russian from Moscow who works for the intelligence service.

my point being, he's not a Russian from the Ukraine. He's a Muscovite. He has zero ties to the Ukraine.

Recovering the Flight Data and Cockpit Voice Recorders allows investigators to assess actions taken prior, during, and after the missile strike by the crew. Analysis will also allow them to see how the airplane performed, ie which systems were directly hit and/or suffered afterwards, what the controllablility of the aircraft was, etc. Data can even be used to help future designs mitigate the effects (to a degree) of these types of events.

Though understand why we still need to investigate. This seems like a mistake/collateral damage. It is accurate that the airline was flying where others would not?

I will tell you exactly what happened

- vlad the Putin

Also after Russia tells everyone what happened don't be surprised if the box crashes and all data is lost probably same IT company working for IRS

In comment 11773060 DC Gmen Fan said:

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Recovering the Flight Data and Cockpit Voice Recorders allows investigators to assess actions taken prior, during, and after the missile strike by the crew. Analysis will also allow them to see how the airplane performed, ie which systems were directly hit and/or suffered afterwards, what the controllablility of the aircraft was, etc. Data can even be used to help future designs mitigate the effects (to a degree) of these types of events.

I get the importance of black box data, but not sure what kind of a design improvement a commercial airliner can make that will make them less susceptible or increase their survivability when an SA missile strikes it.

Only thing that will prevent future incidents like this will be to ensure that commercial airliners are not flying through a disputed airspace. But I'm not sure you really need a black box data for that.

In comment 11773060 DC Gmen Fan said:

Quote:

Recovering the Flight Data and Cockpit Voice Recorders allows investigators to assess actions taken prior, during, and after the missile strike by the crew. Analysis will also allow them to see how the airplane performed, ie which systems were directly hit and/or suffered afterwards, what the controllablility of the aircraft was, etc. Data can even be used to help future designs mitigate the effects (to a degree) of these types of events.

As I don't work for the NTSB, I could be talking out of my ass here. Commercial airliners don't have countermeasures, and practically they shouldn't need them. If they get hit by a missile, they can't maintain flight integrity and they go boom. If a military jet takes a direct missile strike, it's going down. Unless a pilot identified the source of the launch or picked up ground chatter it's pretty clear what happened. The Russians being protective of the wreckage just confirms what the rest of the world suspects.

The real question is who's the idiot that routed a commercial flight through a war zone.

How to do better in the future. But what they talk about in calling for the investigations is really to figure out what they already know. I'm concerned that we and Europe are so impotent that we will talk and drag things out until we no longer remember, much less have the will to respond, what it was that got us upset in the first place.

but my guess is there was nothing left to control after it was hit. I would say the black box will be similar to the last scene of the Sopranos.

what you'll find in terms of captured data. That's why it's always imperative to locate the recorders. Why did the crew divert? Were there communications with dispatch? Was the Flight Management System programmed wrong? Was there an error in choosing the lateral mode? Things like that.

In comment 11773068 Bill L said:

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How to do better in the future. But what they talk about in calling for the investigations is really to figure out what they already know. I'm concerned that we and Europe are so impotent that we will talk and drag things out until we no longer remember, much less have the will to respond, what it was that got us upset in the first place.

Bill...couldn't agree with you more! This is a classic example of losing sight of the forest for the trees if the investigators focus on the black box and whatnot. Yes, we get that the flight information is about as empirical as you can get when it comes to data about plane crashes, but in this incident, we know what happened. Now instead of confirming what we know, lets go and look at the bigger picture of who and why.

In comment 11773071 DC Gmen Fan said:

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what you'll find in terms of captured data. That's why it's always imperative to locate the recorders. Why did the crew divert? Were there communications with dispatch? Was the Flight Management System programmed wrong? Was there an error in choosing the lateral mode? Things like that.

And that's valid point, especially coming from your expertise. However, as stated in my post to Bill, while this is definitely still a plane crash investigation, the bigger issue goes beyond the events of the actual crash. It is an international political and military matter, which has far bigger implication than the loss of approximately 300 lives (I am not in anyway taking away from the tragedy of so many lives lost), as this has the potential for greater armed conflict that will bring in even more players leading to greater loss of lives.

We know what happened to the aircraft. Sure, have people focus on why the aircraft was flying in the area. But the more important information that needs to be found out is who was responsible for it and under what circumstance? Was it an incident of misidentification by the Russian-backed separatists? Or was it more sinister and politically volatile? Those questions are what Bill is afraid may get lost in this push for investigation.

may not be important for the US to determine what happened, generally who is to blame, but it's important to gather evidence in terms of international criminal law.

It's going to be very difficult to criminally punish the higher ups that are accountable here without good evidence about precisely what happened.

In comment 11773084 carousel said:

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may not be important for the US to determine what happened, generally who is to blame, but it's important to gather evidence in terms of international criminal law. It's going to be very difficult to criminally punish the higher ups that are accountable here without good evidence about precisely what happened.

It goes without saying that criminal accountability is absolutely important, and we definitely need evidence if it comes down to the ICC. However, somehow I doubt that it will ever get that far through any kind of an investigation, even if the black box is found. When you're trying to stave off potential escalation of this Ukraine/Russia situation into even greater armed conflict as result of such catestrophic incident as this, the issue of trying someone in the ICC takes a back seat, in my opinion.

over the years. None (in my remembrance) have resulted in any significant consequences to the countries responsible other than Libya.

Aerolinee Itavia 870 (1980) - NATO?
Korean Air Lines 007 (1983)- Soviets
Iran Air 655 (1988) - US Navy
Lockerbie (1988) - Libya
Siberia Airlines 1812 (2001) - Ukraine
...And MH17 this past week.

There have been a myriad of other commercial airliner shootdowns caused by regional conflicts.

If Russia did it through a proxy, no one is going to hold them accountable in any meaningful way. Even if there's indisputable evidence, who's going to escalate a potential conflict with Russia?

In comment 11773067 giantsfaninphilly said:

Quote:

In comment 11773060 DC Gmen Fan said: Quote: Recovering the Flight Data and Cockpit Voice Recorders allows investigators to assess actions taken prior, during, and after the missile strike by the crew. Analysis will also allow them to see how the airplane performed, ie which systems were directly hit and/or suffered afterwards, what the controllablility of the aircraft was, etc. Data can even be used to help future designs mitigate the effects (to a degree) of these types of events. As I don't work for the NTSB, I could be talking out of my ass here. Commercial airliners don't have countermeasures, and practically they shouldn't need them. If they get hit by a missile, they can't maintain flight integrity and they go boom. If a military jet takes a direct missile strike, it's going down. Unless a pilot identified the source of the launch or picked up ground chatter it's pretty clear what happened. The Russians being protective of the wreckage just confirms what the rest of the world suspects. The real question is who's the idiot that routed a commercial flight through a war zone.

My understanding is that El Al Airlines planes (Isreal national airline) have counter measures aboard.

there is data to be harvested that might assist in future tech.. that is unless the "black boxes" don't get grabbed by some Russian and mutt winds up as a doorstop or an anchor.

In comment 11773046 Bill L said:

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collecting them and giving them proper burials, etc. But as far as an investigation goes,I don't get why there's such a fuss. People focusing on black boxes because that's what you do with unexplained crashes and we're conditioned. We don't need them here. And, in general, all the UN, US, and whoever else need to thoroughly investigate seems to me to be more of a way to put off doing what needs to be done. There's no question what caused the plane to crash or who did it. So either hammer sanctions or admit you cant do anything to the Russians. But investigating is a farce.

In this sense I think the US and EU response is already out there for Putin to see. Nothing will be done. The major players are resorting to and will go no further than "Somebody ought to do something."

Quote:

My understanding is that El Al Airlines planes (Isreal national airline) have counter measures aboard.

I see that they do; they have a basic chaff release system on their flights. Apparently a US senator is asking to petition the FAA to include this type of countermeasure on US planes. See the link.

Whether it's reasonable to equip the US fleet with it would be up for debate considering the challenges of servicing and maintaining a feature as complex as that would be for the sheer number of planes in the US. Think of how much more the cost of flight travel goes up if that cost is added to each plane. Shootdowns are very rare considering the sheer volume of flights worldwide on a daily basis.

Israel, at least, could be considered to be in a perpetual war zone and feels like they can justify the cost.

It's unconscionable that the incident occurred. But Malaysia Airlines played with fire by routing the flight near the area and it had catastrophic results.
Link - ( New Window )

Italia 870 was almost certainly a bomb.

The Ukraine paid damages to the family after admitting fault regarding 1812.

Your talking about a major international incident and thinking 'we all know what happened" should suffice?

Getting debris from the actual missile or other signs of missile damage will undermine Russia's attempts at denying their involvement. It's one thing for Putin to lie about this, it will be quite another to have physical evidence to remove all credibility to such claims, particularly if there are parts traceable to a specific weapons' system.

But re: the investigation this thing is major headache, without even getting into the issue of tampering with the scene. You have the high grass and vegetation issue to deal with.

Unfortunately, I suspect that the size and scope of the area, coupled with all the issues re: to the political/military conflict - the investigation will probably never be conducted to the degree it should be. We're probably past that point already.

There have been complaints that Europe nations need to cooperate more re: sanctions. Irrefutable proof generated from an investigation may put them in the position of ratcheting up the sanctions or undeniable appeasement.