NFT: Opinions on Public Corporal Punishment?

In comment 11773613 Spock said:

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Does the guy who started this thread have any kids?

I have a 10 month old son & expecting a daughter in October, just curious to the responses here.

congrats!

In comment 11773668 Dunedin81 said:

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congrats!

Thanks dune..yea pulled a Cromartie there, less than 3 months after the boy...whoopsies

from time to time

Yes to corporal captain punishment.

I was verbally and mentally abused quite severely as a child. Now, as a parent, I don't scold my kids, I just spank them.

In comment 11773667 CromartiesKid21 said:

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In comment 11773613 Spock said: Quote: Does the guy who started this thread have any kids? I have a 10 month old son & expecting a daughter in October, just curious to the responses here.

Good luck with your kids but boy do you have a long road ahead.

A swat on the butt and removing yourself from a public outburst is IMO pretty normal Beating the kid is not the same as a whack on the butt.

Mine are 15 and 17 and bigger thanI am so now I get to kick the crap out of them . That's a joke just in case someone has their sarcasm meter off.

if I felt it was the best way to discipline them.

I wouldn't do it because I was frustrated with their behavior.

Luckily my kids are 11, 11, and 6 and I've never felt physically restraining or even hitting them was the best discipline.

And I was regularly hit as a kid and deserved to be (hands, belt, wooden spoon, metal spoon when the wooden one broke, etc.). I was downright awful. I was rude, lazy, disobedient, disrespectful, etc. you forgot ugly, freeloading...where was I?

Seriously, I was a bad kid, but my parents disciplined me fine and I wouldn't hesitate to discipline my children similarly, but haven't.

on Christmas Eve? Too much?

-Rich's dad.

Much the same way if you smacked an adult on the ass is battery. I see nothing wrong with a light smack on the ass from time to time as long as that is not the only means of disciplining the child and as long as the child understands why they are being spanked.

More than that and on other parts of the body are not acceptable.

Corporal punishment just isn't how civilized people solve problems in the real world. Can a boss punch a subordinate in the shoulder for being disruptive in a meeting?

In comment 11773867 Matt M. said:

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Much the same way if you smacked an adult on the ass is battery. I see nothing wrong with a light smack on the ass from time to time as long as that is not the only means of disciplining the child and as long as the child understands why they are being spanked. More than that and on other parts of the body are not acceptable.

Back of the hand is still within the range of reasonable, especially when you're trying to convince him not to touch something dangerous.

Who is advocating punching a child?

Reading this thread it is obvious that some people don't have any understanding of what a genuine loving discipline that might incorporate a few swats to the bottom entails.

Agree. It should really read more than that and on other parts of the body...

In comment 11773988 steve in ky said:

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Who is advocating punching a child? Reading this thread it is obvious that some people don't have any understanding of what a genuine loving discipline that might incorporate a few swats to the bottom entails.

What if it's a "loving" gentle punch? Where else in civilized society is corporal punishment acceptable?

and people go out of their way to defend it, even when it's obviously not necessary.

The same logic applies. Don't want to get your ass beat by a cop (or mom and/or dad), try not being disrespectful & keep your mouth shut.

to neutralize a threat that itself is likely to harm others. I don't think people have much sympathy for police brutality for its own sake.

In comment 11773590 Wuphat said:

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daughter without ever hitting her as a form of punishment. It's amazing that she's not out knocking over liquor stores, right?

Yeah, but what about that bank robbery?

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What if it's a "loving" gentle punch?

The very first and unwavering rule if a parent thinks it is in their child's best interest to use spanking as a discipline option. Never spank when angry, and never spank out of anger. I can't believe anyone could punch another person without being angry but let alone their own child!

Anyone who associates punching with swatting a child's rear end either doesn't get it or can't control themselves and their anger and it is would be wise for them to never attempt disciplining a child in this manner.

how is a mild spanking equated with police brutality, bar fights, etc. This is some ludicrous thinking here.

Are there plenty (too many) instances of parents physically abusing children, especially young children? Yes. But, i guarantee there are countless more cases of parents that occasionally spank their child without ever approaching or crossing the line to abuse.

I take myself as an example. I was absolutely spanked as a child. I knew enough as a small child I didn't want to be spanked, especially by my dad, when it was a little harder. I was never hit with a belt or any other object. I was never left with a permanent mark. i was never left with anything other than a butt that was sore for a short while after. But, I still didn't want it and certainly altered my behavior to avoid it. Once the tipping point was reached where spanking had no affect on me, it ceased. I will add, that I have several other issues with my parents, including other forms of abuse and neglect, so I am absolutely not sugar coating this.

I don't use corporal punishment on my 4-year-old daughter, but you can't compare a parent disciplining his or her child -- whose rational skills are considerably underdeveloped and who is largely driven by emotion and impulse -- with two unrelated adults in a professional context. That analogy is a very weak one.

My parents were hit as children, my mom badly.

Somehow, my parents raised three kids without hitting (yes, that includes spanking) any of them and we turned out toi be fine upstanding respectful people.

So should everyone that was spanked and turned out to be "fine upstanding respectful people" also post?

also, if that is her memory and how she describes it as an adult it sounds like your mom may have been abused, which nobody is advocating.

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My parents were hit as children, my mom badly.

I would say she was, though I would consider the paddle/switch/stick to the backside to be abuse and "hit badly", thus my wording.

Always the mark of ace debating.

Reason with a four year old. Go ahead, try it.

In comment 11774678 Greg from LI said:

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Always the mark of ace debating. Reason with a four year old. Go ahead, try it.

Amazingly, not hitting a four year old can work. It's possible! Stunning, I know.

The fact that he thinks talking isn't involved when spanking just proves that he doesn't have a clue, when it actually involves even more time and discussion with your child, or at least it should.

For every kid who was spanked and not abused there is one or more who was abused. for every kid who was spanked and turned out OK, there is one who was a fuck up in at least one way, shape, or form. for every kid that wasn't spanked and turned out OK, there is one who wasn't spanked and is a real asshole with no respect for authority, etc.

There is no complete connection to spanking or not spanking and how children, in general, will turn out. I think it is more a case by case study. The overall philosophy of the parents involved is a huge factor. Their ability to communicate with their children is important. Are they relying solely on spanking? are their children aware of why they were spanked? Is it a regular occurrence? Do tyhe children know they are still loved?

On the flip side, are parents who don't spank efficiently disciplining their kids? Do their children understand consequences, liability, and responsibility? Do their kids understand right from wrong? Do their children respect them and other authority figures? And on and on.

There are good and bad examples on both sides and an awful lot of gray matter in between.

As with so many things, it's a question of degree. A smack or two on the butt with your hand is not abuse.

I never set out to spank, and I fucking hate doing it. I do it occasionally because it works, in that it gets their attention. You can try and reason things out with a 3-4-5-6 year old, but guess what? Their brains don't have the ability to process logic. I can patiently explain to my kids until I'm blue in the face not to swipe each other's toys and do various other things to torment each other, and it has absolutely no effect whatsoever.

but do you actually have kids? "Reasoning" with a three year old that a hot stove is hot, that an electric socket can do without a fork and that a street is not dangerous is more difficult than you suppose. Does that mean a swat on the backside or a smack to the back on the hand is the only way to make it work? No. But that doesn't mean that people who occasionally resort to those methods are Neanderthals.

In comment 11774676 Kyle said:

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I would say she was, though I would consider the paddle/switch/stick to the backside to be abuse and "hit badly", thus my wording.

I would agree, but that is not how I would describe a loving discipline incorporating a few swats to the rear end.

People are lumping in any beating with the word "spanking".

That would be like someone saying well when you talk to your child you must be screaming, belittling and cursing in their face.

Excellent point. That's kind of what I'm getting at.

Sure, I guess as a steadfast rule an absolute no spanking home could mean that there is no physical abuse, which is great. But, it doesn't guarantee there is no abuse of any kind in that home and it doesn't guarantee the kids are better parented or better off.

I generally enjoy debating/arguing with you, but since you have no children I'm not about to take parenting advice from you because you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

If you're talking about actual abuse, people who whip their kids with belts or wooden spoons or whatever, then I agree with you. If you're talking about a swat on the butt, that's completely different.

I obviously referenced better off to those without spanking, not in relation to physical abuse. I hope it goes without saying (but I am saying it anyway) that in no way, shape, or for, do I advocate physically harming or abusing a child. I see absolutely no positive outcome there. i just want to point out there is a difference.

which side you come down on.

I post without further comment other than FYI.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/corporal-punishment-in-the-home-parenting-tool-or-parenting-fail/ - ( New Window )

Absolutely, nobody should advocate beating or punching a child. The problem is for some people they apparently can't discern the difference when they hear "spanking".

I wouldn't expect anyone to take advice from me on most anything.

I find the notion that "you don't have kids, you don't know how you need to spank a kid's ass" to be laughable, though, because then I wonder "well, what would these same people say to my parents for how they handled their situation?".

No-nonsense blue-collar people, too, not New Age let the kid break things to express his inner self yuppie parents.

An example is a child with special needs who may have sensory issues. Sometimes (often?) children like this require certain sensory inputs to help facilitate the process of calming themselves. To one person, an interaction between a parent and this child could appear to be a hug. To another it could be squeezing the child too tightly. the reality is, that child may simply need a certain type of pressure in a certain part of their body to trigger other physical and cognitive processes.

And Hell, to some, what appears to be a hug would be the wrong thing anyway as some would perceive that as rewarding a tantrum or poor behavior. The bottom is each child is unique in their behaviors and needs. Without real knowledge of that child and parent combination, most judgements should really be reserved.

I started reading that piece. It is very interesting. Where I have a problem is the assumption that a child who was never spanked will turn out much better than one who has been spanked. there are plenty of kids who are not spanked that don't turn out OK at all for a variety of reasons. They may not be disciplined in any way. They may have chemical imbalances that have been undetected or untreated. Etc.

In comment 11774727 Kyle said:

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I wouldn't expect anyone to take advice from me on most anything. I find the notion that "you don't have kids, you don't know how you need to spank a kid's ass" to be laughable, though, because then I wonder "well, what would these same people say to my parents for how they handled their situation?". No-nonsense blue-collar people, too, not New Age let the kid break things to express his inner self yuppie parents.

Whenever you hear an expectant parent say "I'll never let my kid watch children's TV" check back in three years, after they've realized laundry and dishes won't do themselves. Everyone wants to reinvent the wheel when it comes to parenting, but sometimes things happen for a reason. And that reason isn't that the 80% or whatever that article says of parents who spank want to brutalize their children, or are lazy or stupid. Some are lazy and stupid and some flirt with abuse, but for the great mass of them they do it because if used judiciously it seems a reasonably effective means of correcting bad or dangerous behavior.

Exactly. Plus, the article talks about when it doesn't work and the only natural course of action being to ramp up the intensity. Huh? As many have said here, spanking is often combined with meaningful communication so the child is aware why they were spanked. In many case, the Pavlovian affect after one or two time, will result in the corrected behavior.

On the flip side, he mentions the superior effectiveness of timeouts and removing privileges. I can say that we have tried several methods with one of my sons. All of them had success for a limited window and then were lost on him. there is no end all, be all.

Simply reacting out of anger and striking you child is wrong and takes little investment on the parents part.

Simply telling a child no or giving them a five minute time out and nothing more takes little investment on the parents part.

Taking the time to attempt to explain and best communicate that their maturity will absorb, whether that involves a few swats to the bottom or not is a lot harder to stop and do when you having a stressful or busy day. They key is loving them enough to invest that time. The child will know the difference.

I don't think the author proposed that.

What he's saying is that the without spankings, the hypothetical kid would have also turned out fine, and might have turned out better.

He's not saying that the kid would definitely have turned out better.

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But in any one individual case, it very well may be true that an adult who was submitted to recurrent episodes of corporal punishment as a child has turned out just fine. Of course they would have almost certainly turned out just fine if they had never been spanked. They might have turned out better though.

I don't necessarily agree with the "of course" statement, but I also don't think he's said what you've classified as an assumption that they would have been "much better off".

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Some are lazy and stupid and some flirt with abuse, but for the great mass of them they do it because if used judiciously it seems a reasonably effective means of correcting bad or dangerous behavior.

Like the parent in the OPs example? That's effective? The kid screamed louder and the parent had to leave the store. I don't hit my kids for any reason, but I can guarantee that no matter how tired my kid is, that my use of a time out in the store and a quick discussion with him would have produced a better outcome for everyone.

I'm not advocating other people to spank if they don't want to. I'm saying that I do it infrequently to stop extreme misbehavior, and I categorically reject the idea that this constitutes child abuse.

do take time. And they're not always particularly effective. For an older kid the mere fact of a timeout is usually enough but for our two year old you have to sit there with him for two minutes, explain (to little or no comprehension) what he did wrong and then find some method of atonement. It doesn't register because he's two. We do it anyway because he doesn't understand taking things away and because we use corporal punishment sparingly, but the alternatives aren't always particularly effective at a young age.

If that was addressed to me you need to re-read my post, you missed my point.

In comment 11774775 steve in ky said:

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If that was addressed to me you need to re-read my post, you missed my point.

It wasn't expressly to contradict your post but I was responding to it. Just pointing out that the issue can be better understood as child development in between particular milestones (the ability to do dangerous or mean things and the ability to respond to logical cues) than the primacy of one method over another.

It was the use of "of course" that I specifically took exception to.