NFT: Knicks shopping Smith, Shumpert and Larkin

thanks. Dahntay Jones can kick rocks.

.

he was an absolute force in the playoffs a year ago. offensively and defensively

the biggest problem was that we didnt play him enough in those series.

literally every time he came in the game we went on runs and he made spectacular offensive and defensive plays

he even hit clutch 3s

last year there was a pox on this team and i can give him a pass.

i think its worth seeing if he can be that player again under phil and fish

an "absolute force" is a bit much.

And even in the games where he played well offensively it was because he was hitting his threes. He is no where near a good enough shooter to live and die with the 3 and that is pretty much what he does. Almost any game that he has put up a strong point total is because he happened to shoot the ball well that game from 3.

Shumperts games begin with his defense and he is able to get some steals and fast break opportunities.

then he gets a bit revved up and gets some open 3s.

last year woodsen abandoned any pretense of a defense.

its not hard to imagine a defensive guy losing motivation and his offense suffering as a result

on what we saw is making a mistake. It's been well documented to this point that there was no defensive system and everyone was on a different page. Woodson routinely played Shump at the 3 despite his strength being that he defends guards better than anyone on the roster. I'm not suggesting that he's some untradable asset, but I am refuting what most on bbi keep saying. Shump's value is way too low and he's much better than what we saw last year. He's the only one that can make a difference on defense and he's proven that his defensive skills are disruptive.

what are his offensive strengths? Below average shooter and finisher, below average handle for a 1/2 and nondescript passer (I'd argue below average given his pattern of putting his head down, driving and then getting caught in no man's land).

but not for JR. JR was the better player last year and JR is the guy with the higher ceiling to do better this season.

Not a good ball handler(not terrible, but not good enough to play the 1. Maybe in the triangle he can though). Not a great shooter, but has shown some flashes of touch. Sort of depressing that he's such a bad finisher because he's extremely athletic and gets to the rim easily, just can't finish.

In comment 11774963 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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but not for JR. JR was the better player last year and JR is the guy with the higher ceiling to do better this season.

Again. JR has a long history of being a loser with 2 years ago being the aberration.

looks a lot more like a poor man's Tony Allen than a poor man's Wade.

he was a poor mans wade?

hands are actually average sized for a player of his size but they must just be shitty hands lol

yes on BBI it was said during his rookie season. I'm not suggesting anyone actually thinks Shumpert is going to be Wade.

It's funny, in my "real life" circles, I'm not considered a massive Shump fan. My brother is a massive Shump fan and he would argue that he's got Wade potential all the time. I'd always argue that he's nuts because Shump has limited offensive game. I don't remember reading that on bbi though.

a trade, but will wait until the right opportunity comes along to make a move. No "Dolaning".

still think that one game/stretch in a game Wade had vs. the Knicks a few years ago was one of the most ridiculously dominant things I've ever seen in the NBA.

Iman Shumpert has gotten progressively worse every single season. It's not that he's improved slightly, or just plateaued. He's gotten worse as a basketball player.

If we're going to blame this on his psyche, than he's more of a "loser" than JR Smith ever was. At least JR Smith will try and play through his rough stretches. Iman Shumpert refused to do anything offensively.

Iman Shumpert's FG% was .378 with 26.5 minutes per game. That is beyond awful.

waiting on Shumpert's offensive game to develop are likely going to be waiting a very long time.

that don't include shooting or dribbling.

He's young, it's to be expected. Also, saying Iman has gotten progressively worse is disingenuous. He had a major knee injury that destroyed his 2nd season and had a terrible 3rd season. He was awesome as a rookie, dominated in the playoffs(defensively) and then was again very good in the playoffs 2 years ago after coming back quickly from the ACL. Last year was a disaster.

JR Smith is a loser and because you are a huge fan, you don't want to ackowledge that. Whenever you need to count on him, he comes up small. He's been in the NBA for a long time now and he's proven over and over again that he's unreliable.

suggesting JR tried playing through his rough stretches is a joke. He barely tried for half the season last year. He's a head case and it effected his effort which is something that we never saw from Shump. I hate guys that won't try because they are upset.

JR Smith's defense is lightyears ahead of Iman's offense, but that's not even doing JR Smith justice. Last year, there was no real gap between either of their defenses.

Nonetheless, Iman Shumpert has shown terrific on ball defense. But that's half the battle, he's still a piss poor off ball defender. So we're keeping a guy that has zero offensive game whatsoever, below average off ball defending, but occasional terrific on ball defender over JR Smith? No thanks.

or finishing. I do think he has a nice stroke and could become a decent enough shooter, but he will never be a good offensive player. If he can be adequate though, that works with his defensive tenacity. I wonder if he can play the 1 in the triangle or if defenses would just sag off of him because he can't shoot?

But doesn't fly for JR. Yeah, Iman's was more severe...there's no doubt about that. But it's not even acknowledged that JR Smith had surgery done in the offseason.

we will see. I'd guess that Shump has more value to Phil Jackson than you are giving him credit for. If there was a demand for JR, he'd be traded already, but I'd bet most teams don't want anything to do with him as of now.

you are kidding right?? Iman missed most of the season 2 years ago. There's no excuse. When you aren't on the floor, you shouldn't be considered regressing. He came back in like 6 months from ACL reconstruction and it def took him some time to get into the swing of things. By the playoffs, he was back to being Iman. You are the one who says he got progressively worse every year. So when a guy is hurt and not playing, he should be considered worse? Got it.

I just don't believe in any universe that he is more valuable to this team than JR Smith is. It's not even close.

As I said before. I think Zen Master leaked this so he could gauge JRs/Shumps/Larkins value and see what he could get. I don't think he's in a rush to get rid of one of them.

In comment 11775010 kmed said:

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we will see. I'd guess that Shump has more value to Phil Jackson than you are giving him credit for. If there was a demand for JR, he'd be traded already, but I'd bet most teams don't want anything to do with him as of now.

Couldn't he also guess that JR Smith has more value to Phil Jackson than you are giving him credit for?

loser that should never have a big role on a good team. JR has much more talent than Shump, but it's not that simple.

But what has he done this past season to show that it was the injury that held him back? He was worse this season than he was when he got back from surgery. That should speak volumes.

Also, JR Smith looked pretty good during the tail end of this season.

I do know that you need to be a really good 3Pt shooter. Not sure he can be that. Maybe he can. His lack of a handle would be ok if the knicks have someone else to bring the ball up the floor.

You don't need to be a 10 assist guy to succeed as a point in the triangle (just look at his coach) but you do need to see the floor and make the right pass. I just don't see that from Shump.

In my mind, you can't have him play the point. So they need to move Smith or Shump and my personal preference is Smith because I just can't imagine counting on the guy and he clears space for next year. And I also don't want to only have Smith or THJ to guard scoring 2 guards.

and set up the offense with an easy pass. He doesn't need to be a drive and dish sort of guy, he just needs to get the ball inside if he can and then spread the floor. It might not work if they can sag off of him.

In comment 11775025 kmed said:

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loser that should never have a big role on a good team. JR has much more talent than Shump, but it's not that simple.

Sure, it's not that simple when we're just talking about talent. But it's very simple when you gauge how productive each guy has been while on the Knicks. It's not close.

I just think Shumpert is still getting hometown bias. I remember last year there were fools who didn't want to give up Iman fucking Shumpert for Rondo.

need to move someone or risk hurting everyones value. There are not enough minutes to go around, even if you want to give the 3 SG's the 10-15 minutes of backup SF. Im on the record as thinking that shump's value is only going to go down, but that is 100% true if he doesnt play. I dont think either shump or JR have much value which is why they are both on the team. I expect them to both be on the team at the start of camp just because i dont think PHil will give them away. Not sure how it will work, but thats my guess.

was just so disappointing/bad last year. The only reason he wasnt the biggest disappointed was because Felton was on the team.

were all quite disappointing. Of course the only reason Bargnani isn't on that list is because everyone knows he sucks.

deserves to be on that list too. He was a major reason we sucked early in the year. He was much better after he was benched and decided to start caring.

with claiming Shumpert will have more value in the triangle is... why would Phil be shopping him if he felt that were the case?

in the triangle? If you are referrign to anything I've said, and I've never come close to saying that, all I have said is that his value will go up because last year was a clusterf*ck. I believe JR's value will go up too for the same reasons, but only one of their values CAN go up because there aren't enough minutes for the both of them.

I was mostly commenting on Beer Fridge's comment (no knock at all). Just saying if Phil thought he could be a solid triangle PG I really doubt he'd be shopping him.

You don't need to be a 10 assist guy to succeed as a point in the triangle (just look at his coach) but you do need to see the floor and make the right pass. I just don't see that from Shump.

there in the past, so it's not out of the realm of possibility, especially with the Triangle somewhat de-emphasizing the position. I still don't think it's a great idea.

And I'd say Phil probably has made offers where he'd part with Smith or Shump depending on who might want whom. I'd still rather he move Smith because who needs that BS.

I think Shump can handle the duties except for the whole space the floor out, but then again, how is that different as a 2 guard in the triangle? Shumps handle isn't terrible by any stretch, at least not in this sort of offense. His handle is well below par if he needs to beat his guy off the dribble, but that's not needed in this offense. He can bring the ball up and set up the offense in the triangle, but then we wouldn't have the minutes for Larkin which is no different than the glut at the 2.

argue he's below average overall with the ball in his hand for a 1/2. Passing + ballhanding+ decision making = below average vs. other 1/2's in my view.

but in the triangle where he doesn't need to create, he could pass for short spurts I guess.

Turner a Celtic

and even Teague look like whiffed opportunities.

And I've given up on Evan Turner being anything more than a stat stuffer. He is a minus on both ends of the floor. Glad he's with the Celtics.

we would not be in such a great cap situation next year and beyond. Unfortunately, while both talent upgrades, neither really fits what we need to be doing, IMO.

I don't believe Shump for Faried was ever an option.