you think he's Ray Allen (obviously Ray Allen does more than just shoot), how many "shooters" would you deem as untouchable? Gotta learn to do more than just knock down the 3 ball and be a solid finisher.
advising them doesn't mean everything he said was taken as the final decision. We also don't know what happened in the negotiations, for all we know the Knicks simply didn't get what they asked for, not "we don't want to trade him". Roster makeup doesn't have to mean adding more 2 guards. It can mean more impressed with THJr., less impressed with Shumpert, wanting a roster spot for X. I think it's pretty safe to suggest the Knicks have shopped Shumpert in the past and I believe they likely are willing to deal him.
Phil was hired like 3 weeks after the deadline. Most reasonable people would agree Phil had a ton of sway over what they were doing leading up to that. And nobody said Shump ever was or is untouchable. Obviously if somebody blew them away with an offer he'd be gone a long time ago. But I do think there's a guys who Phil would move in heartbeat (Amare, Bargs, JR) and guys who he sees as potentially part of the future.
I think Phil Jackson is just leaking this to see what he could get around the league for these guys. I'm not sure if he's 100% sold on getting rid of these guys if he won't get enough. Wishful thinking on my part, maybe.
is "untouchable" in the sense they feel he's an asset who is GOING to develop and thus become a better asset both on the court and in negotiations. I don't think they feel that way about the other two, although I do think Larkin has more value in the Knicks eyes right now than Shumpert does.
I don't like about Shumpert is he's shown zero growth as a player. I get that he's missed time but where has his game evolved for the positive? The only hope is that Woodson's tough handling of him hurt his confidence a bit, otherwise other than being a former 1st rounder who at times is a plus defender there isn't a whole lot to point to and go "well he's improved in x area".
isnt really "untouchable". Im sure he is just the one that they are least likely to move and wont be moving him unless they are getting a great player back. Which is what they should be doing, he is cost controlled with a ton of upside.
you think he's Ray Allen (obviously Ray Allen does more than just shoot), how many "shooters" would you deem as untouchable? Gotta learn to do more than just knock down the 3 ball and be a solid finisher.
Fair point. Also, Hardaway has a bit more trouble creating his shot, whereas JR is quite good at it. But JR is a way better sharpshooter.
I said to Eric privately, what is encouraging about THjr is he's a talented player who is humble and seemingly realizes he needs to be more well rounded. I get the opposite impression from Shumpert. I get the feeling he thinks he is a better player than he is and that he's simply been slighted.
point. He should be the one to go. His D has regressed and his offense has been horrible. He is an average at best shooter and all he does is take jump shots. Sure he can fill a role on a team, but with JR/THJR we just dont need him. Yes he is the best guard defender we have, but the D i have seen from him does not make me think he should play over either JR or THJR.
it just always seems to be some excuse. Its the injury, its playing small forward, its the coach, blah blah blah. As ive said i dont want to give him up for nothing, but if you can get a first for him id make the move. Odds are he wont be a knick after this year anyway. Either he plays like crap again and we dont want him or he plays ok and some team gives him some dumb like 3/18 type deal which would be a huge overpay.
present day defense is absolutely overrated. As a rookie (maybe the knee is the issue, maybe he's not as hungry... being a big time defensive wing takes a special kind of mental effort vs. being a scorer) he showed flashes of defensive dominance but people talk about him like he's Bruce Bowen/Tony Allen good and he simply is not/hasn't been that in quite a while.
he was taught at a young age professionalism and working every day to get better...I remember when he got drafted they talked about how hard Tim Hardaway SR was on him in high school to get him away from being entitled to what he has and feeling like he didnt have to work for it..He grew up in an NBA family so he knows what it takes...
I also could see Prigs being moved...i really dont see him as a fit in th triangle...he is not going to cut through and hit back door lay ups and things like that...at this point he is who he is...I think you can get away with JR or one of the SGs playing spot minutes as the 3rd point..
THJr. has done a good amount of driving to the rim
This Summer League. He doesn't look like Tony Parker at the rim, but at least he's capable of getting there and making something happen.
His bread and butter will always be his jump shot, but if he can incorporate any kind of driving to the paint into his offensive game then that would be huge for him and the Knicks.
rebounding and creativity from THJR as well. He averaged 5 rebounds as a senior in college. I'd like to see more of that. I do like his skills as a scorer, but I want to see more from the other parts of his game.
issue moving forward. He looks like a very good shooter and has shown the ability to get into the lane and also to finish well on breaks, but he has to be able to do a bit more of the other things. Rebounds and assists have to go up at least a bit, he basically didnt give you anything except scoring. Now there isnt a ton wrong with that, but if you want to be a very good player you can just score (unless you are a top 10 type scorer which im sure none of us think he is).
And even in the games where he played well offensively it was because he was hitting his threes. He is no where near a good enough shooter to live and die with the 3 and that is pretty much what he does. Almost any game that he has put up a strong point total is because he happened to shoot the ball well that game from 3.
on what we saw is making a mistake. It's been well documented to this point that there was no defensive system and everyone was on a different page. Woodson routinely played Shump at the 3 despite his strength being that he defends guards better than anyone on the roster. I'm not suggesting that he's some untradable asset, but I am refuting what most on bbi keep saying. Shump's value is way too low and he's much better than what we saw last year. He's the only one that can make a difference on defense and he's proven that his defensive skills are disruptive.
what are his offensive strengths? Below average shooter and finisher, below average handle for a 1/2 and nondescript passer (I'd argue below average given his pattern of putting his head down, driving and then getting caught in no man's land).
I just find it weird that you see it that way for Shump
Not a good ball handler(not terrible, but not good enough to play the 1. Maybe in the triangle he can though). Not a great shooter, but has shown some flashes of touch. Sort of depressing that he's such a bad finisher because he's extremely athletic and gets to the rim easily, just can't finish.
RE: I just find it weird that you see it that way for Shump
It's funny, in my "real life" circles, I'm not considered a massive Shump fan. My brother is a massive Shump fan and he would argue that he's got Wade potential all the time. I'd always argue that he's nuts because Shump has limited offensive game. I don't remember reading that on bbi though.
Its a comforting feeling to believe that Jackson will not rush into
still think that one game/stretch in a game Wade had vs. the Knicks a few years ago was one of the most ridiculously dominant things I've ever seen in the NBA.
I don't even understand what "being a loser" means
Iman Shumpert has gotten progressively worse every single season. It's not that he's improved slightly, or just plateaued. He's gotten worse as a basketball player.
If we're going to blame this on his psyche, than he's more of a "loser" than JR Smith ever was. At least JR Smith will try and play through his rough stretches. Iman Shumpert refused to do anything offensively.
Iman Shumpert's FG% was .378 with 26.5 minutes per game. That is beyond awful.
He's young, it's to be expected. Also, saying Iman has gotten progressively worse is disingenuous. He had a major knee injury that destroyed his 2nd season and had a terrible 3rd season. He was awesome as a rookie, dominated in the playoffs(defensively) and then was again very good in the playoffs 2 years ago after coming back quickly from the ACL. Last year was a disaster.
JR Smith is a loser and because you are a huge fan, you don't want to ackowledge that. Whenever you need to count on him, he comes up small. He's been in the NBA for a long time now and he's proven over and over again that he's unreliable.
suggesting JR tried playing through his rough stretches is a joke. He barely tried for half the season last year. He's a head case and it effected his effort which is something that we never saw from Shump. I hate guys that won't try because they are upset.
JR Smith's defense is lightyears ahead of Iman's offense, but that's not even doing JR Smith justice. Last year, there was no real gap between either of their defenses.
Nonetheless, Iman Shumpert has shown terrific on ball defense. But that's half the battle, he's still a piss poor off ball defender. So we're keeping a guy that has zero offensive game whatsoever, below average off ball defending, but occasional terrific on ball defender over JR Smith? No thanks.
or finishing. I do think he has a nice stroke and could become a decent enough shooter, but he will never be a good offensive player. If he can be adequate though, that works with his defensive tenacity. I wonder if he can play the 1 in the triangle or if defenses would just sag off of him because he can't shoot?
But doesn't fly for JR. Yeah, Iman's was more severe...there's no doubt about that. But it's not even acknowledged that JR Smith had surgery done in the offseason.
we will see. I'd guess that Shump has more value to Phil Jackson than you are giving him credit for. If there was a demand for JR, he'd be traded already, but I'd bet most teams don't want anything to do with him as of now.
you are kidding right?? Iman missed most of the season 2 years ago. There's no excuse. When you aren't on the floor, you shouldn't be considered regressing. He came back in like 6 months from ACL reconstruction and it def took him some time to get into the swing of things. By the playoffs, he was back to being Iman. You are the one who says he got progressively worse every year. So when a guy is hurt and not playing, he should be considered worse? Got it.
I just don't believe in any universe that he is more valuable to this team than JR Smith is. It's not even close.
As I said before. I think Zen Master leaked this so he could gauge JRs/Shumps/Larkins value and see what he could get. I don't think he's in a rush to get rid of one of them.
we will see. I'd guess that Shump has more value to Phil Jackson than you are giving him credit for. If there was a demand for JR, he'd be traded already, but I'd bet most teams don't want anything to do with him as of now.
Couldn't he also guess that JR Smith has more value to Phil Jackson than you are giving him credit for?
I am a JR hater, but mostly because I think he's a
Phil was hired like 3 weeks after the deadline. Most reasonable people would agree Phil had a ton of sway over what they were doing leading up to that. And nobody said Shump ever was or is untouchable. Obviously if somebody blew them away with an offer he'd be gone a long time ago. But I do think there's a guys who Phil would move in heartbeat (Amare, Bargs, JR) and guys who he sees as potentially part of the future.
Fair point. Also, Hardaway has a bit more trouble creating his shot, whereas JR is quite good at it. But JR is a way better sharpshooter.
I also could see Prigs being moved...i really dont see him as a fit in th triangle...he is not going to cut through and hit back door lay ups and things like that...at this point he is who he is...I think you can get away with JR or one of the SGs playing spot minutes as the 3rd point..
His bread and butter will always be his jump shot, but if he can incorporate any kind of driving to the paint into his offensive game then that would be huge for him and the Knicks.
and he takes to many gambles on defense which leads to him getting beat off the dribble...
Makes you think they are close to a deal to send out a guard or 2 orit tells you waht Phil thinks of Tyler...
the biggest problem was that we didnt play him enough in those series.
literally every time he came in the game we went on runs and he made spectacular offensive and defensive plays
he even hit clutch 3s
last year there was a pox on this team and i can give him a pass.
i think its worth seeing if he can be that player again under phil and fish
And even in the games where he played well offensively it was because he was hitting his threes. He is no where near a good enough shooter to live and die with the 3 and that is pretty much what he does. Almost any game that he has put up a strong point total is because he happened to shoot the ball well that game from 3.
then he gets a bit revved up and gets some open 3s.
last year woodsen abandoned any pretense of a defense.
its not hard to imagine a defensive guy losing motivation and his offense suffering as a result
Again. JR has a long history of being a loser with 2 years ago being the aberration.
If we're going to blame this on his psyche, than he's more of a "loser" than JR Smith ever was. At least JR Smith will try and play through his rough stretches. Iman Shumpert refused to do anything offensively.
Iman Shumpert's FG% was .378 with 26.5 minutes per game. That is beyond awful.
JR Smith is a loser and because you are a huge fan, you don't want to ackowledge that. Whenever you need to count on him, he comes up small. He's been in the NBA for a long time now and he's proven over and over again that he's unreliable.
Nonetheless, Iman Shumpert has shown terrific on ball defense. But that's half the battle, he's still a piss poor off ball defender. So we're keeping a guy that has zero offensive game whatsoever, below average off ball defending, but occasional terrific on ball defender over JR Smith? No thanks.
As I said before. I think Zen Master leaked this so he could gauge JRs/Shumps/Larkins value and see what he could get. I don't think he's in a rush to get rid of one of them.
Couldn't he also guess that JR Smith has more value to Phil Jackson than you are giving him credit for?