NFT: 13 IDF soldiers from the Golani Brigade dead.

Prayers for your family, Lou.

And some people here don't fucking get it? Israel has the power to turn the whole of fucking Gaza into rubble, a la the Allies in WWII and Dresden.

But we don't. We send leaflets, tell the enemy our plan, and risk our best boys by playing war "humanely" as no army in history has ever done before.

Now O'Bama is "concerned about human casualties" and sending Kerry here to "broker a cease fire" with the terrorists.

Fuck that...

And prayers sent your way Lou

Lou-
Horrible to hear about agonizing news like that. Best of luck


In comment 11774091 BlueLou said:

Quote:

And some people here don't fucking get it? Israel has the power to turn the whole of fucking Gaza into rubble, a la the Allies in WWII and Dresden. But we don't. We send leaflets, tell the enemy our plan, and risk our best boys by playing war "humanely" as no army in history has ever done before. Now O'Bama is "concerned about human casualties" and sending Kerry here to "broker a cease fire" with the terrorists. Fuck that...

Why can't this schmuck just flat out have our backs?

Afraid of what the US Pals the Saudis might think? Still need that oil...
Link - ( New Window )

. I along with many other are wishing you the best. And I agree that the place should be turned to rubble. You can't fight a war humanely with good results for the good guys. Good luck.

We pray daily for our soldiers and for all those caught up in this (on both sides) that would rather be doing something else than fighting a war.

And damn those to hell who are fomenting the situation rather than working towards a peaceful reconciliation to two independent states.

.

In comment 11774110 Kyle said:

Quote:

.

And they have only Hamas to blame for their deaths.

There are more appropriate places to discuss world events than a football forum that expressly forbids political threads.

In comment 11774124 iMatt said:

Quote:

There are more appropriate places to discuss world events than a football forum that expressly forbids political threads.

I know man, because it took a Herculean amount of self-control to avoid clicking on the thread and tossing in your two cents. Oh wait.

It's the living on both sides that try to justify killing and make sense of war.

And I'm not saying they shouldn't. One does what one must in order to survive and preserve self, family, community, country and values.

I'll keep you and yours in my prayers.

Yep. Right on.

under the guise of something that most people support( including me in this case) ?

In comment 11774134 Headhunter said:

Quote:

under the guise of something that most people support( including me in this case) ?

Has to cut across partisan lines. Plus most of us like Lou. As a general rule though foreign affairs threads have survived so long as they don't degenerate into dung-tossing about American politics.

cool!

foreign affairs have usually been permissible, except when they turn into a pissing contest about American politics. People have personal involvement or unique expertise and Eric and the mods seem to be generally content to leave them up unless they get out of hand.

Plus, hoping the rest of you don't turn this into one of "those" threads on a day when we'll actually have football to discus.

Dismantle the infrastructure on Hamas, set them back over a decade. Strange how the Arab countries aren't united in attacking Israel. I think some of them feel the way I do

In comment 11774137 Headhunter said:

Quote:

cool!

Honestly?

is that you can create threads and post on topics like Unions, Gun Control, ACA, etc but you cant make brazen attacks. Then you have social topics like child rearing or vaccinations for example, where its not too difficult to guess which side of the political spectrum posters fall on. Mods keep an eye on things and its nothing like the battlefield it was here a few years ago.

for your family Lou. Let us know how it goes.

In comment 11774149 Headhunter said:

Quote:

Dismantle the infrastructure on Hamas, set them back over a decade. Strange how the Arab countries aren't united in attacking Israel. I think some of them feel the way I do

They haven't been united to do so in forty years. They want to placate their masses so they'll cheerlead the insurgents, but they don't have a reasonable prospect of success and they don't want to shoulder the cost of another failure. A lot of their defense budgets have flagged over the past few decades too, and a lot of their indifference has to do with their disagreements and frustration with Palestinian leadership.

I didn't mean militarily, I meant in condemnation

In comment 11774118 Milton said:

Quote:

In comment 11774110 Kyle said: Quote: . And they have only Hamas to blame for their deaths.

They elected Hamas. At the very least, they tolerate their presence. At some point, people have to assume responsibility for what happens on their own territory, which it now has been for years.

In comment 11774149 Headhunter said:

Quote:

Dismantle the infrastructure on Hamas, set them back over a decade. Strange how the Arab countries aren't united in attacking Israel. I think some of them feel the way I do

Also the Muslim Brotherhood is no longer in charge in Egypt and al-Sisi has a very strained relationship with Hamas. In fact the Hamas Covenant blasts Egypt for making peace with Israel.

In comment 11774094 BlueLou said:

Quote:

Why can't this schmuck just flat out have our backs? Afraid of what the US Pals the Saudis might think? Still need that oil... Link - ( New Window )

I generally come down on Israel's side but you're talking about the U.S. like we owe you something - in addition to the billions in aid and. We're also a big part of the reason that the Saudis stop well short or doing anything that realistically threatens Israel.

In comment 11774181 RB^2 said:

Quote:

In comment 11774094 BlueLou said: Quote: Why can't this schmuck just flat out have our backs? Afraid of what the US Pals the Saudis might think? Still need that oil... Link - ( New Window ) I generally come down on Israel's side but you're talking about the U.S. like we owe you something - in addition to the billions in aid and. We're also a big part of the reason that the Saudis stop well short or doing anything that realistically threatens Israel.

Isn't Hamas Shiite? I know Hezbollah is (and supported by Iran). I imagine that's also got something to do with Saudi's reluctance to get involved.

Chest thumping about military might and the ability to crush the Palestinians on one hand and then bemoaning US support is at its best ignorant and its worst something much more insulting. I can't imagine the fear and anxiety of living through an active war zone, but anger that the US won't provide geopolitical cover for an all-out assault is a little weak. The US has no reason, logical incentive or explicit obligation to push for anything more than a de-escalation. The US and co. are and rightly so are navigating all of this gingerly while trying to coax a palatable nuclear deal out of Tehran. Which of course is orders of magnitude more important for the long term safety of the region.

who wants a fair and balanced view of both sides issues and how the Obama Administration, and specifically John Kerry tried to resolve this issue needs to read this article from the New Republican - simply fantastic journaolism
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died - ( New Window )

In comment 11774194 GIANTSr01 said:

Quote:

In comment 11774181 RB^2 said: Quote: In comment 11774094 BlueLou said: Quote: Why can't this schmuck just flat out have our backs? Afraid of what the US Pals the Saudis might think? Still need that oil... Link - ( New Window ) I generally come down on Israel's side but you're talking about the U.S. like we owe you something - in addition to the billions in aid and. We're also a big part of the reason that the Saudis stop well short or doing anything that realistically threatens Israel. Isn't Hamas Shiite? I know Hezbollah is (and supported by Iran). I imagine that's also got something to do with Saudi's reluctance to get involved.

To my knowledge, Hamas is Sunni but has historically been funded by both Iran and the Saudis as Hamas appears to be useful to both.

Ideology matters most at the street level. The higher up you go, especially at the level where serious funding capabilities exist, the less it matters. You'll notice the same is true in our politics - without the rockets, suicide bombers and general violence.

The overwhelming majority of Palestian Arabs are Sunni. As RB notes, the Iranians supply them anyway because chaos and damage to Israel is more important to them than religious correctness at this point. Someday, if their main enemy Israel is destroyed, they can settle accounts with the heretics. Until then, they're plenty willing to use them.

I began saying Kaddish daily last week.

doesn't stop Hamas. They just use the time to build up again. If I was Netanyahu, I wouldn't listen to Kerry any longer.

In comment 11774213 CMicks3110 said:

Quote:

who wants a fair and balanced view of both sides issues and how the Obama Administration, and specifically John Kerry tried to resolve this issue needs to read this article from the New Republican - simply fantastic journaolism http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died - ( New Window )

There is nothing balanced about that piece. It's the same claptrap about forward-thinking Palestinian leadership trying to pull their populace toward peace while intransigent Israeli leadership says no that's been trotted out since before Arafat entered middle age.

unless drastic actions are taken. You can't fight a restrained, humane war against Islamic fundamentalism because the Islamic fundamentalists are on another plane of reprehensible crazy and they are an abomination to a peaceful religion. Unfortunately, even when Israel only takes half measures, it plays into Hamas's hands to garner sympathy for turning their own women and children into human shields.

I wish Israel could get away with winning by targeted airstrikes alone, but it seems as if only a ground invasion and taking out Hamas supporters one by one and taking their arms will have any effect.

Seriously, how much support do you want??..I think when your closest ally is supporting your country with money, arms, technology, etc..you might be a little grateful..

Like said above, it;s almost like a sense of entitlement..

that there is no moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas, between an entity that sacrifices its soldiers to avoid civilian casualties and one that makes civilian casualties its method of operation, is not really as unconscionable as some of you suppose.

"Fuck that" So, you're against a cease fire?

and perhaps unfair, but I can't help tie in this situation with the other thread about what is happening in Afghanistan with a planned honor killing for a ten year-old girl who was raped by a mullah.

Legitimate question: is there a country on Earth that is ruled by Islamic fundamentalism that has any sort of decent human rights record or free society?

Again, I could be off-base, but this idea that the reason Palestinians are oppressed is because of Israel (who just picked an Arab Muslim as the head of the Emergency Medicine at the top hospital in Israel),and that if Israel didn't exist that Hamas would rule them in peace, liberty, and prosperity seems absolutely crazy to me.

In comment 11774312 Dunedin81 said:

Quote:

that there is no moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas, between an entity that sacrifices its soldiers to avoid civilian casualties and one that makes civilian casualties its method of operation, is not really as unconscionable as some of you suppose.

At risk of being obtuse, there is an easily drawn link between our current leadership's sense of values and the high-theory relativism discussed on the other thread.

In comment 11774149 Headhunter said:

Quote:

Dismantle the infrastructure on Hamas, set them back over a decade. Strange how the Arab countries aren't united in attacking Israel. I think some of them feel the way I do

Considering Egypt hates Hamas just as much as Israel does, I would say that some do surprisingly

of Netanyahu's spokesman by a Brit. You'll have to scroll down to the second interview.
Gaza - ( New Window )

just gives more time for Hamas to get weapons from Iran. Or, the UN, who gave them back the bombs they found in the school. How nice of them.

In comment 11774312 Dunedin81 said:

Quote:

that there is no moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas, between an entity that sacrifices its soldiers to avoid civilian casualties and one that makes civilian casualties its method of operation, is not really as unconscionable as some of you suppose.

I'm sorry but what the fuck man. Kerry was all over TV denouncing Hamas for their actions and their tactics. He used pretty clear language about how they were responsible for this battle and how the US supported Israeli. I'm sorry guys but what did you hear from the administration that I am missing?

Unless you believe that attempting to negotiate a peace agreement is not having Israeli's back, I don't get it...

P.S. My thoughts and prayers to the families who are suffered the lost of a love one.

Quote:

This is extremely painful now, because I have a nephew who's a commander in the Golani brigade. He's a great young man, very very smart (planning med school after Army), very funny, very good looking (as if that fucking matters). I often tease his older sister, who's an absolute dish,

ewwww

Very high ick factor on that one.

In order to be a "dish" in Lou's book, you have to be like the hottest girl in the world. Not even unflabby Kate Upton is a dish in Lou's book

was simply providing details about how much he treasured his kin and why. I think he should get a pass on his wording until he hears what happen one way or another

In comment 11774503 Semipro Lineman said:

Quote:

was simply providing details about how much he treasured his kin and why. I think he should get a pass on his wording until he hears what happen one way or another

Who's the poster who was cousins with Pia Toscano?

this sort of thing humane
Israel-Gaza conflict: Deadly flechette shells 'used by Israeli military in Gaza Strip’ - ( New Window )

If the Israeli army wanted to destroy the tunnels leading into Israel, couldn't they just enter through the Israeli end and blow them up that way?

I really feel bad for the people of Israel and Gaza. I'll never get why Israel and Gaza don't just align themselves and kick out Hamas. Kicking out Hamas, absorbing Gaza, offering its people citizenship and giving statehood to the West Bank seems like a good outcome assuming you're dealing with reasonable parties. Any Palestinian state is likely to be a complete basket case even (or especially) if Israel throws them a ton of money but it become a much cleaner situation to manage.

In comment 11774488 Semipro Lineman said:

Quote:

In comment 11774312 Dunedin81 said: Quote: that there is no moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas, between an entity that sacrifices its soldiers to avoid civilian casualties and one that makes civilian casualties its method of operation, is not really as unconscionable as some of you suppose. I'm sorry but what the fuck man. Kerry was all over TV denouncing Hamas for their actions and their tactics. He used pretty clear language about how they were responsible for this battle and how the US supported Israeli. I'm sorry guys but what did you hear from the administration that I am missing? Unless you believe that attempting to negotiate a peace agreement is not having Israeli's back, I don't get it... P.S. My thoughts and prayers to the families who are suffered the lost of a love one.

I don't have much of a dog in this fight, but I just noticed that Kerry acidentally went off script and voiced how he really felt when he thought he was off the air. Link below.
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 11774539 RB^2 said:

Quote:

If the Israeli army wanted to destroy the tunnels leading into Israel, couldn't they just enter through the Israeli end and blow them up that way? I really feel bad for the people of Israel and Gaza. I'll never get why Israel and Gaza don't just align themselves and kick out Hamas. Kicking out Hamas, absorbing Gaza, offering its people citizenship and giving statehood to the West Bank seems like a good outcome assuming you're dealing with reasonable parties. Any Palestinian state is likely to be a complete basket case even (or especially) if Israel throws them a ton of money but it become a much cleaner situation to manage.

My understanding is that the tunnels aren't just used to enter Israel. A lot of the tunnels are for moving rockets around undetected within Gaza.

In comment 11774539 RB^2 said:

Quote:

If the Israeli army wanted to destroy the tunnels leading into Israel, couldn't they just enter through the Israeli end and blow them up that way? I really feel bad for the people of Israel and Gaza. I'll never get why Israel and Gaza don't just align themselves and kick out Hamas. Kicking out Hamas, absorbing Gaza, offering its people citizenship and giving statehood to the West Bank seems like a good outcome assuming you're dealing with reasonable parties. Any Palestinian state is likely to be a complete basket case even (or especially) if Israel throws them a ton of money but it become a much cleaner situation to manage.

Because I'm assuming some tunnels have yet to be completed

In comment 11774539 RB^2 said:

Quote:

If the Israeli army wanted to destroy the tunnels leading into Israel, couldn't they just enter through the Israeli end and blow them up that way? I really feel bad for the people of Israel and Gaza. I'll never get why Israel and Gaza don't just align themselves and kick out Hamas. Kicking out Hamas, absorbing Gaza, offering its people citizenship and giving statehood to the West Bank seems like a good outcome assuming you're dealing with reasonable parties. Any Palestinian state is likely to be a complete basket case even (or especially) if Israel throws them a ton of money but it become a much cleaner situation to manage.

Given that Palestinians elected Hamas and last I checked the polls, the majority of Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel as a right to exist, I doubt they align with Israel to boot Hamas any time soon.

So you are assuming that it is as easy to find the tunnels from the much larger territory the cover in Israel as it is from Gaza? Do you really think the Israelis would have let 10 members of Hamas infiltrate through the tunnels today before killing them, if they knew where all the tunnels were?

And what about the tunnels that are being used to hide weapons rather than reach Israel? Do you find those from the Israeli side as well?

In comment 11774532 Giantology said:

Quote:

this sort of thing humane Israel-Gaza conflict: Deadly flechette shells 'used by Israeli military in Gaza Strip’ - ( New Window )

The "Palestinian Centre for Human Rights"? Sounds like a completely reliable source of information to me!

In comment 11774602 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 11774532 Giantology said: Quote: this sort of thing humane Israel-Gaza conflict: Deadly flechette shells 'used by Israeli military in Gaza Strip’ - ( New Window ) The "Palestinian Centre for Human Rights"? Sounds like a completely reliable source of information to me!

Not like Israel hasn't used them before, so of course because the "enemy" is reporting this, it's totally unreliable information. My bad!

In comment 11774539 RB^2 said:

Quote:

If the Israeli army wanted to destroy the tunnels leading into Israel, couldn't they just enter through the Israeli end and blow them up that way?

you're smarter than this. the guys here with military experience can probably give you more insight than i could, but entering enemy-constructed tunnels, without any meaningful means of escape or navigation, and when those enemies are known for rigging things with explosives...not an intelligent military strategy, to put it mildly.

In comment 11774623 Giantology said:

Quote:

Not like Israel hasn't used them before, so of course because the "enemy" is reporting this, it's totally unreliable information. My bad!

And the Palestinian Arabs don't have an extremely long track record of bullshit propaganda either, right?

In comment 11774532 Giantology said:

Quote:

this sort of thing humane Israel-Gaza conflict: Deadly flechette shells 'used by Israeli military in Gaza Strip’ - ( New Window )

gee, you know what else carries a particularly high danger of harming civilians?

firing rockets from the top of their apartment building and then preventing them from leaving when the IDF targets the building in response.

So if Israel's record on attempting to avoid civilian casualties goes down from 100 times as good as that of Hamas, to only 90 times as good, you would then throw them under the bus?

Oh.

but it will not end the conflict by any means. It will go on for centuries, no matter what.

As much as I despise the loss of life, I've come to think Israel's handling it pretty well.

In comment 11774596 PaulBlakeTSU said:

Quote:

In comment 11774539 RB^2 said: Quote: If the Israeli army wanted to destroy the tunnels leading into Israel, couldn't they just enter through the Israeli end and blow them up that way? I really feel bad for the people of Israel and Gaza. I'll never get why Israel and Gaza don't just align themselves and kick out Hamas. Kicking out Hamas, absorbing Gaza, offering its people citizenship and giving statehood to the West Bank seems like a good outcome assuming you're dealing with reasonable parties. Any Palestinian state is likely to be a complete basket case even (or especially) if Israel throws them a ton of money but it become a much cleaner situation to manage. Given that Palestinians elected Hamas and last I checked the polls, the majority of Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel as a right to exist, I doubt they align with Israel to boot Hamas any time soon.

Then be it on their heads, IMO.

If Israel is looking for an explicit OK from the US to obliterate the Palestinians it's never happening.

As is repeated anecdotally here and can be echoed by virtually anyone who knows folks on both sides of the border in the region, the vast majority of Palestinians aren't fundamentalists. They are underemployed, poor and totally played as pawns by forces that reach much further than Hamas. They made the colossal mistake of electing and aligning with the most powerful and intimidating element among them, a decision they pay for everyday. Not the first time a subjugated population made a bad decision in terms of leadership and no reason to justify slaughtering them.

As is always the case desperation leads to radicalism, and the answer is not more violence.

after they are 100% destroyed, imo.

who singlehandedly is turning me off from the Israeli cause from his righteous bullshit. These sympathy grabs are grating nonsense and yet he whines about the US's circumspect consideration of just how important this strip of Levantine waste is in the grand scheme of things, as if Israeli's continued existence isn't already due to the continued munificence of the US.
YAY MISSILES KILLING KIDS! More fun than bulldozers! - ( New Window )

In comment 11774646 christian said:

Quote:

If Israel is looking for an explicit OK from the US to obliterate the Palestinians it's never happening. As is repeated anecdotally here and can be echoed by virtually anyone who knows folks on both sides of the border in the region, the vast majority of Palestinians aren't fundamentalists. They are underemployed, poor and totally played as pawns by forces that reach much further than Hamas. They made the colossal mistake of electing and aligning with the most powerful and intimidating element among them, a decision they pay for everyday. Not the first time a subjugated population made a bad decision in terms of leadership and no reason to justify slaughtering them. As is always the case desperation leads to radicalism, and the answer is not more violence.

If Israel behaved as its critics would have had them behave at virtually any point during its history it would have ceased to exist. I respect your intellect and I don't mean to be dismissive, but sometimes "turn the other cheek" is not an effective means of conducting geopolitics.

based on what BBI posters annoy you?

And comes through it all OK

The president of my company has 3 family members currently serving in the Israeli military - 2 are in the Navy and serving at sea right now, but one of his nephews is on the front lines in Gaza as well

He's a wreck today. Scary times in a scary part of the world.

In comment 11774091 BlueLou said:

Quote:

And some people here don't fucking get it? Israel has the power to turn the whole of fucking Gaza into rubble, a la the Allies in WWII and Dresden. But we don't. We send leaflets, tell the enemy our plan, and risk our best boys by playing war "humanely" as no army in history has ever done before. Now O'Bama is "concerned about human casualties" and sending Kerry here to "broker a cease fire" with the terrorists. Fuck that...

A lack of perspective and appreciate for nuance is rather a hallmark of RW Israeli factions in Likud and their cheerleaders in Congress. I'm sure carpet bombing Gaza like it's 1945 would do much to advance Israel's interests. Certainly a way to achieve what you advocate an hour later:

Quote:

And damn those to hell who are fomenting the situation rather than working towards a peaceful reconciliation to two independent states

To address your bizarre non-sequitur at 6:10, though...If the US didn't have cheap energy (in part made possible by so much ME oil) to fillip our economy, our ongoing magnanimity toward your military budget might not be so ongoing.

Full sympathy for what you deal with in Gaza. Hamas and Islamic fundies in general are brutal and a massive barrier to peace & stability. But every American politician sucks your dick til it's dry, oftentimes far more than we should so I echo the denunciation of the sense of entitlement. Read between the lines for God's sake. There's a wider audience for "concerned about casualties" than just Hamas.

In comment 11774671 buford said:

Quote:

based on what BBI posters annoy you?

Win.

In comment 11774665 Nitro said:

Quote:

who singlehandedly is turning me off from the Israeli cause from his righteous bullshit. These sympathy grabs are grating nonsense and yet he whines about the US's circumspect consideration of just how important this strip of Levantine waste is in the grand scheme of things, as if Israeli's continued existence isn't already due to the continued munificence of the US. YAY MISSILES KILLING KIDS! More fun than bulldozers! - ( New Window )

i agree he's a weirdo, and this is coming from a fellow Israeli Jew. i think the more important question is: how are the grapes doing and how was his recent experience at the Israel Wine Institute? inquiring minds want to know.

and sadly i also agree with buford - you're smarter than to be turned off of anything by what you read on BBI.

but apparently seen 2 of you and a retard missed it, that was poor writing on my end.

Hope that dish of a niece is okay.

.

but that means it had some truth to it.

Bottom line for me is, the Palestinians or Hamas could stop this anytime they want. Israel is not interested in attacking them, just defending itself.

But that isn't what Hamas wants. They, the Palestinians, Iran and others want Israel wiped off the map. They have said so publicly. They also chant 'Death to the US' at times.

To ask Israel to use more restraint than they do use without anyone asking them to, is to ask them to assist in their own suicide. Any ally should be unequivocally behind Israel and their attempts to stop the madness.

Hamas will never honor a ceasefire. They will never stop plotting and attempting to attack Israel and its people. How many times does this have to be shown to be true for people to understand this? Nobody, least of all Israel, want to see civilian casualties in Gaza. But only one entity can stop it. Hamas.

because i'm hoping perhaps someone has an answer who may have missed it:

Is there a country on Earth that is ruled by Islamic fundamentalism that has any sort of decent human rights record or free society?

Again, I could be off-base, but this idea that the reason Palestinians are oppressed is because of Israel (who just picked an Arab Muslim as the head of the Emergency Medicine at the top hospital in Israel),and that if Israel didn't exist that Hamas would rule them in peace, liberty, and prosperity seems absolutely crazy to me, so I'm hoping someone could enlighten me on the positive and free lives people under Islamic fundamental regimes are living around the world.

Quote:

Is there a country on Earth that is ruled by Islamic fundamentalism that has any sort of decent human rights record or free society?

Sure, The Abbasids before the Mongols burned Baghdad down in 1258.

(however you're defining them) publicly state they want Israel "wiped off the map"? I mean it's unsurprising that you would conflate "the Palestinians" with Ahmadinejad (who is Iranian), but go ahead and cite your evidence.

Remember that some of the most stridently anti-Israel regimes have been nationalistic rather than fundamentalist. Fundamentalism tends to beget poor human rights records and unfree societies but it isn't necessarily the only reason why regimes have been hostile to Israel, and I'm not sure it's really the best explanation for what Hamas does and why they do it.

Exhibit "A"
link - ( New Window )

And now one, please, not from known conspiratorial thrower of feces Glenn Beck.

tend to broadcast the "Death to America" shit a little more sparingly than European ones, but it isn't a figment of Glenn Beck's imagination (and yes, he is the suxity).

i'm as liberal as they come, so i'm not advocating for the objectivity of that site.

do yourself a favor and dig a little deeper behind the web address, though. that article cites a number of actual quotes from actual PA officials, Fatah officials, etc.

the blaze is not reliable when it editorializes, no argument there. but they don't fabricate quotes as far as i know.

Your question is impossible to answer unless you define it better. What is Islamic "fundamentalism"?

There is no country in the world today that is ruled according to Islamic law (sharia). None. There have been attempts to rule countries with Islamic law but the west has been quick to kill any chance of that happening because it would mean that their free access to natural resources in these countries would be cut off among other things.

It's a shame because I'm pretty sure that these countries would flourish if they were allowed to rule their countries as they see fit. Certainly it would be better than being bombed into "democracy".

In comment 11774794 Makelele said:

Quote:

Your question is impossible to answer unless you define it better. What is Islamic "fundamentalism"? There is no country in the world today that is ruled according to Islamic law (sharia). None. There have been attempts to rule countries with Islamic law but the west has been quick to kill any chance of that happening because it would mean that their free access to natural resources in these countries would be cut off among other things. It's a shame because I'm pretty sure that these countries would flourish if they were allowed to rule their countries as they see fit. Certainly it would be better than being bombed into "democracy".

"Word!"

Mullah Omar

Woah, wait, did I just see someone say a country would be better off under Sharia Law and would flourish? Well, that sure is a first. This is a troll I assume?

In comment 11774770 Overseer said:

Quote:

(however you're defining them) publicly state they want Israel "wiped off the map"? I mean it's unsurprising that you would conflate "the Palestinians" with Ahmadinejad (who is Iranian), but go ahead and cite your evidence.

Oh come on, man, it's in their damned charter!

Quote:

The Hamas Covenant also known as Hamas Charter, refers to the Charter of the Hamas, issued on 18 August 1988, outlining the movement founding identity, stand, and aims.[1] The Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[2] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.

Link - ( New Window )

In comment 11774794 Makelele said:

Quote:

Your question is impossible to answer unless you define it better. What is Islamic "fundamentalism"? There is no country in the world today that is ruled according to Islamic law (sharia). None. There have been attempts to rule countries with Islamic law but the west has been quick to kill any chance of that happening because it would mean that their free access to natural resources in these countries would be cut off among other things. It's a shame because I'm pretty sure that these countries would flourish if they were allowed to rule their countries as they see fit. Certainly it would be better than being bombed into "democracy".

Well, the half of the country with a penis might flourish, the other half, not so much.

Please expose your ignorance.

People talk about sharia as if they know what it is. How people can criticise something they don't even know what is or have never even studied is baffling.

Go educate yourself.

anti-semite troll. not worth it.

Or retract your statement.

Buford was not defining "the Palestinians" as Hamas because she stated the two separately. Hence why I asked how she is defining the former and for evidence of their "wiping off the map" advocacy.

In comment 11774822 Makelele said:

Quote:

Or retract your statement.

or i could just tell you to go fuck your mother.

and they are faced with a massive epidemic of wife-beating going back decades.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/18/turkey-s-rampant-domestic-violence-problem.html

Would Sharia reduce this problem?

Btw, Brunei implemented Sharia. Let's see how that is going.

Quote:

Plans for the sharia penalties – which will eventually include flogging, severing of limbs and death by stoning – triggered condemnation on social media sites in the tiny sultanate earlier this year. Confusion has swirled around implementation of the punishments following the unexplained postponement of an expected 22 April start date that raised questions over whether the Muslim monarch was hesitating. But 67-year-old Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah – one of the world's wealthiest men – said in his decree that the move was "a must" under Islam, dismissing "never-ending theories" that sharia punishments were cruel in comments clearly aimed at detractors.

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No one who plays for Chelsea deserves the benefit of the doubt.

I've never read the Koran but I assume it's full of contradictions like pretty much any large sweeping religious text. I'd be very surprised if there was ever a large sovereign territory that was governed by strict Sharia law.

Anyway, Sharia law or otherwise, the Middle East will probably just indefinitely continue to be a cesspool of backwardness.

I concede that you haven't said anything overtly anti-semitic.

On misogynism, you don't fare so well, since sharia law in all forms is brutal to women.

It is also no more than a clever trick to pretend that Sharia in its pure form would EVER exist. It would always be combined with primitive, barbaric tribal rituals, and with hatred for non-Muslims. Or do you think it would not? Are you really that ignorant?

plenty of anti-semitic things on other threads. give him long enough on this one and he'll say it here too. unless he's a coward, of course.

Sharia was pretty progressive. It afforded property rights and evidentiary rights to women that were lacking in contemporaneous societies, set limits on polygamy and established duties for males toward their wives. The problem is that what was progressive for the Seventh Century is less so now.

In comment 11774776 Dunedin81 said:

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Remember that some of the most stridently anti-Israel regimes have been nationalistic rather than fundamentalist. Fundamentalism tends to beget poor human rights records and unfree societies but it isn't necessarily the only reason why regimes have been hostile to Israel, and I'm not sure it's really the best explanation for what Hamas does and why they do it.

I must not have been clear. My point wasn't about how Hams or fundamentalists would treat Israelis, but rather how they would treat their own people (especially those with xx chromosomes).

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According to most estimates, around one in five Palestinian deaths in Operation Defense Edge has been that of a child. If counting solely civilian casualties, the number is bound to be higher, but Hamas estimates do not distinguish between deaths of militants and bystanders. (Everyone, such a count implies, is fighting for the cause of liberation.) ... Why are so many children dying in Gaza? The answer is surprisingly simple. According to the CIA World Factbook, about half of the Strip’s population is under the age of 18. The median age in Gaza is just 18 and a few months. With the elder population amounting to an almost-negligible percentage, young children are easily the most vulnerable. .. The result is lots of children and an ever-growing population for already-scarce resources. No emigration means everyone born into Gaza has to stay. This also puts a strain on Gaza’s long-term memory: an ever-increasing proportion of the population has never known Israel as anything but an overwhelmingly more powerful enemy. Fully 40 percent of the population doesn’t even remember anything before Israel’s 2005 disengagement from the Strip. This is the third armed conflict in their short lives.

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In comment 11774869 M in CT said:

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In comment 11774822 Makelele said: Quote: Or retract your statement. or i could just tell you to go fuck your mother.

Wait, I am headed to 42nd and 2nd right now, don't start until i get there!

In comment 11774895 Dunedin81 said:

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Sharia was pretty progressive. It afforded property rights and evidentiary rights to women that were lacking in contemporaneous societies, set limits on polygamy and established duties for males toward their wives. The problem is that what was progressive for the Seventh Century is less so now.

This. This thing I've seen both with uber-conservative Islamic apologists and others (in this case, uber-conservative Hindus) who make similar sorts of claims: if you have to justify your current social attitudes by claiming that they were compassionate and progressive over half a millennium ago, you're probably out of touch.

In comment 11774884 RB^2 said:

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I've never read the Koran but I assume it's full of contradictions like pretty much any large sweeping religious text. I'd be very surprised if there was ever a large sovereign territory that was governed by strict Sharia law. Anyway, Sharia law or otherwise, the Middle East will probably just indefinitely continue to be a cesspool of backwardness.

Sharia is not the Qur'an. Actually, there was a pretty sophisticated hermeneutical apparatus amongst classical Muslim scholars to understand Sharia and make graded claims of its relevance according to context, history, etc.

But as I just said above, that's no excuse for perpetuating the worst parts of the middle ages through the modern world.

In comment 11774729 Nitro said:

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but apparently seen 2 of you and a retard missed it, that was poor writing on my end. Hope that dish of a niece is okay.

I was probably the retard. I hate that word.

But I was just piling on. Sorry.

You do seem to be the kind of person who enjoys being mean, but gets all emotional when it's turned back on you. But, in any case, we all have our weak spots, myself included.I was just piling on, so sorry if it hurt your feelings.

eventually you'll unlock the key to the psyche of my warped, hurt mind.

In comment 11774959 Nitro said:

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eventually you'll unlock the key to the psyche of my warped, hurt mind.

Well, retard is as retard does, so guess I will accept the term for this instance, despite the fact that I do find it offensive.

In comment 11774913 Pork and Beans said:

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Wait, I am headed to 42nd and 2nd right now, don't start until i get there!

i don't get it...but my guess is it has something to do with the Israeli consulate being right there?

why there doesn't seem to be outrage over the appalling way many other ARAB countries treat Palenstinian refugees.

It is just appalling to me that Israel is made out to be this monster ethnic cleanser when they treat Arab citizens better than the majority of Arab world treat their citizens.

When was the last time Palestinian leaders punished a Palestinian for the violence committed against Israelis? I can't recall a single istance. What did Palestinian leaders do with the billions in aid they have received?

It's so easy to just blame Israel for Palestine's woes. It couldn't have anythign to do with Hamas spending all funds on rockets to shoot at Israel. It couldn't have to do with Palestininan leaders like Arafat stealing so he could live like a king.

There could be peace tomorrow. Unfortunately, Hamas doesn't want it, and much of the Arab world doesn't want it either as they don't care about the Palestinians, just funding their attacks on Israel to incur retaliation.

That's a long running BBI-ism. I can't remember who the original poster was, but some tough guy on here wanted to meet some wise ass on here at that intersection.

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The desire for one's ally to state the blatantly obvious... Dunedin81 : 9:58 am : link : reply that there is no moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas, between an entity that sacrifices its soldiers to avoid civilian casualties and one that makes civilian casualties its method of operation, is not really as unconscionable as some of you suppose.

For the others that suggested I was acting ungrateful for US support, yeah you might be right that I am taking US support (about 20% of Israeli's 15 Billion defense budget is subsidized by the US, mostly by dint of military hardware support) for granted. In a way though that support is just another way for Uncle Sam to prop up his defense industry contractors, since Israel is a very large purchaser of US made weapons. I don't think Israel goes out seeking the lowest bidder on fighter-bomber tenders from the USSR or the French-British coalition at Dassault or whatever...

I'd take "no comment" from Obama preferentially over him rushing Kerry into the scene to broker a cease fire. So to answer BCs question - "NO, I don't want a cease fire at this point and neither do most of the Israeli middle aged men I know." The young Tel Avivi crowd that boycots my wine because it's made in the West Bank, yeah, they want a cease fire. They might not even remember the 2nd Intifada, it happened in their early teens or earlier. BC, there is no one there to negotiate a cease fire with, IMO. For Hamas, a cease fire happens only when they need a break to re-stock weapons of terror.

Micky The New Republic piece was a pretty interesting read for me, but it left out some very significant facts like how with any sense of reality can Abu Mazen claim to represent the Palestinian people as a whole? Hamas has as much or more reason to claim they are the sole true leaders of Palestine. Too bad Mazen had no influence on Arafat at Camp David, none whatsoever. Mazen may be the type of leader Israel could cut a deal with, but 1st he has to win his people over to him to the same extent that Arafat had their support. Right now he's a best one legged, and probablynot even that.

Pork and beans, what's creepy is the way you read my post, what you decide to dig out of it. I don't know what your problem is, did you marry a dyke or get raped by a weird uncle when you were 10, but dude, it's tiring. And borderline stalking of my comments. Give it a rest? This thread has bigger issues than your fixation on my former prowess with dames or the fact that I have hot nieces... Anyway their good looks comes from my wife's side of the bloodlines, it ain't my genes.

you mention weird uncle in a post where you reiterate that you find your niece hot.

more Palestinians have died outside of Israel/Palestine than in it, and more Palestinians died during the Black September conflict between Arafat's PLO and the Jordanian Armed Forces than in the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Go to these other Arab nations and see what many of them think of the Palestinians there.

This won't end until the Palestinians are no longer ruled by terrorists who only want to destroy Israel.

Egypt could open their border any time.

Jordan could give back some of the land they stole any time.

Any country could take in Palestinians. I think Israel is the only one that does.

in the crackdowns on Sabra and Shatila by Amal (a Lebanese Shia militia) than in the infamous Hobeika raid (Lebanese Christian Phalangists whose conduct was imputed to the Israelis who failed to stop them). A lot more ambiguity than Israel's critics admit.

But seriously, what's your issue? Jealousy of some sort? I'd like to at least get it. Did I call you a stupid fuck on some football thread? Dude, you're stalking... that ain't healthy.

I've mentioned this before, but the conflation of Hamas with the leaders in the West Bank does nothing in the way of making progress on this issue or making clear the challenges therein. By no means is Fatah in the vanguard toward a peaceful democracy (although Abbas is markedly better than Arafat), but they are not Hamas.

I question, too, your belief that Israel is portrayed as a "monster ethnic cleanser". Among the insane perhaps, but not among anyone worth listening to. What is true, however, is that they (namely RW'ers in Likud) do bear some responsibility for the lack of progress to their East. No one credible would blame a lack of progress on Immigration on "America" but strident RW elements in Congress are unquestionably a major factor.

What is also true is that, yes, Israel is held to a higher standard. So is the good-looking successful sibling next to two that are drunk, lazy, and consistently caught masturbating in public. (It was one time). Not fair, perhaps, but indeed predictable.

In comment 11775091 BlueLou said:

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But seriously, what's your issue? Jealousy of some sort? I'd like to at least get it. Did I call you a stupid fuck on some football thread? Dude, you're stalking... that ain't healthy.

You want to know if I need more motivation to comment on a post where you compare your sibling's daughter to something you eat off of?

No, that was enough.

An absurd amount of UN ink is spilt on Israel while major human rights violators get little or no mention. It is a double standard, and an unhealthy one. As I said above, if Israel acted as its "mainstream" (globally anyway) critics would have it act it would have ceased to exist a long time ago.

in Syria. I guess it doesn't count, because it's Syria doing it, not Israel.

I'd refer you to:

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but not among anyone worth listening to.

The UN has its uses (minimally), but the lamentable tendency of many liberals to afford excessive leniency to the plainly contemptible (out of respect for "cultural/religious differences" or whatever the fuck...) renders its opinion on this issue unimportant.

Still waiting on the evidence that Palestinians publicly called for Israel to be "wiped off the map". Or should we just add that to the gargantuan pile of bullshit you've amassed and never backed up?

but it remains consequential because the Europeans and especially the Arab world do care, or at least do tout, their proceedings. They serve as the basis for divestment and other campaigns. They also seem to crowd out more narrow and reasoned criticisms, lest those critics be conjoined to the frothing and/or obtuse nitwits.

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In comment 11775177 Overseer said:

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Still waiting on the evidence that Palestinians publicly called for Israel to be "wiped off the map". Or should we just add that to the gargantuan pile of bullshit you've amassed and never backed up?

Palestinians or Hamas?

On the web throw insults when their posts get shown up for what they are, which is ignorant crap. What childlike behaviour.

Someone mentioned that sharia was progressive and is now outdated. This only shows how little you know about sharia. Sharia is by definition fluid and organic. It always has to evolve to adapt to it's surroundings. That you lot have taken the political systems of dictators and tyrants to be sharia is your problem.

I repeat: EDUCATE YOURSELF. There is tons of information on what sharia truly is. It is not backward and it is not "women hating". It is one of the most intricate legal systems that has existed. Any self respecting scholar will attest to this.

so you are stating now that the countries in the Middle East, North Africa, and Asia that apply Sharia Law do not discriminate against women? Really?

about this stuff. But I won't tolerate ignorance. That's the last thing I will say on this subject.

Be glad you are male or he'd fuck you up mighty nice for being so ignent.

In comment 11775237 Makelele said:

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about this stuff. But I won't tolerate ignorance. That's the last thing I will say on this subject.

Promise?

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You want to know if I need more motivation to comment on a post where you compare your sibling's daughter to something you eat off of? No, that was enough.

You're getting me to miller (along with you) my own thread about certainly larger issues, but for the moment I'll continue in the interest of examining your mental health - or lack thereof.

Besides the fact that she's not "my sibling's daughter" as you erroneously have assumed, she's a very beautiful young woman. In my old fashioned vernacular, a "dish" is just that. No relation to anything one "eats off of."

From Urban dictionary for "dish, slang" a one second google search found this:

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dish An attractive woman. "She's a real dish."

So I called my niece a 'dish' in that sense, what I'm curious about is why that's such an issue for you? She is in fact a very attractive woman, which is why I find her difficulty in finding a partner curious. As if she expects every guy to equal her brother, which is a tall order.

Part of the op, you may recall, is that I'm wondering if her brother, my nephew, is alive and well, since several of his fellow brigade are not.

What's your issue, I ask again, and I'd appreciate if you take your sleazy comments off my thread.

In comment 11775221 njm said:

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In comment 11775177 Overseer said: Quote: Still waiting on the evidence that Palestinians publicly called for Israel to be "wiped off the map". Or should we just add that to the gargantuan pile of bullshit you've amassed and never backed up? Palestinians or Hamas?

I did link them all together. It really doesn't matter. The Palestinians elected Hamas. Hamas is a client of Iran who DID say they want to wipe Israel off the map. But nothing will be good enough for Overseer. Of course there are innocent Palestinians, just as there are innocent Syrians. The people who are causing this are Hamas/Iran. Not Israel.

How could a legal system that mandates death for anyone choosing to leave a certain religion to be backwards???

According to the Sharia law:

• Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand (above).
• Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Muhammad is a prophet is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Allah, the moon god of Islam is punishable by death.
• A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim man who marries a Muslim woman is punishable by death.
• A man can marry an infant girl and consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old.
• Girls' clitoris should be cut (per Muhammad's words in Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).
• A woman can have 1 husband, but a man can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.
• A man can unilaterally divorce his wife but a woman needs her husband's consent to divorce.
• A man can beat his wife for insubordination.
• Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman.
• A woman who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).
• A woman's testimony in court, allowed only in property cases, carries half the weight of a man's.
• A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits.
• A woman cannot drive a car, as it leads to fitnah (upheaval).
• A woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative.
• Meat to be eaten must come from animals that have been sacrificed to Allah - i.e., Halal.
• Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.

law and it's punishment for adultery.

Stoning to death, after lashing. Good stuff!
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but when i think of stoning some a gay man to death, i'm thinking fluid and organic.

I would like to educate myself. Can you provide some sources for us to educate ourselves. Apparently most of us have been getting stuff from lying non scholars.

ISIS = Hamas when it comes to non-muslims.

There is 0 tolerance for rejection of Islam or refusal to be subordinate to Islam.
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rhetoric skills are rivaled only by his capitalization skills.

1) Define Sharia in its most pure, most benign, most pristene form. Ignore the fact that this form only exists in fantasy.

2) Ignore all of the pressures for Sharia to deviate from this form--tribal and traditional influences, the role of dictators, greed, corruption, the desire to subjugate women, emnity with "the other" (non-Muslims), etc.

3) Blame all of the deviations and distorions from the pure, benign, pristene version on outsiders--if it weren't for the US, Israel and the energy cartel, lots of countries would have adopted "nice guy Sharia" by now.

4) Ignore all of the evidence that, left to their own devices, relgions based upon original tracts and seventh century traditions will trend back toward their original sources and distortions.

In other words, it's all our fault.

They would stone gays to death, and then lash them. Far less pain that way, and the results of the lashings made delicious jerky.

and lost points off of my IQ I can't afford to lose. I is getting domber by da secund

the treatment of Christians and Jews in the Middle East and Central Asia over the last half-century plus has been one of the most underreported crimes against human rights and cultural heritage. Some of these communities date back thousands of years and have been ground to nothing in this century. And contrast the Israeli treatment of Jewish refugees, some of whom are quite difficult to assimilate, with the refusal of many countries in the Arab world to accept Palestinians as more than temporary inhabitants. Yes of course the Israelis have good reasons for doing so, but so too do the Arab states have good reasons for failing to do so.

In comment 11775297 chris r said:

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rhetoric skills are rivaled only by his capitalization skills.

oh, sorry Chris! you forgot the apostrophe in your subject line. no prize for you. but stick around for double jeopardy where the scores can really change!

In comment 11775220 buford said:

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In other words, you believe that a one-off poll in which a majority explicitly does not advocate violence is akin to "publicly" advocating that Israel be "wiped off the map"?

Just admit what is so obviously true. With your patented glibness, you blurred the lines between the bellicose former Iranian president and Palestinians because you thought it buttressed your point (it did not).

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I did link them all together. It really doesn't matter. The Palestinians elected Hamas. Hamas is a client of Iran who DID say they want to wipe Israel off the map. But nothing will be good enough for Overseer. Of course there are innocent Palestinians, just as there are innocent Syrians. The people who are causing this are Hamas/Iran. Not Israel.

It does matter, actually. There are regional differences with notable consequences on the geopolitical dynamic of the ME. Do you not understand that Hamas is not the uniform elected representation of the Palestinian Territories? And hence that it's important to consider other factors? Eh fuck it. Hamas, Iran, Taliban, Janjaweed, Boko Haram, Mahmoud Abbas. Tomato/To-mahto.

First let me command you on your willingness to actually trying to understand before criticising something.

Second of all, know that everything you've heard about sharia is probably rubbish. The link above to what is obviously a smear site against Islam is an obvious example of that.

Believe me when I say that sharia is ridiculously intricate as a legal system. This is why it's fascinating. It can be quite overwhelming to try and tackle this field in one go but a book called The Principles of State and Government in Islam" does a good job of introducing you to the subject.

You can find a pdf version of the book here: http://muhammad-asad.com/Principles-State-Government-Islam.pdf

i just copied that link into my browser and i got an error message saying my computer was going to self destruct in 30 seconds.

should i be nervous here?

Compared to, what, the simplicity that is modern civil society?

observed by highly intellectual societies that can grasp the nuances and complexities and come to reasonable conclusions

I have never made the argument that one legal system is better than the other, because a legal system only works if people believe in it.

Let me put it to you this way: if a bunch of us come together to play a sport, most of us want to play handball but I impose soccer’s rules onto the game, the game will be horrendous.

A legal system must be seen as legitimate by the people for it to work, and when you look at the legal systems across the Muslim World, they are (for the most part, but not all) are not seen as legitimate by the people and are nearly all products of either colonialism or western models, and thus the benefit of “Muslim Law” can only be realized if the people are indeed Muslim and desirous of such a legal system.

I believe that Shariah is the most comprehensive legal system, because unlike other legal systems, it has a mechanism to move past the limitations that the law will necessarily have. So, when you have a moral problem, how do you solve it?

I have said before that “once you need law to solve an issue of morality, you have an issue that law cannot solve,” and that is true, and that is why Shariah is quite different, because there are always limitations on what the law can do, Shariah included, but what makes Shariah different is that it is paired with the larger social construction of Islam, which means that if you think of the law as half a loop, Islam is the second half that “completes the loop” so that you can have a comprehensive methodology to tackle societal issues.

Therefore, if you want to combat gender discrimination, you can enact all the most fantastic legislation in the world, but if people don’t respect it, if women don’t see it as something that is real, then what can you do? Nothing.

However, when you have the power of Islam, as a force of social and moral mobilization, then you have the channels to enact change on two levels: the official and the unofficial, which is why Islam was so effective, even in the pre-nation state structures that it primarily existed in.

Regardless, though, if the people do not see Islam as relevant, then Shariah becomes no different to any other legal system, and it will be judged simply on its ability to adjudicate fairly and efficiently, but, if people do not have a stake in the system, the chance of that system running fairly or efficiently is quite slim.

So you have to have people “buy-in” or else it doesn’t matter if you have Mongolian or American law, it will not work.

I hope that made sense.

and Sharia law is implemented, then it can work.

Well, no wonder why it doesn't work.

I cant wait for football to start..

but the opposite

Saying one bad thing about Israel equates to being anti-semitic but being anti-muslim is fully tolerated here.

being anti Israel the odds are great anti semitism is there

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a sect that happens to be Jewish? What else you got?

but support Israel's right to exist.

In comment 11775356 Ace718 said:

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Because that's based on religious reasons, not political or humanitarian. Those Jews believe that Jews shouldn't live in that area until the Messiah comes and rebuilds the Temple.

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In comment 11775387 Bill L said:

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Perhaps it was their typically American defense of a woman's right not to be raped and beaten.

Shariah. It's not an anti-Muslim comment

In comment 11775396 Bill L said:

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Shariah. It's not an anti-Muslim comment

I was joking kind of. I agree with you.

I don't really give a crap what you think. But honestly, what do you think the Palestinians think of Israel? A majority want to take it over, so what is the distinction between that and 'wiping them off the map'.

As I said, I feel for the people, but they have brought this on themselves. And until you express the same concern for children and other civilians murdered in Syria, Iraq and other Muslilm countries, where they are killed by Muslims, I can't really take you seriously.

But overseer's question was *immediately* answered by M in Ct. Complete with quotations..he might not have liked who compiled the information but that doesn't negate either its veracity or that his question was asked and answered and need not have been repeated.

Any cease fire that allows the Palestinians to keep their rockets is nothing more than a set up for another conflict.Wars don't end when people decide they want to make nice they end when one side forces the other to accept its terms.If Gaza is under seige for long enough they will give up their rockets.While this won't lead to a real peace it will greatly prolong the time that Israel will again have to fight for relative peace and quite.No matter how hard the media tries to create sympathy for the Palestinians hopefully most people realize that no country can accept missle attacks on its cities even if the missles are not accurate.

Hard for me to follow the "my enemy is worse" argument that both sides like to espouse. I have worked with Arab Muslims, Arab Chrisitians, Israelis and Iranians. Wonderful people all. Time for each to accept the other.

Israel exists! It is not going anywhere and its people have proven to be resourceful survivors. However, Israel does not exist alone and it is time for a solution, so that children of both sides can grow up without fear. The solution is for the US to stop sitting it out and finally get directly involved in supporting our diplomatic efforts with efforts on the ground. It shocks me that the US has been willing to place troops in Iraq and Afghanistan to protect former enemies from civil wars but not in Israel. American soldiers would provide a neutral buffer. We have been dragged into this conflict anyway. Let's help it end.

Spent last evening at a dinner with an 18 year old Israeli and her 17 year old Palestinian summer camp roommate from the West Bank. Both were incredibly impressive individuals--bright and witty. They spent the night laughing at each other's jokes and sharing stories of their siblings. It is hard to imagine that in a month both will be in danger of a stupid and senseless war that has gone on too long.

Neutral buffer? We shouldn't be anywhere near that area. Put our soldiers in harms way, for what? Israel and Palestine?

No thanks.

as someone who particularly cares what anyone thinks given how readily you make a fool of yourself on this website.

Bill: I don't necessarily have a problem with biased or even agenda driven media. I do hesitate to accept the veracity of those sources emanating from conspiracy-obsessed crazy people. As long as you're talking quotes, here's one from the PLO chairman:

Quote:

We have to negotiate with the Israelis peacefully. This is our ideology. This is our mentality. This is the culture of the Palestinians. We are not ready to turn back to violence.

You can believe he's lying and is wont to default to duplicity. There's a whole lot of empty talk from the region, mostly to appease America. But it is simply inaccurate to equate wider Palestinians (including their version of a legitimate government body) with Hamas or Ahmadinejad. Like it is to equate Hizbullah with the Lebanese. (Although maybe you have a Blaze link on hand to prove otherwise).

.