NFT: Knicks chat 7/22

As Jackson had to convince Jordan, Fisher will have to convince Anthony that sticking with the triangle and trusting his teammates will ultimately make the game easier for him. That process of building trust and chemistry was always a work in progress with Jordan, who often fought the constraints the offense put on his one-on-one game. But Jordan had achieved more success to that point in his pro career than Anthony has. Jordan's Bulls had made three straight conference finals, losing each time to Detroit; Anthony has only been once, with the Nuggets in 2009. And Jordan had already won two of his five MVPs. "'Melo can definitely do it," Hardaway, Jr., said. "He showed it a lot in the season, believe it or not. When we was double-teamed, when he was trapped, he was always finding that open guy. It was very rare for him to shoot through three or four guys. He'll succeed through this offense. Everybody has to trust in it, not only one person, but everybody has to." NBA.com - See more at: http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm#sthash.1A3OORvT.dpuf

There are conflicting reports regarding Steve Mills� interest in becoming the new executive director of the players� union. It has been reported that Mills, who was rehired by the Knicks last September, is a top candidate for the job. However, a league source told the Daily News that Mills recently removed his name from consideration. Mills is currently the GM under Jackson, who recently said the two are working well together. New York Daily News
Rumors tagsNew York Knicks, NBPA, Steve Mills
- See more at: http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm#sthash.1A3OORvT.dpuf

There is a lot of debate on what the Knicks starting lineup is going to be this season, but I still think they have another move in them to open up playing time for Tim Hardaway Jr.

how did Hardaway's defense look? I saw his stat lines from a points standpoint, so it's clear he's doing well there

with the starting lineup. Well i guess just the SG and C position. Personally id go with Dalembert at center just to help out with D and id prolly go with JR at SG since he is the best combination of offensive/Defensive of all our 2 guards. So i guess id go:

Calderon
JR
Melo
Amare
Dalembert

With Larkin, THJR, Shumpert, Smith and Bargs as the bench.

defensively but its really hard to get a feel for that during summer league. The games are such a cluster and the quality of player is obviously not as good as it would be in the regular season.

general summer league is more fun than anything notable. Defense/pacing/talent is nowhere near NBA caliber on the whole.

I think of summer league as being close to the level of streetball when it comes to team defense, but sometimes you can see if an individual improves at all. I'm just hesitant to trade Shump if THjr hasn't improved at all on the defensive end.

Calderon
Shump
Melo
Amare
Dalembert

THJR as the 6th man. Larkin as the backup PG. Smith as the backup big, Bargs as the other big off the bench.

I think he comes off the bench with Bargnani...

Calderon
Smith
Melo
Stat
Smith

yeah id be ok with Smith starting as well, i was just going with dalembert since you have enough offense with that starting lineup to deal with Dalembert's lack of offensive. If you play him with a second unit with most likely at least larkin/shumpert his lack of offense could hurt more

In comment 11775841 kmed said:

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Calderon Shump Melo Amare Dalembert THJR as the 6th man. Larkin as the backup PG. Smith as the backup big, Bargs as the other big off the bench.

Give up the dream, my friend. J.R. is probably gonna be here for awhile.

tweeted his probable starting 5 last week and he has Bargs as the starting center. Probably just him spitballing but I took note of it.

Also... Jason Smith probably wouldn't start over Cole Aldrich either.

No shump and bargs/amare. The worst defensive team ever put on the floor.

but not right away, I don't think. So, Dalembert starts but plays limited minutes. The center spot is going to be an odd mismash, with at least Amare also getting time, and maybe even Bargnani. Jackson has said that he thinks center is Amare's best position. Maybe that helps Smith, who plays the high post with Amare down low and defends opposing centers.

And unless they come up with another 3 (and give up on Tyler at least for now), Early has to be in the mix pretty quickly. They need more size at the backup 3 against many teams than Shump or Smith. On the other hand, if Smith or Shump play really well during the exhibition season (more likely Smith), they may concede some size for the extra offense. If JR really gets on his game, and I believe he might, the extra offense at the 3 could be really helpful, especially if Hardaway is taking most of the minutes at the 2.

That's what exhibition season is for. Other than probably adding a 3, I believe they will let the 2/3 sort themselves out before doing any more trading that just brings back a pick. The pick could be a lot better than right now if either Shump or Smith raise their game with much better coaching.

minutes melo sits out you can get away with the SG's playing some SF. Its not ideal, but its def doable.

And i dont see how you can start bargs/amare together. They should almost never play at the same time. Bad rebounders and horrible defenders. Amare should only play about 25 minutes a game id guess so give the other 20-25 to bargs and let smith/dalembert split the center minutes.

50 Knicks ever, discuss (no knock on Oakley but he's too high for me).
Link - ( New Window )

NESN ‏@NESN 1m
Report: Kevin Love Trade To Cavaliers �Deal Is Done�; No Timetable Given

In comment 11775895 Anakim said:

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NESN �@NESN 1m Report: Kevin Love Trade To Cavaliers �Deal Is Done�; No Timetable Given

Read the article...the source is a little know radio station in Portland..

a HUGE story if it were true.

I feel like it's pretty much expected at this point.

Rubio/Wiggins may be the greatest boom/bust backcourt of all-time if this goes through.

this season the worst frontcourt in basketball history? Trying to think of worse.

The assumption seems to be that Melo virtually never plays the 4 in this system with this roster. I don't know the triangle, but I do see the roster mismatches. Do you think that's right?

Ha come on

In comment 11776077 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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this season the worst frontcourt in basketball history? Trying to think of worse.

the mere presence of Melo makes the answer "no", however outside of him? Yeah, it's pretty thin.

in the triangle is the secondary offensive option/facilitator. PG feeds the post, post feeds the scorer ala Jordan. A Marc Gasol, Greg Monroe type would be awesome. Chandler's poor passing/hands were never going to work. Amar'e potentially could do pretty well in this offense (when healthy)

is going to be our offense.

In comment 11776085 manh george said:

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The assumption seems to be that Melo virtually never plays the 4 in this system with this roster. I don't know the triangle, but I do see the roster mismatches. Do you think that's right?

To me, the key to Melo playing the 4 was the matchups. Fours can't match his quickness and threes can't match his strength. It's less important in the Triangle because the positions matter less. With the triangle, the players can all be out in the wing, or in the low post, depending on the matchups and what the defense does. It's kind of about having a three man (triangles for spacing) game and having two weak side guys. It's not unlike the spacing that the Knicks used so well with Discount double check. It's just that instead of kind of randomly passing the ball around, there's a system that dictates where the ball should go. Melo will get the ball on the wing in this system and in the post and he's excellent at both.

In that regard, it's a little like the Gilbride read and react (gulp).
Pretty good intro to Triangle. - ( New Window )

paper the defense is going to be absolutely horrendous. Hopefully the defensive scheme is good enough to improve it more than the talent.

if GW is in your franchise top 20 that says all you need to know about your franchise...I still love this damn team though.

he played in the Princeton offense in College which put him at the elbow and the offense was run through him...he found cutters and the open shooters...very good passer for a big man...

As for the big man depth on the Knicks...I think the Center spot they are ok between Dalembert, Aldrich and Smith...all 3 can do the dirty work on the boards....Dalembert isnt a complete bust on the offensive end like Chandler, Aldrich has a nice little jump hook and can do a little bit on the offensive end... Smith has a nice mid range jump shot and can rebound and is not afraid to be a physical player...

If those 3 can stay healthy center should be fine...the question is what do you do at the 4...do you start Stat and bargs off the bench and can they even stay healthy and combined play 82 games?...doubtful

Amar'e is healthy there is no way a 3/4 of Melo and Amar'e is part of any worst frontcourt in ANY team's history.

I know Amar'e isn't what he was, but it's not like he's gone from All-Star to Saer Sene.

might be 3 of the worst defensive players at their respective positions in the NBA.

but with a world-class player at the 3, and a whole bunch of viable mediocre players at the 4/5, its a lot better than teams that didn't have a star, and didn't even have quality second-tier depth at the 5--like the Knicks before Melo. 2009 Knicks? Now THAT was a lot worse frontcourt. When Earl Baron upgrades the center position, you are in very sad shape.
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 11776133 kmed said:

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might be 3 of the worst defensive players at their respective positions in the NBA.

Yeah, we need to make sure that we never have more than two on the floor at the same time.

accountability should result in any group of of paid professional basketball players producing an average or slightly below average defense. That would be a decent improvement over last year's 24th ranked outfit.

In comment 11776137 BeerFridge said:

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In comment 11776133 kmed said: Quote: might be 3 of the worst defensive players at their respective positions in the NBA. Yeah, we need to make sure that we never have more than two on the floor at the same time.

With Woodson gone i dont think we will have to worry about it...I think 1 of Dalembert, Smith or Aldrich will be on the court at all times with Amare or bargs...

would improve the defense that had about 5 different people playing a different system at all times last year. Accountability will be nice as well. It's amazing to me to hear about the players doing what they wanted last year on defense and yet never one did Woodson change anything. Never once did he hold anyone accountable. Boggles my mind.

we just need to hope its close enough to average that it doesnt completely ruin our year. Everyone on the same page can make a defense average so that is what we need to shoot for. And hopefully the offense is good enough to win some games.

watching a team actually have an offensive system with ball movement and cutters not give the ball to Melo and everyone clear out and just stand there and watch...

also the defensive system i cant wait to actually watch players stay with their man rather than switch on absolutely everything...excited not to see Dalembert guarding Chris Paul

compared to the mess that the Knicks were last season, but they had the THIRD best defense last year...and it's not like they have a roster full of stoppers. System + effort should at least make us competitive on defense. At least against the bottom half of the league.

nice honor for him...
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Calderon/Dalembert were part of the 22nd ranked defense last year. And that's on a team that was contending and has a great coach. However, perhaps their numbers would have looked a lot better if they played in the eastern conference and not in a division with 4th, 6th, 13th, and 15th ranked offenses.

that defense also included Dirk in his mid 30s, Monta Ellis, and Brandon Wright playing rim protector when Dalambert was sitting. And it still ranked higher than the Knicks D.

The Legend of Earl Barron!

will only re-sign with the Pistons if Josh Smith is traded. This graph might be a reason why...

quote real?

Josh Smith is an all star level PF and a terrible SF. Can't space the floor but a beast in the post and interior defense.

and I don't ever see him a part of a winning program. He's as selfish as they come and I don't ever see him doing what it takes to win. I wouldn't take him if he cost $1 million and came as a FA, that's how much I hate him and players like him. He will never win.

Barron's name...

NBA Central ‏@TheNBACentral 10s
YAHOO: The Timberwolves are ready to agree on a trade deal if Cleveland sends Wiggins and multiple 1st Rd Picks.

Cleveland, they deserve this .

In comment [url=index.php?mode=2&thread=498187&show_all=1#11776311]11776311
/url] kmed said:

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Cleveland, they deserve this .

When's it gonna be our time though? :(

screw all if them. I deserve it.

or 3 if Cleveland doesn't win enough and Lebron runs again.

In comment 11776309 Anakim said:

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NBA Central ‏@TheNBACentral 10s YAHOO: The Timberwolves are ready to agree on a trade deal if Cleveland sends Wiggins and multiple 1st Rd Picks.

That last part is key. The only reports I've seen have the Cavs reluctantly including one 1st (with Wiggins/Bennett).

?

"The Mistake on the Lake Gets Some Love."

including Bennett too? If I'm the Cavs I tell them to fuck off if they want anything more than Wiggins + filler to make salaries work. They aren't getting any offer that can top Wiggins

In comment 11776355 MookGiants said:

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including Bennett too? If I'm the Cavs I tell them to fuck off if they want anything more than Wiggins + filler to make salaries work. They aren't getting any offer that can top Wiggins

Agreed. If Minn can get Wiggins + 1sts for Love, that's a damn good package for a guy who is about to walk.

at ESPN reporting that the Bulls are trying to get back into trade talks with the Wolves.

I'm sure the Wolves would rather have jimmy butler and taj gibson than Andrew Wiggins. Fucking delusional

They are getting love and have tristan Thompson. Bennett becomes extremely expendable, wouldn't see him cracking playoff rotations. Also sheds #1 pick salary which is relatively significant.

But on the otherside, it looks to be that the Twolves are finally undergoing a true rebuilding process.

Lavine and Wiggins both have elite potential, shabazz Muhammad and Bennett were both just rookies last year and gorgui dieng can become a top flight rim protector who can hit jump shots. Very good framework for
a rebuilding team. Also makes Rubio tradable for what it's worth

In comment 11776355 MookGiants said:

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including Bennett too? If I'm the Cavs I tell them to fuck off if they want anything more than Wiggins + filler to make salaries work. They aren't getting any offer that can top Wiggins

The last offer I heard was supposedly Wiggins/Bennett and 1 first (didn't specify which of the Cavs 3 1sts). This is from local MN radio. They're pretty confident that the starting offer was Wiggins/Bennett and the "hold-up" is agreeing on which pick(s) and Flip Saunders taking his time to see if GS will blink and include Klay Thompson.

that the MN beats are pretty confident that if the Cavs included multiple 1sts the deal would get done quickly.

We're overrating Cavs roster once LeBron joined it. I'm sure LeBron was told that they would be going hard for KLove.

No Knick fan should be happy that KLove is going to Cavs.

In comment 11776376 giantsfan44ab said:

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They are getting love and have tristan Thompson. Bennett becomes extremely expendable, wouldn't see him cracking playoff rotations. Also sheds #1 pick salary which is relatively significant. But on the otherside, it looks to be that the Twolves are finally undergoing a true rebuilding process. Lavine and Wiggins both have elite potential, shabazz Muhammad and Bennett were both just rookies last year and gorgui dieng can become a top flight rim protector who can hit jump shots. Very good framework for a rebuilding team. Also makes Rubio tradable for what it's worth

Muhammad's BBIQ is awful. They are not very high on him.

Doubt Rubio is going anywhere.

In comment 11776350 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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?

Oh you mean you don't know of them?

In comment 11776390 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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We're overrating Cavs roster once LeBron joined it. I'm sure LeBron was told that they would be going hard for KLove. No Knick fan should be happy that KLove is going to Cavs.

The only thing that surprised me is that LeBron didn't require them to acquire Love before he signed. Though I'm sure he got assurances that they'd do whatever they could to get him.

Woj reports it then I'll buy it. Other than that it's nonsense.

Lavine is better suited at SG and so is wiggins, but it's not like the end of the world if wiggins is at SF.

Now they can officially tank and they have a plethora of picks so the time Rubio, lavine and wiggins come around they could have a nice roster.

Look worse if they acquired Love before he signed. Then it wouldn't look like a homecoming any more than joining Kyrie Waiters and Love over Wade and bosh

That Nikola Mirotic is regarded more highly than Wiggins by some NBA officials.

By Who? The Bulls?i haven't heard something so outrageous in a longtime.

I don't trust this website anymore

In comment 11776439 giantsfan44ab said:

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That Nikola Mirotic is regarded more highly than Wiggins by some NBA officials. By Who? The Bulls?i haven't heard something so outrageous in a longtime. I don't trust this website anymore

One could argue that Mirotic played very well in Europe's top league against grown men while Wiggins was inconsistent playing against 18-22 year olds. I think Wiggins is a better prospect, but Mirotic is highly regarded also and is now signed to come to the NBA.

If Minn doesn't want to tank and wants to take a shot at the playoffs next year, Chicago probably has better pieces than CLE does to offer.

to say that if Minn couldn't make the playoffs WITH Love last year, they are probably better off taking the long view considering how loaded the west is. Wiggins/Bennet makes more sense in that case than Mirotic/Gibson + 1st round picks.

In comment 11776381 GIANTSr01 said:

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In comment 11776355 MookGiants said: Quote: including Bennett too? If I'm the Cavs I tell them to fuck off if they want anything more than Wiggins + filler to make salaries work. They aren't getting any offer that can top Wiggins The last offer I heard was supposedly Wiggins/Bennett and 1 first (didn't specify which of the Cavs 3 1sts). This is from local MN radio. They're pretty confident that the starting offer was Wiggins/Bennett and the "hold-up" is agreeing on which pick(s) and Flip Saunders taking his time to see if GS will blink and include Klay Thompson.

Why would Warriors want Thompson over Wiggins?

that the wolves realize they need to acquire as much superstar potential to contend by now. Clearly you consider Mirotic better than love (because if they can't make the playoffs with love how else would replacing him with Mirotic make them in contention for a spot), but if the bulls felt the same way about him why would they add gasol and draft mcdermott?

DI basketball is greater than any European league by leaps and bounds and wiggins is 5 years younger and didn't particularly struggle in the 2nd half of the season by any means. Please don't make this into a realistic argument.

hyping up Thompson to squeeze more out of Cleveland.

but Bulls "sources" and fans have been making him out to be some surefire allstar.

we could get him!

In comment 11776477 giantsfan44ab said:

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that the wolves realize they need to acquire as much superstar potential to contend by now. Clearly you consider Mirotic better than love (because if they can't make the playoffs with love how else would replacing him with Mirotic make them in contention for a spot), but if the bulls felt the same way about him why would they add gasol and draft mcdermott? DI basketball is greater than any European league by leaps and bounds and wiggins is 5 years younger and didn't particularly struggle in the 2nd half of the season by any means. Please don't make this into a realistic argument.

When did I say I think Mirotic is better than Love? My point was that if Minn didn't want to tank in 2014, and decided that they had to deal Love, they might want a more NBA ready return than Wiggins + Bennett, which Chicago can offer.

Also, I'm not sure why you think D1 basketball is better than any Euro league "by leaps and bounds."

In comment 11776120 DanMetroMan said:

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paper the defense is going to be absolutely horrendous. Hopefully the defensive scheme is good enough to improve it more than the talent.

Offense as kmed alluded to will likely not be an issue. There are quite a few players who can competently score the basketball on this team.

But as Dan mentioned this team may struggle defensively unless the system really helps cover their deficiencies.

Bargnani though is actually a pretty good man on man defender, its the help D and rotations that he struggles with mightily. If he can grasp the new system he may not be half bad on that end.

has some upside, but def not Wiggins upside. You can say he was playing in a much tougher league and played better then wiggins did in college, but Wiggins is 19 and Mirotic is 23, quite the age difference there.

you might as well go for the homerun and Wiggins has way more upside then anybody else mentioned including Thompson. If you can get just Wiggins/Bennett then MINN would have made one of the better "stars" trades i can remember. If im a MINN fan im saying ill drive Love to CLE for that pair, are they great players now, no, but their upside is huge and when your a team like MINN you go upside.

In comment 11776527 Big_Blue_Wrecking_Crew said:

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In comment 11776120 DanMetroMan said: Quote: paper the defense is going to be absolutely horrendous. Hopefully the defensive scheme is good enough to improve it more than the talent. Offense as kmed alluded to will likely not be an issue. There are quite a few players who can competently score the basketball on this team. But as Dan mentioned this team may struggle defensively unless the system really helps cover their deficiencies. Bargnani though is actually a pretty good man on man defender, its the help D and rotations that he struggles with mightily. If he can grasp the new system he may not be half bad on that end.

The triangle system should really help. I heard 11 of the last 25 championships have been won through the triangle. Isn't that amazing?????

Half of the international picks end up being busts

Has busts...

College or Euro.

Wiggins conference in DI, my bad. He played in a power conference and guarded other top prospects

And half the players from that conference that were drafted are draft busts. The NBA Draft is a total crapshoot. I would absolutely take Wiggins over Mirotic though. No question.

No official deal until 30 days after Wiggins formally signs with Cavs

As ESPN.com reported Sunday, Cleveland plans to formalize a contract with Wiggins this week. A trade involving Wiggins can't be done until 30 days after he signs his contract, which means the Cavs would have to wait a month to officially complete a deal with Minnesota even if the sides come to terms on a swap.

The Cavs' delay in signing Wiggins is not related to their pursuit of Love, sources say, but they ultimately would have to have Wiggins under contract to facilitate such a trade. The packages Cleveland has been offering to Minnesota, sources say, have included Wiggins' projected salary-cap number of $5.5 million, which can be factored into the trade only if he's under contract.

In comment 11776477 giantsfan44ab said:

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DI basketball is greater than any European league by leaps and bounds and wiggins is 5 years younger and didn't particularly struggle in the 2nd half of the season by any means. Please don't make this into a realistic argument.

D-I basketball, even in the power conferences, is by no means stronger than Euroleague competition. Not even close.

In comment 11776963 Audible said:

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In comment 11776477 giantsfan44ab said: Quote: DI basketball is greater than any European league by leaps and bounds and wiggins is 5 years younger and didn't particularly struggle in the 2nd half of the season by any means. Please don't make this into a realistic argument. D-I basketball, even in the power conferences, is by no means stronger than Euroleague competition. Not even close.

+1 Not even close.