stop spluttering and think about the issue. First of all, Tyree isn't a "public figure." He works in an HR capacity for an entertainment corporation. And yes firing or not hiring people for holding certain views smells of authoritarianism and we'd better be careful about applying the idea.
Yes he is a public figure. There's really no disputing that.
It's a glorified sweetheart position for a former player that you want to stay involved in the organization.
I don't understand how the otherwise sensible Giants organization could hire a guy who makes comments that he doesn't want his kids thinking that homosexuals are normal and that he would trade the Giants winning the Super Bowl to stop gay marriage to become the director of player personnel in the summer that the first openly gay football player was drafted and is trying to make a team.
My thinking is, deep down they ataully probably agree with his views.
which pays much better than the norm, then you have to be willing to have your most aggressive and insulting comments scrutinized, and accept the consequences.
Saying that he would give up by far the greatest experience in his public life to prevent gay marriage is pretty aggressive and insulting. Hey, Tyree, if you HADN'T made that catch, would you be up for this particular job?
Um, no.
So, it's appropriate to stop using your platform as a public figure to further your personal beliefs now.
stop spluttering and think about the issue. First of all, Tyree isn't a "public figure." He works in an HR capacity for an entertainment corporation. And yes firing or not hiring people for holding certain views smells of authoritarianism and we'd better be careful about applying the idea.
And again: The Giants are a private organization. There is no "we" about it.
"We" can bitch and moan (or not) all we want. "We" can protest or write angry or supportive letters. "We" cannot fire or hire him for this job. Only the Giants can do that. And they can do it regardless of what "we" say or do.
stop spluttering and think about the issue. First of all, Tyree isn't a "public figure." He works in an HR capacity for an entertainment corporation. And yes firing or not hiring people for holding certain views smells of authoritarianism and we'd better be careful about applying the idea.
OK. You're arguing that the Giants weren't wise to offer Tyree this position given his views on gay marriage. I'm arguing that public statements in the press criticizing hirings of people with non-mainstream views are disturbing and antithetical to democracy.
Just to be precise, those views aren't mutually exclusive. Let me think about it.
I sincerely don't know what this has to do with 'democracy'. (Unless you really want to type 'Free Speech', but know that won't work.) Again, you want to take this very specific man, with very specific views who was given a very specific job and extrapolate it out to all of 'democracy'. It's a very specific and unique circumstance.
Free speech is intrinsic to democracy. There's nothing special about Tyree's job. He has to handle his responsibilities in line with Giants policy. If the Giants have a gay player, Tyree needs to do his job and not let his personal beliefs interfere. If they do interfere with it, that is indeed a problem.
Is this debate about whether Tyree's position qualifies as a "public" face of the Giants? Just in the abstract, would you object to a rabid racist/homophobe working in the Giants accounting department?
I might have to take back what I said about old man Â
... President Obama was firmly anti "Gay Marriage" too.
What does that have to do with us putting a man in charge of counseling impressionable, young men who happens to show tendencies of homophobia?
The Giants didn't hire Obama.
All good points, I don't know what Mara was thinking, and I am now questioning what his views are, and this is why it was such an ignorant move, Oh well, I guess we will see where this goes.
to express his own opinion, but his supporters or sympathizers shouldn't feel he's entitled to a job in which voicing his opinions could potentially harm the organization.
But shit, I ultimately agree with Terps on this one. While I'm sure I'd find Tyree as loony in real life as the older woman who approached me in the BART station the other day and warned me of an impending God-created earthquake, I can somehow reconcile my distaste for this particular perspective of his. Hell, maybe it's just because his side of this issue is losing, and I can acknowledge that's not a good reason. But I think he's ultimately pretty impotent in this arena, and that shit will probably hit the fan if he tries to wield influence towards the aim of homophobia.
it was an odd hire. I'm sure plenty of qualified guys with less baggage could've gotten the job. And it's nice to think that Tyree overcoming his drug problems and turning his life around qualifies him for the position - but we all know the only reason he's working in this type of role is because he pinned that ball to his helmet in SB42.
You are correst, of coarse, but now every move will be under a microscope, something that was really not needed, ir opens up too many questions, and opens the organization up to serious criticizm, you think the Giants enemies will not jump on this? Watch a statement come out of Washington now, or one of his boys will stir the pot.
OK. You're arguing that the Giants weren't wise to offer Tyree this position given his views on gay marriage. I'm arguing that public statements in the press criticizing hirings of people with non-mainstream views are disturbing and antithetical to democracy.
Just to be precise, those views aren't mutually exclusive. Let me think about it.
I sincerely don't know what this has to do with 'democracy'. (Unless you really want to type 'Free Speech', but know that won't work.) Again, you want to take this very specific man, with very specific views who was given a very specific job and extrapolate it out to all of 'democracy'. It's a very specific and unique circumstance.
Free speech is intrinsic to democracy.
Go up to your boss right now. Tell him or her he or she is an incompetent asshole and that a mental challenged monkey could do his or her job better. Then drop a copy of the Constitution and walk away in total confidence that your job is 100% protected.
Quote:
There's nothing special about Tyree's job.
So you figure he's making, what? $7.50 an hour? Anyway, yeah, silly how we're all discussing this non-special hiring of a job that came with all these public announcements. Just another job, like the rest of us.
Quote:
Is this debate about whether Tyree's position qualifies as a "public" face of the Giants? Just in the abstract, would you object to a rabid racist/homophobe working in the Giants accounting department?
Yes. I would want that. There's nothing I would want more. (Beyond a much better analogy.)
I think it is pretty obvious from 3 threads on BBI Â
(small sample not withstanding), the ESPN article, and the comments from the Human Rights Campaign that this at the very least was strange hire PR-wise for the Giants.
PR move to hide their true feelings? its possible but I doubt it
-----------------------------
For starters Monday, several NFL owners, including the Giants’ John Mara and Steve Tisch, gave Sam their support.
"Michael’s announcement will not affect his position on our draft board." -- John Mara
"Michael’s announcement will not affect his position on our draft board," said Mara, without indicating how the Giants rated him.
"Regardless of where you are from, what your religious beliefs are, what your sexual orientation is," said Tisch, "if you are good enough to be on the team, you are part of the family."
OK. You're arguing that the Giants weren't wise to offer Tyree this position given his views on gay marriage. I'm arguing that public statements in the press criticizing hirings of people with non-mainstream views are disturbing and antithetical to democracy.
Just to be precise, those views aren't mutually exclusive. Let me think about it.
I sincerely don't know what this has to do with 'democracy'. (Unless you really want to type 'Free Speech', but know that won't work.) Again, you want to take this very specific man, with very specific views who was given a very specific job and extrapolate it out to all of 'democracy'. It's a very specific and unique circumstance.
Free speech is intrinsic to democracy.
Go up to your boss right now. Tell him or her he or she is an incompetent asshole and that a mental challenged monkey could do his or her job better. Then drop a copy of the Constitution and walk away in total confidence that your job is 100% protected.
Quote:
There's nothing special about Tyree's job.
So you figure he's making, what? $7.50 an hour? Anyway, yeah, silly how we're all discussing this non-special hiring of a job that came with all these public announcements. Just another job, like the rest of us.
Quote:
Is this debate about whether Tyree's position qualifies as a "public" face of the Giants? Just in the abstract, would you object to a rabid racist/homophobe working in the Giants accounting department?
Yes. I would want that. There's nothing I would want more. (Beyond a much better analogy.)
Except the Giants have already hired Tyree...so the only problem with the hiring is the one being conjured up by the article. The Giamts don't seem to have an issue with it, so I think we are actually at a point now of dealing with a free speech issue.
... President Obama was firmly anti "Gay Marriage" too.
What does that have to do with us putting a man in charge of counseling impressionable, young men who happens to show tendencies of homophobia?
The Giants didn't hire Obama.
Well, one, we put a man in charge of protecting gays who showed tendencies of homophobia. Didn't make him ineligible for his (slightly more important job).
And, two, he evolved. Perhaps Tyree has as well.
Nope. We're dealing with a *consequences of free speech* issue. Â
I wish training camp observations would generate as much interest.
Personally, I am completely sympathetic to the Michael Sam issue and believe he should have every opportunity to make it in the NFL, but to expect the Giants to screen the opinions of private citizens whom they hire is an unfair litmus test. Tyree believes what he believes, and I would bet his personal opinions had absolutely zero bearing on the Giant's decision to hire him. Tyree is probably the perfect ex-Giant for this job. He has roots in the area, played a Syracuse (if I recall), struggled as a young player, got in trouble, reformed himself, worked with the current staff leadership, found a niche role on the team and made the most of his opportunity overcoming adversity along the way. Yeah, I'm not going to hire that guy because he doesn't agree with gay marriage.
Now if I was hiring him to represent the Giants on social and league diversity issues, then absolutely not. That would be tone deaf and politically stupid, which the Giants are not. The ESPN commentary is the result of the flavor of the week story (thank you Tony Dungy....also a guy a respect, that was a dumb statement).
Tyree is employed to comment on gay/homosexual issues. I am also quite sure that the Giants informed him the minute he uses his employment with Big Blue to address the issue, that day will be his last with the GMEN.
We all come from different walks of life with different opinions. Just as Michael Sam deserves a shot in the NFL by virtue of his college career and draft status, David Tyree deserves a shot in the Giants organization by virtue of his life experience, playing career, and ability to relate his story to young players. He makes the organization better by being a part of it. That is how good organizations operate. Everything else is noise. ESPN discussing the Giant's hire to Tyree, who has been outspoken concerning his views of gay/homosexual issues, in the wake of the Tony Dungy statement (which was directly about Michael Sam) is simply noise to stir discussion and not even remotely a "bad move" by the Giants.
Holy crap. Look, if you're tired of thinking about the issue, fine, but then don't post.
1) Political statements are different from personal attacks on one's supervisors. I'm with you on that one.
2) So holding non-mainstream opinions should disqualify people from earning above a certain amount of money. What's the threshold - $10/hr? 140% of the official poverty level? Maybe such people should only be allowed to live in non-heated apartments.
3) I'm not discussing this because I care what Tyree thinks (I don't). I'm discussing it because a journalist questioned a private company's hiring because of their political views. Which is damned disturbing.
4) The accountant question wasn't an analogy. It was a serious question intended to clarify the exact issue at stake here. You didn't answer it.
I wish training camp observations would generate as much interest.
Personally, I am completely sympathetic to the Michael Sam issue and believe he should have every opportunity to make it in the NFL, but to expect the Giants to screen the opinions of private citizens whom they hire is an unfair litmus test. Tyree believes what he believes, and I would bet his personal opinions had absolutely zero bearing on the Giant's decision to hire him. Tyree is probably the perfect ex-Giant for this job. He has roots in the area, played a Syracuse (if I recall), struggled as a young player, got in trouble, reformed himself, worked with the current staff leadership, found a niche role on the team and made the most of his opportunity overcoming adversity along the way. Yeah, I'm not going to hire that guy because he doesn't agree with gay marriage.
Now if I was hiring him to represent the Giants on social and league diversity issues, then absolutely not. That would be tone deaf and politically stupid, which the Giants are not. The ESPN commentary is the result of the flavor of the week story (thank you Tony Dungy....also a guy a respect, that was a dumb statement).
Tyree is employed to comment on gay/homosexual issues. I am also quite sure that the Giants informed him the minute he uses his employment with Big Blue to address the issue, that day will be his last with the GMEN.
We all come from different walks of life with different opinions. Just as Michael Sam deserves a shot in the NFL by virtue of his college career and draft status, David Tyree deserves a shot in the Giants organization by virtue of his life experience, playing career, and ability to relate his story to young players. He makes the organization better by being a part of it. That is how good organizations operate. Everything else is noise. ESPN discussing the Giant's hire to Tyree, who has been outspoken concerning his views of gay/homosexual issues, in the wake of the Tony Dungy statement (which was directly about Michael Sam) is simply noise to stir discussion and not even remotely a "bad move" by the Giants.
Tyree's job is to counsel and guide all of the Giants' players, including the gay ones. How are they supposed to look to him for guidance given his comments?
RE: OK, it's bad to hire Tyree because he may say or do something Â
3) I'm discussing it because a journalist questioned a private company's hiring because of their political views. Which is damned disturbing.
That kind of think is what editorials do, and it's odd that you may think they're exempt from the whole "free speech" thing you keep invoking to justify Tyree.
I'm thinking that he will ne helping players get acclimated to the life/routine as an NFL player, what is expected of them and the pressures that go along with that. Also maybe assist them with things like finding affordable housing in the area etc.
I don't really see where his personal views on this enter into the equation as long as he knows to keep them private and not inject them into the work place. I can only assume the Giants organization must feel the same way.
I wish training camp observations would generate as much interest.
Personally, I am completely sympathetic to the Michael Sam issue and believe he should have every opportunity to make it in the NFL, but to expect the Giants to screen the opinions of private citizens whom they hire is an unfair litmus test. Tyree believes what he believes, and I would bet his personal opinions had absolutely zero bearing on the Giant's decision to hire him. Tyree is probably the perfect ex-Giant for this job. He has roots in the area, played a Syracuse (if I recall), struggled as a young player, got in trouble, reformed himself, worked with the current staff leadership, found a niche role on the team and made the most of his opportunity overcoming adversity along the way. Yeah, I'm not going to hire that guy because he doesn't agree with gay marriage.
Now if I was hiring him to represent the Giants on social and league diversity issues, then absolutely not. That would be tone deaf and politically stupid, which the Giants are not. The ESPN commentary is the result of the flavor of the week story (thank you Tony Dungy....also a guy a respect, that was a dumb statement).
Tyree is employed to comment on gay/homosexual issues. I am also quite sure that the Giants informed him the minute he uses his employment with Big Blue to address the issue, that day will be his last with the GMEN.
We all come from different walks of life with different opinions. Just as Michael Sam deserves a shot in the NFL by virtue of his college career and draft status, David Tyree deserves a shot in the Giants organization by virtue of his life experience, playing career, and ability to relate his story to young players. He makes the organization better by being a part of it. That is how good organizations operate. Everything else is noise. ESPN discussing the Giant's hire to Tyree, who has been outspoken concerning his views of gay/homosexual issues, in the wake of the Tony Dungy statement (which was directly about Michael Sam) is simply noise to stir discussion and not even remotely a "bad move" by the Giants.
Tyree's job is to counsel and guide all of the Giants' players, including the gay ones. How are they supposed to look to him for guidance given his comments?
Do the Giants have any openly gay players? Why would an organization hire for a variable they don't believe they have?
Secondly, I think the Giants are far more concerned with young players who struggle with drugs, party lifestyle, and financial issues, given recent personnel history.
Thirdly, I would think Tyree can separate his personal views from his professional life to give good advice to any player. That is what a well reasoned professional does.
Sex life of the player within the scope of the guidance he is supposed to give? I doubt it. Why would it even come up in the interaction. As an employee, I had to deal with people who I disagreed with on matters outside the scope of our business interaction.
The First Amendment isn't the issue here. Free speech can be suppressed by a virulent majority which seeks to inflict damage on its opponents. For example, I found Graziano's article more disturbing than Tyree's comments but I'm not claiming that Graziano should be fired for his column. What I do think is that his view should be evualated and criticized and that he should think about what he is writing more carefully.
Packers Player Development
The Player Development Department is the hub for a wide range of League-sponsored programs designed to meet the needs of players and their families in today's NFL. Since its inception in 1991, more than 9,000 players and significant others have made use of programs administered by the department. Player Development Directors at each club work to ensure the programs are meeting the needs of players and reinforce the departments' commitment to support a culture that delivers a continuum of services to help active and practice squad players succeed in all aspects of their lives.
Player Development is divided into four areas:
Player Assistance Services
Continuing Education Program
Financial Education Program
Career Internship Program
As the director of player development, Davis will be vital in maintaining locker room cohesiveness and overall player health. He will assist players in acclimating to their roles, both on and off the field and in the Green Bay community.
Vision: To provide players and their families an unparalleled positive motivating environment that sets the standard of excellence promoting growth and balance in all areas of their lives.
Mission: To challenge players and their families to be lifelong learners while pursuing continuous improvement in personal growth, academic/career development, money management, social interactions, and family relations during and beyond their careers as NFL players.
He may keep his mouth shut going forward, but the damage is Â
already done. A player of any sexuality other than hetero is very likely not going to trust him or his counsel in their time of need anymore than, say, a black man would trust Donald Sterling.
I staunchly disagree with his beliefs, but I wouldn't have had a problem with the team hiring him in some other capacity. This capacity/role, however, just doesn't fit and should raise some eyebrows.
Holy crap. Look, if you're tired of thinking about the issue, fine, but then don't post.
Not thinking isn't keeping you from posting. (Golly, that insult was even easier turn back on you than your arguments.)
Quote:
1) Political statements are different from personal attacks on one's supervisors. I'm with you on that one.
Jesus. Okay, stand up on your chair and start spouting your political views at work. Then, when security comes for you, say 'First Amendment!!!'
Or just go to a theater and scream 'Fire!!!'. One way or another, you'll learn the limits of Free Speech.
Quote:
2) So holding non-mainstream opinions
You keep repeating this phrase like it's your trump card that means everything. It means nothing. So Ima keep moving.
Quote:
3) I'm not discussing this because I care what Tyree thinks (I don't). I'm discussing it because a journalist questioned a private company's hiring because of their political views. Which is damned disturbing.
You clearly don't understand the difference between the NFL and, say, the gas station down the street. Despite repeated attempts to explain it. So moving on from this one, too.
Quote:
4) The accountant question wasn't an analogy.
Quote:
analogy |əˈnaləjē|
noun ( pl. analogies )
a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification: an analogy between the workings of nature and those of human societies | he interprets logical functions by analogy with machines.
• a correspondence or partial similarity: the syndrome is called deep dysgraphia because of its analogy to deep dyslexia.
• a thing that is comparable to something else in significant respects: works of art were seen as an analogy for works of nature.
• Logic a process of arguing from similarity in known respects to similarity in other respects.
Quote:
It was a serious question intended to clarify the exact issue at stake here. You didn't answer it.
Because if you don't know the difference between all the different jobs, and don't know what an analogy is, you're not a good person to continue trying to have the conversation with. So I'll compromise. I am tired of discussing this with you. Congratulations?
I too have a gay child and have been a Giants fan for more than 55 years.
Of course, Tyree has the right to express his views, no matter how abhorrent I think they may be. But he has gone beyond "free speech" to actively advocate in support of (1) anti-gay marriage policies would treat a significant portion of the population as inferiors and (2) gay conversion policies that would expose gay people (including children) to physical abuse. This is a very bad move by the Giants that insults a substantial number of their supporters. Would he have been hired if he had actively advocated policies that discriminated on the basis of race or religion? Almost certainly not.
The tide of history in the U.S. and many other countries is moving towards increased rights for gay people including the right to marry anyone they love and with whom they want to share their lives. It makes me sad to see the Giants and so many here on BBI on the wrong side of that history.
but I agree with Graziano -- given the nature of the job (in large part , to help players adjust to the non-football aspect of their lives, present and future) it was not a good move, regardless of his football heroics in our past.
That kind of backfired. That place was off my radar but it created numerous lines 10 people deep at the mall in Paramus. Tried it recently. Probably would have been just part of he background to me at the food court otherwise.
Yes he is a public figure. There's really no disputing that.
If he was a cancer, you could send him to the Player Development person for guidance. How is a gay player supposed to go to Tyree in that role?
Quote:
It's a glorified sweetheart position for a former player that you want to stay involved in the organization.
I don't understand how the otherwise sensible Giants organization could hire a guy who makes comments that he doesn't want his kids thinking that homosexuals are normal and that he would trade the Giants winning the Super Bowl to stop gay marriage to become the director of player personnel in the summer that the first openly gay football player was drafted and is trying to make a team.
My thinking is, deep down they ataully probably agree with his views.
I think so, too.
Saying that he would give up by far the greatest experience in his public life to prevent gay marriage is pretty aggressive and insulting. Hey, Tyree, if you HADN'T made that catch, would you be up for this particular job?
Um, no.
So, it's appropriate to stop using your platform as a public figure to further your personal beliefs now.
chops : 11:46 am : link : reply
his own opinion.
has suggested that he doesn't.
And again: The Giants are a private organization. There is no "we" about it.
"We" can bitch and moan (or not) all we want. "We" can protest or write angry or supportive letters. "We" cannot fire or hire him for this job. Only the Giants can do that. And they can do it regardless of what "we" say or do.
Pretty much everything you just wrote is wrong.
Quote:
OK. You're arguing that the Giants weren't wise to offer Tyree this position given his views on gay marriage. I'm arguing that public statements in the press criticizing hirings of people with non-mainstream views are disturbing and antithetical to democracy.
Just to be precise, those views aren't mutually exclusive. Let me think about it.
I sincerely don't know what this has to do with 'democracy'. (Unless you really want to type 'Free Speech', but know that won't work.) Again, you want to take this very specific man, with very specific views who was given a very specific job and extrapolate it out to all of 'democracy'. It's a very specific and unique circumstance.
Free speech is intrinsic to democracy. There's nothing special about Tyree's job. He has to handle his responsibilities in line with Giants policy. If the Giants have a gay player, Tyree needs to do his job and not let his personal beliefs interfere. If they do interfere with it, that is indeed a problem.
Is this debate about whether Tyree's position qualifies as a "public" face of the Giants? Just in the abstract, would you object to a rabid racist/homophobe working in the Giants accounting department?
What does that have to do with us putting a man in charge of counseling impressionable, young men who happens to show tendencies of homophobia?
The Giants didn't hire Obama.
But shit, I ultimately agree with Terps on this one. While I'm sure I'd find Tyree as loony in real life as the older woman who approached me in the BART station the other day and warned me of an impending God-created earthquake, I can somehow reconcile my distaste for this particular perspective of his. Hell, maybe it's just because his side of this issue is losing, and I can acknowledge that's not a good reason. But I think he's ultimately pretty impotent in this arena, and that shit will probably hit the fan if he tries to wield influence towards the aim of homophobia.
Quote:
In comment 11777845 cosmicj said:
Quote:
OK. You're arguing that the Giants weren't wise to offer Tyree this position given his views on gay marriage. I'm arguing that public statements in the press criticizing hirings of people with non-mainstream views are disturbing and antithetical to democracy.
Just to be precise, those views aren't mutually exclusive. Let me think about it.
I sincerely don't know what this has to do with 'democracy'. (Unless you really want to type 'Free Speech', but know that won't work.) Again, you want to take this very specific man, with very specific views who was given a very specific job and extrapolate it out to all of 'democracy'. It's a very specific and unique circumstance.
Free speech is intrinsic to democracy.
Go up to your boss right now. Tell him or her he or she is an incompetent asshole and that a mental challenged monkey could do his or her job better. Then drop a copy of the Constitution and walk away in total confidence that your job is 100% protected.
So you figure he's making, what? $7.50 an hour? Anyway, yeah, silly how we're all discussing this non-special hiring of a job that came with all these public announcements. Just another job, like the rest of us.
Yes. I would want that. There's nothing I would want more. (Beyond a much better analogy.)
PR move to hide their true feelings? its possible but I doubt it
-----------------------------
For starters Monday, several NFL owners, including the Giants’ John Mara and Steve Tisch, gave Sam their support.
"Michael’s announcement will not affect his position on our draft board." -- John Mara
"Michael’s announcement will not affect his position on our draft board," said Mara, without indicating how the Giants rated him.
"Regardless of where you are from, what your religious beliefs are, what your sexual orientation is," said Tisch, "if you are good enough to be on the team, you are part of the family."
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 11777871 vibe4giants said:
Quote:
In comment 11777845 cosmicj said:
Quote:
OK. You're arguing that the Giants weren't wise to offer Tyree this position given his views on gay marriage. I'm arguing that public statements in the press criticizing hirings of people with non-mainstream views are disturbing and antithetical to democracy.
Just to be precise, those views aren't mutually exclusive. Let me think about it.
I sincerely don't know what this has to do with 'democracy'. (Unless you really want to type 'Free Speech', but know that won't work.) Again, you want to take this very specific man, with very specific views who was given a very specific job and extrapolate it out to all of 'democracy'. It's a very specific and unique circumstance.
Free speech is intrinsic to democracy.
Go up to your boss right now. Tell him or her he or she is an incompetent asshole and that a mental challenged monkey could do his or her job better. Then drop a copy of the Constitution and walk away in total confidence that your job is 100% protected.
Quote:
There's nothing special about Tyree's job.
So you figure he's making, what? $7.50 an hour? Anyway, yeah, silly how we're all discussing this non-special hiring of a job that came with all these public announcements. Just another job, like the rest of us.
Quote:
Is this debate about whether Tyree's position qualifies as a "public" face of the Giants? Just in the abstract, would you object to a rabid racist/homophobe working in the Giants accounting department?
Yes. I would want that. There's nothing I would want more. (Beyond a much better analogy.)
Except the Giants have already hired Tyree...so the only problem with the hiring is the one being conjured up by the article. The Giamts don't seem to have an issue with it, so I think we are actually at a point now of dealing with a free speech issue.
Quote:
... President Obama was firmly anti "Gay Marriage" too.
What does that have to do with us putting a man in charge of counseling impressionable, young men who happens to show tendencies of homophobia?
The Giants didn't hire Obama.
Well, one, we put a man in charge of protecting gays who showed tendencies of homophobia. Didn't make him ineligible for his (slightly more important job).
And, two, he evolved. Perhaps Tyree has as well.
Tyree can talk and it's bad but gay couples who set an example by their actions are OK? Double standard?
Tyree can talk and it's bad but gay couples who set an example by their actions are OK? Double standard?
I'm not sure I understand this comparison at all.
Personally, I am completely sympathetic to the Michael Sam issue and believe he should have every opportunity to make it in the NFL, but to expect the Giants to screen the opinions of private citizens whom they hire is an unfair litmus test. Tyree believes what he believes, and I would bet his personal opinions had absolutely zero bearing on the Giant's decision to hire him. Tyree is probably the perfect ex-Giant for this job. He has roots in the area, played a Syracuse (if I recall), struggled as a young player, got in trouble, reformed himself, worked with the current staff leadership, found a niche role on the team and made the most of his opportunity overcoming adversity along the way. Yeah, I'm not going to hire that guy because he doesn't agree with gay marriage.
Now if I was hiring him to represent the Giants on social and league diversity issues, then absolutely not. That would be tone deaf and politically stupid, which the Giants are not. The ESPN commentary is the result of the flavor of the week story (thank you Tony Dungy....also a guy a respect, that was a dumb statement).
Tyree is employed to comment on gay/homosexual issues. I am also quite sure that the Giants informed him the minute he uses his employment with Big Blue to address the issue, that day will be his last with the GMEN.
We all come from different walks of life with different opinions. Just as Michael Sam deserves a shot in the NFL by virtue of his college career and draft status, David Tyree deserves a shot in the Giants organization by virtue of his life experience, playing career, and ability to relate his story to young players. He makes the organization better by being a part of it. That is how good organizations operate. Everything else is noise. ESPN discussing the Giant's hire to Tyree, who has been outspoken concerning his views of gay/homosexual issues, in the wake of the Tony Dungy statement (which was directly about Michael Sam) is simply noise to stir discussion and not even remotely a "bad move" by the Giants.
1) Political statements are different from personal attacks on one's supervisors. I'm with you on that one.
2) So holding non-mainstream opinions should disqualify people from earning above a certain amount of money. What's the threshold - $10/hr? 140% of the official poverty level? Maybe such people should only be allowed to live in non-heated apartments.
3) I'm not discussing this because I care what Tyree thinks (I don't). I'm discussing it because a journalist questioned a private company's hiring because of their political views. Which is damned disturbing.
4) The accountant question wasn't an analogy. It was a serious question intended to clarify the exact issue at stake here. You didn't answer it.
Personally, I am completely sympathetic to the Michael Sam issue and believe he should have every opportunity to make it in the NFL, but to expect the Giants to screen the opinions of private citizens whom they hire is an unfair litmus test. Tyree believes what he believes, and I would bet his personal opinions had absolutely zero bearing on the Giant's decision to hire him. Tyree is probably the perfect ex-Giant for this job. He has roots in the area, played a Syracuse (if I recall), struggled as a young player, got in trouble, reformed himself, worked with the current staff leadership, found a niche role on the team and made the most of his opportunity overcoming adversity along the way. Yeah, I'm not going to hire that guy because he doesn't agree with gay marriage.
Now if I was hiring him to represent the Giants on social and league diversity issues, then absolutely not. That would be tone deaf and politically stupid, which the Giants are not. The ESPN commentary is the result of the flavor of the week story (thank you Tony Dungy....also a guy a respect, that was a dumb statement).
Tyree is employed to comment on gay/homosexual issues. I am also quite sure that the Giants informed him the minute he uses his employment with Big Blue to address the issue, that day will be his last with the GMEN.
We all come from different walks of life with different opinions. Just as Michael Sam deserves a shot in the NFL by virtue of his college career and draft status, David Tyree deserves a shot in the Giants organization by virtue of his life experience, playing career, and ability to relate his story to young players. He makes the organization better by being a part of it. That is how good organizations operate. Everything else is noise. ESPN discussing the Giant's hire to Tyree, who has been outspoken concerning his views of gay/homosexual issues, in the wake of the Tony Dungy statement (which was directly about Michael Sam) is simply noise to stir discussion and not even remotely a "bad move" by the Giants.
Tyree's job is to counsel and guide all of the Giants' players, including the gay ones. How are they supposed to look to him for guidance given his comments?
No, that's not a double standard.
3) I'm discussing it because a journalist questioned a private company's hiring because of their political views. Which is damned disturbing.
That kind of think is what editorials do, and it's odd that you may think they're exempt from the whole "free speech" thing you keep invoking to justify Tyree.
I don't really see where his personal views on this enter into the equation as long as he knows to keep them private and not inject them into the work place. I can only assume the Giants organization must feel the same way.
Quote:
I wish training camp observations would generate as much interest.
Personally, I am completely sympathetic to the Michael Sam issue and believe he should have every opportunity to make it in the NFL, but to expect the Giants to screen the opinions of private citizens whom they hire is an unfair litmus test. Tyree believes what he believes, and I would bet his personal opinions had absolutely zero bearing on the Giant's decision to hire him. Tyree is probably the perfect ex-Giant for this job. He has roots in the area, played a Syracuse (if I recall), struggled as a young player, got in trouble, reformed himself, worked with the current staff leadership, found a niche role on the team and made the most of his opportunity overcoming adversity along the way. Yeah, I'm not going to hire that guy because he doesn't agree with gay marriage.
Now if I was hiring him to represent the Giants on social and league diversity issues, then absolutely not. That would be tone deaf and politically stupid, which the Giants are not. The ESPN commentary is the result of the flavor of the week story (thank you Tony Dungy....also a guy a respect, that was a dumb statement).
Tyree is employed to comment on gay/homosexual issues. I am also quite sure that the Giants informed him the minute he uses his employment with Big Blue to address the issue, that day will be his last with the GMEN.
We all come from different walks of life with different opinions. Just as Michael Sam deserves a shot in the NFL by virtue of his college career and draft status, David Tyree deserves a shot in the Giants organization by virtue of his life experience, playing career, and ability to relate his story to young players. He makes the organization better by being a part of it. That is how good organizations operate. Everything else is noise. ESPN discussing the Giant's hire to Tyree, who has been outspoken concerning his views of gay/homosexual issues, in the wake of the Tony Dungy statement (which was directly about Michael Sam) is simply noise to stir discussion and not even remotely a "bad move" by the Giants.
Tyree's job is to counsel and guide all of the Giants' players, including the gay ones. How are they supposed to look to him for guidance given his comments?
Do the Giants have any openly gay players? Why would an organization hire for a variable they don't believe they have?
Secondly, I think the Giants are far more concerned with young players who struggle with drugs, party lifestyle, and financial issues, given recent personnel history.
Thirdly, I would think Tyree can separate his personal views from his professional life to give good advice to any player. That is what a well reasoned professional does.
http://www.packers.com/team/player-development.html
Packers Player Development
The Player Development Department is the hub for a wide range of League-sponsored programs designed to meet the needs of players and their families in today's NFL. Since its inception in 1991, more than 9,000 players and significant others have made use of programs administered by the department. Player Development Directors at each club work to ensure the programs are meeting the needs of players and reinforce the departments' commitment to support a culture that delivers a continuum of services to help active and practice squad players succeed in all aspects of their lives.
Player Development is divided into four areas:
Player Assistance Services
Continuing Education Program
Financial Education Program
Career Internship Program
As the director of player development, Davis will be vital in maintaining locker room cohesiveness and overall player health. He will assist players in acclimating to their roles, both on and off the field and in the Green Bay community.
Vision: To provide players and their families an unparalleled positive motivating environment that sets the standard of excellence promoting growth and balance in all areas of their lives.
Mission: To challenge players and their families to be lifelong learners while pursuing continuous improvement in personal growth, academic/career development, money management, social interactions, and family relations during and beyond their careers as NFL players.
I staunchly disagree with his beliefs, but I wouldn't have had a problem with the team hiring him in some other capacity. This capacity/role, however, just doesn't fit and should raise some eyebrows.
Not thinking isn't keeping you from posting. (Golly, that insult was even easier turn back on you than your arguments.)
1) Political statements are different from personal attacks on one's supervisors. I'm with you on that one.
Jesus. Okay, stand up on your chair and start spouting your political views at work. Then, when security comes for you, say 'First Amendment!!!'
Or just go to a theater and scream 'Fire!!!'. One way or another, you'll learn the limits of Free Speech.
2) So holding non-mainstream opinions
You keep repeating this phrase like it's your trump card that means everything. It means nothing. So Ima keep moving.
You clearly don't understand the difference between the NFL and, say, the gas station down the street. Despite repeated attempts to explain it. So moving on from this one, too.
analogy |əˈnaləjē|
noun ( pl. analogies )
a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification: an analogy between the workings of nature and those of human societies | he interprets logical functions by analogy with machines.
• a correspondence or partial similarity: the syndrome is called deep dysgraphia because of its analogy to deep dyslexia.
• a thing that is comparable to something else in significant respects: works of art were seen as an analogy for works of nature.
• Logic a process of arguing from similarity in known respects to similarity in other respects.
Because if you don't know the difference between all the different jobs, and don't know what an analogy is, you're not a good person to continue trying to have the conversation with. So I'll compromise. I am tired of discussing this with you. Congratulations?
Of course, Tyree has the right to express his views, no matter how abhorrent I think they may be. But he has gone beyond "free speech" to actively advocate in support of (1) anti-gay marriage policies would treat a significant portion of the population as inferiors and (2) gay conversion policies that would expose gay people (including children) to physical abuse. This is a very bad move by the Giants that insults a substantial number of their supporters. Would he have been hired if he had actively advocated policies that discriminated on the basis of race or religion? Almost certainly not.
The tide of history in the U.S. and many other countries is moving towards increased rights for gay people including the right to marry anyone they love and with whom they want to share their lives. It makes me sad to see the Giants and so many here on BBI on the wrong side of that history.
Big Al : 11:23 am : link : reply
If certain people here would have protested him being drafted by the Giants back then if they knew what we now know about him.
I wondered a similar question; if any fans will be boycotting the Giants as some customers boycotted Chick-fil-A?