NFT: The online reaction of cops to the death of Eric Garner

They should have stopped choking him when he was laying face down on the ground with several officers on top of him. This really isn't a gray area.

so they are justified in being violent assholes" line of reasoning simply doesn't hold water. There are lots of jobs out there more dangerous than being a cop -- and the most common cause of death for cops is routine traffic accidents.

As a society, we need to stop militarizing our police, both in terms of equipment and mentality, and start holding them more accountable for their actions. That means we all have to stop making excuses for the amped-up meathead who abuse their authority.
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If you don't want cops to beat you down, don't fucking resist. It's that simple. Maybe the cops did act a little too forceful but the bottom line is if this guy stands down he's alive today.

It's not that simple. You're saying this from the point of view of someone (I assume) level-headed and non erratic. Cops (esp urban ones) consistently deal with extremely erratic, oftentimes mentally ill people. You're basically saying to unstable, maybe ill people "don't be that way".

That's not to say resisting is okay. You or I as level-headed, functioning adults would not resist and would have zero excuse if we did. But this guy does not seem like he's all there and it's the cops fucking jobs to be able to diffuse a situation without killing people (a caveat being if the person is armed, then I tend to have more sympathy for over the top force).

This was disgusting. It's the dude's fucking windpipe. It was the same shit with Kelly Thomas. They get away with it. Need policy changes from Bratten.

Sidenote: cell phone cameras are great. A huge net plus for society.

So would a response by the 4 EMT technicians on site who instead stood and watched.

Why didn't anyone check to see how he was doing?

But what about the main theme of the thread: how other cops and ex-cops are reacting to the incident? Aren't there posts just a tad disturbing even to the reflexive cop defenders?

their

In comment 11778748 santacruzom said:

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But what about the main theme of the thread: how other cops and ex-cops are reacting to the incident? Aren't there posts just a tad disturbing even to the reflexive cop defenders?

Tazing may have been better but police officers in NYC don't carry takers. Also What if he has a heart attack after being taxed though? I'm sure the outrage would be the same.

At least no one in this one said "You see these fists? They're about to fuck you up"

on a daily basis. You really don't have any sense of what exactly the police are really dealing with.

I am a criminal defense attorney and yet I side with these officers. I tell all my clients, DONT FIGHT WITH THE POLICE. DONT RESIST ARREST.

Above every other duty these officers have is the duty to return home alive and in one piece at the end of the shift. If you don't comprehend what they have to deal with every day, then you can't sympathize with them when they encounter an enormous human being, with a long record, who simply won't act as instructed, and who would be capable of inflicting serious bodily injury or death upon any individual cop.

If he had simply put his hands behind his back as instructed, he'd be alive. An if he was unbalanced and couldn't follow the instructions, then the officers have to protect themselves first, That's what they did in the course of their duty to all of us.

In comment 11778759 FatHeadTommy said:

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on a daily basis. You really don't have any sense of what exactly the police are really dealing with.

Yeah, but I still don't think I'd be the sort of cop who either commits such actions, or cheers on those who do.

it is prototypical excessive force. There were 5 or 6 cops smushing this man's face to the concrete, choking him out, and laying on top of him. Two other cops were nearby. The victim had no weapon and had his hands were not even attempting to touch any of the officers--- they weren't even closed in a fist. I don't even see how he was resisting arrest. This video disturbed and disgusted me more than any I've seen in some time. The entire incident was non-threatening and non-violent, unless the victim did something heinous that was edited out.

This looks like manslaughter to me. And as for the poster's friend who said that you can't talk while choking. That is patently untrue. I watched a man choke to death right in front of me once, saying the exact same thing, until he couldn't say it anymore.

Cops share a worldview and need reassurance from one another. That they lack reasonable judgement and intelligence to see it any other way is a fact citizens need to be aware of.

In comment 11778748 santacruzom said:

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But what about the main theme of the thread: how other cops and ex-cops are reacting to the incident? Aren't there posts just a tad disturbing even to the reflexive cop defenders?

santa, yes, that actually gives some insight into the mentality of many cops.

I mean the getting away with it part.

And you know they will...

Because he's this big fat guy...

This sort of arrest probably happens countless times every day: some fat guy liquored up at the townie bar in South Dakota, some fat guy causing a scene on the corner in South Central, some fat chick stealing people's beach equipment on South Beach. Arrests where the guy puts up some nonsensical token resistance.

We don't hear about countless deaths every day. Why is that? Because those arrests happen properly and the person doesn't die. Police detain them, toss them in the back of a squad car, and dump their fat ass in a cell for the night.

So, I ask the Police Defense Force on this thread: if it's so hard and we don't know how it can be done and there's such danger, why in the hell is it able to be done routinely with no incident? And if it can be done routinely with no incident, why can't you admit that these officers, unlike the countless others, fucked up royally?

is a lot different than a civilian. We see a guy selling cigs and trying to give people what they want, they see a very large and potentially dangerous perp not complying.

That said, the video looks awful.

I'm not really sure what the right thing is here because I knew guys that made side cash back in the day selling what they could out of their trunks and none were hardcore.. just guys trying to get some extra scratch.

should not automatically result in one's death

Besides the scenarios you made up, Show me where a 400lb resisting men routinely get arrested without anyone getting hurt. There's nothing routine about arresting a large individual who is resisting. Did the cop make a bad choice in grabbing his throat? Yes, but don't make it seem like its easy and happens everyday. In the heat of the moment facing some one more than twice ur size a rash decision can easily be made. No one here knows how they would've reacted if put in the same situation.


In comment 11778798 Kyle said:

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Because he's this big fat guy... This sort of arrest probably happens countless times every day: some fat guy liquored up at the townie bar in South Dakota, some fat guy causing a scene on the corner in South Central, some fat chick stealing people's beach equipment on South Beach. Arrests where the guy puts up some nonsensical token resistance. We don't hear about countless deaths every day. Why is that? Because those arrests happen properly and the person doesn't die. Police detain them, toss them in the back of a squad car, and dump their fat ass in a cell for the night. So, I ask the Police Defense Force on this thread: if it's so hard and we don't know how it can be done and there's such danger, why in the hell is it able to be done routinely with no incident? And if it can be done routinely with no incident, why can't you admit that these officers, unlike the countless others, fucked up royally?

The majority of us understand what an individual or ourselves "should" do in the case that we are apprehended by a law enforcement officer. That does not mean that we believe that a person necessarily "has" to act in such a matter without being assaulted by an officer, nor would I expect this to occur

I'd also add that we have thousands of military veterans that I'm sure have faced situations and challenges relatively similar to those faced by police officers. I'd be curious to hear their opinion on matters such as these

In comment 11778547 Joey in VA said:

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But what I've seen over the past few years up close with family members who ran afoul of the law has really soured me on law enforcement a bit.

I was a staunch conservative Republican white businessman, the exact demographic that would be defending the police, and I used to. But I've seen too much. The profession draws too many bad apples. I know they try to weed them out, but there are certain guys who crave power and authority and they can get it on the force, not having to go to college or achieve anything that would give them the status they crave, just a relatively short training course and bingo ... power and authority. Not saying this is the norm for cops, just that there's too many.

for you then RiverMike.

I agree with it. Cops typically leaned right despite being unionized public employees Republicans typically favored the tough on crime approach that kept them well funded and happy. Now with our debt times are changing and a Libertarian/Tea Party/Some might say quasi -Anarchistic voice is getting louder regarding cops that differ from their traditional friendly tones.

Not good for police when the traditional liberal left and the new far right Tea Party find this common ground. Senators Booker and Paul even agree on this.


I think the political problem for Republicans is do they really need yet another large group of people to ostracize? Take all the help you can get politically. Idealogically though, this article speaks volumes.
It's Time Conservatives Stop Defending Police - ( New Window )

In comment 11778840 Mr. Nickels said:

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for you then RiverMike. I agree with it. Cops typically leaned right despite being unionized public employees Republicans typically favored the tough on crime approach that kept them well funded and happy. Now with our debt times are changing and a Libertarian/Tea Party/Some might say quasi -Anarchistic voice is getting louder regarding cops that differ from their traditional friendly tones. Not good for police when the traditional liberal left and the new far right Tea Party find this common ground. Senators Booker and Paul even agree on this. I think the political problem for Republicans is do they really need yet another large group of people to ostracize? Take all the help you can get politically. Idealogically though, this article speaks volumes. It's Time Conservatives Stop Defending Police - ( New Window )

Nickles, notice I said "was". Can't comment much more than that without triggering the "political" sirens.

I never saw a thread on the cop in California beating the woman on the side of the road. That was one of the most indefensible thing I've ever seen.

Unfortunately many cops are now more aligned as military gang members than keepers of the peace. Police take to serve and protect as "protect me first" and screw the public. Its not all cops or all police squads but certainly too many. They are losing across the board the trust of the public they swore to protect. A change is gonna come. End rant.

but I feel if he did not resist arrest it would not have happened. I have been arrested 5 times and weather I agreed with the cops or not, I complied, went to court and was never convicted of anything.

I just believe if an officer declares you under arrest you should comply and follow their direction. If you did nothing wrong the court should be able to figure that out..

I do not agree with telling an officer, NO you are not arresting me

With the officer. However, there was no reason for the escalation of force from the officer. The lack of first aid was terrible. In defense of the officers who arrive after, they have no idea what they're walking into. U pull up and and guys are wrestling w someone. You jump in and help no questions asked.

Exactly. No thinking either. Just jump in to be in. That's the problem.

objecting to your civil rights being violated? Should that get you beaten or killed? Of course you comply to keep from getting beaten or killed. So no matter how unlawful or humiliating an officers orders are, comply or be beaten. Not saying that was the case here, just saying its a sad state of affairs if we all cower no matter what the circumstances out of fear for our lives. That woman on the highway did nothing to deserve the punches being rained down on her by the gloved fists of the cop while she lay on the ground trying to cover up.

a dozen people being tried for murder.

Forget losing their jobs...they should be tried for the crime they committed just like anybody else would be.

In comment 11779101 Go Terps said:

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a dozen people being tried for murder. Forget losing their jobs...they should be tried for the crime they committed just like anybody else would be.

I agree wholeheartedly, but I figured I would toss out "how about we at least fire them?" to see if there'd be a defense force for even that level of repercussion for killing another man.

Sadly, there is...

Are absolutely pathetic.

for cops to just search you, profile, you and harass you just because and us great citizens should just obey and not being upset that you are being arrested for doing nothing..

And i guess it's ok that they know this guy has been selling cigarettes that can just shake him down again and arrest him..And when he saying, "I can't breathe", maybe he's lying and has a shotgun in his wait and going to pull it out and shoot all 5 police officers..


it's all well and dandy until you find yourself consistently frisked and harassed by police when at some point, you get tired of it..Or find yourself getting arrested for doing nothing but breaking up a fight..

also filled in a point I was unaware of.

He had committed no crime. He was helping break up a fight. I assume they presumed him to be involved but by all accounts, he actually did nothing wrong here.

it was part of the original article in the news..aparrently a lot of here are omitting that little known fact..

In comment 11778767 WideRight said:

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Cops share a worldview and need reassurance from one another. That they lack reasonable judgement and intelligence to see it any other way is a fact citizens need to be aware of.

Sorry, this is pretty much BS.

They do somewhat share a worldview based on where they work. They absolutely do not lack reasonable judgement and intelligence, unless you want to go on an individual by individual basis.

The difficulty IMO with the police and their "worldview" is that it is entirely shaped by their environment. When you deal day in and day out with (for the most part) the dregs of society it can be very difficult for it to not change your view towards people in general.

I have a friend who is an officer that went from "working the beat" to vice, to finally a cushy desk job working directly for the commissioner. In our conversations about this type of stuff he always tells me that when he was on the street and working vice, his view of people completely changed- especially working vice. I'm not sure about other cities, but here in KC most of the police work in vice involves children. Try to deal with that day in and day out and not have you view changed.

Now that said- it absolutely doesn't absolve cops like the one's in this instance- they still have to act within the law.

It does, however add a little understanding as to why the police have this different worldview in the first place.

What's the answer? I have no idea. But to just label the police as stupid, ignorant brutes is absolutely not it.

And as to the OP: those comments are absolutely horrid and I really hope they aren't a good representation of what most officers think of this particular incident.

In comment 11779417 Greg from LI said:

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What is the story behind that gif? It's really disturbing.

I just did a search for "stop resisting gif"

In comment 11779417 Greg from LI said:

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If this gif is from Austin, TX, then that girl may have been a jogger who jaywalked. The cop was calling out to her but, she had on headphones and couldn't hear him until it was too late. The Spirit of Justice then Ray Riced her.

This is the girl in Austin

Was the apparent lack of compassion when it appeared he was dying. As I read it neither the police or medics made any attempts at CPR so basically just let him die.

He of course very well may have died anyway, but how do they act do cavalier about the mans life?

The arrest, the choke hold all of that can possibly be explained away to some extent because of his size and maybe resisting arrest, so even if you put that aside how do they just let a man die and apparently if what I read was correct do little to nothing? I find the lack of concern or compassion is disgusting.

but resisting arrest is always the worst decision you can make. I still don't get why people do it, and never will.

do not include the cop who put on the so-called choke-hold. He did not have any damage to his windpipe, nor any inability to breathe.

The top 5, imo, are the sergeant at the scene who made no attempt to control the situation or have his condition checked
while his was lying there moaning "I can't breathe," and the medical technicians who made no attempt to intervene in order to check his vitals. They killed him, not a pretty weak-assed choke-hold.

I meant from the choke-hold per se. As it turns out, he was having a heart attack. I kind of feel sorry for the original cop, who is taking most of the blame. He was attempting to take down someone twice his size, who had a horrible arrest record and was clearly resisting. It turned out the guy may not have been guilty of the crime charged, but that isn't the point. No one checked his vitals as he lay there moaning, with a sergeant and 4 medics on the scene. THAT's the point.

All the BS that this was a racially motivated arrest is just that. This was a very large albeit small-time career criminal.

Btw, I still don't see why a tazer wouldn't have been preferable to wrestling with a grizzly bear. Less risk to all involved, and they surely would have checked his vitals after a taze.

In comment 11779643 manh george said:

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I meant from the choke-hold per se. As it turns out, he was having a heart attack. I kind of feel sorry for the original cop, who is taking most of the blame. He was attempting to take down someone twice his size, who had a horrible arrest record and was clearly resisting. It turned out the guy may not have been guilty of the crime charged, but that isn't the point. No one checked his vitals as he lay there moaning, with a sergeant and 4 medics on the scene. THAT's the point. All the BS that this was a racially motivated arrest is just that. This was a very large albeit small-time career criminal. Btw, I still don't see why a tazer wouldn't have been preferable to wrestling with a grizzly bear. Less risk to all involved, and they surely would have checked his vitals after a taze.

Do they carry tazers? I thought someone above mentioned that they do not.

Seems like you agree with the worldview issue, but object to labeling it a judgement and intelligence issue. But you're appalled by the comments and find the video disturbing?

Your corect its not right to label an entire group, but in cases where they weild significant power I don't think its wise to consider it any other way.

If MO is for Missouri, have you had a chance to speak to any NYPD about the case? Even the upstanding officers are very dismissive. One went into great detail about how the officer attempted to grad him around the shoulders, but the guy was so big it inadvertantly became a chokehold - honest mistake in the line of duty. Another's issue wasn't defending the officer, but was extremely upset that Braxton wnet public before any investigation was complete - police will never be able to police anymore. And these are guys I like...

In comment 11779662 WideRight said:

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Seems like you agree with the worldview issue, but object to labeling it a judgement and intelligence issue. But you're appalled by the comments and find the video disturbing? Your corect its not right to label an entire group, but in cases where they weild significant power I don't think its wise to consider it any other way. If MO is for Missouri, have you had a chance to speak to any NYPD about the case? Even the upstanding officers are very dismissive. One went into great detail about how the officer attempted to grad him around the shoulders, but the guy was so big it inadvertantly became a chokehold - honest mistake in the line of duty. Another's issue wasn't defending the officer, but was extremely upset that Braxton wnet public before any investigation was complete - police will never be able to police anymore. And these are guys I like...

Yeah- I wasn't clear. The part I thought was BS was labeling them all as not being intelligent and not being able to reason.

Secondary to this, I'm glad to see NYC taking putting the necessary manpower out on the street to battle the loosey cigarette epidemic.

In comment 11779417 Greg from LI said: Here's the backstory on that gif

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Backstory : PHOENIX - An officer is under investigation for using excessive force after YouTube video is posted of him pushing a teenage girl against a wall, knocking her to the ground. Phoenix Police Officer Patrick Larrison has been placed on administrative while the criminal and internal investigation is underway. The use-of-force case incident caught on tape. A Phoenix Police employee saw the video and told supervisors. Back in January, at Ombudsman Charter School, the 15-year-old girl was caught drinking at school. When her mom arrived, she and her mom got into a physical fight, and the police were called. She was apparently belligerent and walked away from officers. That's when Officer Larrison used an 'impact push' to stop her and handcuff her.

She was belligerant and walked away, so clearly the only recourse to stop a 15 year old girl was for a grown man to lay her out NFL-style.