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NFT: NYT Ed. Bd. calls for federal legalization of marijuana

Dunedin81 : 7/27/2014 5:24 pm
The Editorial Board called for an end to the federal prohibition on marijuana, to pave the way for state policies to regulate the issue. They point out, among other things, the problem with having state policy exist at the whim of federal enforcement. This isn't quite the start of a national conversation on the subject but along with the recent state policy changes this could be perceived as a milestone.
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(non-MJ) drug and gun arrests will dip...  
Dunedin81 : 7/27/2014 7:23 pm : link
as the ubiquitous "I smelled weed" explanation for warrantless searches will go by the wayside.
only 38 years  
oipolloi : 7/27/2014 7:31 pm : link
after this man
Legalize It - ( New Window )
RE: (non-MJ) drug and gun arrests will dip...  
Rob in NYC : 7/27/2014 7:39 pm : link
In comment 11783363 Dunedin81 said:
Quote:
as the ubiquitous "I smelled weed" explanation for warrantless searches will go by the wayside.


Yup, but think about how often federal, state and local law enforcement budgets actually decline...there will be a gap that will be filled with?
A lot of pot farmers are getting hit hard with  
kickerpa16 : 7/27/2014 8:32 pm : link
drought conditions. I think it takes 6 gallons of water per plant, making it one of the least water friendly plant.
Well, wouldn't that be ironic  
Wuphat : 7/27/2014 8:44 pm : link
if complete legalization were to come around right at the time that climate change makes it no longer feasible.

(I'm only partly kidding)
'I smelled weed' will still be around  
JohnF : 7/27/2014 8:45 pm : link
It will just be used for DWI/DUI, the same way it's used for alcohol. We'll see "If you smoke, don't drive" commercials, too.

What will drive this more than anything is other states seeing Colorado's coffers fill from taxing marijuana.There aren't that many new revenue sources, and States/Cities need money desperately.
Challenging to put into words  
Overseer : 7/27/2014 9:00 pm : link
just how utterly daft marijuana prohibition is. Forget the destroyed lives and the fact that otherwise law-abiding adults have to break the law merely b/c they like a toke instead of (or on a good night, in addition to) some booze...doesn't it just feel gross that we still have draped upon us the insecure and sanctimonious film of the Nancy Reagan "oh please think of the children" 1980s? Ideally such a thing is shed like the high-school tag along friend who's now a 35 y/o drunk squatting in his home town. Still he clings on.

Brutal discussion on this issue on MTP this morning. Tin-eared goobers joke around about "grass is for walking on" and "what's the NYT smoking?" while they and the moderator fail to even mention the disastrous drug war. It was really an embarrassing segment.

Referendums like those in CO/WA are, generally speaking, collectively bad for the country, but in this case I'll give them a pass because the craven pols prefer the easy-blame (although mild credit to the Prez for laying off those states, for now). Hopefully the toothpaste is out of the tube.
RE: Well, wouldn't that be ironic  
kickerpa16 : 7/27/2014 9:05 pm : link
In comment 11783405 Wuphat said:
Quote:
if complete legalization were to come around right at the time that climate change makes it no longer feasible.

(I'm only partly kidding)


Yeah. Water in the San Juoaquin Valley in CA (some absurd amount of American produce comes from here) is being charged at a rate about 10x normal levels.

Marijuana will be legalized eventually, but widespread farming will be curtailed in the west with continued drought (and perhaps worsening).
An important thing to take into consideration  
Gary from The East End : Admin : 7/27/2014 9:19 pm : link
It's hard to overstate just how opposed the law enforcement establishment is to this. They almost always oppose any kind of legalization or decriminalization efforts, including those for medical purposes.

I'm generally pro-police  
Mike from SI : 7/27/2014 9:29 pm : link
but F the law enforcement establishment's agenda of what the country's substantive laws should be (outside of the ones that have direct bearing on their jobs). There job is to enforce the laws WE pass.
RE: This will happen, sooner or later,  
bradshaw44 : 7/27/2014 9:49 pm : link
In comment 11783343 Rob in NYC said:
Quote:
And we will very likely be better off for it - there will be a number of second and third order effects that will be interesting to see...


Well, that's presumptuous. I mean, I've seen what pot can do for people that don't need it, and people that do. It is just like alcohol addiction in that sense. The best to come from it will be nobody getting arrested for that BS anymore.

The tax money will be a nice band aid for 8 minutes until the government fucks that up and pisses it away.

IMO the only good or change that comes is nobody being arrested anymore. That's about it.
RE: I'm generally pro-police  
Cam in MO : 7/27/2014 9:49 pm : link
In comment 11783431 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
but F the law enforcement establishment's agenda of what the country's substantive laws should be (outside of the ones that have direct bearing on their jobs). There job is to enforce the laws WE pass.


+100
RE: An important thing to take into consideration  
Dunedin81 : 7/27/2014 10:09 pm : link
In comment 11783427 Gary from The East End said:
Quote:
It's hard to overstate just how opposed the law enforcement establishment is to this. They almost always oppose any kind of legalization or decriminalization efforts, including those for medical purposes.


The law enforcement establishment, whatever that is, may oppose it, but the rank and file whom I know generally don't really enjoy busting people for doing the sort of crap their friends are still doing and that many of them did themselves when they were younger, ala underage drinking. As I said above they like that it can lead to the discovery of other, more serious crime, like the discovery of hard drugs and weapons, but actually having to show up in court and go through Fourth Amendment hearings to get a suspended sentence and a few hundred bucks worth of fine isn't their idea of a good time either.
RE: RE: This will happen, sooner or later,  
Rob in NYC : 7/27/2014 10:21 pm : link
In comment 11783439 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:
In comment 11783343 Rob in NYC said:


Quote:


And we will very likely be better off for it - there will be a number of second and third order effects that will be interesting to see...



Well, that's presumptuous. I mean, I've seen what pot can do for people that don't need it, and people that do. It is just like alcohol addiction in that sense. The best to come from it will be nobody getting arrested for that BS anymore.

The tax money will be a nice band aid for 8 minutes until the government fucks that up and pisses it away.

IMO the only good or change that comes is nobody being arrested anymore. That's about it.


Presumptuous? Nah, more like common sense - I doubt the unraveling of a multi-decade, billion dollar enforcement effort, the creation of a multi-billion dollar agricultural, retail and consumer industry (to name a couple of implications) have completely foreseen implications. To suggest that while the overall direction will very likely be positive but not entirely full of wine and roses seems practical, not presumptuous.
Yes, it's important to realize there will be serious downsides to this  
Gary from The East End : Admin : 7/27/2014 10:33 pm : link
Having another legal intoxicant on the market is going to have all kinds of negative effects, especially if it's allowed to be commercialized and marketed like alcohol and tobacco.

I think the positive effects are going to far outweigh the negative, but any advocate of this policy should familiarize themselves with the likely and possible bad outcomes.

Mark Kleiman writes about this and while I don't always agree with him, he almost always has something intelligent to say.
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It has certainly been oversold by its champions...  
Dunedin81 : 7/27/2014 10:42 pm : link
to me the big issue is going to be DUID. It's much easier for administrative purposes to certify a bunch of LEOs on a breath test than to do blood tests, which require the presence of the chain of custody and if they fail (for instance, the blood coagulates) they can't be immediately corrected the way a breath test can as there isn't any near-in-time feedback.

As you said Gary it's not that it outweighs the likely positives, but it is a consideration.

Also crop substitution, especially one that requires extra water, could have its own attendant problems, as it seems to have done in parts of California.
I'm torn about this...  
Dan in the Springs : 7/28/2014 12:24 am : link
Personally I am fine with those who like to get stoned being able to choose to do so. I'm not sure we become a better society if we increase the percentage of the population who end up addicted to this stuff. And quite frankly my concern is that legalization will only make it easier for minors to consume, which I cannot believe is a good thing.

So, mixed emotions. It prefer we give it a decade or two to see the one term effects in states that have chosen to lead the way. We'll know more about the implications then than we do now.
RE: It has certainly been oversold by its champions...  
Sgrcts : 7/28/2014 1:09 am : link
In comment 11783469 Dunedin81 said:
Quote:
to me the big issue is going to be DUID. It's much easier for administrative purposes to certify a bunch of LEOs on a breath test than to do blood tests, which require the presence of the chain of custody and if they fail (for instance, the blood coagulates) they can't be immediately corrected the way a breath test can as there isn't any near-in-time feedback.

As you said Gary it's not that it outweighs the likely positives, but it is a consideration.

Also crop substitution, especially one that requires extra water, could have its own attendant problems, as it seems to have done in parts of California.


The problem with the DUID argument is- its already illegal to drive high. People aren't going to be more likely to drive high because weed is legal then they are currently.
RE: I'm torn about this...  
Sgrcts : 7/28/2014 1:14 am : link
In comment 11783493 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
Personally I am fine with those who like to get stoned being able to choose to do so. I'm not sure we become a better society if we increase the percentage of the population who end up addicted to this stuff. And quite frankly my concern is that legalization will only make it easier for minors to consume, which I cannot believe is a good thing.

So, mixed emotions. It prefer we give it a decade or two to see the one term effects in states that have chosen to lead the way. We'll know more about the implications then than we do now.


There is literally ZERO barrier for minors to obtain marijuana. The only ones who think its hard for teenagers to get marijuana is out of touch adults.
Its being "forbidden" is one of the things that makes it attractive  
oipolloi : 7/28/2014 3:02 am : link
to teenagers

if mom and dad are smoking weed, it suddenly becomes way less cool

The hypocracy of the Times position is that  
Hammer : 7/28/2014 6:54 am : link
their human resources department will continue to insist on pre-employment and post injury mandatory drug screenings which will result in refusal to hire and discipline if the subject tests positive for THC.
RE: Its being  
Cam in MO : 7/28/2014 6:58 am : link
In comment 11783508 oipolloi said:
Quote:
to teenagers

if mom and dad are smoking weed, it suddenly becomes way less cool


Which is exactly why underage drinking hasn't been and never will be a problem.

One of the big things I worry about is the replacement drug. The folks that stand to lose the most money aren't all going to say, "this is great! Now we can be legal and pay taxes!" They'll fill the void with something else, I would think. Heroin use is already on the rise. I'd hate to see it get even worse.

As Gary said, it's not all roses, but the benefits outweigh the costs.


It's too easy to get it  
UConn4523 : 7/28/2014 7:01 am : link
if a teenager want it, it's theirs. Easier than getting alcohol (really can only steal from parents).

That should not be the reason MJ isn't legalized.
The fact that it is already illegal to drive high...  
Dunedin81 : 7/28/2014 7:20 am : link
is only partly relevant. People restrain themselves because it is illegal to be high (possession by consumption, not to mention having the thing with you) and to admit to smoking is to admit to a crime. If it's legal you don't necessarily have those same restraints. When I was shy of 21 I would never drive after consuming anything alcoholic for that reason. I was not intoxicated but for my purposes the legal limit was .02.
it's harder for a 25 year old...  
Sonic Youth : 7/28/2014 7:46 am : link
... to get weed than a 16 year old.
I'd make it mandatory for everyone 18 and older  
Headhunter : 7/28/2014 7:55 am : link
smoke weed every day and chill the fuck out
It should be a state issue.  
Ira : 7/28/2014 8:13 am : link
The federal government should get out of it.
I'm ambivalent about the issue while agreeing with the NYT  
Bill L : 7/28/2014 8:46 am : link
First and foremost, I agree with the NYT (like many others, it's a rarity) because I strongly believe that it's a state issue and the Feds should gtfo as they should and gazillions of other things they stick their nose in.

Second, I do believe it's harmful, or at least that the lack of harm is overstated. Either with respect to lung damage or as seems manifest, mental acuity. Gateway? I don't know. I also think it can be evaluated on its own and not relative to tobacco or alcohol. More of a why add one more as opposed to a If they let this in, then why not this.

Having said that, I am not opposed to legalization. If it was on the ballot I would skip the question. It doesn't effect me since it's not behavior that I engage in but adults are big people and should make their own decision and then accept what consequences may (or may not follow.

I am amazed however, how something so inconsequential could make people go crazy. People taking time out of their lives to advocate or protest or whatever.... It's just a trivial thing. No principle, no value, no life-changing event. I mean, if today they outlawed foie gras (damn they did that already :( or even bacon I would say, "that sucks because I really love foie gras and bacon" and then I would go to work and maybe, during break I would fondly remember the good old days when you could eat whatever the heck you wanted to eat.

People can do what they want....however, I have to say, if I knew a person was a dope smoker (or had posted liberal missives on fb for that matter), they better be *tons* more astounding on their resume for me to hire them over a competing person. The same would likely go for how valuation and evaluation as an employee.
I don't follow this:  
Cam in MO : 7/28/2014 8:55 am : link
Quote:
I am amazed however, how something so inconsequential could make people go crazy. People taking time out of their lives to advocate or protest or whatever.... It's just a trivial thing. No principle, no value, no life-changing event.



Considering the amount of people incarcerated for possession/dealing and the prevalence of mandatory sentencing for multiple offenses- I'd say it is anything but inconsequential, even for folks that aren't associated with the drug in any way.

There's a reason we lead the developed world in incarcerated citizens. In fact, if anything that's the gateway IMO.



RE: it's harder for a 25 year old...  
UConn4523 : 7/28/2014 8:58 am : link
In comment 11783526 Sonic Youth said:
Quote:
... to get weed than a 16 year old.


How?
RE: I don't follow this:  
buford : 7/28/2014 9:11 am : link
In comment 11783576 Cam in MO said:
Quote:


Quote:


I am amazed however, how something so inconsequential could make people go crazy. People taking time out of their lives to advocate or protest or whatever.... It's just a trivial thing. No principle, no value, no life-changing event.




Considering the amount of people incarcerated for possession/dealing and the prevalence of mandatory sentencing for multiple offenses- I'd say it is anything but inconsequential, even for folks that aren't associated with the drug in any way.

There's a reason we lead the developed world in incarcerated citizens. In fact, if anything that's the gateway IMO.




I think Bill's point is that if pot is illegal, just don't smoke it. Until it becomes legal.
RE: RE: I don't follow this:  
Bill L : 7/28/2014 9:20 am : link
In comment 11783584 buford said:
Quote:
In comment 11783576 Cam in MO said:


Quote:




Quote:


I am amazed however, how something so inconsequential could make people go crazy. People taking time out of their lives to advocate or protest or whatever.... It's just a trivial thing. No principle, no value, no life-changing event.




Considering the amount of people incarcerated for possession/dealing and the prevalence of mandatory sentencing for multiple offenses- I'd say it is anything but inconsequential, even for folks that aren't associated with the drug in any way.

There's a reason we lead the developed world in incarcerated citizens. In fact, if anything that's the gateway IMO.






I think Bill's point is that if pot is illegal, just don't smoke it. Until it becomes legal.


Pretty much. I mean in and of itself, its a trivial thing. Less worth than vacuuming your house. Playstation with an odor. Make playstation, or poprocks, or those two knocker balls on a string illegal and it's oh well, let's move on with our lives and do something that has substance. It's not racism, so I'm agog people would take a day off from work to march in a parade is all.
RE: RE: It has certainly been oversold by its champions...  
GIANTSr01 : 7/28/2014 9:23 am : link
In comment 11783503 Sgrcts said:
Quote:
In comment 11783469 Dunedin81 said:


Quote:


to me the big issue is going to be DUID. It's much easier for administrative purposes to certify a bunch of LEOs on a breath test than to do blood tests, which require the presence of the chain of custody and if they fail (for instance, the blood coagulates) they can't be immediately corrected the way a breath test can as there isn't any near-in-time feedback.

As you said Gary it's not that it outweighs the likely positives, but it is a consideration.

Also crop substitution, especially one that requires extra water, could have its own attendant problems, as it seems to have done in parts of California.



The problem with the DUID argument is- its already illegal to drive high. People aren't going to be more likely to drive high because weed is legal then they are currently.


People may not be more likely to drive stoned, but with an increase in the # of people stoned (or the frequency of people stoned), it's naive to think there won't be an increase in DUI.
The way I think is that it increases America's "zone of dysfunction"  
cosmicj : 7/28/2014 9:37 am : link
in that a minority of the population will use marijuana significantly more and their economic, intellectual and socil prospects will be affected negatively. Most of the population will only be affected in an insignificant or marginal way.

But I support legalization. The evils of the drug war have been apparent for decades.

There's also the knock-on effects - marijuana is a gateway not just to other drugs but to breaking the law. If marijuana now becomes another socially conscripted but perfectly legal drug, people who smoke it will consider themselves law-abiding citizens and hopefully be less willing to break other, more serious laws.
BTW, good ,mature discussion here.  
cosmicj : 7/28/2014 9:39 am : link
People are weighing the trade-offs and acknowledging that none of the options are perfect. Decriminilization is just the least bad option.
Ah, got it. Still don't agree, tho.  
Cam in MO : 7/28/2014 9:39 am : link
To me it's more about having the freedom to chose what you put in your body.

I absolutely understand the safety concerns- if they're deemed warranted, at the very least decriminalize it. Like seat belt laws- fine folks if you want to modify their behavior, don't toss them in prison.


I'm with Cam.  
drkenneth : 7/28/2014 9:44 am : link
It's not "inconsequential". Maybe for you, but tell that to the millions who use it to relax, alleviate pain, etc...Those who've been incarcerated.


Cam  
cosmicj : 7/28/2014 9:45 am : link
funny that you mention seat belt laws, because I was just comparing the marijuana legalization issue to that.

On the one hand, requiring people to use seat belts is a clear infringement of their rights to self-determination. On the other hand, not using a safety belt is not some sort of civil rights action but simple laziness or ignorance, with often awful consequences. I support safety belt laws because it's the least-bad set of two bad options. Same idea applies to marijuana legalization.
Would you support insurance companies not  
buford : 7/28/2014 9:50 am : link
covering your injuries or death if you don't wear a seat belt?
I agree that it's an impingement on that freedom  
Bill L : 7/28/2014 9:53 am : link
But I would argue that there are countless other things that we are not allowed to put in our bodies..and some for very good reason... I wouldn't start an advocacy group, have a parade, or give it much thought other than wistful remembrances.
RE: RE: I'm torn about this...  
Dan in the Springs : 7/28/2014 9:56 am : link
Quote:
There is literally ZERO barrier for minors to obtain marijuana. The only ones who think its hard for teenagers to get marijuana is out of touch adults.


While it may be true that I'm an out of touch adult as it pertains to many things, I do believe I know a few things about the access minors have to weed in my neighborhood. You do realize that access to mj varies by market, don't you? Additionally, while I agree that the barriers are fairly low (and in your neighborhood may have reached zero), I don't think the barriers are equivalent for 17 year olds and nine year olds. My point being that legalization will increase the likelihood of minors accessing pot overall requires only that some barriers exist at some level somewhere in the country. Do you really deny that might be true?

Buford  
cosmicj : 7/28/2014 9:56 am : link
no idea about that question but apparently in some states it can seriously limit your insurance coverage in case of accident. That is apparently true in NJ, btw.
The Consequences of Not Wearing a Seatbelt - ( New Window )
The pain part is such an intintessimal proportion  
Bill L : 7/28/2014 9:57 am : link
likely none of the actual parade walkers, and also likely being used as an excuse. But I'll grant that's a slightly different category or exception...comparable to banning lipitor or Cox-2 inhibitors. There. you might advocate. However, they could, also, if serious, separate the pain/nausea-alleviating portion from the psychoactive portion and provide it in pill form and that should quash protests.
RE: I'm with Cam.  
Bill L : 7/28/2014 9:59 am : link
In comment 11783626 drkenneth said:
Quote:
It's not "inconsequential". Maybe for you, but tell that to the millions who use it to relax, alleviate pain, etc...Those who've been incarcerated.



Sorry, should have linked this to my last answer.

Wrt the incarcerated. Of course it consequential to them because they have made it so. My point is not about the drug per se but about people who allow it to become so much more than it is...so that it becomes something that leads them to criminal behavior.
I wonder if the use of alcohol would decline.  
Reese's Pieces : 7/28/2014 10:45 am : link
That would be a net plus for society across the board, since alcohol does much more damage from fatal DWIs to cirrhosis of the liver to stomach and throat cancer.
Not commenting on the merits but one interesting side affect  
bhill410 : 7/28/2014 11:00 am : link
To the Colorado and Washington legalization is that many of the farmers in Mexico have switched to poppy for heroin sales. Now I dont think heroin usage will ever be as commonplace as pot simply because people aren't that dumb, but even a small uptick has a much more rampant societal consequence because of the pure devestating nature of the drug. That being said you have to think any "war on drugs" would be more effective and simpler if you remove marjuiana and simply focused on heroin, meth, and crack which most sane humans realize are on a completely different planet than pot.
RE: The hypocracy of the Times position is that  
vibe4giants : 7/28/2014 12:30 pm : link
In comment 11783519 Hammer said:
Quote:
their human resources department will continue to insist on pre-employment and post injury mandatory drug screenings which will result in refusal to hire and discipline if the subject tests positive for THC.


That's not hypocrisy. The Editorial is about where they think the law should go. The current policy reflects where it is.

And if even it does get legalized in the future, their corporate policy could still not change. The Editorial Board wouldn't make that decision. For a variety of reasons, those in charge of those decisions may still not feel like it's good policy for their company. (Just look at what happened to Maureen Dowd.)
One thing the pro-legalization circles should take to heart  
Overseer : 7/28/2014 12:54 pm : link
is to take it all very seriously.

Follow the law to the letter, work with local politicians and law enforcement, and most importantly do not advertise in a way that attracts children. They should ditch candy bars and the like and put clear, conspicuous warnings on edibles which, for anyone who has tried them, are not to be fucked around with.

They need to cultivate an image of running a business for adults (like your local neighborhood dildo shop) rather than just stoners being now legally able to get stoned with other stoners.
I think that is happening, no?  
drkenneth : 7/28/2014 12:57 pm : link
This is big business. Not just a couple of stoners bitching.
People driving with cell phones  
PEEJ : 7/28/2014 12:59 pm : link
are a bigger danger
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