whether the PM is a dictator or a nut this is a pretty low-risk way to go about doing it. From their standpoint, they win if the boat gets through and they win if it doesn't, because whatever happens to it is attributable to the organization rather than the state. They can feign indignation on behalf of their citizens without having to risk an open conflict which would strain their relationships with us and other Western states.
Israel isnt the nicest group of them all. Before the rockets, there are stuff happening that isnt being reported. I know thats the same thing we hear all the time but its a fucked up situation.
I even asked if Hamas is their "army". And he said, no but they have no one else to defend them. Which i find baffling as well. Dont be the agressors then. But thats when i didnt know about the invasion of more of the palestianan territory.
again... its a messed up situation on both sides.
DP, I would love to hear your answers (which I won't). Â
Aside from the rockets, are the terror tunnels an act of war?
How do you feel about using resources meant to build water, wastewater and road infrastructure for Gazans to build tunnels with built-in holding cells, kidnapping tools, and fortified protections for the rockets? How do you feel about using similar resources to build bomb shelters for elite members of Hamas?
How do you feel about placing rockets deliberately within civilian populations and forcing those populations to stay in situ?
Any acts of war there? Any crimes against humanity there? Do the Israelis have any rights to go in and destroy the terror tunnels? Do they have any right to send soldiers in to destroy the rockets and tunnels physically, which is a lot more dangerous for them, but less dangerous to civilians?
How do you feel about Hamas's stated position that they will not accept Israel as a Jewish state, among 50 Muslim states with 100 times the population? Should the Israelis negotiate with them anyway?
Killed over 1000 civilians in just the past couple of weeks, maimed and disfigured thousands more and caused hundreds of millions in damages to the OCCUPIED Palestinian territories. Wouldn't be surprising in the least if they attempted to block a Turkish ship full of medicine and food for them.
in Gaza are hard to ignore. But the blame for those casualties fall on Hamas, though I'm not ready to totally exonerate Israel. Unfortunately, a recurring theme over the years seems to be that the Muslim world gets lathered to a frenzy about the killing of Muslims without any attempt to carefully analyze what precipitated it.
It declared the US was at war with Islam and wanted to eradicate it, conveniently forgetting that the US sent soldiers to Bosnia to kill Christian Serbs in order to save Muslim lives. I don't have a lot of hope for things changing.
This is not a rant against a religion, its a rant against the politics and mindset of Middle Eastern populations who ascribe motives to the US that recent history doesn't support. The US isn't anti any religion, it is pragmatic in its policies and often wrong, sometimes spectacularly so, but it has nothing to do with religion. That makes it difficult to deal with a people who see every action and every aspect of life in the context of religion.
either they act and kill civilians because the only way to avoid killing civilians in a densely populated strip of territory with an enemy that does not practice defensive discrimination is to not act, or they don't act and Hamas puts together enough in the way of rockets or hardened infrastructure (tunnels in particular) that the next time a comparable or greater incident of provocation occurs they can do significant damage.
And they can always be sure that the international community will bring to bear enough pressure to prevent the sort of victory that would prevent a similar conflict in five or ten or fifteen years.
mujahir, show a little even-handedness for a change. Â
Aside from the rockets, are the terror tunnels an act of war?
How do you feel about using resources meant to build water, wastewater and road infrastructure for Gazans to build tunnels with built-in holding cells, kidnapping tools, and fortified protections for the rockets? How do you feel about using similar resources to build bomb shelters for elite members of Hamas?
How do you feel about placing rockets deliberately within civilian populations and forcing those populations to stay in situ?
Any acts of war there? Any crimes against humanity there? Do the Israelis have any rights to go in and destroy the terror tunnels? Do they have any right to send soldiers in to destroy the rockets and tunnels physically, which is a lot more dangerous for them, but less dangerous to civilians?
How do you feel about Hamas's stated position that they will not accept Israel as a Jewish state, among 50 Muslim states with 100 times the population? Should the Israelis negotiate with them anyway?
How do you feel about this?
Bringing that up to date, and the total is a few thousand, if that. What about all of the Christians?
[quote]The persecution of Christians throughout the Middle East, as well as the silence with which it has been met in the West, are the subject of journalist Ed West's Kindle Single "The Silence of Our Friends." The booklet is a brisk and chilling litany of horrors: Discriminatory laws, mass graves, unofficial pogroms, and exile. The persecuted are not just Coptic and Nestorian Christians who have relatively few co-communicants in the West, but Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants as well.
Throughout the Middle East the pattern is the same. Christians are murdered in mob violence or by militant groups. Their churches are bombed, their shops destroyed, and their homes looted. Laws are passed making them second-class citizens, and the majority of them eventually leave.
Any thoughts here, or are only the Jews the bad guys? Link - ( New Window )
Killed over 1000 civilians in just the past couple of weeks, maimed and disfigured thousands more and caused hundreds of millions in damages to the OCCUPIED Palestinian territories. Wouldn't be surprising in the least if they attempted to block a Turkish ship full of medicine and food for them.
First things first - there is no "occupation" of Gaza. The Israelis left nine years ago.
Secondly - over 50,000 civilians have been killed in Syria over the past three years, yet I don't see out gettting outraged on their behalf. Now, why could that be?
I heard a quote the other day that sums up much of the problem Â
Something along the lines that Israel uses rockets to protect her citizens from bombs while in contrast the other side uses it's citizens to protect their bombs from rockets.
I'll try to be fair although that's virtually impossible when I see Palestinian kids and elderly with limbs blown off after Israel attacks some of the most densely populated areas in the world by land sea and air. People keep mentioning rockets being shot into Israel and Israel responding. This latest conflict all occurred when those 3 settlers got killed and 1 day later Israel laid blame on hamas and started blowing up the Gaza strip. In response hamas started shooting their crude hand made rockets back at Israel. This DID not begin with hamas shooting rockets....just for the record. The problem is there's a contingent of proIsraelis that have no sense of a justified response. You throw a punch, I have a right to bash your brains in with a hammer and burn your families house down. Many people obviously have a problem with that way of thinking and acting.
As for the tunnels and weapons stores and the other things you mentioned, as long as the Palestinians remained occupied, there will always be a struggle and they won't give up until the occupation is over. But Israel has no plans of ever giving the Palestinians a state. There plan is to continue building settlements in Palestinian territories completely against all international law and expand more and more in Palestinian land.
I feel bad for muhajir. He sees innocent muslim people, women and children being maimed and killed. That is really difficult for anyone to toss aside, much less a fellow muslim who must feel that there is little sympathy or even empathy here for what is undeniably a horrific tragedy. The rest of us may try to shut out the horror and consider the larger stakes and issues, but it's got to be as impossible for him to see the Israeli side as it is for many here to see the Palestinian side.
Killed over 1000 civilians in just the past couple of weeks, maimed and disfigured thousands more and caused hundreds of millions in damages to the OCCUPIED Palestinian territories. Wouldn't be surprising in the least if they attempted to block a Turkish ship full of medicine and food for them.
First things first - there is no "occupation" of Gaza. The Israelis left nine years ago.
Secondly - over 50,000 civilians have been killed in Syria over the past three years, yet I don't see out gettting outraged on their behalf. Now, why could that be?
Of course there's horror and outrage over Syria but this discussion isn't about Syria. Ive been to protests against Egypt and Syria. This isn't about Arabs vs. Jews. This is about justice and human rights.
And what do you mean Gaza isn't occupied? West Bank and Gaza are occupied by Israel of course. We gonna play pretend now??
If they didn't place their weapons near schools, hospitals, mosques, etc there wouldn't be near the number of civilian casualties. They do this because they want the casualties. They view it as a big benefit when those pictures are displayed in print, television and the internet throughout the world.
Your outrage should be at them for choosing to place their citizens in such danger simply trying to gain a political advantage.
Because the Israelis left Gaza in 2005, which was covered extensively in the media worldwide. Hell, I watched that shit live on AFN in Iraq.
Quote:
The Israeli disengagement from Gaza (Hebrew: úÈÌëÀðÄéú äÇäÄúÀðÇúÀÌ÷åÌú, Tokhnit HaHitnatkut; in the Disengagement Plan Implementation Law), also known as "Gaza expulsion" and "Hitnatkut", was the withdrawal of the Israeli army from Gaza, and the dismantling of all Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip in 2005. Four small settlements in the northern West Bank were also evacuated.
how do you feel about the 160 Palestinian children that were killed building the terror tunnels because of their "nimble bodies" and Gazan officials, police, or anyone doing anythign to stop it?
2 things ... I guess you know something that I don't, There were no Israeli soldiers in Gaza prior to these hostilities as far as I know, so I'm not sure how that qualifies as occupied.
Second
Quote:
As for the tunnels and weapons stores and the other things you mentioned, as long as the Palestinians remained occupied, there will always be a struggle and they won't give up until the occupation is over. But Israel has no plans of ever giving the Palestinians a state
If the "occupation" ends, do you really believe Hamas will let Israel live in peace when their official position and goal is the total destruction of Israel? That's the core issue
wanted to bash in Palestinian brains, the death numbers would be catastrpophic, not somethign which doesn't hold a candle to what is happening in Iraq or Syria.
Perhaps if Hamas built a single bomb shelter to protect their children instead of using hundreds of thousands of tons of cement meant for infrastructure to send in children to die while building terror tunnels to smuggle weapons, the civilian death toll wouldn't be as high as it is.
I can't imagine another flotilla incident going unanswered a 2nd time. Especially if it goes similarly to the last one, where reports indicate some of these unarmed humanitarians were shot in the back, execution style.
Hamas sucks.
Saying Israeli's occupation was over long ago is absurd, considering they still maintain control of travel, trade, water and practically everything else in those territories.
he's a useful idiot. He either falls for the Hamas line, or just sees the damage on one side and doesn't think for himself as to why this is happening. It's the same with many Palestinian spokesman that I saw on TV this weekend. Just focusing on what is happening to them, without any consciousness of why it's happening and their role in it.
And I do see the Palestinian side and the suffering of the peopl Â
but that is squarely on the backs of Hamas and those who support them. They have to give up on this obsession over Israel. But I doubt that will ever happen.
Saying it is Israeli's occupation is absurd
since one side of Gaza borders with Egypt
and what did Egypt do ?
build a huge Steel Wall to keep Palestinians inside Gaza
I can't imagine another flotilla incident going unanswered a 2nd time. Especially if it goes similarly to the last one, where reports indicate some of these unarmed humanitarians were shot in the back, execution style.
Hamas sucks.
Saying Israeli's occupation was over long ago is absurd, considering they still maintain control of travel, trade, water and practically everything else in those territories.
No, saying that a case where there is no presence whatsoever of Israeli troops, politicians, administrators or just plain people is an occupation is absurd. A blockade, a state of war, could be many things, but I don't see how gaza could be considered occupied with literally no "occupiers"
Whenever middle eastern populations get restless and start resisting their dictators, it's time to get some palestinians killed so the arab government-run press can deflect the attention from the repression in arab countries to anti jewish feeling. "Christian" dictators pulled this stunt for a couple thousand years and it continues to work for arab, (mostly nominally) muslim dictators today.
re whether Turkish soldiers sailing to Gaza would be an act of war got a bit muddled. First, I was under the impression that Gaza is still technically part of Israel. If true, I'd assume that Israel may close its waters even those that abut Gaza. Second, people responded that there is a war going on, so this is just another act of war. But my point was whether it would be an act of war by TURKEY, not Gaza/Hamas.
2 things ... I guess you know something that I don't, There were no Israeli soldiers in Gaza prior to these hostilities as far as I know, so I'm not sure how that qualifies as occupied.
Second
Quote:
As for the tunnels and weapons stores and the other things you mentioned, as long as the Palestinians remained occupied, there will always be a struggle and they won't give up until the occupation is over. But Israel has no plans of ever giving the Palestinians a state
If the "occupation" ends, do you really believe Hamas will let Israel live in peace when their official position and goal is the total destruction of Israel? That's the core issue
Mike, Israel allows Gaza to self police their land, but Gaza and the West Bank are occupied as a whole. Not allowed to have their own army, no control over borders or air space, Israel Controls the amount of food, water and electricity they're allowed to use (which is a fraction of what Israelis are allowed) and can cut those necessities off at any moment. They control how many acres of water they're allowed to fish in, theres hundreds of Israeli check points (many unmanned black aids on vital highways that can't discern between an ambulance rushing someone to a hospital or a a hamas fighter), ability to arbitrarily arrest whoever they feel like at any time, settlements built right inside Gaza with heavily armed Israeli 'settlers' again...completely in violation of international law...list goes on and on. If you remember yrs ago when there were negotiations about allowing the Palestinians to have their own state, all of that needed to be resolved but wasn't and talks collapsed. But there's no doubt that Palestinians don't have a state yet in addition to the apartheid circumstance they're currently living under.
Do I think Hamas and Palestinians will stop the struggle vs Israel if they get their own country? 100% yes. None of the other sovereign neighboring Arab states are attacking Israel, not one bullet shot from Jordan or Egypt after signing peace treaties and getting land issues settled. This isn't about hating Jews because they're Jews like some pretend, it's about very real economic, social and human rights issues that must be addressed for the Palestinians.
One last point, let's say for arguments sake, muhajir is biased, and proIsrael bbi's are baised for Israel. Who has no allegiance to either side.. so we can look at their perspective of the conflict (s)? UN?..? Human rights watch groups? International law?? Maybe we can use them as an unbiased reference.
U S security. - ( New Window )
And after Hamas lovingly sent all those rockets their way, too! Damned ungrateful Israelis!
Link - ( New Window )
Agreed, which is why it is odd (or maybe not so odd) for a poster to repeatedly ignore one set of facts.
I even asked if Hamas is their "army". And he said, no but they have no one else to defend them. Which i find baffling as well. Dont be the agressors then. But thats when i didnt know about the invasion of more of the palestianan territory.
again... its a messed up situation on both sides.
How do you feel about using resources meant to build water, wastewater and road infrastructure for Gazans to build tunnels with built-in holding cells, kidnapping tools, and fortified protections for the rockets? How do you feel about using similar resources to build bomb shelters for elite members of Hamas?
How do you feel about placing rockets deliberately within civilian populations and forcing those populations to stay in situ?
Any acts of war there? Any crimes against humanity there? Do the Israelis have any rights to go in and destroy the terror tunnels? Do they have any right to send soldiers in to destroy the rockets and tunnels physically, which is a lot more dangerous for them, but less dangerous to civilians?
How do you feel about Hamas's stated position that they will not accept Israel as a Jewish state, among 50 Muslim states with 100 times the population? Should the Israelis negotiate with them anyway?
Just wondering.
It declared the US was at war with Islam and wanted to eradicate it, conveniently forgetting that the US sent soldiers to Bosnia to kill Christian Serbs in order to save Muslim lives. I don't have a lot of hope for things changing.
This is not a rant against a religion, its a rant against the politics and mindset of Middle Eastern populations who ascribe motives to the US that recent history doesn't support. The US isn't anti any religion, it is pragmatic in its policies and often wrong, sometimes spectacularly so, but it has nothing to do with religion. That makes it difficult to deal with a people who see every action and every aspect of life in the context of religion.
Hamas WANTS Israel to send rockets in and kill civilians. That is their best PR. And some people lap it up.
And they can always be sure that the international community will bring to bear enough pressure to prevent the sort of victory that would prevent a similar conflict in five or ten or fifteen years.
How do you feel about using resources meant to build water, wastewater and road infrastructure for Gazans to build tunnels with built-in holding cells, kidnapping tools, and fortified protections for the rockets? How do you feel about using similar resources to build bomb shelters for elite members of Hamas?
How do you feel about placing rockets deliberately within civilian populations and forcing those populations to stay in situ?
Any acts of war there? Any crimes against humanity there? Do the Israelis have any rights to go in and destroy the terror tunnels? Do they have any right to send soldiers in to destroy the rockets and tunnels physically, which is a lot more dangerous for them, but less dangerous to civilians?
How do you feel about Hamas's stated position that they will not accept Israel as a Jewish state, among 50 Muslim states with 100 times the population? Should the Israelis negotiate with them anyway?
How do you feel about this?
Bringing that up to date, and the total is a few thousand, if that. What about all of the Christians?
[quote]The persecution of Christians throughout the Middle East, as well as the silence with which it has been met in the West, are the subject of journalist Ed West's Kindle Single "The Silence of Our Friends." The booklet is a brisk and chilling litany of horrors: Discriminatory laws, mass graves, unofficial pogroms, and exile. The persecuted are not just Coptic and Nestorian Christians who have relatively few co-communicants in the West, but Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants as well.
Throughout the Middle East the pattern is the same. Christians are murdered in mob violence or by militant groups. Their churches are bombed, their shops destroyed, and their homes looted. Laws are passed making them second-class citizens, and the majority of them eventually leave.
Any thoughts here, or are only the Jews the bad guys?
Link - ( New Window )
First things first - there is no "occupation" of Gaza. The Israelis left nine years ago.
Secondly - over 50,000 civilians have been killed in Syria over the past three years, yet I don't see out gettting outraged on their behalf. Now, why could that be?
As for the tunnels and weapons stores and the other things you mentioned, as long as the Palestinians remained occupied, there will always be a struggle and they won't give up until the occupation is over. But Israel has no plans of ever giving the Palestinians a state. There plan is to continue building settlements in Palestinian territories completely against all international law and expand more and more in Palestinian land.
Odd how you skipped over that part.
Egypt also borders Gaza, won't open the border though. It seems Hamas keeps bombing them too.
Quote:
Killed over 1000 civilians in just the past couple of weeks, maimed and disfigured thousands more and caused hundreds of millions in damages to the OCCUPIED Palestinian territories. Wouldn't be surprising in the least if they attempted to block a Turkish ship full of medicine and food for them.
First things first - there is no "occupation" of Gaza. The Israelis left nine years ago.
Secondly - over 50,000 civilians have been killed in Syria over the past three years, yet I don't see out gettting outraged on their behalf. Now, why could that be?
Of course there's horror and outrage over Syria but this discussion isn't about Syria. Ive been to protests against Egypt and Syria. This isn't about Arabs vs. Jews. This is about justice and human rights.
And what do you mean Gaza isn't occupied? West Bank and Gaza are occupied by Israel of course. We gonna play pretend now??
If they didn't place their weapons near schools, hospitals, mosques, etc there wouldn't be near the number of civilian casualties. They do this because they want the casualties. They view it as a big benefit when those pictures are displayed in print, television and the internet throughout the world.
Your outrage should be at them for choosing to place their citizens in such danger simply trying to gain a political advantage.
And that was per a paper in December 2011. I can't imagine what that total is now given the vast expanse of the tunnels that are still being discovered today.
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/At-least-160-children-died-digging-tunnels-for-Hamas-369138#! - ( New Window )
Second
If the "occupation" ends, do you really believe Hamas will let Israel live in peace when their official position and goal is the total destruction of Israel? That's the core issue
Perhaps if Hamas built a single bomb shelter to protect their children instead of using hundreds of thousands of tons of cement meant for infrastructure to send in children to die while building terror tunnels to smuggle weapons, the civilian death toll wouldn't be as high as it is.
I can't imagine another flotilla incident going unanswered a 2nd time. Especially if it goes similarly to the last one, where reports indicate some of these unarmed humanitarians were shot in the back, execution style.
Hamas sucks.
Saying Israeli's occupation was over long ago is absurd, considering they still maintain control of travel, trade, water and practically everything else in those territories.
2013 Leaders in Y/A
Foles - 9.1
Rodgers - 8.7
P. Manning - 8.3
McCown/Rivers/Wilson - 8.2
Brees - 7.9
Kaepernick - 7.7
Palmer - 7.5
Cutler - 7.4
2012 Leaders in Y/A
Griffin - 8.1
P. Manning/Newton - 8
Wilson - 7.9
Rodgers - 7.8
Brees/Ryan - 7.7
Brady/Romo - 7.6
Schaub/Eli - 7.4
since one side of Gaza borders with Egypt
and what did Egypt do ?
build a huge Steel Wall to keep Palestinians inside Gaza
I can't imagine another flotilla incident going unanswered a 2nd time. Especially if it goes similarly to the last one, where reports indicate some of these unarmed humanitarians were shot in the back, execution style.
Hamas sucks.
Saying Israeli's occupation was over long ago is absurd, considering they still maintain control of travel, trade, water and practically everything else in those territories.
No, saying that a case where there is no presence whatsoever of Israeli troops, politicians, administrators or just plain people is an occupation is absurd. A blockade, a state of war, could be many things, but I don't see how gaza could be considered occupied with literally no "occupiers"
Second
Quote:
As for the tunnels and weapons stores and the other things you mentioned, as long as the Palestinians remained occupied, there will always be a struggle and they won't give up until the occupation is over. But Israel has no plans of ever giving the Palestinians a state
If the "occupation" ends, do you really believe Hamas will let Israel live in peace when their official position and goal is the total destruction of Israel? That's the core issue
Mike, Israel allows Gaza to self police their land, but Gaza and the West Bank are occupied as a whole. Not allowed to have their own army, no control over borders or air space, Israel Controls the amount of food, water and electricity they're allowed to use (which is a fraction of what Israelis are allowed) and can cut those necessities off at any moment. They control how many acres of water they're allowed to fish in, theres hundreds of Israeli check points (many unmanned black aids on vital highways that can't discern between an ambulance rushing someone to a hospital or a a hamas fighter), ability to arbitrarily arrest whoever they feel like at any time, settlements built right inside Gaza with heavily armed Israeli 'settlers' again...completely in violation of international law...list goes on and on. If you remember yrs ago when there were negotiations about allowing the Palestinians to have their own state, all of that needed to be resolved but wasn't and talks collapsed. But there's no doubt that Palestinians don't have a state yet in addition to the apartheid circumstance they're currently living under.
Do I think Hamas and Palestinians will stop the struggle vs Israel if they get their own country? 100% yes. None of the other sovereign neighboring Arab states are attacking Israel, not one bullet shot from Jordan or Egypt after signing peace treaties and getting land issues settled. This isn't about hating Jews because they're Jews like some pretend, it's about very real economic, social and human rights issues that must be addressed for the Palestinians.
One last point, let's say for arguments sake, muhajir is biased, and proIsrael bbi's are baised for Israel. Who has no allegiance to either side.. so we can look at their perspective of the conflict (s)? UN?..? Human rights watch groups? International law?? Maybe we can use them as an unbiased reference.
Buford: grow up pls
Ah, I see. Silly me.