Gaining by providing Isreal with most of the arms in this conflict? If the state departments goal is to achieve a cease fire that seems like a strange move.
Germany, as of late, has been the most effective in curtailing Â
Gaining by providing Isreal with most of the arms in this conflict? If the state departments goal is to achieve a cease fire that seems like a strange move.
Sustainability of an ally/democratic nation in the hostile Middle East
Of international relations experts who feel that the return on that investment of our relationship with Isreal is somewhat limited. That being said I think that is an ancillary debate and one I am certainly not qualified to have - however i have no idea how you can attempt to broker a cease fire when you are actively shipping the supplies.
but there are definitely subgroups within each party that would make the polling appear the way it does:
1. Republicans have the messianic wing of the party, whose support in any matter would make me a bit uncomfortable as they likely believe in creationism and deny climate change, but whatever.
2. Democrats have the peacenik wing of the party, who see only one side with tanks and jets. There is also definitely a segment of academia that supports the Palestinians as well.
RE: Seth, I haven't made one post supporting either side... Â
...or point of view in this conflict, so asking me to refute your points seems pointless. My posts have been solely related to the propaganda side of the conflict, as evidenced by the little story in the OP in my opinion. And the notion that people agree 100% with the version being promoted by one side as some sort of coincidence, and not a result of said propaganda are the ones being naïve. I know enough to know I don't know enough about this conflict to comment, but I also know enough about the impact of PR on people's opinions and views to see it manifested liberally in this conversation.
It doesn't have to do with propaganda for me, it has to do with a wealth of evidence and history to show clear reasoning and deduction. Israeli propaganda has nothing to do with visual and audible quotes and statements from those in power and those who influence the masses. Propaganda is irrelevant when the leadership of a group makes a proud openly public statement that the goal is genocide and the country of Israel is but a figment of everyone's imagination. That it is a false unrecognized state because of the people who exist there and their religion.
Aspano! -
Seth - Do you mean something like the Arab Spring? Moreover, do you really believe that even if there were groups trying to, or actually demonstrating against those governments, that it would get any mainstream media attention prior to it reaching a critical mass?
Arab Spring is a fine example of an uprising that leads to a vacuum of leadership and utter chaos. The Arab Spring was not a fight for a legitimate free society, but instead was an ouster of a hated ruler who had tormented people for decades. One dictator leaves and a group of tyrants replace him. So to use your example, in the face of admirable expression of unhappiness and despair through uprising, the result is not a leadership group of stable, legitimate people but instead opens the floodgates to allow another bad representation group to take over.
WIthout the world's heavy assistance, how many of these Islamic nations would exist in a state of calm and peace and unity? Even within Islam there are too many factions and wings who despise one another for there to be a focused and progressive civilization. It's tragic. But also self inflicted.
Just to add an interesting tidbit to the party line debate Â
But an astonishingly large percentage of US private money given to Isreal (want to say 80%) actually comes from southern Bible Belt groups. Vice recently had a report on that which was pretty fascinating. There is a belief that Isreal needs to be united for certain passages of revelation to be fulfilled and thus trigger the second coming. The point of view taken (it's vice so take it with a grain of salt) was that this money that was earkmarked for factions against a 2 state was actually one of the largest destabilizing factors in the area right now.
RE: Just to add an interesting tidbit to the party line debate Â
But an astonishingly large percentage of US private money given to Isreal (want to say 80%) actually comes from southern Bible Belt groups. Vice recently had a report on that which was pretty fascinating. There is a belief that Isreal needs to be united for certain passages of revelation to be fulfilled and thus trigger the second coming. The point of view taken (it's vice so take it with a grain of salt) was that this money that was earkmarked for factions against a 2 state was actually one of the largest destabilizing factors in the area right now.
Why take with a grain of salt? They do good work. They is fo real.
Now link the similar article that distinguishes between Muslims and Islamic fundamentalists from one of the numerous times that some atrocity has occurred and Muslims everywhere were given a bad reputation due to it.
Excellent point -- you should write one.
RE: Just to add an interesting tidbit to the party line debate Â
But an astonishingly large percentage of US private money given to Isreal (want to say 80%) actually comes from southern Bible Belt groups. Vice recently had a report on that which was pretty fascinating. There is a belief that Isreal needs to be united for certain passages of revelation to be fulfilled and thus trigger the second coming. The point of view taken (it's vice so take it with a grain of salt) was that this money that was earkmarked for factions against a 2 state was actually one of the largest destabilizing factors in the area right now.
Yes. They are crazy people.
That is a well-known and unfortunate faction of meddlers. Jerry Falwell was the best (worst) example who, while simultaneously pushing anti-semitism in US circles, demagogued endlessly about the supposed "holy land" at the expense of peace efforts. He even sucked up to Menachem Begin not, of course, out of concern for Israel itself but for preserving the spot where Jesus was to beam down into.
I'm not super familiar with the topic, but I would think that the desired end result of people ousting one dictator was not to bring in another oppressive regime to replace it. So perhaps it is self-inflicted, but is that intentional? And what is the reason that these types of governments keep coming into power?
Getting back to my original point, I still believe that there is a negative stigma associated with the word Muslim in this country. And my hope is that people take the time to recognize it and learn a little bit, rather than throw out "OH THEY HATE AMERICA" immediately.
I love vice - but like any individual they have an Â
Opinion on what they are showing and that generally comes through. That being said they are at least attempting to bring certain issues to discussion which IMO makes them better than 99% of the rest of the media.
Because this addresses the "real" issues at play in the world today regarding Israel and Palestine...Israel does a phenomenal job winning the propaganda war, but I'm pretty sure even they would scoff at this amateur attempt at distraction.
I've read your comments and do't really understand what you are saying.
Does your subject line refer to the original article and are you suggesting that the basic premise of distinguishing disagreement from the policy of a particular Israeli Government and Antisemitism is a 'useless' point?
Could you please expand on that?
Secondly you seem to introduce another argument that Israel is winning the propaganda war. What is your basis? If anything I think the opposite is true. TV goes for the money shot and their repeated closeups of maimed and/or dead children (horrible indeed) is an oversimplification of a tragic situation. In fact one such shot was the result of contradictory claims including an Israeli one saying the deaths was in fact the result of a wayward Hamas missile. I'm not saying either side should be believed without solid proof, but both BBC America and CNN reported the 'fact' that the victims were targets of an Israeli missile without the appropriate quantification.
Granted this is just one example, but I would still like proof that Israel is winning the propaganda war. And perhaps more telling, we should be less concerned about propaganda and more on trying to unpack the complicated and tragic events in Gaza and Southern Israel as well as its relationship to the carnage occurring in the rest of the region (especially Syria and Iraq.)
I'm not super familiar with the topic, but I would think that the desired end result of people ousting one dictator was not to bring in another oppressive regime to replace it. So perhaps it is self-inflicted, but is that intentional? And what is the reason that these types of governments keep coming into power?
Getting back to my original point, I still believe that there is a negative stigma associated with the word Muslim in this country. And my hope is that people take the time to recognize it and learn a little bit, rather than throw out "OH THEY HATE AMERICA" immediately.
It is really unfortunate (although I am no fan of any organized religion really). It's just tough to deny that when the WTC gets blown up twice, it's radical Muslims. When the USS Cole gets bombed, its radical Muslims. Plane hijackings...mall massacres...beheadings...women being tortured and stoned and hung...vitriolic hate speech towards Jews and Westerners, as well as homosexuals and "infidels"...Holocaust denying..flag burning....infighting between groups such as the Sunni and Shiites...Teaching children that Jews drink the blood of Muslims...the Taliban...suicide bombings all over the world...
Its a damn shame that this shit is the truth but this shit is the truth. The elements of that religion that do these things make it tough for a regular Joe to see it all as rainbows and peace and love. There's a lot of clear evidence in front of your face everyday that there is something repetitive and common that colors your opinion.
One thing that I believe however is that if there were a proportional amount of the exact same behavior from factions of Jews, the reactions would be intense and angry and not as accepting that "they aren't all like that". Jews fight an uphill climb when they defend their country or work in Hollywood let alone slicing a reporter's head off or burying a woman up to her neck in the middle of a field while people throw boulders at her head.
Gallup and Pew polls are valid and reliable data points Â
I also think that people conflate Europeans disliking immigrants with their dislike of a certain religious group.
Several countries dislike immigrants in Europe. But a large fraction of these immigrants are Muslim, simply because of the law of numbers. It's not that they dislike the religion; it's that they dislike that the people are foreign-born.
RE: Gallup and Pew polls are valid and reliable data points Â
I also think that people conflate Europeans disliking immigrants with their dislike of a certain religious group.
Several countries dislike immigrants in Europe. But a large fraction of these immigrants are Muslim, simply because of the law of numbers. It's not that they dislike the religion; it's that they dislike that the people are foreign-born.
that Israel is winning the propaganda war is completely laughable.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, the conflict in Gaza wouldn't be the most talked about conflict around the world. It would be Syria where the death rate is 100 times that of what's happening in Gaza.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, the hashtag #GazaUnderAttack wouldn't be as popular as it is and wouldn't be overrun with images of dead Syrians, Iraqis and Israelis (at the hands of Hamas) being paraded around as dead Gazans.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be more focus on the thousands of rockets launched at Israel and that the reason Israel has so few civilian casualties is that in addition to the Iron Dome, Israelis heed their sirens and they all evacuate to bomb shelters to stay safe. If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be a full scale derision of Hamas for why they ahven't built a single bomb shelter for its people but rather used up to hundreds of thousands of tons of concrete to build terror tunnels instead.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be relentless questions as to why Palestine has nothing to show for the billions and billions it has received in aid since Israel withdrew-- there would be hard investigatiosn into all of the money put to tunnels, and not to shelters, hospitals, or schools, as well as why the people of Gaza are so brutally poor yet their Palestinian leaders tend to be billionaires (from Meshal to Arafat) and Meshal hobnobs in Qatar.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be a significant focus on Egypt who by closing the Rafah crossing have blockaded Gaza and would be co-"occupiers."
If Israel were winning the propaganda war the entire world would be condemning Palestine for the deaths of 160 Palestininan children just in building the terror tunnels (and that was as of 2011-12).
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, Israel (and Jews) would not be compared to Nazis (which is lunacy) and this would not be called an ethnic cleansing or a genocide (especially when these things are actually happening around the world-- see Christians in Iraq). It's gotten to the point where Israeli Arab Christians are now denouncing themselves as Arabs, declaring themselves as Israeli, and are protesting against Arab Muslims and against Hamas
(http://tlv1.fm/news/so-much-to-say/2014/07/28/israeli-arab-christians-take-streets-haifa-unusual-protest-2/#_=1406824292679&id=twitter-widget-0&lang=en&screen_name=TLV1Radio&show_count=false&show_screen_name=true&size=m)
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be a focus on what Hamas did to those associated with Fatah as soon as they gained power in Gaza.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be a huge focus on how Israeli Arabs have it better and freer in Israel than perhaps in any other in the Middle East.
Finally, if Israel were winning the propaganda war, everyone would keep bringing up the decades of suicide bombing, that when radical Islamists are in power, they create brutal, murderous conditions across the entire Middle East and North Africa, from beheadings, to stoning child rape victims unless they become child brides, to female genital mutilation, to beheadings for speaking out against Islam.
If Israel were truly winning the propaganda war, then worldwide observers would take notice of the disparity of Muslims to Jews (over 100:1), look at every country where radical Islam rules, and see how their people are treated and seriously question what makes Hamas different in that they just want peace and freedom for their people.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, the world would look at radical Islam and remember their international terrorist attacks on the US, England, France, Spain, Sweden, India, and others, as well as look at what they are doing to Christians in Iraq and know that they aren't speaking hot air when they call for death to all Jews and an extermination of the state of Israel.
Israel is not winning the propaganda war. Not even close.
The current head of Hamas is a wealthy man living in Qatar. Oh yeah these guys care about their people. Each of the tunnels IDF has found are sophisticated engineering jobs that people estimate cost about $3 million each. So far the IDF has found 30 of them.
Do the math. Yet their own people suffer. Let's see...$10 for me...10 cents for you. That's real leadership.
RE: It's true that Palestine lives under a brutal occupation Â
But it's by Iran (and to a lesser extent Saudi Arabia) through its proxy Hamas, not Israel. Frankly, if the Palestinians were truly independent and negotiated in good faith, they'd get a far better deal from Israel than they would from anyone else in the ME.
Which is why the best thing would be for Israel to eliminate Hamas and liberate the Palestinian people from them. Whether the Palestinians would then accept peace and co-existance is another thing.
And why our government is supporting Qatar and Turkey while they spew a bunch of nonsense on this subject is beyond me. Even Saudia Arabia and Egypt want Israel to do away with Hamas. This is more an Arab/Muslim Civil War by proxy than an I/P conflict.
Do you think it is completely out of bounds to say Muslim Americans face more scrutiny than American Jews?
I agree there is far more of a debate in Europe, but in the States, do you think the Jews are persecuted more than Muslims?
Where do you think Muslims are persecuted in the US? I regularly see stories about Nazi graffiti on Jewish cemeteries and other buildings. There is still strong Anti-Jewish feelings in Europe and the US.
RE: RE: It's true that Palestine lives under a brutal occupation Â
But it's by Iran (and to a lesser extent Saudi Arabia) through its proxy Hamas, not Israel. Frankly, if the Palestinians were truly independent and negotiated in good faith, they'd get a far better deal from Israel than they would from anyone else in the ME.
What do you think this "better deal" would look like? The status quo serves Israel just fine. They don't want to give up the WB or any of Jerusalem to a would-be Palestine, but they also don't want to incorporate the territories into Israel because that would mean, if they want to remain a democracy, giving voting rights to millions of Muslims (which would of course make Knesset much browner...can't have that).
So instead they happily perpetuate this limbo that the territories remain in while feigning interest in a "peaceful resolution" because, and only because, America (even GOP'ers like Bush) continually pushes for it.
So you are wrong that there is some sweet deal in waiting if only Hamas would stop sandbagging its fellow Muslims to the Northeast. Israel doesn't have to do shit (because of its superior might) and doesn't want to. If you say "right on!", fair enough (and I'd agree when it comes to squishing Hamas). But call it what it is.
Are you saying that the status quo is the best that the Palestinians can do?
Jews fight an uphill climb when they defend their country or work in Hollywood
If only those compromised and downtrodden American Jews could just get a chance in Hollywood!
Yes it's all handed to them without any of their own doing. When a Jewish person gets anything its because they "stick together" and "take people's money and never give it back". Borat had it right.
dude you are visibly emotional and consequently mildly paranoid when it comes to this issue. Which gets in the way of what are indeed some compelling points throughout your posts.
have been given the Palestinians over the years. Yet all they have to show for it are new classes of wealthy PLO and Hamas leaders. The Palestinians deserve leaders with integrity and respect for their fellow man. Instead of blaming the Jews, put all that foreign aid money into REAL infrastructure improvement. Raise their standard of living, Israel has nothing to do with that.
The Palestinians are victims of the biggest scam in world history.
Perpetrated by their own people.
dude you are visibly emotional and consequently mildly paranoid when it comes to this issue. Which gets in the way of what are indeed some compelling points throughout your posts.
I am? I made a Hollywood joke. You replied in a serious way, suggesting that you missed my sarcasm. My only emotion on this issue is how so many people can defend the indefensible.
have been given the Palestinians over the years. Yet all they have to show for it are new classes of wealthy PLO and Hamas leaders. The Palestinians deserve leaders with integrity and respect for their fellow man. Instead of blaming the Jews, put all that foreign aid money into REAL infrastructure improvement. Raise their standard of living, Israel has nothing to do with that.
The Palestinians are victims of the biggest scam in world history.
Perpetrated by their own people.
a sarcastic joke summarily followed up by a reference to decapitation and murder by stoning. Not sure you'd make it in Hollywood bro (on second thought, give Tarantino a call...)
RB:
Quote:
Are you saying that the status quo is the best that the Palestinians can do?
I'm saying the status quo perfectly suits Israel's interests. They get to remain a democratic and Jewish state without having to officially cede any land (including any of Jerusalem) to a would-be Palestine. And the mechanical rhetoric that purports to desire a peaceful 2nd state keeps the American money flowing. Win/win/win.
Likud (fully pulling the strings these days) does not want or need any sort of political resolution. That's a fact. So I don't know what you expect even the more moderate elements in the WB to do. Forcefully condemn Hamas and all violence, fine. Agreed. Hamas is shit. Then what? Just say "fuck it" and move to Jordan? All ~2M of them.
Perhaps a victim of the Israeli propaganda machine Â
a sarcastic joke summarily followed up by a reference to decapitation and murder by stoning. Not sure you'd make it in Hollywood bro (on second thought, give Tarantino a call...)
RB:
Quote:
Are you saying that the status quo is the best that the Palestinians can do?
I'm saying the status quo perfectly suits Israel's interests. They get to remain a democratic and Jewish state without having to officially cede any land (including any of Jerusalem) to a would-be Palestine. And the mechanical rhetoric that purports to desire a peaceful 2nd state keeps the American money flowing. Win/win/win.
Likud (fully pulling the strings these days) does not want or need any sort of political resolution. That's a fact. So I don't know what you expect even the more moderate elements in the WB to do. Forcefully condemn Hamas and all violence, fine. Agreed. Hamas is shit. Then what? Just say "fuck it" and move to Jordan? All ~2M of them.
They can't agree to a peace deal and have normalized relations (economic, political, military) with Israel - and the U.S. for that matter? What's the awful thing that would happen to them in that scenario?
but he has links etc.. and disdusses the topics spoken about here 7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict - ( New Window )
As someone who goes back-and-forth on the conflict (if this board and another board I frequent with the polar opposite consensus among posters are any indication, I'm smack in the middle), I found this to be a very good read.
I don't think #7 will sit well with some posters here, though.
If they were able to achieve normalized relations, RB Â
based in relative peace, then why at that point do they not deserve a state of their own? Especially if the Palestinians give up on RoR (they should). I really just do not get that position. The US, EU, UN (I know, I know...) and Israel endorse this. Certain Israeli factions begrudgingly to appease America (although less so Olmert who was oftentimes constructive) but there is pretty widespread agreement across the board.
I don't get the obsession with keeping the territories in permanent limbo. At least advocate that Israel just annex them. That's far more respectable than the former which really amounts to a cowardly and banal "might makes right" position.
It's simple math. There are only a limited number of ways a bi-national Jewish state with a non-Jewish majority population can retain its Jewish identity. And none of them are pretty
RE: If they were able to achieve normalized relations, RB Â
based in relative peace, then why at that point do they not deserve a state of their own? Especially if the Palestinians give up on RoR (they should). I really just do not get that position. The US, EU, UN (I know, I know...) and Israel endorse this. Certain Israeli factions begrudgingly to appease America (although less so Olmert who was oftentimes constructive) but there is pretty widespread agreement across the board.
I don't get the obsession with keeping the territories in permanent limbo. At least advocate that Israel just annex them. That's far more respectable than the former which really amounts to a cowardly and banal "might makes right" position.
Maybe I was unclear. I think they should have their own state under those conditions. I agree that indefinite limbo is bad but if the Palestinians can't get their act together, I don't see a lot of alternatives.
the Palestinians have been largely a mess and indefensible. Although Abbas is easily less bad than Arafat, he too has proven ineffectual and blew probably the best chance at a resolution with the generally more conciliatory Olmert.
That said, the best way to marginalize Hamas is to formally legitimize the WB gov't by giving them a nation to govern. It's good for Israel, too, because it allows them to maintain their cherished Jewish identity. But it means that they give up some of Jerusalem and the Pals give up on RoR (it's 65 years hence, for God's sake...get over it).
RE: The ''citizens of the world'' support Hamas? Â
can you elaborate what you mean by that? Do you mean small pockets of religion whackjobs or is "citizens of the world" (COTW) an official outfit I'm not aware of. Like the Freemasons?
Comin off a little paranoid...
He might possibly be talklng about Great Britain, who opposed the U.S attempts to get Hamas classified as a terrorist organization for decades, even as the British govt allowed Hamas to run it's global HQ out of London.Or any of the other European nations where antisemitism is in vogue.Like France.
But it's by Iran (and to a lesser extent Saudi Arabia) through its proxy Hamas, not Israel. Frankly, if the Palestinians were truly independent and negotiated in good faith, they'd get a far better deal from Israel than they would from anyone else in the ME.
"Palestine" lives under a brutal occupation? Uhmm, Israel withdrew from Gaza NINE YEARS AGO.
The first thing they did when theyn left was donate 3000 greenhouses in pristine condition worth tens of millions to the palestinian people in Gaza, who promptly trashed them and tore them up and tunnelled under them to make an underground bunker system where they could make missiles to launch at Israel with the hundreds of Millions of dollars in aid money the US , Israel and other nations ( very few from their concerned Arab brethren, BTW)gave them to help build a nation and an infrastructure.
Instead of Building a Nation, as was the intent, they spent any investment money on bunkers and bombs, underground missile factories, and invested in a culture of death, as opposed to investing in their futures and the lives of their own children.
When was there ever a nation called Palestine, BTW? They had an opportunity to form a Nation, but Hamas preferred to spend it's time quarrelling with Fatah ( who actually have a much more peaceful co-existence with Israel)over Article 9 of their charter that calls for the destruction of the Jewish state and the elimination of all it's people and trying to seize power from the PLO, instead of actually trying to achieve anything AFTER ISRAEL WITHDREW FROM GAZA NINE YEARS AGO.
As far as an "occupied nation", one of the first things Israel did after the 67 war was to offer to return all occupied lands, to which the Arabs responded with the Khartooum resolution and the 3 "NO's" , no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it.
This is a state of affairs Hamas perpetuates and desires, as it hides it's weapons and arms factories amongst women and children.
Every other govt in the world protects its people, it's children, as opposed to using their own people as human shields.
When you have something to say about Hamas and it's rejectionist ideaology, it's propensity to hold it's own people hostage, then you can talk about the "Brutal occupation" of lands Israel withdrew from almost a decade ago....
that Palestine is independent and has authority to negotiate on its own behalf. That's just not true. If they want a deal with Israel, they have to kick out the Iranians and various other shit stirrers first.
That is not true, the fact is article 9 of the PLO charter calls for the destruction of Israel, and is is the Arabs league who decided it will not recognize or negotiate with Israel.
The simple fact is Hamas can renounce it's charter dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel and enter into negotiations tomorrow if they wanted to.
Sustainability of an ally/democratic nation in the hostile Middle East
1. Republicans have the messianic wing of the party, whose support in any matter would make me a bit uncomfortable as they likely believe in creationism and deny climate change, but whatever.
2. Democrats have the peacenik wing of the party, who see only one side with tanks and jets. There is also definitely a segment of academia that supports the Palestinians as well.
It doesn't have to do with propaganda for me, it has to do with a wealth of evidence and history to show clear reasoning and deduction. Israeli propaganda has nothing to do with visual and audible quotes and statements from those in power and those who influence the masses. Propaganda is irrelevant when the leadership of a group makes a proud openly public statement that the goal is genocide and the country of Israel is but a figment of everyone's imagination. That it is a false unrecognized state because of the people who exist there and their religion.
Aspano! -
Seth - Do you mean something like the Arab Spring? Moreover, do you really believe that even if there were groups trying to, or actually demonstrating against those governments, that it would get any mainstream media attention prior to it reaching a critical mass?
Arab Spring is a fine example of an uprising that leads to a vacuum of leadership and utter chaos. The Arab Spring was not a fight for a legitimate free society, but instead was an ouster of a hated ruler who had tormented people for decades. One dictator leaves and a group of tyrants replace him. So to use your example, in the face of admirable expression of unhappiness and despair through uprising, the result is not a leadership group of stable, legitimate people but instead opens the floodgates to allow another bad representation group to take over.
WIthout the world's heavy assistance, how many of these Islamic nations would exist in a state of calm and peace and unity? Even within Islam there are too many factions and wings who despise one another for there to be a focused and progressive civilization. It's tragic. But also self inflicted.
Why take with a grain of salt? They do good work. They is fo real.
Excellent point -- you should write one.
Yes. They are crazy people.
That is a well-known and unfortunate faction of meddlers. Jerry Falwell was the best (worst) example who, while simultaneously pushing anti-semitism in US circles, demagogued endlessly about the supposed "holy land" at the expense of peace efforts. He even sucked up to Menachem Begin not, of course, out of concern for Israel itself but for preserving the spot where Jesus was to beam down into.
Crazy people.
Getting back to my original point, I still believe that there is a negative stigma associated with the word Muslim in this country. And my hope is that people take the time to recognize it and learn a little bit, rather than throw out "OH THEY HATE AMERICA" immediately.
I've read your comments and do't really understand what you are saying.
Does your subject line refer to the original article and are you suggesting that the basic premise of distinguishing disagreement from the policy of a particular Israeli Government and Antisemitism is a 'useless' point?
Could you please expand on that?
Secondly you seem to introduce another argument that Israel is winning the propaganda war. What is your basis? If anything I think the opposite is true. TV goes for the money shot and their repeated closeups of maimed and/or dead children (horrible indeed) is an oversimplification of a tragic situation. In fact one such shot was the result of contradictory claims including an Israeli one saying the deaths was in fact the result of a wayward Hamas missile. I'm not saying either side should be believed without solid proof, but both BBC America and CNN reported the 'fact' that the victims were targets of an Israeli missile without the appropriate quantification.
Granted this is just one example, but I would still like proof that Israel is winning the propaganda war. And perhaps more telling, we should be less concerned about propaganda and more on trying to unpack the complicated and tragic events in Gaza and Southern Israel as well as its relationship to the carnage occurring in the rest of the region (especially Syria and Iraq.)
Getting back to my original point, I still believe that there is a negative stigma associated with the word Muslim in this country. And my hope is that people take the time to recognize it and learn a little bit, rather than throw out "OH THEY HATE AMERICA" immediately.
It is really unfortunate (although I am no fan of any organized religion really). It's just tough to deny that when the WTC gets blown up twice, it's radical Muslims. When the USS Cole gets bombed, its radical Muslims. Plane hijackings...mall massacres...beheadings...women being tortured and stoned and hung...vitriolic hate speech towards Jews and Westerners, as well as homosexuals and "infidels"...Holocaust denying..flag burning....infighting between groups such as the Sunni and Shiites...Teaching children that Jews drink the blood of Muslims...the Taliban...suicide bombings all over the world...
Its a damn shame that this shit is the truth but this shit is the truth. The elements of that religion that do these things make it tough for a regular Joe to see it all as rainbows and peace and love. There's a lot of clear evidence in front of your face everyday that there is something repetitive and common that colors your opinion.
One thing that I believe however is that if there were a proportional amount of the exact same behavior from factions of Jews, the reactions would be intense and angry and not as accepting that "they aren't all like that". Jews fight an uphill climb when they defend their country or work in Hollywood let alone slicing a reporter's head off or burying a woman up to her neck in the middle of a field while people throw boulders at her head.
I also think that people conflate Europeans disliking immigrants with their dislike of a certain religious group.
Several countries dislike immigrants in Europe. But a large fraction of these immigrants are Muslim, simply because of the law of numbers. It's not that they dislike the religion; it's that they dislike that the people are foreign-born.
I also think that people conflate Europeans disliking immigrants with their dislike of a certain religious group.
Several countries dislike immigrants in Europe. But a large fraction of these immigrants are Muslim, simply because of the law of numbers. It's not that they dislike the religion; it's that they dislike that the people are foreign-born.
100% agree with that.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, the conflict in Gaza wouldn't be the most talked about conflict around the world. It would be Syria where the death rate is 100 times that of what's happening in Gaza.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, the hashtag #GazaUnderAttack wouldn't be as popular as it is and wouldn't be overrun with images of dead Syrians, Iraqis and Israelis (at the hands of Hamas) being paraded around as dead Gazans.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be more focus on the thousands of rockets launched at Israel and that the reason Israel has so few civilian casualties is that in addition to the Iron Dome, Israelis heed their sirens and they all evacuate to bomb shelters to stay safe. If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be a full scale derision of Hamas for why they ahven't built a single bomb shelter for its people but rather used up to hundreds of thousands of tons of concrete to build terror tunnels instead.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be relentless questions as to why Palestine has nothing to show for the billions and billions it has received in aid since Israel withdrew-- there would be hard investigatiosn into all of the money put to tunnels, and not to shelters, hospitals, or schools, as well as why the people of Gaza are so brutally poor yet their Palestinian leaders tend to be billionaires (from Meshal to Arafat) and Meshal hobnobs in Qatar.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be a significant focus on Egypt who by closing the Rafah crossing have blockaded Gaza and would be co-"occupiers."
If Israel were winning the propaganda war the entire world would be condemning Palestine for the deaths of 160 Palestininan children just in building the terror tunnels (and that was as of 2011-12).
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, Israel (and Jews) would not be compared to Nazis (which is lunacy) and this would not be called an ethnic cleansing or a genocide (especially when these things are actually happening around the world-- see Christians in Iraq). It's gotten to the point where Israeli Arab Christians are now denouncing themselves as Arabs, declaring themselves as Israeli, and are protesting against Arab Muslims and against Hamas
(http://tlv1.fm/news/so-much-to-say/2014/07/28/israeli-arab-christians-take-streets-haifa-unusual-protest-2/#_=1406824292679&id=twitter-widget-0&lang=en&screen_name=TLV1Radio&show_count=false&show_screen_name=true&size=m)
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be a focus on what Hamas did to those associated with Fatah as soon as they gained power in Gaza.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be a huge focus on how Israeli Arabs have it better and freer in Israel than perhaps in any other in the Middle East.
Finally, if Israel were winning the propaganda war, everyone would keep bringing up the decades of suicide bombing, that when radical Islamists are in power, they create brutal, murderous conditions across the entire Middle East and North Africa, from beheadings, to stoning child rape victims unless they become child brides, to female genital mutilation, to beheadings for speaking out against Islam.
If Israel were truly winning the propaganda war, then worldwide observers would take notice of the disparity of Muslims to Jews (over 100:1), look at every country where radical Islam rules, and see how their people are treated and seriously question what makes Hamas different in that they just want peace and freedom for their people.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, the world would look at radical Islam and remember their international terrorist attacks on the US, England, France, Spain, Sweden, India, and others, as well as look at what they are doing to Christians in Iraq and know that they aren't speaking hot air when they call for death to all Jews and an extermination of the state of Israel.
Israel is not winning the propaganda war. Not even close.
If only those compromised and downtrodden American Jews could just get a chance in Hollywood!
Do the math. Yet their own people suffer. Let's see...$10 for me...10 cents for you. That's real leadership.
Which is why the best thing would be for Israel to eliminate Hamas and liberate the Palestinian people from them. Whether the Palestinians would then accept peace and co-existance is another thing.
And why our government is supporting Qatar and Turkey while they spew a bunch of nonsense on this subject is beyond me. Even Saudia Arabia and Egypt want Israel to do away with Hamas. This is more an Arab/Muslim Civil War by proxy than an I/P conflict.
I agree there is far more of a debate in Europe, but in the States, do you think the Jews are persecuted more than Muslims?
Where do you think Muslims are persecuted in the US? I regularly see stories about Nazi graffiti on Jewish cemeteries and other buildings. There is still strong Anti-Jewish feelings in Europe and the US.
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But it's by Iran (and to a lesser extent Saudi Arabia) through its proxy Hamas, not Israel. Frankly, if the Palestinians were truly independent and negotiated in good faith, they'd get a far better deal from Israel than they would from anyone else in the ME.
What do you think this "better deal" would look like? The status quo serves Israel just fine. They don't want to give up the WB or any of Jerusalem to a would-be Palestine, but they also don't want to incorporate the territories into Israel because that would mean, if they want to remain a democracy, giving voting rights to millions of Muslims (which would of course make Knesset much browner...can't have that).
So instead they happily perpetuate this limbo that the territories remain in while feigning interest in a "peaceful resolution" because, and only because, America (even GOP'ers like Bush) continually pushes for it.
So you are wrong that there is some sweet deal in waiting if only Hamas would stop sandbagging its fellow Muslims to the Northeast. Israel doesn't have to do shit (because of its superior might) and doesn't want to. If you say "right on!", fair enough (and I'd agree when it comes to squishing Hamas). But call it what it is.
Are you saying that the status quo is the best that the Palestinians can do?
Touchy, touchy. Love your work, Mr Brooks.
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Jews fight an uphill climb when they defend their country or work in Hollywood
If only those compromised and downtrodden American Jews could just get a chance in Hollywood!
Yes it's all handed to them without any of their own doing. When a Jewish person gets anything its because they "stick together" and "take people's money and never give it back". Borat had it right.
The Palestinians are victims of the biggest scam in world history.
Perpetrated by their own people.
I am? I made a Hollywood joke. You replied in a serious way, suggesting that you missed my sarcasm. My only emotion on this issue is how so many people can defend the indefensible.
The Palestinians are victims of the biggest scam in world history.
Perpetrated by their own people.
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RB:
I'm saying the status quo perfectly suits Israel's interests. They get to remain a democratic and Jewish state without having to officially cede any land (including any of Jerusalem) to a would-be Palestine. And the mechanical rhetoric that purports to desire a peaceful 2nd state keeps the American money flowing. Win/win/win.
Likud (fully pulling the strings these days) does not want or need any sort of political resolution. That's a fact. So I don't know what you expect even the more moderate elements in the WB to do. Forcefully condemn Hamas and all violence, fine. Agreed. Hamas is shit. Then what? Just say "fuck it" and move to Jordan? All ~2M of them.
7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict - ( New Window )
RB:
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Are you saying that the status quo is the best that the Palestinians can do?
I'm saying the status quo perfectly suits Israel's interests. They get to remain a democratic and Jewish state without having to officially cede any land (including any of Jerusalem) to a would-be Palestine. And the mechanical rhetoric that purports to desire a peaceful 2nd state keeps the American money flowing. Win/win/win.
Likud (fully pulling the strings these days) does not want or need any sort of political resolution. That's a fact. So I don't know what you expect even the more moderate elements in the WB to do. Forcefully condemn Hamas and all violence, fine. Agreed. Hamas is shit. Then what? Just say "fuck it" and move to Jordan? All ~2M of them.
They can't agree to a peace deal and have normalized relations (economic, political, military) with Israel - and the U.S. for that matter? What's the awful thing that would happen to them in that scenario?
Which is what?
As someone who goes back-and-forth on the conflict (if this board and another board I frequent with the polar opposite consensus among posters are any indication, I'm smack in the middle), I found this to be a very good read.
I don't think #7 will sit well with some posters here, though.
I don't get the obsession with keeping the territories in permanent limbo. At least advocate that Israel just annex them. That's far more respectable than the former which really amounts to a cowardly and banal "might makes right" position.
I don't get the obsession with keeping the territories in permanent limbo. At least advocate that Israel just annex them. That's far more respectable than the former which really amounts to a cowardly and banal "might makes right" position.
Maybe I was unclear. I think they should have their own state under those conditions. I agree that indefinite limbo is bad but if the Palestinians can't get their act together, I don't see a lot of alternatives.
Black September put a damper on that.
That said, the best way to marginalize Hamas is to formally legitimize the WB gov't by giving them a nation to govern. It's good for Israel, too, because it allows them to maintain their cherished Jewish identity. But it means that they give up some of Jerusalem and the Pals give up on RoR (it's 65 years hence, for God's sake...get over it).
Comin off a little paranoid...
"Palestine" lives under a brutal occupation? Uhmm, Israel withdrew from Gaza NINE YEARS AGO.
The first thing they did when theyn left was donate 3000 greenhouses in pristine condition worth tens of millions to the palestinian people in Gaza, who promptly trashed them and tore them up and tunnelled under them to make an underground bunker system where they could make missiles to launch at Israel with the hundreds of Millions of dollars in aid money the US , Israel and other nations ( very few from their concerned Arab brethren, BTW)gave them to help build a nation and an infrastructure.
Instead of Building a Nation, as was the intent, they spent any investment money on bunkers and bombs, underground missile factories, and invested in a culture of death, as opposed to investing in their futures and the lives of their own children.
When was there ever a nation called Palestine, BTW? They had an opportunity to form a Nation, but Hamas preferred to spend it's time quarrelling with Fatah ( who actually have a much more peaceful co-existence with Israel)over Article 9 of their charter that calls for the destruction of the Jewish state and the elimination of all it's people and trying to seize power from the PLO, instead of actually trying to achieve anything AFTER ISRAEL WITHDREW FROM GAZA NINE YEARS AGO.
As far as an "occupied nation", one of the first things Israel did after the 67 war was to offer to return all occupied lands, to which the Arabs responded with the Khartooum resolution and the 3 "NO's" , no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it.
This is a state of affairs Hamas perpetuates and desires, as it hides it's weapons and arms factories amongst women and children.
Every other govt in the world protects its people, it's children, as opposed to using their own people as human shields.
When you have something to say about Hamas and it's rejectionist ideaology, it's propensity to hold it's own people hostage, then you can talk about the "Brutal occupation" of lands Israel withdrew from almost a decade ago....
The simple fact is Hamas can renounce it's charter dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel and enter into negotiations tomorrow if they wanted to.
1st ammendment- free speech. Duh.