Because this addresses the "real" issues at play in the world today regarding Israel and Palestine...Israel does a phenomenal job winning the propaganda war, but I'm pretty sure even they would scoff at this amateur attempt at distraction.
I think it could have been said a lot better actually Â
Now link the similar article that distinguishes between Muslims and Islamic fundamentalists from one of the numerous times that some atrocity has occurred and Muslims everywhere were given a bad reputation due to it.
Now link the similar article that distinguishes between Muslims and Islamic fundamentalists from one of the numerous times that some atrocity has occurred and Muslims everywhere were given a bad reputation due to it.
Or, you can look one up yourself and link it in a new thread. This way, others who share your perspective can comment there.
hwo propalestinian protests look in England, but the ones in NY at least are virtually always peaceful and focused specifically on Israel rather then 'Jews.' Occasionally some proIsraeli clowns will drive by honking their horns and trying to incite the crowd but for the most part despite the high emotions the crowd stays focused on the message. Nontheless the article is a good reminder, especially if that's an issue in England.
I made it through my tour of the Marais district in Paris on Tuesday Â
this Jewish section of Paris had had trouble the week before with pro-Palestinian crowd welding baseball bats. It's been quiet since but there is an expanded and visible police presence and also group of Jews hanging around to watch for trouble. Our tour guide said she removed her Star of David last week. Additionally, business is suffering in the district as many tourists are staying away.
are yet another example of hatred by people who are absolutely convinced they are right and have the clear moral high ground. If only people would consider that their hatred negates whatever moral high ground they think they have. Its far to easy to slip into the mindset that your hatred is justified because the "others" are bad and you are good.
Now link the similar article that distinguishes between Muslims and Islamic fundamentalists from one of the numerous times that some atrocity has occurred and Muslims everywhere were given a bad reputation due to it.
I dont have that article but as I agree with you 100% Id love to read it.
Since these guys are full of hate, do you think they will accept being told what to do by their antagonists? They're mad and want to be provacative, so this sort of gives them a blueprint, no?
Again, nice piece, but it was written for the choir.
cousins in britain and france, vestiges of our family that survived the holocaust (many of my french cousins/great aunts/uncles did not)....and they have confirmed that the level of intimidation and fear by the significant arab/islamic diaspora in those countries is reaching scary proportions and that the events listed in that article are indeed happening (and i've seen those nazi signs/swastikas on tv at rallies here in toronto and i've had to restrain myself from drop kicking my tv).
Because this addresses the "real" issues at play in the world today regarding Israel and Palestine...Israel does a phenomenal job winning the propaganda war, but I'm pretty sure even they would scoff at this amateur attempt at distraction.
so if i understand you correctly, you think random acts of violence against european jews and racist/antisemitic taunts are a distraction?
Now link the similar article that distinguishes between Muslims and Islamic fundamentalists from one of the numerous times that some atrocity has occurred and Muslims everywhere were given a bad reputation due to it.
That's a lovely thought but a bit harder to do in real life when virtually every Muslim in the Middle Eastt (and many many elsewhere) go into riotous celebrations every time a Islamic extremist commits a suicide bombing or kidnaps and kills a few Israelis or flies a plane into a building. It's a bit harder to do when you don't hear a peep of protest from all those Muslims who supposedly abhore all the violence perpetrated by those Islamic extremists. Makes you wonder just how you distinguish between them all.
Now link the similar article that distinguishes between Muslims and Islamic fundamentalists from one of the numerous times that some atrocity has occurred and Muslims everywhere were given a bad reputation due to it.
That's a lovely thought but a bit harder to do in real life when virtually every Muslim in the Middle Eastt (and many many elsewhere) go into riotous celebrations every time a Islamic extremist commits a suicide bombing or kidnaps and kills a few Israelis or flies a plane into a building. It's a bit harder to do when you don't hear a peep of protest from all those Muslims who supposedly abhore all the violence perpetrated by those Islamic extremists. Makes you wonder just how you distinguish between them all.
Now link the similar article that distinguishes between Muslims and Islamic fundamentalists from one of the numerous times that some atrocity has occurred and Muslims everywhere were given a bad reputation due to it.
I think I agree with this.
While I absolutely, 100% support Israel in this endeavor, when talking about innocent Jews and innocent Muslims, the Muslims have faced far, far more unwarranted scrutiny than the Jews. It's not even remotely close.
a) they aren't and it's not even close
b) the entire goal of Hamas aside from killing and beheading Jews is to win a propaganda war because they can't win a real one
c) It's utterly impossible for Israel to win a propaganda war because they are firstly Jews, and secondly far more powerful than their attackers. They can't even seem to get people to use common sense by asking what they would do if provoked and attacked.
All of this fascinates and frustrates me so much because while nothing is black and white, I find it completely amazing that there is literally one side on this fight that shouts from the rooftops that they would perform a genocidal removal of all Jews from the world, and then another side that shows restraint by not turning Gaza into a smooth asphalt parking lot. Yet who do the citizens of the world support? That's right, Islamic Fascists with open intentions of killing all Jews. Or did I miss something in the Hamas charter than states otherwise.
Put even more simply, there is only one side in this argument that refuses to live with the other, and it ain't Israel. There is literally zero benefit for Israel to get into these conflicts and quite frankly their sliver of land on the map is in the worst possible location for their survival. I wish for even one second all of the supporters of Hamas would switch the situations around. Instead of billions of Muslims, imagine a mass of billions of Jews and a sliver of Muslims defending themselves. I wonder then who the world would support. Well no not really...it wouldn't be the Jews.
the word "innocent" muslims and am solely referring to the scrutiny they can receive from ignorant people, being associated with terrorism based on their religion.
Again.. all of Hamas deserves anything that happens to them and Israel has every right to be defending itself. I'm simply saying that the innocent Muslims around the world have a far harder time than the Jews.
the word "innocent" muslims and am solely referring to the scrutiny they can receive from ignorant people, being associated with terrorism based on their religion.
Again.. all of Hamas deserves anything that happens to them and Israel has every right to be defending itself. I'm simply saying that the innocent Muslims around the world have a far harder time than the Jews.
Good point. There's lots of Muslims being attacked around the world at Pro-Israel rallies.
the word "innocent" muslims and am solely referring to the scrutiny they can receive from ignorant people, being associated with terrorism based on their religion.
Again.. all of Hamas deserves anything that happens to them and Israel has every right to be defending itself. I'm simply saying that the innocent Muslims around the world have a far harder time than the Jews.
Ok so to play devil's advocate here, where in the world do Muslims have a problem living? France? England? Southeast Asia? The Mid East? Africa? Where exactly is this great struggle for safety and comfort?
In addition, there are billions of Muslims in the world, and yet so often, the worst elements of that religion rise to the top and take over nations or start militias or factions or terrorist groups....where are these innocent Muslims when it comes to stepping to the forefront and making these extremists irrelevant? Where are they when their own leaders brutalize and rape and murder and pillage their own people in places like Syria or Iraq or Iran etc etc etc etc...? Why are so many people of good moral fabric incapable of being the representatives for their religion by turning these fascist extremist radicals into exactly that, instead of keeping quiet and then suddenly shouting and screaming when Israel responds to rockets flying past their living rooms?
Sorry but someone needs to give me a real explanation of this or else it sounds like bullshit to me.
should read the academic scholarship, rather than read and share opinion pieces on football websites. Of course most people aren't interested in understanding the truth, just reaffirming their preexisting beliefs.
Now link the similar article that distinguishes between Muslims and Islamic fundamentalists from one of the numerous times that some atrocity has occurred and Muslims everywhere were given a bad reputation due to it.
That's a lovely thought but a bit harder to do in real life when virtually every Muslim in the Middle Eastt (and many many elsewhere) go into riotous celebrations every time a Islamic extremist commits a suicide bombing or kidnaps and kills a few Israelis or flies a plane into a building. It's a bit harder to do when you don't hear a peep of protest from all those Muslims who supposedly abhore all the violence perpetrated by those Islamic extremists. Makes you wonder just how you distinguish between them all.
Wow. This is terrible. Virtually every Muslim? Lol.
can you elaborate what you mean by that? Do you mean small pockets of religion whackjobs or is "citizens of the world" (COTW) an official outfit I'm not aware of. Like the Freemasons?
Comin off a little paranoid...
RE: The ''citizens of the world'' support Hamas? Â
can you elaborate what you mean by that? Do you mean small pockets of religion whackjobs or is "citizens of the world" (COTW) an official outfit I'm not aware of. Like the Freemasons?
Comin off a little paranoid...
I don't know...the masses who feel the urge to come out in public to proclaim their support for Hamas and oppose the "Zionists" for being stronger militarily?
and I do have a few concerns about the United States relationship with Israel, but Palestine? Yeah sorry dudes, way too many of you dancing & cheering in the streets on September 11, 2001. Men, women & children.
New York City is where cultures, religions & races from all over the world join and collectively make things work. Cheering for it's destruction tells me more than enough about Palestine's culture. You do not have my sympathies.
so indeed the small pockets explicitly supporting Hamas. I'm glad you agree you wildly overstated it in hopes of bolstering your point.
I'd agree myself that they're lamentable.
I am happy to debate every single detail of this issue until I am blue in the face.
In regards to my comment, there is a leadership group in place for Palestinian people, and they are aggressors in a pseudo-war that they cannot win on the battlefield. When people come out to support the Palestinians, they can't be supporting the innocent citizens if they protest Israel in the process. Israel does very little to harm the people compared to Hamas and their history of criminal leadership. This instance is just another example of Hamas putting "their" people in harms way to suit their agenda. While they steal money, sit in bunkers and own villas on the French countryside.
the word "innocent" muslims and am solely referring to the scrutiny they can receive from ignorant people, being associated with terrorism based on their religion.
Again.. all of Hamas deserves anything that happens to them and Israel has every right to be defending itself. I'm simply saying that the innocent Muslims around the world have a far harder time than the Jews.
Ok so to play devil's advocate here, where in the world do Muslims have a problem living? France? England? Southeast Asia? The Mid East? Africa? Where exactly is this great struggle for safety and comfort?
In addition, there are billions of Muslims in the world, and yet so often, the worst elements of that religion rise to the top and take over nations or start militias or factions or terrorist groups....where are these innocent Muslims when it comes to stepping to the forefront and making these extremists irrelevant? Where are they when their own leaders brutalize and rape and murder and pillage their own people in places like Syria or Iraq or Iran etc etc etc etc...? Why are so many people of good moral fabric incapable of being the representatives for their religion by turning these fascist extremist radicals into exactly that, instead of keeping quiet and then suddenly shouting and screaming when Israel responds to rockets flying past their living rooms?
Sorry but someone needs to give me a real explanation of this or else it sounds like bullshit to me.
To answer your first question, Iraq was destroyed while searching for the mysterious WMD, dissolved the government and a state of lawlessness was created, Afghanistan was destroyed for 'harboring terrorists,' PalestiniaNs are occupied and apartheid condition exist along with a mess of other things.
You mentioned Syria... they are in a current state of civil war and uprising against their corrupt government and the struggle has become brutal and bloody but they persist. You mentioned Iraq, as mentioned earlier that country was bombed, oil stolen and still being siphoned out till this day... they're going to be crawling before they can walk again for a very long time. Egypt the people stood as you suggest and demanded their military rule end and a democracy be put in place. That unfortunately took a huge step back with Sisi organizing a coup after democratic elections were finally established but it's a work in progress.
Here in America and around the world Muslims speak out and condemn terrorism, the media doesn't show that though because it's boring news.
For the posters talking about Palestinians winning the 'propaganda' wAr, propaganda would insinuate that they're not really being killed and bombed and taking on massive innocent casualties while Israel continues to wage attack in one of the most densely populated places on earth by land sea and air. I can assure you the Palestinians would much rather not be bombed/occupied then to have all this supposed 'propaganda' in their support.
You're absolutely right that the corollary of this is similarly untrue, that the conflation of Islam and fundamentalism is also unfair. But you seem to want to have your cake and eat it too, attributing an awful lot of what is wrong with the ME to the United States. Iraq was not an idyll before we went in, it was a brutal dictatorship. Syria spiraled out of control because of what we didn't do rather than what we did.
And from North Africa to Central Asia countries, whether dictatorships or theocracies or semi-democracies, have destroyed Jewish communities and Christian as well for at least as long as Israel has been a country. A demonstration gone awry is not attributable to a religion or its present spiritual leadership, but the persecution of hundreds of independent minority religious communities across ethnic, linguistic and sectarian boundaries...at a certain point it's not enough to blame a handful of vandals and thugs.
However my general thought is this. Israel will always lose the propaganda war to "neutral" observers in most of the world but it is better to be hated and alive than murdered and mourned as happened back in the 40s.
To answer your first question, Iraq was destroyed while searching for the mysterious WMD, dissolved the government and a state of lawlessness was created, Afghanistan was destroyed for 'harboring terrorists,' PalestiniaNs are occupied and apartheid condition exist along with a mess of other things.
You mentioned Syria... they are in a current state of civil war and uprising against their corrupt government and the struggle has become brutal and bloody but they persist. You mentioned Iraq, as mentioned earlier that country was bombed, oil stolen and still being siphoned out till this day... they're going to be crawling before they can walk again for a very long time. Egypt the people stood as you suggest and demanded their military rule end and a democracy be put in place. That unfortunately took a huge step back with Sisi organizing a coup after democratic elections were finally established but it's a work in progress.
Here in America and around the world Muslims speak out and condemn terrorism, the media doesn't show that though because it's boring news.
For the posters talking about Palestinians winning the 'propaganda' wAr, propaganda would insinuate that they're not really being killed and bombed and taking on massive innocent casualties while Israel continues to wage attack in one of the most densely populated places on earth by land sea and air. I can assure you the Palestinians would much rather not be bombed/occupied then to have all this supposed 'propaganda' in their support.
- Iraq was a farce. However how were those Iraqis living under Saddam? Where was Muslim leadership to assist in removal of brutal dictator who treated his own people like roaches?
- How are the Palestinians occupied? Beyond Jews living in Israel?
- I'm not talking about going on CNN and saying its rude that Hamas is awful for it's people. I am talking about action and legitimate leadership. A role in moving this religion into the 21st century alongside the rest of society. A condemnation through legitimate means, not little speeches or rhetoric in a 5 minute tv spot.
- Israel continues to respond to a continued aggression from Hamas. Hamas stops firing shit into their country, they stop responding. Only one side has refused a ceasefire. Multiple attempts at a ceasefire. Even Egypt has thrown their hands up and put blame on the side that started and continues this war. If you are concerned about the population density of the areas where Israel will respond to attacks, they why does't Hamas see this as a problem? Why doesn't Hamas understand that this has happened over and over and over and over again throughout the last 60 years and shooting rockets into people's backyards and schools, without a legitimate target, is not going to accomplish anything besides causing a much stronger enemy to respond and respond in a strong way?
- Do you recognize the restraint that Israel exhibits by not blowing Gaza off the map? Do you realize what COULD be done to the regular people in these territories if Israel let loose with their real might? And do you realize that that is exactly what would happen to Israel if Hamas and the rest of that region had the weaponry to do so? There is no shyness in proclaiming that by the enemies of Israel.
Palestinians would prefer not be on the receiving end Â
Now link the similar article that distinguishes between Muslims and Islamic fundamentalists from one of the numerous times that some atrocity has occurred and Muslims everywhere were given a bad reputation due to it.
I think I agree with this.
While I absolutely, 100% support Israel in this endeavor, when talking about innocent Jews and innocent Muslims, the Muslims have faced far, far more unwarranted scrutiny than the Jews. It's not even remotely close.
Yeah- But only if you're talking about within the United States and since 9/11. When you're talking world wide- I don't think it is all that close.
But really- what difference does it make? "My unwarranted scrutiny is worse than yours!" "I've been wronged more than you have so shut up!"
It's just silly dick measuring. Any unwarranted scrutiny/ criticism/racism or what have you is bad and should be highlighted and dispelled regardless of what side anyone is on.
the word "innocent" muslims and am solely referring to the scrutiny they can receive from ignorant people, being associated with terrorism based on their religion.
Again.. all of Hamas deserves anything that happens to them and Israel has every right to be defending itself. I'm simply saying that the innocent Muslims around the world have a far harder time than the Jews.
Good point. There's lots of Muslims being attacked around the world at Pro-Israel rallies.
Not to mention all of those Christian fanatics running amok in the Middle East and elsewhere, burning down mosques, forcing Muslims to convert or die, kidnapping, killing. Someone should do something!
if the "Palestinians" don't want to be bombed anymore, maybe they should stop firing rockets at Israel, who has a much more powerful army?
just yesterday, an additional 141 rockets were fired at Israel. are those the actions of a rational state demonstrating its desire NOT to be bombed anymore? or are those the actions of a state that desires perpetual war? and are the "Palestinians" capable of flourishing in a state of perpetual war? because it sure as shit doesn't look like it.
if "Palestinians" don't want to be bombed anymore, where are the white flags? where are the peace negotiators looking to negotiate a permanent and lasting peace with Israel? because the current message being sent by Hamas is that the rocket fire won't stop until the blockade ends. well, sorry to say, but the blockade isn't going to end anytime soon because if it did, the "Palestinians" would use suicide bombers to attack civilians in Tel Aviv. round and round we go.
so let's review - you fire dozens or hundreds of rockets at us on a daily basis. we fire back with bigger rockets because we can, while also doing our best to protect innocent civilians. you don't give a shit about innocent civilians; instead you use them to place your troops and weapons strategically. but you don't want to be bombed anymore, right? so that suggests you should negotiate. but whoops, can't do that because you have completely unreasonable and unrealistic demands, up to and including the destruction of the state of Israel.
OK, guess we'll just keep bombing you, then.
or maybe it's just that "Palestinians" are incapable of losing a war with dignity, even if it means the deaths of their own children.
As far as I can tell, you've been respectful and non-combative on this issue with BBIers even though a few have hurled personal insults towards you for your opinions. For that, you have my respect.
So with that in mind, please don't take this the wrong way:
Seth's point specifically applied to you, in my opinion. You seem to be an intelligent person who's thought these things through, but anyone should be able to see the differences between Israel and Hamas. As many articles posted here alluded to, if both sides had their way: Israel would want a two-state solution. Hamas would want Israel as a state wiped off the Earth.
So with that, I understand why people are short with you, and I totally agree with Seth's point. The fact that you are holding Israel primarily accountable is a disservice to the innocent people dying in Palestine.
Again, it is obvious that you are the type of person who would like nothing better than for peace to come to the region. But I think, and again, as respectfully as I can put it, your faith might be clouding your judgement.
But it's by Iran (and to a lesser extent Saudi Arabia) through its proxy Hamas, not Israel. Frankly, if the Palestinians were truly independent and negotiated in good faith, they'd get a far better deal from Israel than they would from anyone else in the ME.
is whether the Palestinians have the leadership to actually build a real country with a functioning society and infrastructure. They have been handed many many billion of dollars and have done nothing with it but make themselves extremely wealthy at the expense of their own people, and use the "Zionist Entity" as a distraction. In some ways, having their own sovereign recognized nation could be a disaster for those people. Because they have to then build a nation, and if as a sovereign nation they decided to attack Israel, it wouldn't be a good ending for these poor souls. There would be way less restraint.
that palestine could choose to be peaceful with israel and use their money to build infrastructure and build up their society but they use it to buy weapons and build tunnels into another country.
Why do leaders in muslim countries refuse infrastructure and wont allow the majority of the population to educate themselves. Do they hate the american way because it negates your last name and basis your success for the most part on your own free will. Why do billionaire sheiks buy airbuses to travel with and drink and party with prostitutes around the world while systematically making sure their population has none of the pleasures they enjoy on an hourly basis?
the word "innocent" muslims and am solely referring to the scrutiny they can receive from ignorant people, being associated with terrorism based on their religion.
Again.. all of Hamas deserves anything that happens to them and Israel has every right to be defending itself. I'm simply saying that the innocent Muslims around the world have a far harder time than the Jews.
Good point. There's lots of Muslims being attacked around the world at Pro-Israel rallies.
Not to mention all of those Christian fanatics running amok in the Middle East and elsewhere, burning down mosques, forcing Muslims to convert or die, kidnapping, killing. Someone should do something!
Klaatu, I guess you didn't read the article, huh. Because if you did, you'd know it was focused on people throughout Europe protesting Israel's actions and, in doing so, are being Semitic and violent towards Jews.
My point was that Muslims, here in America and everywhere else, get swooped in with those extremist qualities you just alluded to far more often than Jews are persecuted for Israel's actions... so again, please actually click the link so that you understand what a comment is referring to next time. I obviously am not equating the Jews' actions in this war to Hamas' (a point I thought was pretty clear when I said I support Israel, but you missed it even though it was in the preceding sentence).
that Palestine is independent and has authority to negotiate on its own behalf. That's just not true. If they want a deal with Israel, they have to kick out the Iranians and various other shit stirrers first.
My point was that Muslims, here in America and everywhere else, get swooped in with those extremist qualities you just alluded to far more often than Jews are persecuted for Israel's actions... so again, please actually click the link so that you understand what a comment is referring to next time. I obviously am not equating the Jews' actions in this war to Hamas' (a point I thought was pretty clear when I said I support Israel, but you missed it even though it was in the preceding sentence).
If that's your point, then I think you misread the article, seeing as it's Muslims at these rallies attacking innocent Jews (in France, the UK, elsewhere) because they associate all Jews with Israel.
So again, where are all these persecuted Muslims in America that are being attacked at pro-Israel rallies?
that Palestine is independent and has authority to negotiate on its own behalf. That's just not true. If they want a deal with Israel, they have to kick out the Iranians and various other shit stirrers first.
not only haven't they kicked them out, but they elected them to govern!
dont you think its crazy that most of the support for palestine comes from people in this country that think the right wing of politics has started a war on women because they wont pay for certain forms of birth control.
Yet they support a country that will stone a women to death for cheating on her husband by getting gang raped? They dont allow women to drive, vote, educate themselves, or leave the house without a man to accompany them. Yeah thats who we should throw our support behind those guys.
A lot of democrats agree with conservative fiscal principles yet disagree with social principles of conservatives so they vote for democrats.
Yet they would disagree with social and fiscal principles of places like palestine yet they support them
...but those claiming or intimating that Israel is not winning the propaganda war need only read Seth's posts to show just how wrong they are. Being passionate for one side is fine, but to do so by spouting almost verbatim the talking points issued by that side speaks to the efficacy of their propaganda in influencing opinions.
the idea that most of the Palestinian support comes from the left is a creation of the partisan media, meant to further divide people and drive additional traffic to partisan websites.
...but those claiming or intimating that Israel is not winning the propaganda war need only read Seth's posts to show just how wrong they are. Being passionate for one side is fine, but to do so by spouting almost verbatim the talking points issued by that side speaks to the efficacy of their propaganda in influencing opinions.
so because you deem one person's view to be propaganda, that means Israel is winning the propaganda war? and the implication is that there are no Seth-like individuals on the other side of the debate who also spout propaganda?
the idea that most of the Palestinian support comes from the left is a creation of the partisan media, meant to further divide people and drive additional traffic to partisan websites.
No, it is because the bulk of the support for Palestinians in America comes from American Muslims and from the hard left, in and out of the academy. That doesn't mean everyone on the left feels this way, even that many on the left do, or that there isn't still some anti-Semitism in pockets of the right, it's just the way it is.
I haven't read anything being said by one side. I am using history and common sense as a guide. Instead of saying I am spouting off the same things being said by Israel, how about responding to what I said with points that refute what I am saying? I don't live over there. I have no personal attachment. I just know antisemitism when i see it and hear it, and I also can see the trees from the forest on this issue. I am extremely confused how so many people do not.
the idea that most of the Palestinian support comes from the left is a creation of the partisan media, meant to further divide people and drive additional traffic to partisan websites.
M if talk radio and news are indicators on how the base of a political party feel trust me the support for israel is on the right the support for palestine is on the left.
go to a propalestine rally and find me one person who voted for Mitt Romney
in the idea that "liberals" who typically are the voice of the minority and progress etc.. are supportive of the most hardcore conservative religious radicalism that leads over there. Not to mention their not supporting the ultimate minority, especially in a place where they are surrounded by an absolutely massive majority who despises them.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: and I want to really underscore Â
My point was that Muslims, here in America and everywhere else, get swooped in with those extremist qualities you just alluded to far more often than Jews are persecuted for Israel's actions... so again, please actually click the link so that you understand what a comment is referring to next time. I obviously am not equating the Jews' actions in this war to Hamas' (a point I thought was pretty clear when I said I support Israel, but you missed it even though it was in the preceding sentence).
If that's your point, then I think you misread the article, seeing as it's Muslims at these rallies attacking innocent Jews (in France, the UK, elsewhere) because they associate all Jews with Israel.
So again, where are all these persecuted Muslims in America that are being attacked at pro-Israel rallies?
Giantsr01... I was referring to a larger scale than what's occurred over the last couple of weeks. I personally can't recall stumbling across an article of Muslims being attacked at pro-Israel rallies, so in that regard I do agree with you.
My point was more in reference to things like the protests surrounding a mosque being built in downtown Manhattan and situations like that which have transpired in otherwise liberal cities across America. Thus, I was saying that while there have been a few isolated incidences of bigotry, anti-semitism and of violence towards the Jews, since 9/11, this has been an issue for Muslims far more often. That is obviously not an excuse for these horrid events. Just a little perspective on an article that I think focuses on an issue that is a non-issue in comparison with the Hell that's currently happening along with the direct bigotry applied to the innocent on the other side of the coin.
And I once again hope my use of the word "innocent" Muslims and "innocent" Jews is recognized.
But if you're telling me that Muslims are persecuted just as much as Jews (or Christians, for that matter), sorry, I just don't buy it.
In the United States and Europe? Yes, I think the Muslims have a far harder time than Jews and certainly a harder time than Christians. The article is in reference to European protests.
In the Middle East? Obviously it's tremendously more difficult for the Jews.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: and I want to really underscore Â
Thus, I was saying that while there have been a few isolated incidences of bigotry, anti-semitism and of violence towards the Jews, since 9/11, this has been an issue for Muslims far more often.
you are a complete buffoon. there are 1.6 BILLION muslims in the world and about 14 MILLION Jews. if you perceive that Muslims suffer more persecution than Jews, then it's a matter of sheer volume, not proportions.
every now and then when you make a ludicrous statement, you should try backing off and admitting the mistake rather than digging your heels in and fighting the entire site when they tell you how dumb you are. this is another example. muslims suffer more persecution than Jews around the world? wow.
in some countries and in parts of others Muslims, especially recent immigrants, aren't necessarily as well-integrated and don't have the easiest time of it, but there is harassment, vandalism and violence against Jewish communities in Europe as well, sometimes by thugs in those Muslim communities and sometimes by the hard right that hates both Muslims and Jews but finds the Jews to be easier targets.
In The United States and Europe, especially the United States, I think there is far more tolerance towards Judaism than Islam. In the US I don't even think there is an argument in your favor, quite frankly.
And PS, I hate the word tolerance, but I can't think of a better one at the moment. No group of people should be "tolerated." They should just be people and that's it. But my point, hopefully, is clear.
The guy funded Black September and was Arafat's right-hand man. And throughout this whole ordeal, he's been dead silent. Yeah, he's a lesser of two evils, but how less is that evil?
But if you're telling me that Muslims are persecuted just as much as Jews (or Christians, for that matter), sorry, I just don't buy it.
In the United States and Europe? Yes, I think the Muslims have a far harder time than Jews and certainly a harder time than Christians. The article is in reference to European protests.
Wait, what?
Seth, I haven't made one post supporting either side... Â
...or point of view in this conflict, so asking me to refute your points seems pointless. My posts have been solely related to the propaganda side of the conflict, as evidenced by the little story in the OP in my opinion. And the notion that people agree 100% with the version being promoted by one side as some sort of coincidence, and not a result of said propaganda are the ones being naïve. I know enough to know I don't know enough about this conflict to comment, but I also know enough about the impact of PR on people's opinions and views to see it manifested liberally in this conversation.
M if talk radio and news are indicators on how the base of a political party feel trust me the support for israel is on the right the support for palestine is on the left.
well, there's your mistake, Joe. talk radio and news programs are absolutely NOT good indicators for how the base of a political party feels.
they're certainly a good indicator for how the media conglomerates want you to feel, though, so they can continue lining their pockets with the fruits of our disdain for each other.
are on your side in this issue, and that people whom you generally like or at least sympathize with are not. But over the last ten to fifteen years, maybe longer, that's pretty much been the breakdown. Some on the right support Israel because of the whole Messianic bit but for most it's just an extension of their wider views on defense and foreign policy.
Politics also plays a significant role in one’s views, according to the report: Seventy percent of conservative Republicans blame the conflict on Hamas, versus 6 percent who place the blame on Israel. Liberal Democrats, by contrast, are split, with 30 percent falling into each category.
The polling data suggests respondents from one party is strongly leaning towards one side, and respondents from another party are split or lean slightly towards the other side.
It's not some media conspiracy to demonize Democrats, and statements like "most support comes from the left" is worded in a way that suggests there's more agreement among liberals on the issue than there is (if one side is 70/6 and another is 30/30, then yes, technically most support comes from that other side despite the split opinion).
your point is never clear because you're a buffoon.
as Modus Operandi already suggested above, there's only ONE place on Earth where Muslims live free and flourish - the United States. that applies for Jews as well, of course. so there's no significant persecution against either group in the U.S. it's completely negligible.
but if you think Muslims are persecuted more in Europe than are Jews, then again, you are a buffoon. that statement is absurd on its face.
I don't much care for the guy either, but he's between a rock and a hard place.
Well, considering there's a so-called "unified" government, I would think Abbas would have some sway and influence over Hamas and the matters of the Gazans, though he's in the West Bank. Unfortunately, the only think he's done is offer a cease fire to Hamas, which they rejected.
Do you think it is completely out of bounds to say Muslim Americans face more scrutiny than American Jews?
I agree there is far more of a debate in Europe, but in the States, do you think the Jews are persecuted more than Muslims?
It was more regarding the European thing. Historically, it's not even close. Currently, again, it's not even close. How many more Muslims are there than Jews globally? You go to London and Paris and you'll feel like you're in Islamabad. And it's only growing. And yes, while the native population hasn't fully embraced the Muslim emigrants, this whole ordeal has rallied the Muslim emigrants and the European public under the banner of anti-Semitism and anti-Israel and they have united in a common cause.
RE: It's true that Palestine lives under a brutal occupation Â
But it's by Iran (and to a lesser extent Saudi Arabia) through its proxy Hamas, not Israel. Frankly, if the Palestinians were truly independent and negotiated in good faith, they'd get a far better deal from Israel than they would from anyone else in the ME.
What do you think this "better deal" would look like? The status quo serves Israel just fine. They don't want to give up the WB or any of Jerusalem to a would-be Palestine, but they also don't want to incorporate the territories into Israel because that would mean, if they want to remain a democracy, giving voting rights to millions of Muslims (which would of course make Knesset much browner...can't have that).
So instead they happily perpetuate this limbo that the territories remain in while feigning interest in a "peaceful resolution" because, and only because, America (even GOP'ers like Bush) continually pushes for it.
So you are wrong that there is some sweet deal in waiting if only Hamas would stop sandbagging its fellow Muslims to the Northeast. Israel doesn't have to do shit (because of its superior might) and doesn't want to. If you say "right on!", fair enough (and I'd agree when it comes to squishing Hamas). But call it what it is.
RE: It upsets you that people you otherwise dislike... Â
are on your side in this issue, and that people whom you generally like or at least sympathize with are not. But over the last ten to fifteen years, maybe longer, that's pretty much been the breakdown. Some on the right support Israel because of the whole Messianic bit but for most it's just an extension of their wider views on defense and foreign policy.
it doesn't upset me at all. it actually gives me hope that we can share some common ground. and i couldn't care less about the motivation. if you support Israel because you think Jesus is coming back, but only if the Jews live in Israel at the time, then I think you're out of your fucking mind, but I appreciate the support nonetheless.
as for political polls, they are extremely unreliable, owing to small sample sizes, dishonesty and bias-driven data collection among many other factors. there's a poll that can demonstrate pretty much any viewpoint that you want to demonstrate.
and even if the data are accurate, even if a greater segment of conservatives support Israel than liberals, that doesn't mean that the pro-Palestinian viewpoint or the anti-Israeli viewpoint is a "liberal" agenda. that's really what i was getting at: the phraseology used by the media to paint this as a left vs. right issue. they make more money if they are able to do that convincingly.
If that's the case, I think we're closer on this than I initially thought.
I've never been to Eastern Europe so I don't have a feel for the sentiment there. Perhaps I underestimate the Semitic culture in that region of the world.
My comment from last night was a bit sardonic. I almost always try to stay out of these discussions on here, regardless of my opinion.
Anyway, BillT's response kind of made my point. It seems that it has gotten to a point here where being Muslim has an initial stigma to it. Granted, that particular reply is an extreme instance, but there are plenty of examples of this prejudice. From newscasters or even people trying to be clever by asking "What religion was he?" when some sort of attack occurs, to shows like Homeland that propagate a stereotype about certain factions of a religion.
Now, most reasonable people will argue that "Well, obviously it's just a show," or "Well, I don't think that the person's religion is relevant at all." But the idea is that there is a subconscious bias based on religion, stemming mainly from the occurrences of 9/11, and subtly reinforced over the past 13 years.
What am I talking about exactly? Mark Cuban actually illustrated it pretty well a few months ago:
Quote:
"I know I'm prejudiced and I know I'm bigoted in a lot of different ways. If I see a black kid in a hoodie on my side of the street, I'll move to the other side of the street. If I see a white guy with a shaved head and tattoos, I'll move back to the other side of the street. None of us have pure thoughts; we all live in glass houses."
To use another, much more dated example, in Livy's "The Early History of Rome," basically the first historical text about Rome written by a Roman, he starts off by stating clearly that he "does not want to be biased." Yet throughout the text, the underlying theme is Romulus was the great brother, and Remus was the weaker, less-important sibling. Without directly saying it, he basically instills this thought in every reader's head, and paints a picture of Remus that has lasted over 2000 years, despite his "best efforts" to do the exact opposite.
There are extremist factions in every religion. However, it has gotten to a point that when most people here hear the word "Muslim," they essentially "move to the other side of the street." That's a major issue, and one that I don't think is fixable in the short-term, if ever. People need to be urged to use rational thought to get to that point. But I don't think you'll necessarily see an easily accessible article like this one, but in reference to Muslims and Palestine, to help pave the way for that. And even if there were, it wouldn't have the same effect as a visual of 9/11.
FEK - Muslims around the world aren't necessarily under the same scrutiny. The issue is in this country.
Seth - Do you mean something like the Arab Spring? Moreover, do you really believe that even if there were groups trying to, or actually demonstrating against those governments, that it would get any mainstream media attention prior to it reaching a critical mass?
As an outside observer to this - what exactly is the US Â
Gaining by providing Isreal with most of the arms in this conflict? If the state departments goal is to achieve a cease fire that seems like a strange move.
Germany, as of late, has been the most effective in curtailing Â
Gaining by providing Isreal with most of the arms in this conflict? If the state departments goal is to achieve a cease fire that seems like a strange move.
Sustainability of an ally/democratic nation in the hostile Middle East
Of international relations experts who feel that the return on that investment of our relationship with Isreal is somewhat limited. That being said I think that is an ancillary debate and one I am certainly not qualified to have - however i have no idea how you can attempt to broker a cease fire when you are actively shipping the supplies.
but there are definitely subgroups within each party that would make the polling appear the way it does:
1. Republicans have the messianic wing of the party, whose support in any matter would make me a bit uncomfortable as they likely believe in creationism and deny climate change, but whatever.
2. Democrats have the peacenik wing of the party, who see only one side with tanks and jets. There is also definitely a segment of academia that supports the Palestinians as well.
RE: Seth, I haven't made one post supporting either side... Â
...or point of view in this conflict, so asking me to refute your points seems pointless. My posts have been solely related to the propaganda side of the conflict, as evidenced by the little story in the OP in my opinion. And the notion that people agree 100% with the version being promoted by one side as some sort of coincidence, and not a result of said propaganda are the ones being naïve. I know enough to know I don't know enough about this conflict to comment, but I also know enough about the impact of PR on people's opinions and views to see it manifested liberally in this conversation.
It doesn't have to do with propaganda for me, it has to do with a wealth of evidence and history to show clear reasoning and deduction. Israeli propaganda has nothing to do with visual and audible quotes and statements from those in power and those who influence the masses. Propaganda is irrelevant when the leadership of a group makes a proud openly public statement that the goal is genocide and the country of Israel is but a figment of everyone's imagination. That it is a false unrecognized state because of the people who exist there and their religion.
Aspano! -
Seth - Do you mean something like the Arab Spring? Moreover, do you really believe that even if there were groups trying to, or actually demonstrating against those governments, that it would get any mainstream media attention prior to it reaching a critical mass?
Arab Spring is a fine example of an uprising that leads to a vacuum of leadership and utter chaos. The Arab Spring was not a fight for a legitimate free society, but instead was an ouster of a hated ruler who had tormented people for decades. One dictator leaves and a group of tyrants replace him. So to use your example, in the face of admirable expression of unhappiness and despair through uprising, the result is not a leadership group of stable, legitimate people but instead opens the floodgates to allow another bad representation group to take over.
WIthout the world's heavy assistance, how many of these Islamic nations would exist in a state of calm and peace and unity? Even within Islam there are too many factions and wings who despise one another for there to be a focused and progressive civilization. It's tragic. But also self inflicted.
Just to add an interesting tidbit to the party line debate Â
But an astonishingly large percentage of US private money given to Isreal (want to say 80%) actually comes from southern Bible Belt groups. Vice recently had a report on that which was pretty fascinating. There is a belief that Isreal needs to be united for certain passages of revelation to be fulfilled and thus trigger the second coming. The point of view taken (it's vice so take it with a grain of salt) was that this money that was earkmarked for factions against a 2 state was actually one of the largest destabilizing factors in the area right now.
RE: Just to add an interesting tidbit to the party line debate Â
But an astonishingly large percentage of US private money given to Isreal (want to say 80%) actually comes from southern Bible Belt groups. Vice recently had a report on that which was pretty fascinating. There is a belief that Isreal needs to be united for certain passages of revelation to be fulfilled and thus trigger the second coming. The point of view taken (it's vice so take it with a grain of salt) was that this money that was earkmarked for factions against a 2 state was actually one of the largest destabilizing factors in the area right now.
Why take with a grain of salt? They do good work. They is fo real.
Now link the similar article that distinguishes between Muslims and Islamic fundamentalists from one of the numerous times that some atrocity has occurred and Muslims everywhere were given a bad reputation due to it.
Excellent point -- you should write one.
RE: Just to add an interesting tidbit to the party line debate Â
But an astonishingly large percentage of US private money given to Isreal (want to say 80%) actually comes from southern Bible Belt groups. Vice recently had a report on that which was pretty fascinating. There is a belief that Isreal needs to be united for certain passages of revelation to be fulfilled and thus trigger the second coming. The point of view taken (it's vice so take it with a grain of salt) was that this money that was earkmarked for factions against a 2 state was actually one of the largest destabilizing factors in the area right now.
Yes. They are crazy people.
That is a well-known and unfortunate faction of meddlers. Jerry Falwell was the best (worst) example who, while simultaneously pushing anti-semitism in US circles, demagogued endlessly about the supposed "holy land" at the expense of peace efforts. He even sucked up to Menachem Begin not, of course, out of concern for Israel itself but for preserving the spot where Jesus was to beam down into.
I'm not super familiar with the topic, but I would think that the desired end result of people ousting one dictator was not to bring in another oppressive regime to replace it. So perhaps it is self-inflicted, but is that intentional? And what is the reason that these types of governments keep coming into power?
Getting back to my original point, I still believe that there is a negative stigma associated with the word Muslim in this country. And my hope is that people take the time to recognize it and learn a little bit, rather than throw out "OH THEY HATE AMERICA" immediately.
I love vice - but like any individual they have an Â
Opinion on what they are showing and that generally comes through. That being said they are at least attempting to bring certain issues to discussion which IMO makes them better than 99% of the rest of the media.
Because this addresses the "real" issues at play in the world today regarding Israel and Palestine...Israel does a phenomenal job winning the propaganda war, but I'm pretty sure even they would scoff at this amateur attempt at distraction.
I've read your comments and do't really understand what you are saying.
Does your subject line refer to the original article and are you suggesting that the basic premise of distinguishing disagreement from the policy of a particular Israeli Government and Antisemitism is a 'useless' point?
Could you please expand on that?
Secondly you seem to introduce another argument that Israel is winning the propaganda war. What is your basis? If anything I think the opposite is true. TV goes for the money shot and their repeated closeups of maimed and/or dead children (horrible indeed) is an oversimplification of a tragic situation. In fact one such shot was the result of contradictory claims including an Israeli one saying the deaths was in fact the result of a wayward Hamas missile. I'm not saying either side should be believed without solid proof, but both BBC America and CNN reported the 'fact' that the victims were targets of an Israeli missile without the appropriate quantification.
Granted this is just one example, but I would still like proof that Israel is winning the propaganda war. And perhaps more telling, we should be less concerned about propaganda and more on trying to unpack the complicated and tragic events in Gaza and Southern Israel as well as its relationship to the carnage occurring in the rest of the region (especially Syria and Iraq.)
I'm not super familiar with the topic, but I would think that the desired end result of people ousting one dictator was not to bring in another oppressive regime to replace it. So perhaps it is self-inflicted, but is that intentional? And what is the reason that these types of governments keep coming into power?
Getting back to my original point, I still believe that there is a negative stigma associated with the word Muslim in this country. And my hope is that people take the time to recognize it and learn a little bit, rather than throw out "OH THEY HATE AMERICA" immediately.
It is really unfortunate (although I am no fan of any organized religion really). It's just tough to deny that when the WTC gets blown up twice, it's radical Muslims. When the USS Cole gets bombed, its radical Muslims. Plane hijackings...mall massacres...beheadings...women being tortured and stoned and hung...vitriolic hate speech towards Jews and Westerners, as well as homosexuals and "infidels"...Holocaust denying..flag burning....infighting between groups such as the Sunni and Shiites...Teaching children that Jews drink the blood of Muslims...the Taliban...suicide bombings all over the world...
Its a damn shame that this shit is the truth but this shit is the truth. The elements of that religion that do these things make it tough for a regular Joe to see it all as rainbows and peace and love. There's a lot of clear evidence in front of your face everyday that there is something repetitive and common that colors your opinion.
One thing that I believe however is that if there were a proportional amount of the exact same behavior from factions of Jews, the reactions would be intense and angry and not as accepting that "they aren't all like that". Jews fight an uphill climb when they defend their country or work in Hollywood let alone slicing a reporter's head off or burying a woman up to her neck in the middle of a field while people throw boulders at her head.
Gallup and Pew polls are valid and reliable data points Â
I also think that people conflate Europeans disliking immigrants with their dislike of a certain religious group.
Several countries dislike immigrants in Europe. But a large fraction of these immigrants are Muslim, simply because of the law of numbers. It's not that they dislike the religion; it's that they dislike that the people are foreign-born.
RE: Gallup and Pew polls are valid and reliable data points Â
I also think that people conflate Europeans disliking immigrants with their dislike of a certain religious group.
Several countries dislike immigrants in Europe. But a large fraction of these immigrants are Muslim, simply because of the law of numbers. It's not that they dislike the religion; it's that they dislike that the people are foreign-born.
that Israel is winning the propaganda war is completely laughable.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, the conflict in Gaza wouldn't be the most talked about conflict around the world. It would be Syria where the death rate is 100 times that of what's happening in Gaza.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, the hashtag #GazaUnderAttack wouldn't be as popular as it is and wouldn't be overrun with images of dead Syrians, Iraqis and Israelis (at the hands of Hamas) being paraded around as dead Gazans.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be more focus on the thousands of rockets launched at Israel and that the reason Israel has so few civilian casualties is that in addition to the Iron Dome, Israelis heed their sirens and they all evacuate to bomb shelters to stay safe. If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be a full scale derision of Hamas for why they ahven't built a single bomb shelter for its people but rather used up to hundreds of thousands of tons of concrete to build terror tunnels instead.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be relentless questions as to why Palestine has nothing to show for the billions and billions it has received in aid since Israel withdrew-- there would be hard investigatiosn into all of the money put to tunnels, and not to shelters, hospitals, or schools, as well as why the people of Gaza are so brutally poor yet their Palestinian leaders tend to be billionaires (from Meshal to Arafat) and Meshal hobnobs in Qatar.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be a significant focus on Egypt who by closing the Rafah crossing have blockaded Gaza and would be co-"occupiers."
If Israel were winning the propaganda war the entire world would be condemning Palestine for the deaths of 160 Palestininan children just in building the terror tunnels (and that was as of 2011-12).
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, Israel (and Jews) would not be compared to Nazis (which is lunacy) and this would not be called an ethnic cleansing or a genocide (especially when these things are actually happening around the world-- see Christians in Iraq). It's gotten to the point where Israeli Arab Christians are now denouncing themselves as Arabs, declaring themselves as Israeli, and are protesting against Arab Muslims and against Hamas
(http://tlv1.fm/news/so-much-to-say/2014/07/28/israeli-arab-christians-take-streets-haifa-unusual-protest-2/#_=1406824292679&id=twitter-widget-0&lang=en&screen_name=TLV1Radio&show_count=false&show_screen_name=true&size=m)
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be a focus on what Hamas did to those associated with Fatah as soon as they gained power in Gaza.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be a huge focus on how Israeli Arabs have it better and freer in Israel than perhaps in any other in the Middle East.
Finally, if Israel were winning the propaganda war, everyone would keep bringing up the decades of suicide bombing, that when radical Islamists are in power, they create brutal, murderous conditions across the entire Middle East and North Africa, from beheadings, to stoning child rape victims unless they become child brides, to female genital mutilation, to beheadings for speaking out against Islam.
If Israel were truly winning the propaganda war, then worldwide observers would take notice of the disparity of Muslims to Jews (over 100:1), look at every country where radical Islam rules, and see how their people are treated and seriously question what makes Hamas different in that they just want peace and freedom for their people.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, the world would look at radical Islam and remember their international terrorist attacks on the US, England, France, Spain, Sweden, India, and others, as well as look at what they are doing to Christians in Iraq and know that they aren't speaking hot air when they call for death to all Jews and an extermination of the state of Israel.
Israel is not winning the propaganda war. Not even close.
The current head of Hamas is a wealthy man living in Qatar. Oh yeah these guys care about their people. Each of the tunnels IDF has found are sophisticated engineering jobs that people estimate cost about $3 million each. So far the IDF has found 30 of them.
Do the math. Yet their own people suffer. Let's see...$10 for me...10 cents for you. That's real leadership.
RE: It's true that Palestine lives under a brutal occupation Â
But it's by Iran (and to a lesser extent Saudi Arabia) through its proxy Hamas, not Israel. Frankly, if the Palestinians were truly independent and negotiated in good faith, they'd get a far better deal from Israel than they would from anyone else in the ME.
Which is why the best thing would be for Israel to eliminate Hamas and liberate the Palestinian people from them. Whether the Palestinians would then accept peace and co-existance is another thing.
And why our government is supporting Qatar and Turkey while they spew a bunch of nonsense on this subject is beyond me. Even Saudia Arabia and Egypt want Israel to do away with Hamas. This is more an Arab/Muslim Civil War by proxy than an I/P conflict.
Do you think it is completely out of bounds to say Muslim Americans face more scrutiny than American Jews?
I agree there is far more of a debate in Europe, but in the States, do you think the Jews are persecuted more than Muslims?
Where do you think Muslims are persecuted in the US? I regularly see stories about Nazi graffiti on Jewish cemeteries and other buildings. There is still strong Anti-Jewish feelings in Europe and the US.
RE: RE: It's true that Palestine lives under a brutal occupation Â
But it's by Iran (and to a lesser extent Saudi Arabia) through its proxy Hamas, not Israel. Frankly, if the Palestinians were truly independent and negotiated in good faith, they'd get a far better deal from Israel than they would from anyone else in the ME.
What do you think this "better deal" would look like? The status quo serves Israel just fine. They don't want to give up the WB or any of Jerusalem to a would-be Palestine, but they also don't want to incorporate the territories into Israel because that would mean, if they want to remain a democracy, giving voting rights to millions of Muslims (which would of course make Knesset much browner...can't have that).
So instead they happily perpetuate this limbo that the territories remain in while feigning interest in a "peaceful resolution" because, and only because, America (even GOP'ers like Bush) continually pushes for it.
So you are wrong that there is some sweet deal in waiting if only Hamas would stop sandbagging its fellow Muslims to the Northeast. Israel doesn't have to do shit (because of its superior might) and doesn't want to. If you say "right on!", fair enough (and I'd agree when it comes to squishing Hamas). But call it what it is.
Are you saying that the status quo is the best that the Palestinians can do?
Jews fight an uphill climb when they defend their country or work in Hollywood
If only those compromised and downtrodden American Jews could just get a chance in Hollywood!
Yes it's all handed to them without any of their own doing. When a Jewish person gets anything its because they "stick together" and "take people's money and never give it back". Borat had it right.
dude you are visibly emotional and consequently mildly paranoid when it comes to this issue. Which gets in the way of what are indeed some compelling points throughout your posts.
have been given the Palestinians over the years. Yet all they have to show for it are new classes of wealthy PLO and Hamas leaders. The Palestinians deserve leaders with integrity and respect for their fellow man. Instead of blaming the Jews, put all that foreign aid money into REAL infrastructure improvement. Raise their standard of living, Israel has nothing to do with that.
The Palestinians are victims of the biggest scam in world history.
Perpetrated by their own people.
dude you are visibly emotional and consequently mildly paranoid when it comes to this issue. Which gets in the way of what are indeed some compelling points throughout your posts.
I am? I made a Hollywood joke. You replied in a serious way, suggesting that you missed my sarcasm. My only emotion on this issue is how so many people can defend the indefensible.
have been given the Palestinians over the years. Yet all they have to show for it are new classes of wealthy PLO and Hamas leaders. The Palestinians deserve leaders with integrity and respect for their fellow man. Instead of blaming the Jews, put all that foreign aid money into REAL infrastructure improvement. Raise their standard of living, Israel has nothing to do with that.
The Palestinians are victims of the biggest scam in world history.
Perpetrated by their own people.
a sarcastic joke summarily followed up by a reference to decapitation and murder by stoning. Not sure you'd make it in Hollywood bro (on second thought, give Tarantino a call...)
RB:
Quote:
Are you saying that the status quo is the best that the Palestinians can do?
I'm saying the status quo perfectly suits Israel's interests. They get to remain a democratic and Jewish state without having to officially cede any land (including any of Jerusalem) to a would-be Palestine. And the mechanical rhetoric that purports to desire a peaceful 2nd state keeps the American money flowing. Win/win/win.
Likud (fully pulling the strings these days) does not want or need any sort of political resolution. That's a fact. So I don't know what you expect even the more moderate elements in the WB to do. Forcefully condemn Hamas and all violence, fine. Agreed. Hamas is shit. Then what? Just say "fuck it" and move to Jordan? All ~2M of them.
Perhaps a victim of the Israeli propaganda machine Â
a sarcastic joke summarily followed up by a reference to decapitation and murder by stoning. Not sure you'd make it in Hollywood bro (on second thought, give Tarantino a call...)
RB:
Quote:
Are you saying that the status quo is the best that the Palestinians can do?
I'm saying the status quo perfectly suits Israel's interests. They get to remain a democratic and Jewish state without having to officially cede any land (including any of Jerusalem) to a would-be Palestine. And the mechanical rhetoric that purports to desire a peaceful 2nd state keeps the American money flowing. Win/win/win.
Likud (fully pulling the strings these days) does not want or need any sort of political resolution. That's a fact. So I don't know what you expect even the more moderate elements in the WB to do. Forcefully condemn Hamas and all violence, fine. Agreed. Hamas is shit. Then what? Just say "fuck it" and move to Jordan? All ~2M of them.
They can't agree to a peace deal and have normalized relations (economic, political, military) with Israel - and the U.S. for that matter? What's the awful thing that would happen to them in that scenario?
but he has links etc.. and disdusses the topics spoken about here 7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict - ( New Window )
As someone who goes back-and-forth on the conflict (if this board and another board I frequent with the polar opposite consensus among posters are any indication, I'm smack in the middle), I found this to be a very good read.
I don't think #7 will sit well with some posters here, though.
If they were able to achieve normalized relations, RB Â
based in relative peace, then why at that point do they not deserve a state of their own? Especially if the Palestinians give up on RoR (they should). I really just do not get that position. The US, EU, UN (I know, I know...) and Israel endorse this. Certain Israeli factions begrudgingly to appease America (although less so Olmert who was oftentimes constructive) but there is pretty widespread agreement across the board.
I don't get the obsession with keeping the territories in permanent limbo. At least advocate that Israel just annex them. That's far more respectable than the former which really amounts to a cowardly and banal "might makes right" position.
It's simple math. There are only a limited number of ways a bi-national Jewish state with a non-Jewish majority population can retain its Jewish identity. And none of them are pretty
RE: If they were able to achieve normalized relations, RB Â
based in relative peace, then why at that point do they not deserve a state of their own? Especially if the Palestinians give up on RoR (they should). I really just do not get that position. The US, EU, UN (I know, I know...) and Israel endorse this. Certain Israeli factions begrudgingly to appease America (although less so Olmert who was oftentimes constructive) but there is pretty widespread agreement across the board.
I don't get the obsession with keeping the territories in permanent limbo. At least advocate that Israel just annex them. That's far more respectable than the former which really amounts to a cowardly and banal "might makes right" position.
Maybe I was unclear. I think they should have their own state under those conditions. I agree that indefinite limbo is bad but if the Palestinians can't get their act together, I don't see a lot of alternatives.
the Palestinians have been largely a mess and indefensible. Although Abbas is easily less bad than Arafat, he too has proven ineffectual and blew probably the best chance at a resolution with the generally more conciliatory Olmert.
That said, the best way to marginalize Hamas is to formally legitimize the WB gov't by giving them a nation to govern. It's good for Israel, too, because it allows them to maintain their cherished Jewish identity. But it means that they give up some of Jerusalem and the Pals give up on RoR (it's 65 years hence, for God's sake...get over it).
RE: The ''citizens of the world'' support Hamas? Â
can you elaborate what you mean by that? Do you mean small pockets of religion whackjobs or is "citizens of the world" (COTW) an official outfit I'm not aware of. Like the Freemasons?
Comin off a little paranoid...
He might possibly be talklng about Great Britain, who opposed the U.S attempts to get Hamas classified as a terrorist organization for decades, even as the British govt allowed Hamas to run it's global HQ out of London.Or any of the other European nations where antisemitism is in vogue.Like France.
But it's by Iran (and to a lesser extent Saudi Arabia) through its proxy Hamas, not Israel. Frankly, if the Palestinians were truly independent and negotiated in good faith, they'd get a far better deal from Israel than they would from anyone else in the ME.
"Palestine" lives under a brutal occupation? Uhmm, Israel withdrew from Gaza NINE YEARS AGO.
The first thing they did when theyn left was donate 3000 greenhouses in pristine condition worth tens of millions to the palestinian people in Gaza, who promptly trashed them and tore them up and tunnelled under them to make an underground bunker system where they could make missiles to launch at Israel with the hundreds of Millions of dollars in aid money the US , Israel and other nations ( very few from their concerned Arab brethren, BTW)gave them to help build a nation and an infrastructure.
Instead of Building a Nation, as was the intent, they spent any investment money on bunkers and bombs, underground missile factories, and invested in a culture of death, as opposed to investing in their futures and the lives of their own children.
When was there ever a nation called Palestine, BTW? They had an opportunity to form a Nation, but Hamas preferred to spend it's time quarrelling with Fatah ( who actually have a much more peaceful co-existence with Israel)over Article 9 of their charter that calls for the destruction of the Jewish state and the elimination of all it's people and trying to seize power from the PLO, instead of actually trying to achieve anything AFTER ISRAEL WITHDREW FROM GAZA NINE YEARS AGO.
As far as an "occupied nation", one of the first things Israel did after the 67 war was to offer to return all occupied lands, to which the Arabs responded with the Khartooum resolution and the 3 "NO's" , no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it.
This is a state of affairs Hamas perpetuates and desires, as it hides it's weapons and arms factories amongst women and children.
Every other govt in the world protects its people, it's children, as opposed to using their own people as human shields.
When you have something to say about Hamas and it's rejectionist ideaology, it's propensity to hold it's own people hostage, then you can talk about the "Brutal occupation" of lands Israel withdrew from almost a decade ago....
that Palestine is independent and has authority to negotiate on its own behalf. That's just not true. If they want a deal with Israel, they have to kick out the Iranians and various other shit stirrers first.
That is not true, the fact is article 9 of the PLO charter calls for the destruction of Israel, and is is the Arabs league who decided it will not recognize or negotiate with Israel.
The simple fact is Hamas can renounce it's charter dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel and enter into negotiations tomorrow if they wanted to.
Or, you can look one up yourself and link it in a new thread. This way, others who share your perspective can comment there.
Humbly suggesting that swastikas are a poor fashion accession isn't especially pompous.
I dont have that article but as I agree with you 100% Id love to read it.
Again, nice piece, but it was written for the choir.
so if i understand you correctly, you think random acts of violence against european jews and racist/antisemitic taunts are a distraction?
That's a lovely thought but a bit harder to do in real life when virtually every Muslim in the Middle Eastt (and many many elsewhere) go into riotous celebrations every time a Islamic extremist commits a suicide bombing or kidnaps and kills a few Israelis or flies a plane into a building. It's a bit harder to do when you don't hear a peep of protest from all those Muslims who supposedly abhore all the violence perpetrated by those Islamic extremists. Makes you wonder just how you distinguish between them all.
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Now link the similar article that distinguishes between Muslims and Islamic fundamentalists from one of the numerous times that some atrocity has occurred and Muslims everywhere were given a bad reputation due to it.
That's a lovely thought but a bit harder to do in real life when virtually every Muslim in the Middle Eastt (and many many elsewhere) go into riotous celebrations every time a Islamic extremist commits a suicide bombing or kidnaps and kills a few Israelis or flies a plane into a building. It's a bit harder to do when you don't hear a peep of protest from all those Muslims who supposedly abhore all the violence perpetrated by those Islamic extremists. Makes you wonder just how you distinguish between them all.
Absolutely wrong. How do you know that??
I think I agree with this.
While I absolutely, 100% support Israel in this endeavor, when talking about innocent Jews and innocent Muslims, the Muslims have faced far, far more unwarranted scrutiny than the Jews. It's not even remotely close.
a) they aren't and it's not even close
b) the entire goal of Hamas aside from killing and beheading Jews is to win a propaganda war because they can't win a real one
c) It's utterly impossible for Israel to win a propaganda war because they are firstly Jews, and secondly far more powerful than their attackers. They can't even seem to get people to use common sense by asking what they would do if provoked and attacked.
All of this fascinates and frustrates me so much because while nothing is black and white, I find it completely amazing that there is literally one side on this fight that shouts from the rooftops that they would perform a genocidal removal of all Jews from the world, and then another side that shows restraint by not turning Gaza into a smooth asphalt parking lot. Yet who do the citizens of the world support? That's right, Islamic Fascists with open intentions of killing all Jews. Or did I miss something in the Hamas charter than states otherwise.
Put even more simply, there is only one side in this argument that refuses to live with the other, and it ain't Israel. There is literally zero benefit for Israel to get into these conflicts and quite frankly their sliver of land on the map is in the worst possible location for their survival. I wish for even one second all of the supporters of Hamas would switch the situations around. Instead of billions of Muslims, imagine a mass of billions of Jews and a sliver of Muslims defending themselves. I wonder then who the world would support. Well no not really...it wouldn't be the Jews.
Again.. all of Hamas deserves anything that happens to them and Israel has every right to be defending itself. I'm simply saying that the innocent Muslims around the world have a far harder time than the Jews.
Again.. all of Hamas deserves anything that happens to them and Israel has every right to be defending itself. I'm simply saying that the innocent Muslims around the world have a far harder time than the Jews.
Good point. There's lots of Muslims being attacked around the world at Pro-Israel rallies.
Again.. all of Hamas deserves anything that happens to them and Israel has every right to be defending itself. I'm simply saying that the innocent Muslims around the world have a far harder time than the Jews.
Ok so to play devil's advocate here, where in the world do Muslims have a problem living? France? England? Southeast Asia? The Mid East? Africa? Where exactly is this great struggle for safety and comfort?
In addition, there are billions of Muslims in the world, and yet so often, the worst elements of that religion rise to the top and take over nations or start militias or factions or terrorist groups....where are these innocent Muslims when it comes to stepping to the forefront and making these extremists irrelevant? Where are they when their own leaders brutalize and rape and murder and pillage their own people in places like Syria or Iraq or Iran etc etc etc etc...? Why are so many people of good moral fabric incapable of being the representatives for their religion by turning these fascist extremist radicals into exactly that, instead of keeping quiet and then suddenly shouting and screaming when Israel responds to rockets flying past their living rooms?
Sorry but someone needs to give me a real explanation of this or else it sounds like bullshit to me.
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Now link the similar article that distinguishes between Muslims and Islamic fundamentalists from one of the numerous times that some atrocity has occurred and Muslims everywhere were given a bad reputation due to it.
That's a lovely thought but a bit harder to do in real life when virtually every Muslim in the Middle Eastt (and many many elsewhere) go into riotous celebrations every time a Islamic extremist commits a suicide bombing or kidnaps and kills a few Israelis or flies a plane into a building. It's a bit harder to do when you don't hear a peep of protest from all those Muslims who supposedly abhore all the violence perpetrated by those Islamic extremists. Makes you wonder just how you distinguish between them all.
Wow. This is terrible. Virtually every Muslim? Lol.
Comin off a little paranoid...
Comin off a little paranoid...
I don't know...the masses who feel the urge to come out in public to proclaim their support for Hamas and oppose the "Zionists" for being stronger militarily?
I'd agree myself that they're lamentable.
New York City is where cultures, religions & races from all over the world join and collectively make things work. Cheering for it's destruction tells me more than enough about Palestine's culture. You do not have my sympathies.
I'd agree myself that they're lamentable.
I am happy to debate every single detail of this issue until I am blue in the face.
In regards to my comment, there is a leadership group in place for Palestinian people, and they are aggressors in a pseudo-war that they cannot win on the battlefield. When people come out to support the Palestinians, they can't be supporting the innocent citizens if they protest Israel in the process. Israel does very little to harm the people compared to Hamas and their history of criminal leadership. This instance is just another example of Hamas putting "their" people in harms way to suit their agenda. While they steal money, sit in bunkers and own villas on the French countryside.
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the word "innocent" muslims and am solely referring to the scrutiny they can receive from ignorant people, being associated with terrorism based on their religion.
Again.. all of Hamas deserves anything that happens to them and Israel has every right to be defending itself. I'm simply saying that the innocent Muslims around the world have a far harder time than the Jews.
Ok so to play devil's advocate here, where in the world do Muslims have a problem living? France? England? Southeast Asia? The Mid East? Africa? Where exactly is this great struggle for safety and comfort?
In addition, there are billions of Muslims in the world, and yet so often, the worst elements of that religion rise to the top and take over nations or start militias or factions or terrorist groups....where are these innocent Muslims when it comes to stepping to the forefront and making these extremists irrelevant? Where are they when their own leaders brutalize and rape and murder and pillage their own people in places like Syria or Iraq or Iran etc etc etc etc...? Why are so many people of good moral fabric incapable of being the representatives for their religion by turning these fascist extremist radicals into exactly that, instead of keeping quiet and then suddenly shouting and screaming when Israel responds to rockets flying past their living rooms?
Sorry but someone needs to give me a real explanation of this or else it sounds like bullshit to me.
To answer your first question, Iraq was destroyed while searching for the mysterious WMD, dissolved the government and a state of lawlessness was created, Afghanistan was destroyed for 'harboring terrorists,' PalestiniaNs are occupied and apartheid condition exist along with a mess of other things.
You mentioned Syria... they are in a current state of civil war and uprising against their corrupt government and the struggle has become brutal and bloody but they persist. You mentioned Iraq, as mentioned earlier that country was bombed, oil stolen and still being siphoned out till this day... they're going to be crawling before they can walk again for a very long time. Egypt the people stood as you suggest and demanded their military rule end and a democracy be put in place. That unfortunately took a huge step back with Sisi organizing a coup after democratic elections were finally established but it's a work in progress.
Here in America and around the world Muslims speak out and condemn terrorism, the media doesn't show that though because it's boring news.
For the posters talking about Palestinians winning the 'propaganda' wAr, propaganda would insinuate that they're not really being killed and bombed and taking on massive innocent casualties while Israel continues to wage attack in one of the most densely populated places on earth by land sea and air. I can assure you the Palestinians would much rather not be bombed/occupied then to have all this supposed 'propaganda' in their support.
They shouldnt worry about the Jews and Christians as much as they should worry about different charters within their own religion.
And from North Africa to Central Asia countries, whether dictatorships or theocracies or semi-democracies, have destroyed Jewish communities and Christian as well for at least as long as Israel has been a country. A demonstration gone awry is not attributable to a religion or its present spiritual leadership, but the persecution of hundreds of independent minority religious communities across ethnic, linguistic and sectarian boundaries...at a certain point it's not enough to blame a handful of vandals and thugs.
To answer your first question, Iraq was destroyed while searching for the mysterious WMD, dissolved the government and a state of lawlessness was created, Afghanistan was destroyed for 'harboring terrorists,' PalestiniaNs are occupied and apartheid condition exist along with a mess of other things.
You mentioned Syria... they are in a current state of civil war and uprising against their corrupt government and the struggle has become brutal and bloody but they persist. You mentioned Iraq, as mentioned earlier that country was bombed, oil stolen and still being siphoned out till this day... they're going to be crawling before they can walk again for a very long time. Egypt the people stood as you suggest and demanded their military rule end and a democracy be put in place. That unfortunately took a huge step back with Sisi organizing a coup after democratic elections were finally established but it's a work in progress.
Here in America and around the world Muslims speak out and condemn terrorism, the media doesn't show that though because it's boring news.
For the posters talking about Palestinians winning the 'propaganda' wAr, propaganda would insinuate that they're not really being killed and bombed and taking on massive innocent casualties while Israel continues to wage attack in one of the most densely populated places on earth by land sea and air. I can assure you the Palestinians would much rather not be bombed/occupied then to have all this supposed 'propaganda' in their support.
- Iraq was a farce. However how were those Iraqis living under Saddam? Where was Muslim leadership to assist in removal of brutal dictator who treated his own people like roaches?
- How are the Palestinians occupied? Beyond Jews living in Israel?
- I'm not talking about going on CNN and saying its rude that Hamas is awful for it's people. I am talking about action and legitimate leadership. A role in moving this religion into the 21st century alongside the rest of society. A condemnation through legitimate means, not little speeches or rhetoric in a 5 minute tv spot.
- Israel continues to respond to a continued aggression from Hamas. Hamas stops firing shit into their country, they stop responding. Only one side has refused a ceasefire. Multiple attempts at a ceasefire. Even Egypt has thrown their hands up and put blame on the side that started and continues this war. If you are concerned about the population density of the areas where Israel will respond to attacks, they why does't Hamas see this as a problem? Why doesn't Hamas understand that this has happened over and over and over and over again throughout the last 60 years and shooting rockets into people's backyards and schools, without a legitimate target, is not going to accomplish anything besides causing a much stronger enemy to respond and respond in a strong way?
- Do you recognize the restraint that Israel exhibits by not blowing Gaza off the map? Do you realize what COULD be done to the regular people in these territories if Israel let loose with their real might? And do you realize that that is exactly what would happen to Israel if Hamas and the rest of that region had the weaponry to do so? There is no shyness in proclaiming that by the enemies of Israel.
Don't forget pre-invasion Iraq, that great wellspring of freedom, prosperity and tolerance.
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Now link the similar article that distinguishes between Muslims and Islamic fundamentalists from one of the numerous times that some atrocity has occurred and Muslims everywhere were given a bad reputation due to it.
I think I agree with this.
While I absolutely, 100% support Israel in this endeavor, when talking about innocent Jews and innocent Muslims, the Muslims have faced far, far more unwarranted scrutiny than the Jews. It's not even remotely close.
Yeah- But only if you're talking about within the United States and since 9/11. When you're talking world wide- I don't think it is all that close.
But really- what difference does it make? "My unwarranted scrutiny is worse than yours!" "I've been wronged more than you have so shut up!"
It's just silly dick measuring. Any unwarranted scrutiny/ criticism/racism or what have you is bad and should be highlighted and dispelled regardless of what side anyone is on.
IMO.
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the word "innocent" muslims and am solely referring to the scrutiny they can receive from ignorant people, being associated with terrorism based on their religion.
Again.. all of Hamas deserves anything that happens to them and Israel has every right to be defending itself. I'm simply saying that the innocent Muslims around the world have a far harder time than the Jews.
Good point. There's lots of Muslims being attacked around the world at Pro-Israel rallies.
Not to mention all of those Christian fanatics running amok in the Middle East and elsewhere, burning down mosques, forcing Muslims to convert or die, kidnapping, killing. Someone should do something!
if the "Palestinians" don't want to be bombed anymore, maybe they should stop firing rockets at Israel, who has a much more powerful army?
just yesterday, an additional 141 rockets were fired at Israel. are those the actions of a rational state demonstrating its desire NOT to be bombed anymore? or are those the actions of a state that desires perpetual war? and are the "Palestinians" capable of flourishing in a state of perpetual war? because it sure as shit doesn't look like it.
if "Palestinians" don't want to be bombed anymore, where are the white flags? where are the peace negotiators looking to negotiate a permanent and lasting peace with Israel? because the current message being sent by Hamas is that the rocket fire won't stop until the blockade ends. well, sorry to say, but the blockade isn't going to end anytime soon because if it did, the "Palestinians" would use suicide bombers to attack civilians in Tel Aviv. round and round we go.
so let's review - you fire dozens or hundreds of rockets at us on a daily basis. we fire back with bigger rockets because we can, while also doing our best to protect innocent civilians. you don't give a shit about innocent civilians; instead you use them to place your troops and weapons strategically. but you don't want to be bombed anymore, right? so that suggests you should negotiate. but whoops, can't do that because you have completely unreasonable and unrealistic demands, up to and including the destruction of the state of Israel.
OK, guess we'll just keep bombing you, then.
or maybe it's just that "Palestinians" are incapable of losing a war with dignity, even if it means the deaths of their own children.
So with that in mind, please don't take this the wrong way:
Seth's point specifically applied to you, in my opinion. You seem to be an intelligent person who's thought these things through, but anyone should be able to see the differences between Israel and Hamas. As many articles posted here alluded to, if both sides had their way: Israel would want a two-state solution. Hamas would want Israel as a state wiped off the Earth.
So with that, I understand why people are short with you, and I totally agree with Seth's point. The fact that you are holding Israel primarily accountable is a disservice to the innocent people dying in Palestine.
Again, it is obvious that you are the type of person who would like nothing better than for peace to come to the region. But I think, and again, as respectfully as I can put it, your faith might be clouding your judgement.
I don't think it's even close in that case, either.
Why do leaders in muslim countries refuse infrastructure and wont allow the majority of the population to educate themselves. Do they hate the american way because it negates your last name and basis your success for the most part on your own free will. Why do billionaire sheiks buy airbuses to travel with and drink and party with prostitutes around the world while systematically making sure their population has none of the pleasures they enjoy on an hourly basis?
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In comment 11787884 Mike in Long Beach said:
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the word "innocent" muslims and am solely referring to the scrutiny they can receive from ignorant people, being associated with terrorism based on their religion.
Again.. all of Hamas deserves anything that happens to them and Israel has every right to be defending itself. I'm simply saying that the innocent Muslims around the world have a far harder time than the Jews.
Good point. There's lots of Muslims being attacked around the world at Pro-Israel rallies.
Not to mention all of those Christian fanatics running amok in the Middle East and elsewhere, burning down mosques, forcing Muslims to convert or die, kidnapping, killing. Someone should do something!
Klaatu, I guess you didn't read the article, huh. Because if you did, you'd know it was focused on people throughout Europe protesting Israel's actions and, in doing so, are being Semitic and violent towards Jews.
My point was that Muslims, here in America and everywhere else, get swooped in with those extremist qualities you just alluded to far more often than Jews are persecuted for Israel's actions... so again, please actually click the link so that you understand what a comment is referring to next time. I obviously am not equating the Jews' actions in this war to Hamas' (a point I thought was pretty clear when I said I support Israel, but you missed it even though it was in the preceding sentence).
My point was that Muslims, here in America and everywhere else, get swooped in with those extremist qualities you just alluded to far more often than Jews are persecuted for Israel's actions... so again, please actually click the link so that you understand what a comment is referring to next time. I obviously am not equating the Jews' actions in this war to Hamas' (a point I thought was pretty clear when I said I support Israel, but you missed it even though it was in the preceding sentence).
If that's your point, then I think you misread the article, seeing as it's Muslims at these rallies attacking innocent Jews (in France, the UK, elsewhere) because they associate all Jews with Israel.
So again, where are all these persecuted Muslims in America that are being attacked at pro-Israel rallies?
not only haven't they kicked them out, but they elected them to govern!
yup, totally Israel's fault.
Yet they support a country that will stone a women to death for cheating on her husband by getting gang raped? They dont allow women to drive, vote, educate themselves, or leave the house without a man to accompany them. Yeah thats who we should throw our support behind those guys.
A lot of democrats agree with conservative fiscal principles yet disagree with social principles of conservatives so they vote for democrats.
Yet they would disagree with social and fiscal principles of places like palestine yet they support them
There's only one I can think of.
so because you deem one person's view to be propaganda, that means Israel is winning the propaganda war? and the implication is that there are no Seth-like individuals on the other side of the debate who also spout propaganda?
dumbest shit i've ever read.
No, it is because the bulk of the support for Palestinians in America comes from American Muslims and from the hard left, in and out of the academy. That doesn't mean everyone on the left feels this way, even that many on the left do, or that there isn't still some anti-Semitism in pockets of the right, it's just the way it is.
I haven't read anything being said by one side. I am using history and common sense as a guide. Instead of saying I am spouting off the same things being said by Israel, how about responding to what I said with points that refute what I am saying? I don't live over there. I have no personal attachment. I just know antisemitism when i see it and hear it, and I also can see the trees from the forest on this issue. I am extremely confused how so many people do not.
M if talk radio and news are indicators on how the base of a political party feel trust me the support for israel is on the right the support for palestine is on the left.
go to a propalestine rally and find me one person who voted for Mitt Romney
It's not a creation of partisan media.
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My point was that Muslims, here in America and everywhere else, get swooped in with those extremist qualities you just alluded to far more often than Jews are persecuted for Israel's actions... so again, please actually click the link so that you understand what a comment is referring to next time. I obviously am not equating the Jews' actions in this war to Hamas' (a point I thought was pretty clear when I said I support Israel, but you missed it even though it was in the preceding sentence).
If that's your point, then I think you misread the article, seeing as it's Muslims at these rallies attacking innocent Jews (in France, the UK, elsewhere) because they associate all Jews with Israel.
So again, where are all these persecuted Muslims in America that are being attacked at pro-Israel rallies?
Giantsr01... I was referring to a larger scale than what's occurred over the last couple of weeks. I personally can't recall stumbling across an article of Muslims being attacked at pro-Israel rallies, so in that regard I do agree with you.
My point was more in reference to things like the protests surrounding a mosque being built in downtown Manhattan and situations like that which have transpired in otherwise liberal cities across America. Thus, I was saying that while there have been a few isolated incidences of bigotry, anti-semitism and of violence towards the Jews, since 9/11, this has been an issue for Muslims far more often. That is obviously not an excuse for these horrid events. Just a little perspective on an article that I think focuses on an issue that is a non-issue in comparison with the Hell that's currently happening along with the direct bigotry applied to the innocent on the other side of the coin.
And I once again hope my use of the word "innocent" Muslims and "innocent" Jews is recognized.
It's not a creation of partisan media.
LOL. the day anyone wins an argument with a Gallup poll is the day the internet collapses into itself and vanishes in a wink.
In the United States and Europe? Yes, I think the Muslims have a far harder time than Jews and certainly a harder time than Christians. The article is in reference to European protests.
In the Middle East? Obviously it's tremendously more difficult for the Jews.
you are a complete buffoon. there are 1.6 BILLION muslims in the world and about 14 MILLION Jews. if you perceive that Muslims suffer more persecution than Jews, then it's a matter of sheer volume, not proportions.
every now and then when you make a ludicrous statement, you should try backing off and admitting the mistake rather than digging your heels in and fighting the entire site when they tell you how dumb you are. this is another example. muslims suffer more persecution than Jews around the world? wow.
And PS, I hate the word tolerance, but I can't think of a better one at the moment. No group of people should be "tolerated." They should just be people and that's it. But my point, hopefully, is clear.
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But if you're telling me that Muslims are persecuted just as much as Jews (or Christians, for that matter), sorry, I just don't buy it.
In the United States and Europe? Yes, I think the Muslims have a far harder time than Jews and certainly a harder time than Christians. The article is in reference to European protests.
Wait, what?
well, there's your mistake, Joe. talk radio and news programs are absolutely NOT good indicators for how the base of a political party feels.
they're certainly a good indicator for how the media conglomerates want you to feel, though, so they can continue lining their pockets with the fruits of our disdain for each other.
Especially given the difference in population
The polling data suggests respondents from one party is strongly leaning towards one side, and respondents from another party are split or lean slightly towards the other side.
It's not some media conspiracy to demonize Democrats, and statements like "most support comes from the left" is worded in a way that suggests there's more agreement among liberals on the issue than there is (if one side is 70/6 and another is 30/30, then yes, technically most support comes from that other side despite the split opinion).
your point is never clear because you're a buffoon.
as Modus Operandi already suggested above, there's only ONE place on Earth where Muslims live free and flourish - the United States. that applies for Jews as well, of course. so there's no significant persecution against either group in the U.S. it's completely negligible.
but if you think Muslims are persecuted more in Europe than are Jews, then again, you are a buffoon. that statement is absurd on its face.
Well, considering there's a so-called "unified" government, I would think Abbas would have some sway and influence over Hamas and the matters of the Gazans, though he's in the West Bank. Unfortunately, the only think he's done is offer a cease fire to Hamas, which they rejected.
I agree there is far more of a debate in Europe, but in the States, do you think the Jews are persecuted more than Muslims?
I agree there is far more of a debate in Europe, but in the States, do you think the Jews are persecuted more than Muslims?
It was more regarding the European thing. Historically, it's not even close. Currently, again, it's not even close. How many more Muslims are there than Jews globally? You go to London and Paris and you'll feel like you're in Islamabad. And it's only growing. And yes, while the native population hasn't fully embraced the Muslim emigrants, this whole ordeal has rallied the Muslim emigrants and the European public under the banner of anti-Semitism and anti-Israel and they have united in a common cause.
What do you think this "better deal" would look like? The status quo serves Israel just fine. They don't want to give up the WB or any of Jerusalem to a would-be Palestine, but they also don't want to incorporate the territories into Israel because that would mean, if they want to remain a democracy, giving voting rights to millions of Muslims (which would of course make Knesset much browner...can't have that).
So instead they happily perpetuate this limbo that the territories remain in while feigning interest in a "peaceful resolution" because, and only because, America (even GOP'ers like Bush) continually pushes for it.
So you are wrong that there is some sweet deal in waiting if only Hamas would stop sandbagging its fellow Muslims to the Northeast. Israel doesn't have to do shit (because of its superior might) and doesn't want to. If you say "right on!", fair enough (and I'd agree when it comes to squishing Hamas). But call it what it is.
it doesn't upset me at all. it actually gives me hope that we can share some common ground. and i couldn't care less about the motivation. if you support Israel because you think Jesus is coming back, but only if the Jews live in Israel at the time, then I think you're out of your fucking mind, but I appreciate the support nonetheless.
as for political polls, they are extremely unreliable, owing to small sample sizes, dishonesty and bias-driven data collection among many other factors. there's a poll that can demonstrate pretty much any viewpoint that you want to demonstrate.
and even if the data are accurate, even if a greater segment of conservatives support Israel than liberals, that doesn't mean that the pro-Palestinian viewpoint or the anti-Israeli viewpoint is a "liberal" agenda. that's really what i was getting at: the phraseology used by the media to paint this as a left vs. right issue. they make more money if they are able to do that convincingly.
I've never been to Eastern Europe so I don't have a feel for the sentiment there. Perhaps I underestimate the Semitic culture in that region of the world.
Anyway, BillT's response kind of made my point. It seems that it has gotten to a point here where being Muslim has an initial stigma to it. Granted, that particular reply is an extreme instance, but there are plenty of examples of this prejudice. From newscasters or even people trying to be clever by asking "What religion was he?" when some sort of attack occurs, to shows like Homeland that propagate a stereotype about certain factions of a religion.
Now, most reasonable people will argue that "Well, obviously it's just a show," or "Well, I don't think that the person's religion is relevant at all." But the idea is that there is a subconscious bias based on religion, stemming mainly from the occurrences of 9/11, and subtly reinforced over the past 13 years.
What am I talking about exactly? Mark Cuban actually illustrated it pretty well a few months ago:
To use another, much more dated example, in Livy's "The Early History of Rome," basically the first historical text about Rome written by a Roman, he starts off by stating clearly that he "does not want to be biased." Yet throughout the text, the underlying theme is Romulus was the great brother, and Remus was the weaker, less-important sibling. Without directly saying it, he basically instills this thought in every reader's head, and paints a picture of Remus that has lasted over 2000 years, despite his "best efforts" to do the exact opposite.
There are extremist factions in every religion. However, it has gotten to a point that when most people here hear the word "Muslim," they essentially "move to the other side of the street." That's a major issue, and one that I don't think is fixable in the short-term, if ever. People need to be urged to use rational thought to get to that point. But I don't think you'll necessarily see an easily accessible article like this one, but in reference to Muslims and Palestine, to help pave the way for that. And even if there were, it wouldn't have the same effect as a visual of 9/11.
FEK - Muslims around the world aren't necessarily under the same scrutiny. The issue is in this country.
Seth - Do you mean something like the Arab Spring? Moreover, do you really believe that even if there were groups trying to, or actually demonstrating against those governments, that it would get any mainstream media attention prior to it reaching a critical mass?
Sustainability of an ally/democratic nation in the hostile Middle East
1. Republicans have the messianic wing of the party, whose support in any matter would make me a bit uncomfortable as they likely believe in creationism and deny climate change, but whatever.
2. Democrats have the peacenik wing of the party, who see only one side with tanks and jets. There is also definitely a segment of academia that supports the Palestinians as well.
It doesn't have to do with propaganda for me, it has to do with a wealth of evidence and history to show clear reasoning and deduction. Israeli propaganda has nothing to do with visual and audible quotes and statements from those in power and those who influence the masses. Propaganda is irrelevant when the leadership of a group makes a proud openly public statement that the goal is genocide and the country of Israel is but a figment of everyone's imagination. That it is a false unrecognized state because of the people who exist there and their religion.
Aspano! -
Seth - Do you mean something like the Arab Spring? Moreover, do you really believe that even if there were groups trying to, or actually demonstrating against those governments, that it would get any mainstream media attention prior to it reaching a critical mass?
Arab Spring is a fine example of an uprising that leads to a vacuum of leadership and utter chaos. The Arab Spring was not a fight for a legitimate free society, but instead was an ouster of a hated ruler who had tormented people for decades. One dictator leaves and a group of tyrants replace him. So to use your example, in the face of admirable expression of unhappiness and despair through uprising, the result is not a leadership group of stable, legitimate people but instead opens the floodgates to allow another bad representation group to take over.
WIthout the world's heavy assistance, how many of these Islamic nations would exist in a state of calm and peace and unity? Even within Islam there are too many factions and wings who despise one another for there to be a focused and progressive civilization. It's tragic. But also self inflicted.
Why take with a grain of salt? They do good work. They is fo real.
Excellent point -- you should write one.
Yes. They are crazy people.
That is a well-known and unfortunate faction of meddlers. Jerry Falwell was the best (worst) example who, while simultaneously pushing anti-semitism in US circles, demagogued endlessly about the supposed "holy land" at the expense of peace efforts. He even sucked up to Menachem Begin not, of course, out of concern for Israel itself but for preserving the spot where Jesus was to beam down into.
Crazy people.
Getting back to my original point, I still believe that there is a negative stigma associated with the word Muslim in this country. And my hope is that people take the time to recognize it and learn a little bit, rather than throw out "OH THEY HATE AMERICA" immediately.
I've read your comments and do't really understand what you are saying.
Does your subject line refer to the original article and are you suggesting that the basic premise of distinguishing disagreement from the policy of a particular Israeli Government and Antisemitism is a 'useless' point?
Could you please expand on that?
Secondly you seem to introduce another argument that Israel is winning the propaganda war. What is your basis? If anything I think the opposite is true. TV goes for the money shot and their repeated closeups of maimed and/or dead children (horrible indeed) is an oversimplification of a tragic situation. In fact one such shot was the result of contradictory claims including an Israeli one saying the deaths was in fact the result of a wayward Hamas missile. I'm not saying either side should be believed without solid proof, but both BBC America and CNN reported the 'fact' that the victims were targets of an Israeli missile without the appropriate quantification.
Granted this is just one example, but I would still like proof that Israel is winning the propaganda war. And perhaps more telling, we should be less concerned about propaganda and more on trying to unpack the complicated and tragic events in Gaza and Southern Israel as well as its relationship to the carnage occurring in the rest of the region (especially Syria and Iraq.)
Getting back to my original point, I still believe that there is a negative stigma associated with the word Muslim in this country. And my hope is that people take the time to recognize it and learn a little bit, rather than throw out "OH THEY HATE AMERICA" immediately.
It is really unfortunate (although I am no fan of any organized religion really). It's just tough to deny that when the WTC gets blown up twice, it's radical Muslims. When the USS Cole gets bombed, its radical Muslims. Plane hijackings...mall massacres...beheadings...women being tortured and stoned and hung...vitriolic hate speech towards Jews and Westerners, as well as homosexuals and "infidels"...Holocaust denying..flag burning....infighting between groups such as the Sunni and Shiites...Teaching children that Jews drink the blood of Muslims...the Taliban...suicide bombings all over the world...
Its a damn shame that this shit is the truth but this shit is the truth. The elements of that religion that do these things make it tough for a regular Joe to see it all as rainbows and peace and love. There's a lot of clear evidence in front of your face everyday that there is something repetitive and common that colors your opinion.
One thing that I believe however is that if there were a proportional amount of the exact same behavior from factions of Jews, the reactions would be intense and angry and not as accepting that "they aren't all like that". Jews fight an uphill climb when they defend their country or work in Hollywood let alone slicing a reporter's head off or burying a woman up to her neck in the middle of a field while people throw boulders at her head.
I also think that people conflate Europeans disliking immigrants with their dislike of a certain religious group.
Several countries dislike immigrants in Europe. But a large fraction of these immigrants are Muslim, simply because of the law of numbers. It's not that they dislike the religion; it's that they dislike that the people are foreign-born.
I also think that people conflate Europeans disliking immigrants with their dislike of a certain religious group.
Several countries dislike immigrants in Europe. But a large fraction of these immigrants are Muslim, simply because of the law of numbers. It's not that they dislike the religion; it's that they dislike that the people are foreign-born.
100% agree with that.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, the conflict in Gaza wouldn't be the most talked about conflict around the world. It would be Syria where the death rate is 100 times that of what's happening in Gaza.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, the hashtag #GazaUnderAttack wouldn't be as popular as it is and wouldn't be overrun with images of dead Syrians, Iraqis and Israelis (at the hands of Hamas) being paraded around as dead Gazans.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be more focus on the thousands of rockets launched at Israel and that the reason Israel has so few civilian casualties is that in addition to the Iron Dome, Israelis heed their sirens and they all evacuate to bomb shelters to stay safe. If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be a full scale derision of Hamas for why they ahven't built a single bomb shelter for its people but rather used up to hundreds of thousands of tons of concrete to build terror tunnels instead.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be relentless questions as to why Palestine has nothing to show for the billions and billions it has received in aid since Israel withdrew-- there would be hard investigatiosn into all of the money put to tunnels, and not to shelters, hospitals, or schools, as well as why the people of Gaza are so brutally poor yet their Palestinian leaders tend to be billionaires (from Meshal to Arafat) and Meshal hobnobs in Qatar.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be a significant focus on Egypt who by closing the Rafah crossing have blockaded Gaza and would be co-"occupiers."
If Israel were winning the propaganda war the entire world would be condemning Palestine for the deaths of 160 Palestininan children just in building the terror tunnels (and that was as of 2011-12).
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, Israel (and Jews) would not be compared to Nazis (which is lunacy) and this would not be called an ethnic cleansing or a genocide (especially when these things are actually happening around the world-- see Christians in Iraq). It's gotten to the point where Israeli Arab Christians are now denouncing themselves as Arabs, declaring themselves as Israeli, and are protesting against Arab Muslims and against Hamas
(http://tlv1.fm/news/so-much-to-say/2014/07/28/israeli-arab-christians-take-streets-haifa-unusual-protest-2/#_=1406824292679&id=twitter-widget-0&lang=en&screen_name=TLV1Radio&show_count=false&show_screen_name=true&size=m)
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be a focus on what Hamas did to those associated with Fatah as soon as they gained power in Gaza.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, there would be a huge focus on how Israeli Arabs have it better and freer in Israel than perhaps in any other in the Middle East.
Finally, if Israel were winning the propaganda war, everyone would keep bringing up the decades of suicide bombing, that when radical Islamists are in power, they create brutal, murderous conditions across the entire Middle East and North Africa, from beheadings, to stoning child rape victims unless they become child brides, to female genital mutilation, to beheadings for speaking out against Islam.
If Israel were truly winning the propaganda war, then worldwide observers would take notice of the disparity of Muslims to Jews (over 100:1), look at every country where radical Islam rules, and see how their people are treated and seriously question what makes Hamas different in that they just want peace and freedom for their people.
If Israel were winning the propaganda war, the world would look at radical Islam and remember their international terrorist attacks on the US, England, France, Spain, Sweden, India, and others, as well as look at what they are doing to Christians in Iraq and know that they aren't speaking hot air when they call for death to all Jews and an extermination of the state of Israel.
Israel is not winning the propaganda war. Not even close.
If only those compromised and downtrodden American Jews could just get a chance in Hollywood!
Do the math. Yet their own people suffer. Let's see...$10 for me...10 cents for you. That's real leadership.
Which is why the best thing would be for Israel to eliminate Hamas and liberate the Palestinian people from them. Whether the Palestinians would then accept peace and co-existance is another thing.
And why our government is supporting Qatar and Turkey while they spew a bunch of nonsense on this subject is beyond me. Even Saudia Arabia and Egypt want Israel to do away with Hamas. This is more an Arab/Muslim Civil War by proxy than an I/P conflict.
I agree there is far more of a debate in Europe, but in the States, do you think the Jews are persecuted more than Muslims?
Where do you think Muslims are persecuted in the US? I regularly see stories about Nazi graffiti on Jewish cemeteries and other buildings. There is still strong Anti-Jewish feelings in Europe and the US.
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But it's by Iran (and to a lesser extent Saudi Arabia) through its proxy Hamas, not Israel. Frankly, if the Palestinians were truly independent and negotiated in good faith, they'd get a far better deal from Israel than they would from anyone else in the ME.
What do you think this "better deal" would look like? The status quo serves Israel just fine. They don't want to give up the WB or any of Jerusalem to a would-be Palestine, but they also don't want to incorporate the territories into Israel because that would mean, if they want to remain a democracy, giving voting rights to millions of Muslims (which would of course make Knesset much browner...can't have that).
So instead they happily perpetuate this limbo that the territories remain in while feigning interest in a "peaceful resolution" because, and only because, America (even GOP'ers like Bush) continually pushes for it.
So you are wrong that there is some sweet deal in waiting if only Hamas would stop sandbagging its fellow Muslims to the Northeast. Israel doesn't have to do shit (because of its superior might) and doesn't want to. If you say "right on!", fair enough (and I'd agree when it comes to squishing Hamas). But call it what it is.
Are you saying that the status quo is the best that the Palestinians can do?
Touchy, touchy. Love your work, Mr Brooks.
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Jews fight an uphill climb when they defend their country or work in Hollywood
If only those compromised and downtrodden American Jews could just get a chance in Hollywood!
Yes it's all handed to them without any of their own doing. When a Jewish person gets anything its because they "stick together" and "take people's money and never give it back". Borat had it right.
The Palestinians are victims of the biggest scam in world history.
Perpetrated by their own people.
I am? I made a Hollywood joke. You replied in a serious way, suggesting that you missed my sarcasm. My only emotion on this issue is how so many people can defend the indefensible.
The Palestinians are victims of the biggest scam in world history.
Perpetrated by their own people.
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RB:
I'm saying the status quo perfectly suits Israel's interests. They get to remain a democratic and Jewish state without having to officially cede any land (including any of Jerusalem) to a would-be Palestine. And the mechanical rhetoric that purports to desire a peaceful 2nd state keeps the American money flowing. Win/win/win.
Likud (fully pulling the strings these days) does not want or need any sort of political resolution. That's a fact. So I don't know what you expect even the more moderate elements in the WB to do. Forcefully condemn Hamas and all violence, fine. Agreed. Hamas is shit. Then what? Just say "fuck it" and move to Jordan? All ~2M of them.
7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict - ( New Window )
RB:
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Are you saying that the status quo is the best that the Palestinians can do?
I'm saying the status quo perfectly suits Israel's interests. They get to remain a democratic and Jewish state without having to officially cede any land (including any of Jerusalem) to a would-be Palestine. And the mechanical rhetoric that purports to desire a peaceful 2nd state keeps the American money flowing. Win/win/win.
Likud (fully pulling the strings these days) does not want or need any sort of political resolution. That's a fact. So I don't know what you expect even the more moderate elements in the WB to do. Forcefully condemn Hamas and all violence, fine. Agreed. Hamas is shit. Then what? Just say "fuck it" and move to Jordan? All ~2M of them.
They can't agree to a peace deal and have normalized relations (economic, political, military) with Israel - and the U.S. for that matter? What's the awful thing that would happen to them in that scenario?
Which is what?
As someone who goes back-and-forth on the conflict (if this board and another board I frequent with the polar opposite consensus among posters are any indication, I'm smack in the middle), I found this to be a very good read.
I don't think #7 will sit well with some posters here, though.
I don't get the obsession with keeping the territories in permanent limbo. At least advocate that Israel just annex them. That's far more respectable than the former which really amounts to a cowardly and banal "might makes right" position.
I don't get the obsession with keeping the territories in permanent limbo. At least advocate that Israel just annex them. That's far more respectable than the former which really amounts to a cowardly and banal "might makes right" position.
Maybe I was unclear. I think they should have their own state under those conditions. I agree that indefinite limbo is bad but if the Palestinians can't get their act together, I don't see a lot of alternatives.
Black September put a damper on that.
That said, the best way to marginalize Hamas is to formally legitimize the WB gov't by giving them a nation to govern. It's good for Israel, too, because it allows them to maintain their cherished Jewish identity. But it means that they give up some of Jerusalem and the Pals give up on RoR (it's 65 years hence, for God's sake...get over it).
Comin off a little paranoid...
"Palestine" lives under a brutal occupation? Uhmm, Israel withdrew from Gaza NINE YEARS AGO.
The first thing they did when theyn left was donate 3000 greenhouses in pristine condition worth tens of millions to the palestinian people in Gaza, who promptly trashed them and tore them up and tunnelled under them to make an underground bunker system where they could make missiles to launch at Israel with the hundreds of Millions of dollars in aid money the US , Israel and other nations ( very few from their concerned Arab brethren, BTW)gave them to help build a nation and an infrastructure.
Instead of Building a Nation, as was the intent, they spent any investment money on bunkers and bombs, underground missile factories, and invested in a culture of death, as opposed to investing in their futures and the lives of their own children.
When was there ever a nation called Palestine, BTW? They had an opportunity to form a Nation, but Hamas preferred to spend it's time quarrelling with Fatah ( who actually have a much more peaceful co-existence with Israel)over Article 9 of their charter that calls for the destruction of the Jewish state and the elimination of all it's people and trying to seize power from the PLO, instead of actually trying to achieve anything AFTER ISRAEL WITHDREW FROM GAZA NINE YEARS AGO.
As far as an "occupied nation", one of the first things Israel did after the 67 war was to offer to return all occupied lands, to which the Arabs responded with the Khartooum resolution and the 3 "NO's" , no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it.
This is a state of affairs Hamas perpetuates and desires, as it hides it's weapons and arms factories amongst women and children.
Every other govt in the world protects its people, it's children, as opposed to using their own people as human shields.
When you have something to say about Hamas and it's rejectionist ideaology, it's propensity to hold it's own people hostage, then you can talk about the "Brutal occupation" of lands Israel withdrew from almost a decade ago....
The simple fact is Hamas can renounce it's charter dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel and enter into negotiations tomorrow if they wanted to.
1st ammendment- free speech. Duh.