if the "Palestinians" don't want to be bombed anymore, maybe they should stop firing rockets at Israel, who has a much more powerful army?
just yesterday, an additional 141 rockets were fired at Israel. are those the actions of a rational state demonstrating its desire NOT to be bombed anymore? or are those the actions of a state that desires perpetual war? and are the "Palestinians" capable of flourishing in a state of perpetual war? because it sure as shit doesn't look like it.
if "Palestinians" don't want to be bombed anymore, where are the white flags? where are the peace negotiators looking to negotiate a permanent and lasting peace with Israel? because the current message being sent by Hamas is that the rocket fire won't stop until the blockade ends. well, sorry to say, but the blockade isn't going to end anytime soon because if it did, the "Palestinians" would use suicide bombers to attack civilians in Tel Aviv. round and round we go.
so let's review - you fire dozens or hundreds of rockets at us on a daily basis. we fire back with bigger rockets because we can, while also doing our best to protect innocent civilians. you don't give a shit about innocent civilians; instead you use them to place your troops and weapons strategically. but you don't want to be bombed anymore, right? so that suggests you should negotiate. but whoops, can't do that because you have completely unreasonable and unrealistic demands, up to and including the destruction of the state of Israel.
OK, guess we'll just keep bombing you, then.
or maybe it's just that "Palestinians" are incapable of losing a war with dignity, even if it means the deaths of their own children.
As far as I can tell, you've been respectful and non-combative on this issue with BBIers even though a few have hurled personal insults towards you for your opinions. For that, you have my respect.
So with that in mind, please don't take this the wrong way:
Seth's point specifically applied to you, in my opinion. You seem to be an intelligent person who's thought these things through, but anyone should be able to see the differences between Israel and Hamas. As many articles posted here alluded to, if both sides had their way: Israel would want a two-state solution. Hamas would want Israel as a state wiped off the Earth.
So with that, I understand why people are short with you, and I totally agree with Seth's point. The fact that you are holding Israel primarily accountable is a disservice to the innocent people dying in Palestine.
Again, it is obvious that you are the type of person who would like nothing better than for peace to come to the region. But I think, and again, as respectfully as I can put it, your faith might be clouding your judgement.
But it's by Iran (and to a lesser extent Saudi Arabia) through its proxy Hamas, not Israel. Frankly, if the Palestinians were truly independent and negotiated in good faith, they'd get a far better deal from Israel than they would from anyone else in the ME.
is whether the Palestinians have the leadership to actually build a real country with a functioning society and infrastructure. They have been handed many many billion of dollars and have done nothing with it but make themselves extremely wealthy at the expense of their own people, and use the "Zionist Entity" as a distraction. In some ways, having their own sovereign recognized nation could be a disaster for those people. Because they have to then build a nation, and if as a sovereign nation they decided to attack Israel, it wouldn't be a good ending for these poor souls. There would be way less restraint.
that palestine could choose to be peaceful with israel and use their money to build infrastructure and build up their society but they use it to buy weapons and build tunnels into another country.
Why do leaders in muslim countries refuse infrastructure and wont allow the majority of the population to educate themselves. Do they hate the american way because it negates your last name and basis your success for the most part on your own free will. Why do billionaire sheiks buy airbuses to travel with and drink and party with prostitutes around the world while systematically making sure their population has none of the pleasures they enjoy on an hourly basis?
the word "innocent" muslims and am solely referring to the scrutiny they can receive from ignorant people, being associated with terrorism based on their religion.
Again.. all of Hamas deserves anything that happens to them and Israel has every right to be defending itself. I'm simply saying that the innocent Muslims around the world have a far harder time than the Jews.
Good point. There's lots of Muslims being attacked around the world at Pro-Israel rallies.
Not to mention all of those Christian fanatics running amok in the Middle East and elsewhere, burning down mosques, forcing Muslims to convert or die, kidnapping, killing. Someone should do something!
Klaatu, I guess you didn't read the article, huh. Because if you did, you'd know it was focused on people throughout Europe protesting Israel's actions and, in doing so, are being Semitic and violent towards Jews.
My point was that Muslims, here in America and everywhere else, get swooped in with those extremist qualities you just alluded to far more often than Jews are persecuted for Israel's actions... so again, please actually click the link so that you understand what a comment is referring to next time. I obviously am not equating the Jews' actions in this war to Hamas' (a point I thought was pretty clear when I said I support Israel, but you missed it even though it was in the preceding sentence).
that Palestine is independent and has authority to negotiate on its own behalf. That's just not true. If they want a deal with Israel, they have to kick out the Iranians and various other shit stirrers first.
My point was that Muslims, here in America and everywhere else, get swooped in with those extremist qualities you just alluded to far more often than Jews are persecuted for Israel's actions... so again, please actually click the link so that you understand what a comment is referring to next time. I obviously am not equating the Jews' actions in this war to Hamas' (a point I thought was pretty clear when I said I support Israel, but you missed it even though it was in the preceding sentence).
If that's your point, then I think you misread the article, seeing as it's Muslims at these rallies attacking innocent Jews (in France, the UK, elsewhere) because they associate all Jews with Israel.
So again, where are all these persecuted Muslims in America that are being attacked at pro-Israel rallies?
that Palestine is independent and has authority to negotiate on its own behalf. That's just not true. If they want a deal with Israel, they have to kick out the Iranians and various other shit stirrers first.
not only haven't they kicked them out, but they elected them to govern!
dont you think its crazy that most of the support for palestine comes from people in this country that think the right wing of politics has started a war on women because they wont pay for certain forms of birth control.
Yet they support a country that will stone a women to death for cheating on her husband by getting gang raped? They dont allow women to drive, vote, educate themselves, or leave the house without a man to accompany them. Yeah thats who we should throw our support behind those guys.
A lot of democrats agree with conservative fiscal principles yet disagree with social principles of conservatives so they vote for democrats.
Yet they would disagree with social and fiscal principles of places like palestine yet they support them
...but those claiming or intimating that Israel is not winning the propaganda war need only read Seth's posts to show just how wrong they are. Being passionate for one side is fine, but to do so by spouting almost verbatim the talking points issued by that side speaks to the efficacy of their propaganda in influencing opinions.
the idea that most of the Palestinian support comes from the left is a creation of the partisan media, meant to further divide people and drive additional traffic to partisan websites.
...but those claiming or intimating that Israel is not winning the propaganda war need only read Seth's posts to show just how wrong they are. Being passionate for one side is fine, but to do so by spouting almost verbatim the talking points issued by that side speaks to the efficacy of their propaganda in influencing opinions.
so because you deem one person's view to be propaganda, that means Israel is winning the propaganda war? and the implication is that there are no Seth-like individuals on the other side of the debate who also spout propaganda?
the idea that most of the Palestinian support comes from the left is a creation of the partisan media, meant to further divide people and drive additional traffic to partisan websites.
No, it is because the bulk of the support for Palestinians in America comes from American Muslims and from the hard left, in and out of the academy. That doesn't mean everyone on the left feels this way, even that many on the left do, or that there isn't still some anti-Semitism in pockets of the right, it's just the way it is.
I haven't read anything being said by one side. I am using history and common sense as a guide. Instead of saying I am spouting off the same things being said by Israel, how about responding to what I said with points that refute what I am saying? I don't live over there. I have no personal attachment. I just know antisemitism when i see it and hear it, and I also can see the trees from the forest on this issue. I am extremely confused how so many people do not.
the idea that most of the Palestinian support comes from the left is a creation of the partisan media, meant to further divide people and drive additional traffic to partisan websites.
M if talk radio and news are indicators on how the base of a political party feel trust me the support for israel is on the right the support for palestine is on the left.
go to a propalestine rally and find me one person who voted for Mitt Romney
in the idea that "liberals" who typically are the voice of the minority and progress etc.. are supportive of the most hardcore conservative religious radicalism that leads over there. Not to mention their not supporting the ultimate minority, especially in a place where they are surrounded by an absolutely massive majority who despises them.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: and I want to really underscore Â
My point was that Muslims, here in America and everywhere else, get swooped in with those extremist qualities you just alluded to far more often than Jews are persecuted for Israel's actions... so again, please actually click the link so that you understand what a comment is referring to next time. I obviously am not equating the Jews' actions in this war to Hamas' (a point I thought was pretty clear when I said I support Israel, but you missed it even though it was in the preceding sentence).
If that's your point, then I think you misread the article, seeing as it's Muslims at these rallies attacking innocent Jews (in France, the UK, elsewhere) because they associate all Jews with Israel.
So again, where are all these persecuted Muslims in America that are being attacked at pro-Israel rallies?
Giantsr01... I was referring to a larger scale than what's occurred over the last couple of weeks. I personally can't recall stumbling across an article of Muslims being attacked at pro-Israel rallies, so in that regard I do agree with you.
My point was more in reference to things like the protests surrounding a mosque being built in downtown Manhattan and situations like that which have transpired in otherwise liberal cities across America. Thus, I was saying that while there have been a few isolated incidences of bigotry, anti-semitism and of violence towards the Jews, since 9/11, this has been an issue for Muslims far more often. That is obviously not an excuse for these horrid events. Just a little perspective on an article that I think focuses on an issue that is a non-issue in comparison with the Hell that's currently happening along with the direct bigotry applied to the innocent on the other side of the coin.
And I once again hope my use of the word "innocent" Muslims and "innocent" Jews is recognized.
But if you're telling me that Muslims are persecuted just as much as Jews (or Christians, for that matter), sorry, I just don't buy it.
In the United States and Europe? Yes, I think the Muslims have a far harder time than Jews and certainly a harder time than Christians. The article is in reference to European protests.
In the Middle East? Obviously it's tremendously more difficult for the Jews.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: and I want to really underscore Â
Thus, I was saying that while there have been a few isolated incidences of bigotry, anti-semitism and of violence towards the Jews, since 9/11, this has been an issue for Muslims far more often.
you are a complete buffoon. there are 1.6 BILLION muslims in the world and about 14 MILLION Jews. if you perceive that Muslims suffer more persecution than Jews, then it's a matter of sheer volume, not proportions.
every now and then when you make a ludicrous statement, you should try backing off and admitting the mistake rather than digging your heels in and fighting the entire site when they tell you how dumb you are. this is another example. muslims suffer more persecution than Jews around the world? wow.
in some countries and in parts of others Muslims, especially recent immigrants, aren't necessarily as well-integrated and don't have the easiest time of it, but there is harassment, vandalism and violence against Jewish communities in Europe as well, sometimes by thugs in those Muslim communities and sometimes by the hard right that hates both Muslims and Jews but finds the Jews to be easier targets.
In The United States and Europe, especially the United States, I think there is far more tolerance towards Judaism than Islam. In the US I don't even think there is an argument in your favor, quite frankly.
And PS, I hate the word tolerance, but I can't think of a better one at the moment. No group of people should be "tolerated." They should just be people and that's it. But my point, hopefully, is clear.
The guy funded Black September and was Arafat's right-hand man. And throughout this whole ordeal, he's been dead silent. Yeah, he's a lesser of two evils, but how less is that evil?
But if you're telling me that Muslims are persecuted just as much as Jews (or Christians, for that matter), sorry, I just don't buy it.
In the United States and Europe? Yes, I think the Muslims have a far harder time than Jews and certainly a harder time than Christians. The article is in reference to European protests.
Wait, what?
Seth, I haven't made one post supporting either side... Â
...or point of view in this conflict, so asking me to refute your points seems pointless. My posts have been solely related to the propaganda side of the conflict, as evidenced by the little story in the OP in my opinion. And the notion that people agree 100% with the version being promoted by one side as some sort of coincidence, and not a result of said propaganda are the ones being naïve. I know enough to know I don't know enough about this conflict to comment, but I also know enough about the impact of PR on people's opinions and views to see it manifested liberally in this conversation.
M if talk radio and news are indicators on how the base of a political party feel trust me the support for israel is on the right the support for palestine is on the left.
well, there's your mistake, Joe. talk radio and news programs are absolutely NOT good indicators for how the base of a political party feels.
they're certainly a good indicator for how the media conglomerates want you to feel, though, so they can continue lining their pockets with the fruits of our disdain for each other.
are on your side in this issue, and that people whom you generally like or at least sympathize with are not. But over the last ten to fifteen years, maybe longer, that's pretty much been the breakdown. Some on the right support Israel because of the whole Messianic bit but for most it's just an extension of their wider views on defense and foreign policy.
Politics also plays a significant role in one’s views, according to the report: Seventy percent of conservative Republicans blame the conflict on Hamas, versus 6 percent who place the blame on Israel. Liberal Democrats, by contrast, are split, with 30 percent falling into each category.
The polling data suggests respondents from one party is strongly leaning towards one side, and respondents from another party are split or lean slightly towards the other side.
It's not some media conspiracy to demonize Democrats, and statements like "most support comes from the left" is worded in a way that suggests there's more agreement among liberals on the issue than there is (if one side is 70/6 and another is 30/30, then yes, technically most support comes from that other side despite the split opinion).
your point is never clear because you're a buffoon.
as Modus Operandi already suggested above, there's only ONE place on Earth where Muslims live free and flourish - the United States. that applies for Jews as well, of course. so there's no significant persecution against either group in the U.S. it's completely negligible.
but if you think Muslims are persecuted more in Europe than are Jews, then again, you are a buffoon. that statement is absurd on its face.
I don't much care for the guy either, but he's between a rock and a hard place.
Well, considering there's a so-called "unified" government, I would think Abbas would have some sway and influence over Hamas and the matters of the Gazans, though he's in the West Bank. Unfortunately, the only think he's done is offer a cease fire to Hamas, which they rejected.
Do you think it is completely out of bounds to say Muslim Americans face more scrutiny than American Jews?
I agree there is far more of a debate in Europe, but in the States, do you think the Jews are persecuted more than Muslims?
It was more regarding the European thing. Historically, it's not even close. Currently, again, it's not even close. How many more Muslims are there than Jews globally? You go to London and Paris and you'll feel like you're in Islamabad. And it's only growing. And yes, while the native population hasn't fully embraced the Muslim emigrants, this whole ordeal has rallied the Muslim emigrants and the European public under the banner of anti-Semitism and anti-Israel and they have united in a common cause.
RE: It's true that Palestine lives under a brutal occupation Â
But it's by Iran (and to a lesser extent Saudi Arabia) through its proxy Hamas, not Israel. Frankly, if the Palestinians were truly independent and negotiated in good faith, they'd get a far better deal from Israel than they would from anyone else in the ME.
What do you think this "better deal" would look like? The status quo serves Israel just fine. They don't want to give up the WB or any of Jerusalem to a would-be Palestine, but they also don't want to incorporate the territories into Israel because that would mean, if they want to remain a democracy, giving voting rights to millions of Muslims (which would of course make Knesset much browner...can't have that).
So instead they happily perpetuate this limbo that the territories remain in while feigning interest in a "peaceful resolution" because, and only because, America (even GOP'ers like Bush) continually pushes for it.
So you are wrong that there is some sweet deal in waiting if only Hamas would stop sandbagging its fellow Muslims to the Northeast. Israel doesn't have to do shit (because of its superior might) and doesn't want to. If you say "right on!", fair enough (and I'd agree when it comes to squishing Hamas). But call it what it is.
RE: It upsets you that people you otherwise dislike... Â
are on your side in this issue, and that people whom you generally like or at least sympathize with are not. But over the last ten to fifteen years, maybe longer, that's pretty much been the breakdown. Some on the right support Israel because of the whole Messianic bit but for most it's just an extension of their wider views on defense and foreign policy.
it doesn't upset me at all. it actually gives me hope that we can share some common ground. and i couldn't care less about the motivation. if you support Israel because you think Jesus is coming back, but only if the Jews live in Israel at the time, then I think you're out of your fucking mind, but I appreciate the support nonetheless.
as for political polls, they are extremely unreliable, owing to small sample sizes, dishonesty and bias-driven data collection among many other factors. there's a poll that can demonstrate pretty much any viewpoint that you want to demonstrate.
and even if the data are accurate, even if a greater segment of conservatives support Israel than liberals, that doesn't mean that the pro-Palestinian viewpoint or the anti-Israeli viewpoint is a "liberal" agenda. that's really what i was getting at: the phraseology used by the media to paint this as a left vs. right issue. they make more money if they are able to do that convincingly.
If that's the case, I think we're closer on this than I initially thought.
I've never been to Eastern Europe so I don't have a feel for the sentiment there. Perhaps I underestimate the Semitic culture in that region of the world.
My comment from last night was a bit sardonic. I almost always try to stay out of these discussions on here, regardless of my opinion.
Anyway, BillT's response kind of made my point. It seems that it has gotten to a point here where being Muslim has an initial stigma to it. Granted, that particular reply is an extreme instance, but there are plenty of examples of this prejudice. From newscasters or even people trying to be clever by asking "What religion was he?" when some sort of attack occurs, to shows like Homeland that propagate a stereotype about certain factions of a religion.
Now, most reasonable people will argue that "Well, obviously it's just a show," or "Well, I don't think that the person's religion is relevant at all." But the idea is that there is a subconscious bias based on religion, stemming mainly from the occurrences of 9/11, and subtly reinforced over the past 13 years.
What am I talking about exactly? Mark Cuban actually illustrated it pretty well a few months ago:
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"I know I'm prejudiced and I know I'm bigoted in a lot of different ways. If I see a black kid in a hoodie on my side of the street, I'll move to the other side of the street. If I see a white guy with a shaved head and tattoos, I'll move back to the other side of the street. None of us have pure thoughts; we all live in glass houses."
To use another, much more dated example, in Livy's "The Early History of Rome," basically the first historical text about Rome written by a Roman, he starts off by stating clearly that he "does not want to be biased." Yet throughout the text, the underlying theme is Romulus was the great brother, and Remus was the weaker, less-important sibling. Without directly saying it, he basically instills this thought in every reader's head, and paints a picture of Remus that has lasted over 2000 years, despite his "best efforts" to do the exact opposite.
There are extremist factions in every religion. However, it has gotten to a point that when most people here hear the word "Muslim," they essentially "move to the other side of the street." That's a major issue, and one that I don't think is fixable in the short-term, if ever. People need to be urged to use rational thought to get to that point. But I don't think you'll necessarily see an easily accessible article like this one, but in reference to Muslims and Palestine, to help pave the way for that. And even if there were, it wouldn't have the same effect as a visual of 9/11.
FEK - Muslims around the world aren't necessarily under the same scrutiny. The issue is in this country.
Seth - Do you mean something like the Arab Spring? Moreover, do you really believe that even if there were groups trying to, or actually demonstrating against those governments, that it would get any mainstream media attention prior to it reaching a critical mass?
As an outside observer to this - what exactly is the US Â
Gaining by providing Isreal with most of the arms in this conflict? If the state departments goal is to achieve a cease fire that seems like a strange move.
Germany, as of late, has been the most effective in curtailing Â
if the "Palestinians" don't want to be bombed anymore, maybe they should stop firing rockets at Israel, who has a much more powerful army?
just yesterday, an additional 141 rockets were fired at Israel. are those the actions of a rational state demonstrating its desire NOT to be bombed anymore? or are those the actions of a state that desires perpetual war? and are the "Palestinians" capable of flourishing in a state of perpetual war? because it sure as shit doesn't look like it.
if "Palestinians" don't want to be bombed anymore, where are the white flags? where are the peace negotiators looking to negotiate a permanent and lasting peace with Israel? because the current message being sent by Hamas is that the rocket fire won't stop until the blockade ends. well, sorry to say, but the blockade isn't going to end anytime soon because if it did, the "Palestinians" would use suicide bombers to attack civilians in Tel Aviv. round and round we go.
so let's review - you fire dozens or hundreds of rockets at us on a daily basis. we fire back with bigger rockets because we can, while also doing our best to protect innocent civilians. you don't give a shit about innocent civilians; instead you use them to place your troops and weapons strategically. but you don't want to be bombed anymore, right? so that suggests you should negotiate. but whoops, can't do that because you have completely unreasonable and unrealistic demands, up to and including the destruction of the state of Israel.
OK, guess we'll just keep bombing you, then.
or maybe it's just that "Palestinians" are incapable of losing a war with dignity, even if it means the deaths of their own children.
So with that in mind, please don't take this the wrong way:
Seth's point specifically applied to you, in my opinion. You seem to be an intelligent person who's thought these things through, but anyone should be able to see the differences between Israel and Hamas. As many articles posted here alluded to, if both sides had their way: Israel would want a two-state solution. Hamas would want Israel as a state wiped off the Earth.
So with that, I understand why people are short with you, and I totally agree with Seth's point. The fact that you are holding Israel primarily accountable is a disservice to the innocent people dying in Palestine.
Again, it is obvious that you are the type of person who would like nothing better than for peace to come to the region. But I think, and again, as respectfully as I can put it, your faith might be clouding your judgement.
I don't think it's even close in that case, either.
Why do leaders in muslim countries refuse infrastructure and wont allow the majority of the population to educate themselves. Do they hate the american way because it negates your last name and basis your success for the most part on your own free will. Why do billionaire sheiks buy airbuses to travel with and drink and party with prostitutes around the world while systematically making sure their population has none of the pleasures they enjoy on an hourly basis?
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In comment 11787884 Mike in Long Beach said:
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the word "innocent" muslims and am solely referring to the scrutiny they can receive from ignorant people, being associated with terrorism based on their religion.
Again.. all of Hamas deserves anything that happens to them and Israel has every right to be defending itself. I'm simply saying that the innocent Muslims around the world have a far harder time than the Jews.
Good point. There's lots of Muslims being attacked around the world at Pro-Israel rallies.
Not to mention all of those Christian fanatics running amok in the Middle East and elsewhere, burning down mosques, forcing Muslims to convert or die, kidnapping, killing. Someone should do something!
Klaatu, I guess you didn't read the article, huh. Because if you did, you'd know it was focused on people throughout Europe protesting Israel's actions and, in doing so, are being Semitic and violent towards Jews.
My point was that Muslims, here in America and everywhere else, get swooped in with those extremist qualities you just alluded to far more often than Jews are persecuted for Israel's actions... so again, please actually click the link so that you understand what a comment is referring to next time. I obviously am not equating the Jews' actions in this war to Hamas' (a point I thought was pretty clear when I said I support Israel, but you missed it even though it was in the preceding sentence).
My point was that Muslims, here in America and everywhere else, get swooped in with those extremist qualities you just alluded to far more often than Jews are persecuted for Israel's actions... so again, please actually click the link so that you understand what a comment is referring to next time. I obviously am not equating the Jews' actions in this war to Hamas' (a point I thought was pretty clear when I said I support Israel, but you missed it even though it was in the preceding sentence).
If that's your point, then I think you misread the article, seeing as it's Muslims at these rallies attacking innocent Jews (in France, the UK, elsewhere) because they associate all Jews with Israel.
So again, where are all these persecuted Muslims in America that are being attacked at pro-Israel rallies?
not only haven't they kicked them out, but they elected them to govern!
yup, totally Israel's fault.
Yet they support a country that will stone a women to death for cheating on her husband by getting gang raped? They dont allow women to drive, vote, educate themselves, or leave the house without a man to accompany them. Yeah thats who we should throw our support behind those guys.
A lot of democrats agree with conservative fiscal principles yet disagree with social principles of conservatives so they vote for democrats.
Yet they would disagree with social and fiscal principles of places like palestine yet they support them
There's only one I can think of.
so because you deem one person's view to be propaganda, that means Israel is winning the propaganda war? and the implication is that there are no Seth-like individuals on the other side of the debate who also spout propaganda?
dumbest shit i've ever read.
No, it is because the bulk of the support for Palestinians in America comes from American Muslims and from the hard left, in and out of the academy. That doesn't mean everyone on the left feels this way, even that many on the left do, or that there isn't still some anti-Semitism in pockets of the right, it's just the way it is.
I haven't read anything being said by one side. I am using history and common sense as a guide. Instead of saying I am spouting off the same things being said by Israel, how about responding to what I said with points that refute what I am saying? I don't live over there. I have no personal attachment. I just know antisemitism when i see it and hear it, and I also can see the trees from the forest on this issue. I am extremely confused how so many people do not.
M if talk radio and news are indicators on how the base of a political party feel trust me the support for israel is on the right the support for palestine is on the left.
go to a propalestine rally and find me one person who voted for Mitt Romney
It's not a creation of partisan media.
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My point was that Muslims, here in America and everywhere else, get swooped in with those extremist qualities you just alluded to far more often than Jews are persecuted for Israel's actions... so again, please actually click the link so that you understand what a comment is referring to next time. I obviously am not equating the Jews' actions in this war to Hamas' (a point I thought was pretty clear when I said I support Israel, but you missed it even though it was in the preceding sentence).
If that's your point, then I think you misread the article, seeing as it's Muslims at these rallies attacking innocent Jews (in France, the UK, elsewhere) because they associate all Jews with Israel.
So again, where are all these persecuted Muslims in America that are being attacked at pro-Israel rallies?
Giantsr01... I was referring to a larger scale than what's occurred over the last couple of weeks. I personally can't recall stumbling across an article of Muslims being attacked at pro-Israel rallies, so in that regard I do agree with you.
My point was more in reference to things like the protests surrounding a mosque being built in downtown Manhattan and situations like that which have transpired in otherwise liberal cities across America. Thus, I was saying that while there have been a few isolated incidences of bigotry, anti-semitism and of violence towards the Jews, since 9/11, this has been an issue for Muslims far more often. That is obviously not an excuse for these horrid events. Just a little perspective on an article that I think focuses on an issue that is a non-issue in comparison with the Hell that's currently happening along with the direct bigotry applied to the innocent on the other side of the coin.
And I once again hope my use of the word "innocent" Muslims and "innocent" Jews is recognized.
It's not a creation of partisan media.
LOL. the day anyone wins an argument with a Gallup poll is the day the internet collapses into itself and vanishes in a wink.
In the United States and Europe? Yes, I think the Muslims have a far harder time than Jews and certainly a harder time than Christians. The article is in reference to European protests.
In the Middle East? Obviously it's tremendously more difficult for the Jews.
you are a complete buffoon. there are 1.6 BILLION muslims in the world and about 14 MILLION Jews. if you perceive that Muslims suffer more persecution than Jews, then it's a matter of sheer volume, not proportions.
every now and then when you make a ludicrous statement, you should try backing off and admitting the mistake rather than digging your heels in and fighting the entire site when they tell you how dumb you are. this is another example. muslims suffer more persecution than Jews around the world? wow.
And PS, I hate the word tolerance, but I can't think of a better one at the moment. No group of people should be "tolerated." They should just be people and that's it. But my point, hopefully, is clear.
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But if you're telling me that Muslims are persecuted just as much as Jews (or Christians, for that matter), sorry, I just don't buy it.
In the United States and Europe? Yes, I think the Muslims have a far harder time than Jews and certainly a harder time than Christians. The article is in reference to European protests.
Wait, what?
well, there's your mistake, Joe. talk radio and news programs are absolutely NOT good indicators for how the base of a political party feels.
they're certainly a good indicator for how the media conglomerates want you to feel, though, so they can continue lining their pockets with the fruits of our disdain for each other.
Especially given the difference in population
The polling data suggests respondents from one party is strongly leaning towards one side, and respondents from another party are split or lean slightly towards the other side.
It's not some media conspiracy to demonize Democrats, and statements like "most support comes from the left" is worded in a way that suggests there's more agreement among liberals on the issue than there is (if one side is 70/6 and another is 30/30, then yes, technically most support comes from that other side despite the split opinion).
your point is never clear because you're a buffoon.
as Modus Operandi already suggested above, there's only ONE place on Earth where Muslims live free and flourish - the United States. that applies for Jews as well, of course. so there's no significant persecution against either group in the U.S. it's completely negligible.
but if you think Muslims are persecuted more in Europe than are Jews, then again, you are a buffoon. that statement is absurd on its face.
Well, considering there's a so-called "unified" government, I would think Abbas would have some sway and influence over Hamas and the matters of the Gazans, though he's in the West Bank. Unfortunately, the only think he's done is offer a cease fire to Hamas, which they rejected.
I agree there is far more of a debate in Europe, but in the States, do you think the Jews are persecuted more than Muslims?
I agree there is far more of a debate in Europe, but in the States, do you think the Jews are persecuted more than Muslims?
It was more regarding the European thing. Historically, it's not even close. Currently, again, it's not even close. How many more Muslims are there than Jews globally? You go to London and Paris and you'll feel like you're in Islamabad. And it's only growing. And yes, while the native population hasn't fully embraced the Muslim emigrants, this whole ordeal has rallied the Muslim emigrants and the European public under the banner of anti-Semitism and anti-Israel and they have united in a common cause.
What do you think this "better deal" would look like? The status quo serves Israel just fine. They don't want to give up the WB or any of Jerusalem to a would-be Palestine, but they also don't want to incorporate the territories into Israel because that would mean, if they want to remain a democracy, giving voting rights to millions of Muslims (which would of course make Knesset much browner...can't have that).
So instead they happily perpetuate this limbo that the territories remain in while feigning interest in a "peaceful resolution" because, and only because, America (even GOP'ers like Bush) continually pushes for it.
So you are wrong that there is some sweet deal in waiting if only Hamas would stop sandbagging its fellow Muslims to the Northeast. Israel doesn't have to do shit (because of its superior might) and doesn't want to. If you say "right on!", fair enough (and I'd agree when it comes to squishing Hamas). But call it what it is.
it doesn't upset me at all. it actually gives me hope that we can share some common ground. and i couldn't care less about the motivation. if you support Israel because you think Jesus is coming back, but only if the Jews live in Israel at the time, then I think you're out of your fucking mind, but I appreciate the support nonetheless.
as for political polls, they are extremely unreliable, owing to small sample sizes, dishonesty and bias-driven data collection among many other factors. there's a poll that can demonstrate pretty much any viewpoint that you want to demonstrate.
and even if the data are accurate, even if a greater segment of conservatives support Israel than liberals, that doesn't mean that the pro-Palestinian viewpoint or the anti-Israeli viewpoint is a "liberal" agenda. that's really what i was getting at: the phraseology used by the media to paint this as a left vs. right issue. they make more money if they are able to do that convincingly.
I've never been to Eastern Europe so I don't have a feel for the sentiment there. Perhaps I underestimate the Semitic culture in that region of the world.
Anyway, BillT's response kind of made my point. It seems that it has gotten to a point here where being Muslim has an initial stigma to it. Granted, that particular reply is an extreme instance, but there are plenty of examples of this prejudice. From newscasters or even people trying to be clever by asking "What religion was he?" when some sort of attack occurs, to shows like Homeland that propagate a stereotype about certain factions of a religion.
Now, most reasonable people will argue that "Well, obviously it's just a show," or "Well, I don't think that the person's religion is relevant at all." But the idea is that there is a subconscious bias based on religion, stemming mainly from the occurrences of 9/11, and subtly reinforced over the past 13 years.
What am I talking about exactly? Mark Cuban actually illustrated it pretty well a few months ago:
To use another, much more dated example, in Livy's "The Early History of Rome," basically the first historical text about Rome written by a Roman, he starts off by stating clearly that he "does not want to be biased." Yet throughout the text, the underlying theme is Romulus was the great brother, and Remus was the weaker, less-important sibling. Without directly saying it, he basically instills this thought in every reader's head, and paints a picture of Remus that has lasted over 2000 years, despite his "best efforts" to do the exact opposite.
There are extremist factions in every religion. However, it has gotten to a point that when most people here hear the word "Muslim," they essentially "move to the other side of the street." That's a major issue, and one that I don't think is fixable in the short-term, if ever. People need to be urged to use rational thought to get to that point. But I don't think you'll necessarily see an easily accessible article like this one, but in reference to Muslims and Palestine, to help pave the way for that. And even if there were, it wouldn't have the same effect as a visual of 9/11.
FEK - Muslims around the world aren't necessarily under the same scrutiny. The issue is in this country.
Seth - Do you mean something like the Arab Spring? Moreover, do you really believe that even if there were groups trying to, or actually demonstrating against those governments, that it would get any mainstream media attention prior to it reaching a critical mass?